[06:55] <popey> morning
[07:04] <gebbione> anyone has an idea when ubuntu will be able to manage an iphone4?
[07:05] <AlanBell> does it not present itself as a disk?
[07:05] <gebbione> sure, how do i put music on it
[07:07] <gebbione> i tried gtkpod and other things but none work
[07:07] <awilkins> Blame Apple for making their music storage scheme deliberately obfuscated ... I believe there are some applications which support updating the iTunes dB on the phone but I have no personal experience with them.
[07:09] <gebbione> the thing is that all other devices can be synched with gtkpod but iphone4 or 4s
[07:10] <AlanBell> I guess this is all part of apple wanting you to buy into the whole lifestyle
[07:10] <jussi> gebbione: and rhythm box doesnt do it?
[07:10] <gebbione> i have an apple and pc... i just want to manage it from this ubuntu machine though !!! GRRRR!
[07:11] <popey> gebbione, yeah, known issue.. http://www.libimobiledevice.org/ is the tool we use
[07:11] <AlanBell> GRR at Appple
[07:11] <awilkins> Yeah, they probably noticed that gtkpod worked on iPhone 1-3 and said "OOh, no, freedom from Apple software, can't have that.."
[07:12] <gebbione> popey, that is the one that works underneeth gtkpod right?
[07:12] <popey> not sure what gtkpod uses
[07:12] <popey> libimobiledevice is what rb uses AIUI
[07:12] <awilkins> I just buy music players from makers that "get it" like Samsung : nice audio quality and supports ogg (most of my music is ogg anyway)
[07:12] <popey> interestingly they recently did a recall of the old ipod nano which they claimed had battery issues. and replaced them with the new nano which requires itunes (the old one worked with RB)
[07:13] <popey> what's notable is that a number of people who got the recall notice had never plugged their nano into itunes..
[07:14] <popey> awilkins, i dont think it's a case of samsung "getting" it at all.
[07:14] <awilkins> Just "hey, free feature"?
[07:16] <popey> just that they happen to use a chip that supports those things
[07:16] <awilkins> I've had iRiver players too
[07:16] <gebbione> btw i have libimobiledevice installed
[07:17] <gebbione> i can see the iphone on rythmbox
[07:17] <awilkins> Well, still have one
[07:17] <gebbione> not edit though
[07:19] <gebbione> jussi, do you edit (upload & delete) your iphone music with rythmbox?
[07:19] <jussi> gebbione: I dont do anything with my iphone because I thankfully dont own one of those rubbish things
[07:20] <popey> jussi, useful input there
[07:21] <popey> awilkins, i still have my iRiver iHP-140 next to my bed - I use it most nights :)
[07:21] <jussi> popey: I answered the question directly.
[07:22] <awilkins> iRiver T20 is my workout player - shame it's only 1GB. AAA battery, plays ogg, no stupid protocols, good sound quality.
[07:23] <jzen> hi I screwed up my display manager, I think, Im in a liveCD now, can someone help?
[07:25] <awilkins> Isn't that one of thos "Delete your .XAuthority file" problems?
[07:26] <jzen> ?
[07:28] <gigix> jzen, what did you do before "screwing up" your DM ?
[07:29] <jzen> gigix: purge then (re)install gdm, selected lightdm per 'newrez's (a xrandr scaling script/app) instructions
[07:33] <gigix> jzen, what did you try to do ? any reason you wanted gdm over lightdm ?
[07:35] <jzen> gigix: my laptops limited to 1280X768 resolution, so I was trying to use newrez, an xrandr app/script to scale down from a higher virtual resolution
[07:37] <jzen> gigix: the install of gdm was a little rough and I had to force dpkg to overwrite some files when apt-get complained
[07:39] <gigix> ok, maybe i'd try to switch back to lightdm first ?
[07:39] <awilkins> >-<  There's a reason package managers comprise a massive database of what's compatible with other things.
[07:39] <gigix> with a "sudo dpkg-reconfigure lightdm"
[07:42] <jzen> gigix: unless theres an easy way to run that from the liveCD, i will be rebooting while crossing fingers.
