/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/07/02/#ubuntu-uk.txt

=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan
=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan
=== zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan
popeymorning06:55
gebbioneanyone has an idea when ubuntu will be able to manage an iphone4?07:04
AlanBelldoes it not present itself as a disk?07:05
gebbionesure, how do i put music on it07:05
gebbionei tried gtkpod and other things but none work07:07
awilkinsBlame Apple for making their music storage scheme deliberately obfuscated ... I believe there are some applications which support updating the iTunes dB on the phone but I have no personal experience with them.07:07
gebbionethe thing is that all other devices can be synched with gtkpod but iphone4 or 4s07:09
AlanBellI guess this is all part of apple wanting you to buy into the whole lifestyle07:10
jussigebbione: and rhythm box doesnt do it?07:10
gebbionei have an apple and pc... i just want to manage it from this ubuntu machine though !!! GRRRR!07:10
popeygebbione, yeah, known issue.. http://www.libimobiledevice.org/ is the tool we use07:11
AlanBellGRR at Appple07:11
awilkinsYeah, they probably noticed that gtkpod worked on iPhone 1-3 and said "OOh, no, freedom from Apple software, can't have that.."07:11
gebbionepopey, that is the one that works underneeth gtkpod right?07:12
popeynot sure what gtkpod uses07:12
popeylibimobiledevice is what rb uses AIUI07:12
awilkinsI just buy music players from makers that "get it" like Samsung : nice audio quality and supports ogg (most of my music is ogg anyway)07:12
popeyinterestingly they recently did a recall of the old ipod nano which they claimed had battery issues. and replaced them with the new nano which requires itunes (the old one worked with RB)07:12
popeywhat's notable is that a number of people who got the recall notice had never plugged their nano into itunes..07:13
popeyawilkins, i dont think it's a case of samsung "getting" it at all.07:14
awilkinsJust "hey, free feature"?07:14
popeyjust that they happen to use a chip that supports those things07:16
awilkinsI've had iRiver players too07:16
gebbionebtw i have libimobiledevice installed07:16
gebbionei can see the iphone on rythmbox07:17
awilkinsWell, still have one07:17
gebbionenot edit though07:17
gebbionejussi, do you edit (upload & delete) your iphone music with rythmbox?07:19
jussigebbione: I dont do anything with my iphone because I thankfully dont own one of those rubbish things07:19
popeyjussi, useful input there07:20
popeyawilkins, i still have my iRiver iHP-140 next to my bed - I use it most nights :)07:21
jussipopey: I answered the question directly.07:21
awilkinsiRiver T20 is my workout player - shame it's only 1GB. AAA battery, plays ogg, no stupid protocols, good sound quality.07:22
jzenhi I screwed up my display manager, I think, Im in a liveCD now, can someone help?07:23
awilkinsIsn't that one of thos "Delete your .XAuthority file" problems?07:25
jzen?07:26
gigixjzen, what did you do before "screwing up" your DM ?07:28
jzengigix: purge then (re)install gdm, selected lightdm per 'newrez's (a xrandr scaling script/app) instructions07:29
gigixjzen, what did you try to do ? any reason you wanted gdm over lightdm ?07:33
jzengigix: my laptops limited to 1280X768 resolution, so I was trying to use newrez, an xrandr app/script to scale down from a higher virtual resolution07:35
jzengigix: the install of gdm was a little rough and I had to force dpkg to overwrite some files when apt-get complained07:37
gigixok, maybe i'd try to switch back to lightdm first ?07:39
awilkins>-<  There's a reason package managers comprise a massive database of what's compatible with other things.07:39
gigixwith a "sudo dpkg-reconfigure lightdm"07:39
jzengigix: unless theres an easy way to run that from the liveCD, i will be rebooting while crossing fingers.07:42
jzenawilkins: copy&paste it for me next time, I'm living on the edge- paper cuts and all.07:44
jzenthanks guys, wish me luck.07:44
gigixjzen, I am not sure you can chroot your environment to do this or if you need to boot in rescue mode07:44