[07:44] <jzen> awilkins: copy&paste it for me next time, I'm living on the edge- paper cuts and all.
[07:44] <jzen> thanks guys, wish me luck.
[07:44] <gigix> jzen, I am not sure you can chroot your environment to do this or if you need to boot in rescue mode
[07:45] <gigix> I would start booting in rescue mode
[07:45] <gigix> you just need the command line for that anyway
[07:46] <jzen> ok. thanx. *poof*
[08:17] <bigcalm> Good Monday morning peeps :)
[08:20] <dwatkins> hiya
[08:25] <bigcalm> What's the difference between a VM and a VPS?
[08:26] <Joeboy> I guess a VPS is a VM that you rent from somebody else
[08:26] <Joeboy> for use as a server
[08:26] <bigcalm> I have a VM with Bytemark. Whom I pay monthly for
[08:26] <MartijnVdS> Me too!
[08:26] <bigcalm> So is that a VPS?
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> it is
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> virtual machine / virtual private server
[08:27] <bigcalm> I see
[08:27] <MartijnVdS> private as in "not shared" -- you're root on your vm
[08:27] <bigcalm> Does it sound cooler to say you have a VPS rather than a VM?
[08:27] <KrimZon_2> VPS is a full TLA
[08:28] <bigcalm> Heh, there is that
[08:28] <bigcalm> VM is also a TLA ;)
[08:28] <KrimZon_2> I didn't think of that
[08:28] <bigcalm> Just a different value of T
[08:28] <KrimZon_2> VPS is a TLA, but VM is only a TLA
[08:30] <Joeboy> VPS is more specific than VM
[08:30] <Joeboy> a VM might just be a Windows VM you're using on your desktop to run photoshop
[08:30] <Joeboy> which would not be a VPS
[08:33] <diplo> Morning all
[08:39] <KrimZon_2> VPS is a TLA where TLA is a TLA, but VM is a TLA where TLA is not a TLA
[08:42] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :-D
[08:48] <Joeboy> Morning JamesTait
[09:06] <diplo> Anyone here use Geany on a day to day basis ?
[09:11] <gord> i have done in the past
[09:12] <diplo> Just wondering whether anyone uses the vcs plugin
[09:12] <diplo> Doesn't seem to work how I would expect, just wondering what others recommend..
[09:12] <diplo> What do you use gord  ? If you don't mind me asking.. all cli ?
[09:13] <gord> i use vim
[09:14] <gord> have been thinking about trying out sublime lately though
[09:14] <diplo> heh, I knew that was coming. I do for a lot of things but don't seem to use it that well in big projects
[09:14] <diplo> yeah just grabbed that myself
[09:14] <diplo> Also Komodo Edit
[09:14] <diplo> and a few others
[09:16] <gord> tbh i wouldn't recommend geany over simple file editing
[09:16] <diplo> I think I've seen davmor mention it a few times so was going to give it a go
[09:17] <gord> Komodo is the best python editor i ever used, not the free version, the paid for version
[09:17] <gord> the free was kind of weak, but i haven't tried either in 3+ years
[09:17] <diplo> Never bothered with the paid, but I only used to use it for php which was fine
[09:17] <diplo> I do like it
[09:18] <diplo> Thing I miss from Netbeans is projects
[09:18] <diplo> But it's too much of a hog for this machine
[09:20] <gord> i've never actually had an IDE handle projects nicely, always ended up having to not use them
[09:20] <gord> either they want to use their own build system, completely not working with your build system, or they have a crappy import system that means you can't create lots of branches
[09:23] <diplo> Will give Netbeans another go today
[09:23] <diplo> Then Komodo this afternoon
[09:53] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:54] <gigix> morning
[09:56] <brobostigon> morning gigix
[10:04] <davmor2> morning all
[10:04] <dogmatic69> o/
[10:26] <davmor2> bigcalm: did you get the update to ics yet?
[10:37]  * AlanBell upgraded to cyanogenmod 9
[10:37]  * dwatkins waits patiently for CM9 to be supported on the HTC Desire HD
[10:37]  * gord is still using android 2.1
[10:38]  * diplo eagerly awaits getting a phone that he can afford that could actually run a newer release
[10:38] <diplo> :)
[10:38] <ali1234> i like how you can unlock directly to camera
[10:38]  * davmor2 is still on 2.2 and will never be able to update till there is a phone upgrade in my life
[10:38] <ali1234> i don't like the default calendar and email widgets though
[10:38] <ali1234> they should be 4 wide
[10:38] <directhex> anything other than android 2.3 is a statistical anomaly
[10:40] <directhex> and that's straight from the horse's mouth. ICS accounts for 7% of android. http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
[10:41] <Myrtti> Galaxy Nexus ♥
[10:41] <ali1234> that's still probably more than the total sales of WP7
[10:41] <directhex> yes.
[10:42] <directhex> but, e.g., nokia make more money from ios patent licenses than from lumia sales
[10:45] <diplo> I'd like to tinker with a WP7 device, don't know anyone local to me that has one though
[10:45] <diplo> :/
[10:45] <davmor2> directhex: yeah that's the problem everyone is suing everyone rather than just making the best devices they can, cause they get more money that way
[10:46] <directhex> davmor2, http://dilbert.com/2012-06-30/
[10:49] <diplo> Are you still liking your WP7 phone directhex ?
[10:49] <directhex> diplo, yeah. very cross about the WP7.8/WP8 situation, but it's still much nicer than android
[10:50] <diplo> yeah read about that the other day, that really does suck
[10:50] <davmor2> directhex: indeed
[11:35]  * czajkowski hugs christel 
[11:36]  * christel hugs czajkowski 
[11:37]  * davmor2 blows raspberries at czajkowski and waves hello to christel 
[11:38] <christel> hehe
[11:38] <christel> heya davmor2 :)
[11:38]  * AlanBell wonders if christel will pop by on her tour of farnham
[11:38] <christel> ooh i might very well do!
[11:38] <christel> give me your address
[11:38] <christel> (for the office)
[11:38] <AlanBell> Libertus Solutions, suite 3 the Granary, Hones yard
[11:38] <christel> we have viewings at 1, 2 and 3 (last one is in farnham, riverside) however i suspect they'll only take like 15mins each :)
[11:38] <AlanBell> behind the sugarcraft place next to the station
[11:39] <christel> awesome! i shall pop in before or after viewing riverside! possibly after, i'll bring cake!
[11:39] <christel> <3
[11:39] <AlanBell> gosh :)
[11:39] <davmor2> czajkowski: where up are you with the sun?
[11:39]  * AlanBell 3> cake
[11:40] <AlanBell> um, that failed
[11:40] <AlanBell> <3
[11:45] <diplo> christel: Tap fixed?
[11:50] <czajkowski> davmor2: London
[11:50] <davmor2> czajkowski: that's not up
[11:51] <czajkowski> it's up from where popey is
[11:51] <davmor2> czajkowski: that's down and across :P
[11:51]  * czajkowski peers at davmor2 
[11:57]  * bigcalm returns
[11:58] <bigcalm> South is down
[12:00] <bigcalm> I don't like the noise my Proliant is making :(
[12:00] <bigcalm> Sounds like a fan is off balance or something
[12:04] <davmor2> bigcalm: only on boot up though right? I don't here my fan the rest of the time
[12:04] <bigcalm> davmor2: this is all the time. It's hard to describe. I'll try and record it
[12:05] <gord> my fan was making a weird noise this morning, turns out a cable was caught in it, another technical computer problem successfully solved by gord!
[12:07] <diplo> Really must check mine out, not seen or heard from it for like 4 months
[12:08] <diplo> Its in the kids play room, always forget to check whether the kids have poked things through the fans etc
[12:08] <diplo> :)
[12:25] <dwatkins> get them a Raspberry Pi so there are no moving parts, diplo ;)
[12:26] <diplo> heh, it's my fileserver.. their play room used to be my office
[12:26] <diplo> Only thing I haven't moved out of there is my server
[12:29] <bigcalm> What's this noise coming from my Proliant? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1151681/Voice%20004.3ga
[12:30] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: the rattle?