gigixI would start booting in rescue mode07:45
gigixyou just need the command line for that anyway07:45
jzenok. thanx. *poof*07:46
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
bigcalmGood Monday morning peeps :)08:17
dwatkinshiya08:20
bigcalmWhat's the difference between a VM and a VPS?08:25
JoeboyI guess a VPS is a VM that you rent from somebody else08:26
Joeboyfor use as a server08:26
bigcalmI have a VM with Bytemark. Whom I pay monthly for08:26
MartijnVdSMe too!08:26
bigcalmSo is that a VPS?08:26
MartijnVdSit is08:27
MartijnVdSvirtual machine / virtual private server08:27
bigcalmI see08:27
MartijnVdSprivate as in "not shared" -- you're root on your vm08:27
bigcalmDoes it sound cooler to say you have a VPS rather than a VM?08:27
KrimZon_2VPS is a full TLA08:27
bigcalmHeh, there is that08:28
bigcalmVM is also a TLA ;)08:28
KrimZon_2I didn't think of that08:28
bigcalmJust a different value of T08:28
KrimZon_2VPS is a TLA, but VM is only a TLA08:28
JoeboyVPS is more specific than VM08:30
Joeboya VM might just be a Windows VM you're using on your desktop to run photoshop08:30
Joeboywhich would not be a VPS08:30
diploMorning all08:33
KrimZon_2VPS is a TLA where TLA is a TLA, but VM is a TLA where TLA is not a TLA08:39
JamesTaitGood morning all! :-D08:42
JoeboyMorning JamesTait08:48
diploAnyone here use Geany on a day to day basis ?09:06
gordi have done in the past09:11
diploJust wondering whether anyone uses the vcs plugin09:12
diploDoesn't seem to work how I would expect, just wondering what others recommend..09:12
diploWhat do you use gord  ? If you don't mind me asking.. all cli ?09:12
gordi use vim09:13
gordhave been thinking about trying out sublime lately though09:14
diploheh, I knew that was coming. I do for a lot of things but don't seem to use it that well in big projects09:14
diployeah just grabbed that myself09:14
diploAlso Komodo Edit09:14
diploand a few others09:14
gordtbh i wouldn't recommend geany over simple file editing09:16
diploI think I've seen davmor mention it a few times so was going to give it a go09:16
gordKomodo is the best python editor i ever used, not the free version, the paid for version09:17
gordthe free was kind of weak, but i haven't tried either in 3+ years09:17
diploNever bothered with the paid, but I only used to use it for php which was fine09:17
diploI do like it09:17
diploThing I miss from Netbeans is projects09:18
diploBut it's too much of a hog for this machine09:18
gordi've never actually had an IDE handle projects nicely, always ended up having to not use them09:20
gordeither they want to use their own build system, completely not working with your build system, or they have a crappy import system that means you can't create lots of branches09:20
diploWill give Netbeans another go today09:23
diploThen Komodo this afternoon09:23
brobostigongood morning everyone.09:53
gigixmorning09:54
brobostigonmorning gigix09:56
davmor2morning all10:04
dogmatic69o/10:04
=== Killerjim is now known as KillerJim
davmor2bigcalm: did you get the update to ics yet?10:26
* AlanBell upgraded to cyanogenmod 910:37
* dwatkins waits patiently for CM9 to be supported on the HTC Desire HD10:37
* gord is still using android 2.110:37
* diplo eagerly awaits getting a phone that he can afford that could actually run a newer release10:38
diplo:)10:38
ali1234i like how you can unlock directly to camera10:38
* davmor2 is still on 2.2 and will never be able to update till there is a phone upgrade in my life10:38
ali1234i don't like the default calendar and email widgets though10:38
ali1234they should be 4 wide10:38
directhexanything other than android 2.3 is a statistical anomaly10:38
directhexand that's straight from the horse's mouth. ICS accounts for 7% of android. http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html10:40
MyrttiGalaxy Nexus ♥10:41
ali1234that's still probably more than the total sales of WP710:41
directhexyes.10:41
directhexbut, e.g., nokia make more money from ios patent licenses than from lumia sales10:42
diploI'd like to tinker with a WP7 device, don't know anyone local to me that has one though10:45
diplo:/10:45
davmor2directhex: yeah that's the problem everyone is suing everyone rather than just making the best devices they can, cause they get more money that way10:45
directhexdavmor2, http://dilbert.com/2012-06-30/10:46
diploAre you still liking your WP7 phone directhex ?10:49
directhexdiplo, yeah. very cross about the WP7.8/WP8 situation, but it's still much nicer than android10:49
diployeah read about that the other day, that really does suck10:50
davmor2directhex: indeed10:50
* czajkowski hugs christel 11:35
* christel hugs czajkowski 11:36
* davmor2 blows raspberries at czajkowski and waves hello to christel 11:37
christelhehe11:38
christelheya davmor2 :)11:38
* AlanBell wonders if christel will pop by on her tour of farnham11:38
christelooh i might very well do!11:38
christelgive me your address11:38
christel(for the office)11:38
AlanBellLibertus Solutions, suite 3 the Granary, Hones yard11:38
christelwe have viewings at 1, 2 and 3 (last one is in farnham, riverside) however i suspect they'll only take like 15mins each :)11:38
AlanBellbehind the sugarcraft place next to the station11:38
christelawesome! i shall pop in before or after viewing riverside! possibly after, i'll bring cake!11:39
christel<311:39
AlanBellgosh :)11:39
davmor2czajkowski: where up are you with the sun?11:39
* AlanBell 3> cake11:39
AlanBellum, that failed11:40
AlanBell<311:40
diplochristel: Tap fixed?11:45
czajkowskidavmor2: London11:50
davmor2czajkowski: that's not up11:50
czajkowskiit's up from where popey is11:51
davmor2czajkowski: that's down and across :P11:51
* czajkowski peers at davmor2 11:51
* bigcalm returns11:57
bigcalmSouth is down11:58
bigcalmI don't like the noise my Proliant is making :(12:00
bigcalmSounds like a fan is off balance or something12:00
davmor2bigcalm: only on boot up though right? I don't here my fan the rest of the time12:04
bigcalmdavmor2: this is all the time. It's hard to describe. I'll try and record it12:04
gordmy fan was making a weird noise this morning, turns out a cable was caught in it, another technical computer problem successfully solved by gord!12:05
diploReally must check mine out, not seen or heard from it for like 4 months12:07
diploIts in the kids play room, always forget to check whether the kids have poked things through the fans etc12:08
diplo:)12:08
dwatkinsget them a Raspberry Pi so there are no moving parts, diplo ;)12:25
diploheh, it's my fileserver.. their play room used to be my office12:26
diploOnly thing I haven't moved out of there is my server12:26
bigcalmWhat's this noise coming from my Proliant? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1151681/Voice%20004.3ga12:29
dogmatic69bigcalm: the rattle?12:30
bigcalmdogmatic69: yes12:30
dogmatic69sounds like a fan on the way out12:30
bigcalmNot had the box for long. Don't really want to send it back to HP for fixing12:31
dogmatic69Tell them to send out a tech guy. if it is a fan they should be hot swappable12:31
bigcalmUg12:32
diploUnplug the fan if not CPU and see if it's defo that12:32
bigcalmThe only fan is the case fan :)12:33
dogmatic69bigcalm: what proliant is it?12:33
bigcalmdogmatic69: 401 I think12:35
bigcalmCannie remember now :D12:35
dogmatic69but a blade right?12:36
bigcalmI honestly can't remember the model. It's: https://twitter.com/bigcalm/status/21972159576001740812:40
bigcalmMaybe N40L12:40
Dave2bigcalm: liar12:40
Dave2case fan and PSU fan12:40
bigcalmDave2: no CPU fan is what I meant12:41
bigcalmDave2: only seen one fan so far, shows how much I've poked it12:41
dogmatic69bigcalm: ah ok, did not know those existed. just stick your finger in the fan and see if the noise stops12:42
bigcalmHaha12:42
bigcalmdogmatic69: I may laugh, but I had considered it12:42
diplobigcalm: It's ok to do that for a short few secs :)12:43
dogmatic69put it in the middle, hurts less :D12:43
bigcalm;)12:43
diploI've done it many a time to see if its the fan12:43
dogmatic69ye, it will draw loads of current if done for too long12:43
bigcalmCan't really get to any of the fans12:45
Dave2You can get to the fans pretty easily, you just need to take stuff out12:50
Dave2Well12:50
Dave2To the main fan12:50