[12:30] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: yes
[12:30] <dogmatic69> sounds like a fan on the way out
[12:31] <bigcalm> Not had the box for long. Don't really want to send it back to HP for fixing
[12:31] <dogmatic69> Tell them to send out a tech guy. if it is a fan they should be hot swappable
[12:32] <bigcalm> Ug
[12:32] <diplo> Unplug the fan if not CPU and see if it's defo that
[12:33] <bigcalm> The only fan is the case fan :)
[12:33] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: what proliant is it?
[12:35] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: 401 I think
[12:35] <bigcalm> Cannie remember now :D
[12:36] <dogmatic69> but a blade right?
[12:40] <bigcalm> I honestly can't remember the model. It's: https://twitter.com/bigcalm/status/219721595760017408
[12:40] <bigcalm> Maybe N40L
[12:40] <Dave2> bigcalm: liar
[12:40] <Dave2> case fan and PSU fan
[12:41] <bigcalm> Dave2: no CPU fan is what I meant
[12:41] <bigcalm> Dave2: only seen one fan so far, shows how much I've poked it
[12:42] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: ah ok, did not know those existed. just stick your finger in the fan and see if the noise stops
[12:42] <bigcalm> Haha
[12:42] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: I may laugh, but I had considered it
[12:43] <diplo> bigcalm: It's ok to do that for a short few secs :)
[12:43] <dogmatic69> put it in the middle, hurts less :D
[12:43] <bigcalm> ;)
[12:43] <diplo> I've done it many a time to see if its the fan
[12:43] <dogmatic69> ye, it will draw loads of current if done for too long
[12:45] <bigcalm> Can't really get to any of the fans
[12:50] <Dave2> You can get to the fans pretty easily, you just need to take stuff out
[12:50] <Dave2> Well
[12:50] <Dave2> To the main fan
[12:50] <bigcalm> Dave2: if I take stuff out, it won't be switched on
[12:50] <Dave2> pft
[12:51] <bigcalm> The point is to find the source of noise while it's running
[12:51] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: just use a pencil or similar
[12:56] <bigcalm> diplo: was it you who has CM on a Wildfire?
[12:58] <diplo> Yep
[12:58] <bigcalm> diplo: great. How did you root the phone?
[12:58] <diplo> Didn't upgrade at the weekend, been in agony since Thursday :/
[12:58] <diplo> With a fair bit of work I'm afraid
[12:59] <bigcalm> That's what I'm finding
[12:59] <diplo> So the biggest issue was the hboot
[12:59] <diplo> From memory, I had v1.2, and to root I needed 1.1
[12:59] <diplo> So I had to downgrade the hboot
[12:59] <diplo> Is that your issue ?
[12:59] <bigcalm> I'm not sure, but that might be something for me to look at
[13:00] <diplo> I can see if I can find the tutorial I followed ?
[13:00] <bigcalm> Thanks
[13:01] <diplo> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1145035
[13:01] <diplo> Looks like the one
[13:01] <bigcalm> Grumble. All done via Windows?
[13:02] <diplo> I may have done actually yeah, was dual booting my home laptop at the time
[13:02] <bigcalm> Fair enough
[13:02] <diplo> the bat files aren't doing anything special from memory
[13:02] <diplo> Can probably work around it
[13:03] <diplo> Do you have a windows PC at home?
[13:03] <bigcalm> Yay, HBOOT is already HBOOT-1.01.0001 on Hayley's phone
[13:03] <diplo> That makes life A LOT easier :)
[13:03] <bigcalm> Hayley's is windows. Could hijack that I guess
[13:03] <diplo> That was my biggest issue tbh, getting a solution that actually worked
[13:04] <bigcalm> I tried revolutionary, but it just sat there waiting to see a device
[13:04] <bigcalm> Revoke3 saw the device and did a lot until it complained about the firmware being too new
[13:05] <bigcalm> But I think I'll have enough here to get it working tonight
[13:05] <bigcalm> Thanks diplo :)
[13:06] <diplo> Well should be online later, not sure how much help I will be bt more than willing to give it a go
[13:07] <diplo> Might upgrade mine tonight actually
[13:07] <bigcalm> :)
[13:09] <davmor2> bigcalm: that sounds to me like the fan isn't slowing down
[13:09] <bigcalm> Eh?