bigcalmDave2: if I take stuff out, it won't be switched on12:50
Dave2pft12:50
bigcalmThe point is to find the source of noise while it's running12:51
dogmatic69bigcalm: just use a pencil or similar12:51
bigcalmdiplo: was it you who has CM on a Wildfire?12:56
diploYep12:58
bigcalmdiplo: great. How did you root the phone?12:58
diploDidn't upgrade at the weekend, been in agony since Thursday :/12:58
diploWith a fair bit of work I'm afraid12:58
bigcalmThat's what I'm finding12:59
diploSo the biggest issue was the hboot12:59
diploFrom memory, I had v1.2, and to root I needed 1.112:59
diploSo I had to downgrade the hboot12:59
diploIs that your issue ?12:59
bigcalmI'm not sure, but that might be something for me to look at12:59
diploI can see if I can find the tutorial I followed ?13:00
bigcalmThanks13:00
diplohttp://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=114503513:01
diploLooks like the one13:01
bigcalmGrumble. All done via Windows?13:01
diploI may have done actually yeah, was dual booting my home laptop at the time13:02
bigcalmFair enough13:02
diplothe bat files aren't doing anything special from memory13:02
diploCan probably work around it13:02
diploDo you have a windows PC at home?13:03
bigcalmYay, HBOOT is already HBOOT-1.01.0001 on Hayley's phone13:03
diploThat makes life A LOT easier :)13:03
bigcalmHayley's is windows. Could hijack that I guess13:03
diploThat was my biggest issue tbh, getting a solution that actually worked13:03
bigcalmI tried revolutionary, but it just sat there waiting to see a device13:04
bigcalmRevoke3 saw the device and did a lot until it complained about the firmware being too new13:04
bigcalmBut I think I'll have enough here to get it working tonight13:05
bigcalmThanks diplo :)13:05
diploWell should be online later, not sure how much help I will be bt more than willing to give it a go13:06
diploMight upgrade mine tonight actually13:07
bigcalm:)13:07
davmor2bigcalm: that sounds to me like the fan isn't slowing down13:09
bigcalmEh?13:09
diploSounds like dodgey bearings to me13:10
davmor2bigcalm: sorry playing catchup from earlier lunch and all that :P13:10
davmor2bigcalm: What I'm saying is it sounds like your fan is going full pelt are you doing something like raid work or something that would be cpu/hd heavy load that might explain the upped fan speed13:11
bigcalmdavmor2: I have RAID1 on the 1st two drives. But not doing anything intensive as far as I know13:13
* bigcalm fires of s05e07 - slowly catching up13:18
gordstill no planes on popey cam :(13:29
davmor2gord: clouds in the way13:31
bigcalmThe time lapse is cool13:32
gorddavmor2: i was *promised* blames13:32
gordplanes13:32
gordbut i blames popey13:32
davmor2gord: no I think you were right the first time, look at how much popey has allowed you to blame :D13:33
popeyA PLANE!13:51
gordlies!13:51
diplodavmor2: I have the film if you want to watch it :)14:04
diploHaven't brought myself to watch it yet mind :)14:05
diplohttp://www.rt.com/news/iran-bill-hormuz-strait-218/14:34
diploooer14:34
* diplo digs push bike out ready for the fuel price rises again :(14:35
diploAnd waterproofs14:35
* bigcalm tickles popey14:42
ubuntuuk-planet[Jonathan Riddell] Akademy 2012 in Pictures - http://blogs.kde.org/node/458314:43
bigcalmWho here is fabulous with Doctine? :)14:47
diploPHP libraries ?14:50
* bigcalm moves on to s05e0814:50
bigcalmdiplo: indeed14:50
bigcalmIt's one of the 2 popular ORMs that Symfony can use14:51
diploNope, afraid not.. just wanted to confirm14:51
bigcalmI want to turn a SQL query into a proper Doctrine statement :)14:51
diploHaving issues ?14:51
bigcalmI can safely paste this without braking any NDAs14:52
bigcalmSELECT api.name, source.name, source.country_code FROM source JOIN api ON source.api_id = api.id WHERE api.is_active = 1 AND source.is_active = 1;14:52
diploWell it's not very revealing :)14:54
diplojust looking at their site now14:54
bigcalmMe too14:54
bigcalmOh, it's also Doctrine 1.2 not 214:54
bigcalmOr is it14:55
* bigcalm scratches his head14:55
bigcalm2.114:55
bigcalmSilly me14:55
Songtaohi guys, I m stuck now14:55
Bollingerwhen looking at the output of top on the Mem line reads Mem: 8G  total, 5.6G used 2.5G free 316M buffers Yet when I add up all the memory used in the RES column it is no where near 5.6G what am I missing?14:55
SongtaoI untar an existing system to a new drive, and changed uuid in /etc/fstab file, now the system won't boot up14:56
diploBollinger: should be a cached field as well14:56
diploLinux gobbles up all the memory and frees it if something else requires it14:57
dogmatic69Bollinger: 'free memory' is wasted memory14:58
diplohttp://www.linuxatemyram.com/14:58
diplo:)14:58
Bollingerdiplo, ahh!  many thanks ;-)14:58
diploMuch better than I can explain it14:58
Bollingerah so 4.8G cache is where all my memory went. I was thinking I needed to buy some more RAM.14:59
dogmatic69Bollinger: exactly :)14:59
dogmatic69its like windows prefetch, except it works15:00
AlanBellbuzz15:07
bigcalmBusy bee?15:07
davmor2AlanBell: you don't want to keep touching that cable if it's making buzzing noises, it'll likely go bang! next if you do :D15:09
* bigcalm points popey to the correct email address :P15:13
popey:D15:13
* popey edits his address book15:13
popeythat sounds so retro15:13
bigcalmDoesn't it just?15:13
gordi don't think anyone has ever managed to send me an email, without sending it to gordallot first15:15
* AlanBell has a christel here15:24
AlanBelland cake15:24
bigcalmCAKE!15:24
* Seeker` imagines popey running around with his arms out like wings15:27
popeyyes15:27
matttspeaking of buzzing noises15:34
* mattt zzZzzZzZz15:34
davmor2AlanBell: no fair I want a Cakestel15:36
davmor2popey: but you are retro by the way Crocket says can he have his shirt back the bad weather is hitting miami soon ;)15:38
popeyi think davmor2 is stuck in the 1980's15:39
popeynot just music, but TV too!15:39
bigcalmI fully agree15:40
davmor2popey: No tv I watch all sorts, music too, I just prefer the 80's music.  But there is a new Miami Vice so :P15:41
davmor2popey: admittedly I've never seen it :D15:41
davmor2but I know of it15:41
=== KillerJim is now known as KillerJim|Away
bigcalmCar parked over the road has a number plate ending in NTL. That made me do a double take. They have scared me for life15:54
davmor2bigcalm: so after a weekend of using my super hub in modem only mode I have to report it hasn't dropped once, it's not been perfect either but it has at least been up hurah :)15:58
bigcalm\o/16:00
davmor2bigcalm: also I managed to watch the Google keynote, and it was said that jellybean would be rolled out to the xoom in mid-july, I will of course only believe this when it happens16:00
bigcalmdavmor2: to the US maybe16:00
bigcalmdavmor2: they have had ICS for some time now16:00
davmor2bigcalm: there were talking about the fact that it was world wide and when could the world get it so we will see, but I'm with you, expect it in the uk when 6.4 is released in the US :)16:01
bigcalm:)16:01
bigcalmdavmor2: Have you checked your Xoom today?16:02
davmor2bigcalm: nope16:02
bigcalmMe neither16:02
bigcalmSilly work getting in the way16:02
AzelphurAnyone clever care to help me with wine? I'm getting X Error when I try and start anything under wine. #winehq said it's because my libgl 32 version is not the same as my kernel module version, don't know how to check or fix :(16:03
davmor2bigcalm: indeed I'm sure work is there only to replace fun :D16:04
davmor2bigcalm: that or it's there to make you appreciate the fun all the more16:05
davmor2czajkowski: Prod16:05
bigcalmdavmor2: possibly the latter16:05
davmor2bigcalm: see I really appreciated that16:05
czajkowskidavmor2: lo16:06
davmor2czajkowski: sorry I was just appreciating fun :)16:07
bigcalmHeh16:07
davmor2czajkowski: Wanna Cookie?16:21
christelAlanBell: thank you for le coffee! <316:22
davmor2christel: You can't show that kinda favouritism I think we should all have Cakestel visit ;)16:23
christelhehe16:29
bigcalmI need a tea fairy16:31
Myrttihmmm16:31
Myrttivery offtopic but relevant to uk16:31
bigcalmTea?16:32
davmor2bigcalm: hahaha16:32
MyrttiI was going to ask if people have any experience on prepaid credit cards and if they could recommend one16:32
bigcalmNot I16:32
davmor2Myrtti: The virgin money one is meant to be good16:32