[13:10] <diplo> Sounds like dodgey bearings to me
[13:10] <davmor2> bigcalm: sorry playing catchup from earlier lunch and all that :P
[13:11] <davmor2> bigcalm: What I'm saying is it sounds like your fan is going full pelt are you doing something like raid work or something that would be cpu/hd heavy load that might explain the upped fan speed
[13:13] <bigcalm> davmor2: I have RAID1 on the 1st two drives. But not doing anything intensive as far as I know
[13:18]  * bigcalm fires of s05e07 - slowly catching up
[13:29] <gord> still no planes on popey cam :(
[13:31] <davmor2> gord: clouds in the way
[13:32] <bigcalm> The time lapse is cool
[13:32] <gord> davmor2: i was *promised* blames
[13:32] <gord> planes
[13:32] <gord> but i blames popey
[13:33] <davmor2> gord: no I think you were right the first time, look at how much popey has allowed you to blame :D
[13:51] <popey> A PLANE!
[13:51] <gord> lies!
[14:04] <diplo> davmor2: I have the film if you want to watch it :)
[14:05] <diplo> Haven't brought myself to watch it yet mind :)
[14:34] <diplo> http://www.rt.com/news/iran-bill-hormuz-strait-218/
[14:34] <diplo> ooer
[14:35]  * diplo digs push bike out ready for the fuel price rises again :(
[14:35] <diplo> And waterproofs
[14:42]  * bigcalm tickles popey
[14:43] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] Akademy 2012 in Pictures - http://blogs.kde.org/node/4583
[14:47] <bigcalm> Who here is fabulous with Doctine? :)
[14:50] <diplo> PHP libraries ?
[14:50]  * bigcalm moves on to s05e08
[14:50] <bigcalm> diplo: indeed
[14:51] <bigcalm> It's one of the 2 popular ORMs that Symfony can use
[14:51] <diplo> Nope, afraid not.. just wanted to confirm
[14:51] <bigcalm> I want to turn a SQL query into a proper Doctrine statement :)
[14:51] <diplo> Having issues ?
[14:52] <bigcalm> I can safely paste this without braking any NDAs
[14:52] <bigcalm> SELECT api.name, source.name, source.country_code FROM source JOIN api ON source.api_id = api.id WHERE api.is_active = 1 AND source.is_active = 1;
[14:54] <diplo> Well it's not very revealing :)
[14:54] <diplo> just looking at their site now
[14:54] <bigcalm> Me too
[14:54] <bigcalm> Oh, it's also Doctrine 1.2 not 2
[14:55] <bigcalm> Or is it
[14:55]  * bigcalm scratches his head
[14:55] <bigcalm> 2.1
[14:55] <bigcalm> Silly me
[14:55] <Songtao> hi guys, I m stuck now
[14:55] <Bollinger> when looking at the output of top on the Mem line reads Mem: 8G  total, 5.6G used 2.5G free 316M buffers Yet when I add up all the memory used in the RES column it is no where near 5.6G what am I missing?
[14:56] <Songtao> I untar an existing system to a new drive, and changed uuid in /etc/fstab file, now the system won't boot up
[14:56] <diplo> Bollinger: should be a cached field as well
[14:57] <diplo> Linux gobbles up all the memory and frees it if something else requires it
[14:58] <dogmatic69> Bollinger: 'free memory' is wasted memory
[14:58] <diplo> http://www.linuxatemyram.com/
[14:58] <diplo> :)
[14:58] <Bollinger> diplo, ahh!  many thanks ;-)
[14:58] <diplo> Much better than I can explain it
[14:59] <Bollinger> ah so 4.8G cache is where all my memory went. I was thinking I needed to buy some more RAM.
[14:59] <dogmatic69> Bollinger: exactly :)
[15:00] <dogmatic69> its like windows prefetch, except it works
[15:07] <AlanBell> buzz
[15:07] <bigcalm> Busy bee?