dogmatic69Myrtti: pre-paid sort of goes against the idea of credit?16:33
davmor2Myrtti: we have one but it is my wifes from unison which you wouldn't be able to get I guess.16:33
davmor2Myrtti: most just topup at paypoints or payzones and then you use as normal16:34
Myrttidogmatic69: pedantics aside, it's a great way of giving money, or using it to do internet purchases from places you'd not want to risk your own card for16:34
dogmatic69I see16:34
Myrttior in my case, getting *free* as in beer but not free as in speech books from Google Play bookstore, which for some stupid reason require a UK credit card even if the book is gratis16:34
dogmatic69I had something like that, but for travel.. they dont do 'travellers cheques' much more16:35
dogmatic69Myrtti: you in the UK right?16:36
Myrttiin USA they're quite common, in Finland unheard of16:37
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
AlanBellchristel: thank you for the yummy cake :)17:18
christel:D17:19
davmor2AlanBell: you rub in the Cakestel visit again and I'll cry17:20
AlanBelldavmor2: it was an exceptionally good cake17:20
davmor2:'(17:21
* AlanBell hugs davmor2 17:21
* AlanBell looks forward to Beer traing and BBQ this month17:22
matttAlanBell: what day's your bbq again ?17:27
bigcalm2 weekend after the RAT17:28
* kvarley is puzzled at hardware17:29
kvarleyJust been told that I can plug in a 20pin picoPSU into a 24pin motherboard and it will work so long as the additional 4pin 12v connector is plugged in.17:29
matttbigcalm: ah, thought i missed it17:29
AlanBellmattt: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1824/detail/17:31
matttAlanBell: thanks, just registered as a maybe17:36
AlanBellyay17:37
* TheOpenSourcerer hopes AlanBell didn't eat all of christel 's yummy cake...17:57
MyrttiEAT ALL THE CAKE18:00
davmor2AlanBell: what do you mean.....What cake18:02
christelTheOpenSourcerer: i have left you a slice on your desk! ;)18:11
christelunless AlanBell ate it when i left!18:11
TheOpenSourcererOooh - Thanks christel :-D18:11
TheOpenSourcererI haz cake18:12
TheOpenSourcererIn the morning.18:12
christel:D18:12
davmor2TheOpenSourcerer: keep it covered or the mice will have it18:14
TheOpenSourcererNo mice in our office. Far to clean and neat.18:14
davmor2TheOpenSourcerer: wow yo move the cursor with your mind :D18:15
TheOpenSourcererhuh?18:16
davmor2TheOpenSourcerer: you don't use a mouse to move the cursor on your screen as you have no mice so you must use your mind right?18:17
TheOpenSourcererAhh. Twas a bit slow there.18:18
Myrttioh right, Olympic Games have an official camera. I wonder do they smack you with a inflatable Coca-Cola bottle if you try to take photos of the Marathon with a Nikon or Canon18:49
popeyyou can't pay for tickets with anything other than sponsor credit card, visa :(18:51
Azelphur:(18:56
diploevenin all19:01
ali1234could someone read this up to end of part 4 and tell me if it makes sense: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UEFI19:14
diploSeems to make sense from as much as I understand19:18
ali1234do you understand why i think it's not useful?19:18
diploYep, it's basically not as secure as it's set out to be because you can run either Aroot or Broot against each other with the cross certs ?19:19
diploWhether I typed that correctly, I understand what you are getting at19:20
ali1234i know, it's hard to explain19:20
diploI understand, so if I do, people who want to know about this should :D19:20
ali1234it gets trickier if you also do sub certificates on both sides, but i don't think it affects things at all19:20
ali1234in the end if you use a cross certificate you might as well just include the certificate you are making a cross for, and it makes no difference in the end19:21
ali1234and given that it doesn't even work i don't want to go down the path of covering/explaining that in detail19:21
diploSpoke to Matthew Garrett at all ?19:21
ali1234yeah19:21
ali1234unfortunately he's about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard19:22
diplo:)19:22
ali1234i guess he's got better things to do than explain this to every noob out there19:22
ali1234which is why i'm trying to do it19:22
diploI watched a vid of him presenting19:22
diploSeems like he knows his stuff but also may be a bit hard to talk to the way he answered some questions19:23
diploThat was initial thought from me anyhoo19:23
ali1234so at the moment i'm leaning towards the following conclusions:19:24
ali12341. fedora's plan is the only workable one19:24
ali12342. ubuntu's plan is fatally flawed and won't be allowed by microsoft19:24
ali12343. if you want to customize the kernel or modules *at all* then nothing done by ubuntu or fedora will help you at all, you must do everything yourself or turn off secure boot19:25
diploI still can't believe that Microsoft are allow to control this, you would have thought EU would have waded in and said this should be run by a foundation or something of that ilk, and not a corporation19:25
ali1234and by "workable" i mean it's the only way to get any software to run on a windows 8 machine without doing anything in the bios19:26
AlanBellali1234: I will have a read19:26
ali1234none of this at all will be of any use to anyone who s willing to change bios settings19:26
ali1234anyway i'm going to cover all that in the next part19:26
ali1234This part 4 might not actually even be worth posting19:30
AlanBellI think the whole concept is flawed really, as you can boot stuff and then launch a virtual machine and continue booting other stuff in the VM without it knowing19:34
ali1234no, that's not true19:36
AlanBellthe Canonical approach is to have a really thin bootloader that loads unsigned code really quickly19:36
ali1234it's very easy to detect virtualized environments on x8619:36
ali1234yes, and the canonical approach won't be allowed by microsoft19:37
AlanBellbut a thicker bootloader would take longer until it will run unsigned code, but they all will do19:37
AlanBelljust in userspace19:37
ali1234if microsoft ever signs anything that can run anything that can load unsigned kernel code, then the whole house of cards collapses19:37
ali1234and the system described by canonical is an example of a system that does exactly that19:38
ali1234that also includes exploits as well of course19:40
ali1234if you have the microsoft key enrolled, you are not secure if any exploit is found in any signed bootloader, kernel, or module19:41
ali1234for any OS19:41
ali1234which is a lot of OSes19:41
ali1234well, any signed-by-microsoft OS19:41
ali1234but we can still assume that will cover quite a few19:41
ali1234since there will be loads of exploits, there will need be many CRL updates19:43
TheOpenSourcererhttps://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web19:49
ali1234TheOpenSourcerer: "Because these operating systems do not have keys stored in every computer's firmware by default like Microsoft does, users will have to disable Secure Boot before booting the new system's installer." - not true19:51
ali1234what they say about GRUB2 is spot on though19:54
ali1234you know, it's never actually necessary to "disable security" or anything like that19:55
ali1234if you are sitting in front of the machine you can always override it19:55
ali1234that's what the certification says19:55
ali1234even on arm it is possible to disable the secure boot per the spec19:55
ali1234if you have the platform key you can do anything you want through a signed update19:56
ali1234i think there interpretation of the fedora plan is also incorrect20:03
ali1234you know, i don't think there's anything in the UEFI spec to prevent a boot device having two bootloader binaries installed20:05
ali1234if the first one fails to authenticate the second one would run20:05
ali1234so an install cd could try the ubuntu signed bootloader, and if that fails, try the microsoft one20:05
ali1234hmm maybe not20:11
ubuntuuk-planet[Tony] But which one is the straight man? - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/07/02/but-which-one-is-the-straight-man/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=but-which-one-is-the-straight-man21:13
popeyhaha21:15
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away

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