[15:09] <davmor2> AlanBell: you don't want to keep touching that cable if it's making buzzing noises, it'll likely go bang! next if you do :D
[15:13]  * bigcalm points popey to the correct email address :P
[15:13] <popey> :D
[15:13]  * popey edits his address book
[15:13] <popey> that sounds so retro
[15:13] <bigcalm> Doesn't it just?
[15:15] <gord> i don't think anyone has ever managed to send me an email, without sending it to gordallot first
[15:24]  * AlanBell has a christel here
[15:24] <AlanBell> and cake
[15:24] <bigcalm> CAKE!
[15:27]  * Seeker` imagines popey running around with his arms out like wings
[15:27] <popey> yes
[15:34] <mattt> speaking of buzzing noises
[15:34]  * mattt zzZzzZzZz
[15:36] <davmor2> AlanBell: no fair I want a Cakestel
[15:38] <davmor2> popey: but you are retro by the way Crocket says can he have his shirt back the bad weather is hitting miami soon ;)
[15:39] <popey> i think davmor2 is stuck in the 1980's
[15:39] <popey> not just music, but TV too!
[15:40] <bigcalm> I fully agree
[15:41] <davmor2> popey: No tv I watch all sorts, music too, I just prefer the 80's music.  But there is a new Miami Vice so :P
[15:41] <davmor2> popey: admittedly I've never seen it :D
[15:41] <davmor2> but I know of it
[15:54] <bigcalm> Car parked over the road has a number plate ending in NTL. That made me do a double take. They have scared me for life
[15:58] <davmor2> bigcalm: so after a weekend of using my super hub in modem only mode I have to report it hasn't dropped once, it's not been perfect either but it has at least been up hurah :)
[16:00] <bigcalm> \o/
[16:00] <davmor2> bigcalm: also I managed to watch the Google keynote, and it was said that jellybean would be rolled out to the xoom in mid-july, I will of course only believe this when it happens
[16:00] <bigcalm> davmor2: to the US maybe
[16:00] <bigcalm> davmor2: they have had ICS for some time now
[16:01] <davmor2> bigcalm: there were talking about the fact that it was world wide and when could the world get it so we will see, but I'm with you, expect it in the uk when 6.4 is released in the US :)
[16:01] <bigcalm> :)
[16:02] <bigcalm> davmor2: Have you checked your Xoom today?
[16:02] <davmor2> bigcalm: nope
[16:02] <bigcalm> Me neither
[16:02] <bigcalm> Silly work getting in the way
[16:03] <Azelphur> Anyone clever care to help me with wine? I'm getting X Error when I try and start anything under wine. #winehq said it's because my libgl 32 version is not the same as my kernel module version, don't know how to check or fix :(
[16:04] <davmor2> bigcalm: indeed I'm sure work is there only to replace fun :D
[16:05] <davmor2> bigcalm: that or it's there to make you appreciate the fun all the more
[16:05] <davmor2> czajkowski: Prod
[16:05] <bigcalm> davmor2: possibly the latter
[16:05] <davmor2> bigcalm: see I really appreciated that
[16:06] <czajkowski> davmor2: lo
[16:07] <davmor2> czajkowski: sorry I was just appreciating fun :)
[16:07] <bigcalm> Heh
[16:21] <davmor2> czajkowski: Wanna Cookie?
[16:22] <christel> AlanBell: thank you for le coffee! <3
[16:23] <davmor2> christel: You can't show that kinda favouritism I think we should all have Cakestel visit ;)
[16:29] <christel> hehe
[16:31] <bigcalm> I need a tea fairy
[16:31] <Myrtti> hmmm
[16:31] <Myrtti> very offtopic but relevant to uk
[16:32] <bigcalm> Tea?
[16:32] <davmor2> bigcalm: hahaha
[16:32] <Myrtti> I was going to ask if people have any experience on prepaid credit cards and if they could recommend one
[16:32] <bigcalm> Not I
[16:32] <davmor2> Myrtti: The virgin money one is meant to be good
[16:33] <dogmatic69> Myrtti: pre-paid sort of goes against the idea of credit?
[16:33] <davmor2> Myrtti: we have one but it is my wifes from unison which you wouldn't be able to get I guess.
[16:34] <davmor2> Myrtti: most just topup at paypoints or payzones and then you use as normal
[16:34] <Myrtti> dogmatic69: pedantics aside, it's a great way of giving money, or using it to do internet purchases from places you'd not want to risk your own card for
[16:34] <dogmatic69> I see
[16:34] <Myrtti> or in my case, getting *free* as in beer but not free as in speech books from Google Play bookstore, which for some stupid reason require a UK credit card even if the book is gratis
[16:35] <dogmatic69> I had something like that, but for travel.. they dont do 'travellers cheques' much more
[16:36] <dogmatic69> Myrtti: you in the UK right?
[16:37] <Myrtti> in USA they're quite common, in Finland unheard of
[17:18] <AlanBell> christel: thank you for the yummy cake :)
[17:19] <christel> :D
[17:20] <davmor2> AlanBell: you rub in the Cakestel visit again and I'll cry
[17:20] <AlanBell> davmor2: it was an exceptionally good cake
[17:21] <davmor2> :'(
[17:21]  * AlanBell hugs davmor2 
[17:22]  * AlanBell looks forward to Beer traing and BBQ this month
[17:27] <mattt> AlanBell: what day's your bbq again ?
[17:28] <bigcalm> 2 weekend after the RAT
[17:29]  * kvarley is puzzled at hardware
[17:29] <kvarley> Just been told that I can plug in a 20pin picoPSU into a 24pin motherboard and it will work so long as the additional 4pin 12v connector is plugged in.
[17:29] <mattt> bigcalm: ah, thought i missed it
[17:31] <AlanBell> mattt: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1824/detail/
[17:36] <mattt> AlanBell: thanks, just registered as a maybe
[17:37] <AlanBell> yay
[17:57]  * TheOpenSourcerer hopes AlanBell didn't eat all of christel 's yummy cake...
[18:00] <Myrtti> EAT ALL THE CAKE
[18:02] <davmor2> AlanBell: what do you mean.....What cake
[18:11] <christel> TheOpenSourcerer: i have left you a slice on your desk! ;)
[18:11] <christel> unless AlanBell ate it when i left!
[18:11] <TheOpenSourcerer> Oooh - Thanks christel :-D
[18:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> I haz cake
[18:12] <TheOpenSourcerer> In the morning.
[18:12] <christel> :D
[18:14] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: keep it covered or the mice will have it
[18:14] <TheOpenSourcerer> No mice in our office. Far to clean and neat.
[18:15] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: wow yo move the cursor with your mind :D
[18:16] <TheOpenSourcerer> huh?
[18:17] <davmor2> TheOpenSourcerer: you don't use a mouse to move the cursor on your screen as you have no mice so you must use your mind right?
[18:18] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ahh. Twas a bit slow there.
[18:49] <Myrtti> oh right, Olympic Games have an official camera. I wonder do they smack you with a inflatable Coca-Cola bottle if you try to take photos of the Marathon with a Nikon or Canon
[18:51] <popey> you can't pay for tickets with anything other than sponsor credit card, visa :(
[18:56] <Azelphur> :(
[19:01] <diplo> evenin all
[19:14] <ali1234> could someone read this up to end of part 4 and tell me if it makes sense: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UEFI
[19:18] <diplo> Seems to make sense from as much as I understand
[19:18] <ali1234> do you understand why i think it's not useful?
[19:19] <diplo> Yep, it's basically not as secure as it's set out to be because you can run either Aroot or Broot against each other with the cross certs ?
[19:20] <diplo> Whether I typed that correctly, I understand what you are getting at
[19:20] <ali1234> i know, it's hard to explain
[19:20] <diplo> I understand, so if I do, people who want to know about this should :D
[19:20] <ali1234> it gets trickier if you also do sub certificates on both sides, but i don't think it affects things at all
[19:21] <ali1234> in the end if you use a cross certificate you might as well just include the certificate you are making a cross for, and it makes no difference in the end
[19:21] <ali1234> and given that it doesn't even work i don't want to go down the path of covering/explaining that in detail
[19:21] <diplo> Spoke to Matthew Garrett at all ?
[19:21] <ali1234> yeah
[19:22] <ali1234> unfortunately he's about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard
[19:22] <diplo> :)
[19:22] <ali1234> i guess he's got better things to do than explain this to every noob out there
[19:22] <ali1234> which is why i'm trying to do it
[19:22] <diplo> I watched a vid of him presenting
[19:23] <diplo> Seems like he knows his stuff but also may be a bit hard to talk to the way he answered some questions
[19:23] <diplo> That was initial thought from me anyhoo
[19:24] <ali1234> so at the moment i'm leaning towards the following conclusions:
[19:24] <ali1234> 1. fedora's plan is the only workable one
[19:24] <ali1234> 2. ubuntu's plan is fatally flawed and won't be allowed by microsoft
[19:25] <ali1234> 3. if you want to customize the kernel or modules *at all* then nothing done by ubuntu or fedora will help you at all, you must do everything yourself or turn off secure boot
[19:25] <diplo> I still can't believe that Microsoft are allow to control this, you would have thought EU would have waded in and said this should be run by a foundation or something of that ilk, and not a corporation
[19:26] <ali1234> and by "workable" i mean it's the only way to get any software to run on a windows 8 machine without doing anything in the bios
[19:26] <AlanBell> ali1234: I will have a read
[19:26] <ali1234> none of this at all will be of any use to anyone who s willing to change bios settings
[19:26] <ali1234> anyway i'm going to cover all that in the next part
[19:30] <ali1234> This part 4 might not actually even be worth posting
[19:34] <AlanBell> I think the whole concept is flawed really, as you can boot stuff and then launch a virtual machine and continue booting other stuff in the VM without it knowing
[19:36] <ali1234> no, that's not true
[19:36] <AlanBell> the Canonical approach is to have a really thin bootloader that loads unsigned code really quickly
[19:36] <ali1234> it's very easy to detect virtualized environments on x86
[19:37] <ali1234> yes, and the canonical approach won't be allowed by microsoft
[19:37] <AlanBell> but a thicker bootloader would take longer until it will run unsigned code, but they all will do
[19:37] <AlanBell> just in userspace
[19:37] <ali1234> if microsoft ever signs anything that can run anything that can load unsigned kernel code, then the whole house of cards collapses
[19:38] <ali1234> and the system described by canonical is an example of a system that does exactly that
[19:40] <ali1234> that also includes exploits as well of course
[19:41] <ali1234> if you have the microsoft key enrolled, you are not secure if any exploit is found in any signed bootloader, kernel, or module
[19:41] <ali1234> for any OS
[19:41] <ali1234> which is a lot of OSes
[19:41] <ali1234> well, any signed-by-microsoft OS
[19:41] <ali1234> but we can still assume that will cover quite a few
[19:43] <ali1234> since there will be loads of exploits, there will need be many CRL updates
[19:49] <TheOpenSourcerer> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web
[19:51] <ali1234> TheOpenSourcerer: "Because these operating systems do not have keys stored in every computer's firmware by default like Microsoft does, users will have to disable Secure Boot before booting the new system's installer." - not true
[19:54] <ali1234> what they say about GRUB2 is spot on though
[19:55] <ali1234> you know, it's never actually necessary to "disable security" or anything like that
[19:55] <ali1234> if you are sitting in front of the machine you can always override it
[19:55] <ali1234> that's what the certification says
[19:55] <ali1234> even on arm it is possible to disable the secure boot per the spec
[19:56] <ali1234> if you have the platform key you can do anything you want through a signed update
[20:03] <ali1234> i think there interpretation of the fedora plan is also incorrect
[20:05] <ali1234> you know, i don't think there's anything in the UEFI spec to prevent a boot device having two bootloader binaries installed
[20:05] <ali1234> if the first one fails to authenticate the second one would run
[20:05] <ali1234> so an install cd could try the ubuntu signed bootloader, and if that fails, try the microsoft one
[20:11] <ali1234> hmm maybe not
[21:13] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Tony] But which one is the straight man? - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/07/02/but-which-one-is-the-straight-man/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=but-which-one-is-the-straight-man
[21:15] <popey> haha