[06:52] <dholbach> good morning
[06:56] <dholbach_> ajmitch, thanks for the review
[06:57] <dholbach> I just commented on it again, as I wasn't quite sure how to proceed
[07:04] <PaoloRotolo> Good morning!
[07:07] <dholbach> hey PaoloRotolo
[07:11] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, hi!
[07:18] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, I tried to post a feedback on the app page: https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/1032/  but it says that I haven't permission
[07:19] <dholbach> oh, I had no idea :/
[07:20] <dholbach> can you put up your comment on a pastebin again, then I'll try to put it in there
[07:22] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, ok
[07:27] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, here it is: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1072675/
[07:29] <dholbach> PaoloRotolo, ok, this time it worked: https://myapps.developer.ubuntu.com/dev/apps/1032/feedback/
[07:29] <dholbach> you might have to be member of ~ubuntu-app-review-contributors
[07:40] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, good, thanks :)
[08:51] <ajmitch> dholbach: hi, sorry I didn't comment earlier
[08:51]  * ajmitch picked a bad time to get sick
[08:51] <dholbach> ajmitch, oh damn :-/
[08:51]  * dholbach hugs ajmitch
[08:52] <dholbach> I hope you're going to be better soon again!
[08:52] <dholbach> ajmitch, I updated the merge proposal again - I hope that's what you intended it to be
[08:52] <ajmitch> yeah, I seemed to be a bit better tonight
[08:52]  * ajmitch shall have to take a look
[08:52] <ajmitch> mutable default arguments are something of a python gotcha :)
[08:53] <dholbach> ajmitch, it'd be great if we could get it in - then I'd trigger another build and we'd have most of the regular checks covered by a small tool :-D
[08:53] <ajmitch> the list is bound to the function definition & not reset to [] when called with no argument
[08:53] <ajmitch> ok, will look now then
[08:55] <dholbach> ajmitch, I'm not quite sure I understand the problem with the default argument
[08:55] <ajmitch> let me throw together a quick test case
[08:55] <dholbach> ajmitch, I guess I'm just a bit dense :)
[08:58] <ajmitch> or I'm just wrong
[09:03] <ajmitch> you're not changing the argument within the function, so you get away with it afaik, so ignore my MP comments :)
[09:03] <dholbach> yeah, I just pass it through :)
[09:23] <dholbach> ajmitch, does "ignore my MP comments" mean "it's approved, merge it" or are you still having a look at it?
[09:27] <ajmitch> dholbach: merge it
[09:27] <dholbach> great
[09:27] <dholbach> thanks
[09:27] <ajmitch> sorry, I should have marked it as such on the MP
[09:28] <dholbach> no worries
[09:29]  * dholbach triggers another build
[09:29] <dholbach> that'd hopefully make reviewing apps a bit more fun :)
[09:29] <dholbach> especially once we add examples for successfully fixed apps
[09:55] <dholbach> PaoloRotolo, there should be a new arb-lint version in the ppa now, which also checks if the /opt installation is correct
[09:57] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, great!
[09:57] <PaoloRotolo> I'll install it at home today
[09:57] <dholbach> super
[09:59] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, the app review is fun :P
[09:59] <dholbach> cool, I'm glad you like it :)
[10:00] <PaoloRotolo> :)
[10:06] <dholbach> ajmitch, are we going to ignore things like usr/share/python/runtime.d/harvestwidget.rtupdate and etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf?
[10:07] <ajmitch> dholbach: they're added by dh_python2 & dh_apport respectively, from what I know
[10:07] <ajmitch> I think we'd need to override those to stop them being created
[10:09] <dholbach> ajmitch, and that's what we'd want?
[10:10] <dholbach> I guess what I'm asking is: is it unacceptable to have these files in there?
[10:11] <ajmitch> to avoid potential file conflicts, it is, since we're trying to stick close to the /opt requirement
[10:11] <dholbach> ok
[10:11] <ajmitch> technically I don't know if it's a problem either way, as they have the package name
[10:17] <dholbach> hum, I can't find dh_apport
[10:17] <ajmitch> it's shipped in dh-apport
[10:18] <dholbach> I don't have it installed, but still the crashdb.conf file gets shipped in the package :)
[10:18] <ajmitch> then I'm probably wrong again & should stop misleading you
[10:18] <dholbach> no no :)
[10:19] <dholbach> aha, python-distutils-extra again
[10:20] <ajmitch> oh is it?
[10:20] <ajmitch> fun
[10:20]  * didrocks should set an autojoin :)
[10:21] <dholbach> hey didrocks
[10:21] <dholbach> we just found files like etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf
[10:21] <dholbach> which look like they're shipped through python-distutils-extra
[10:22] <didrocks> indeed :)
[10:22] <dholbach> as many folks who just submitted apps didn't modify these files at all, it might make sense to just override whatever ships them somehow
[10:22] <didrocks> this is to enable running ubuntu-bug <project> against the upstream project
[10:23] <didrocks> hum, they shouldn't need to modify it
[10:23] <dholbach> but for the future it'd be nice if apport and python-distutils-extra would do something like etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/extras-harvestwidget-crashdb.conf or opt/extras.ubuntu.com/harvestwidget/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf
[10:23] <didrocks> it should just do the right thing
[10:23] <dholbach> ah ok
[10:23] <dholbach> well then, I don't know :)
[10:23] <didrocks> well, apport doesn't read extras.ubuntu.com
[10:23] <didrocks> so the bug is apport to read from there?
[10:23] <dholbach> apport and python-distutils-extra
[10:23] <dholbach> first for apport to check an alternate location
[10:24] <dholbach> and then for p-d-e to install to it
[10:24] <didrocks> yeah, then to push in the alternate location
[10:24] <dholbach> yep
[10:24] <dholbach> I'll have a chat with pitti
[10:24] <didrocks> I still think that if we wanted to be serious about /opt, we would change all desktop service to run from there
[10:24] <dholbach> ajmitch, which location would you prefer?
[10:24] <didrocks> run/listen
[10:24] <didrocks> like dbus and such
[10:24] <dholbach> etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/extras-harvestwidget-crashdb.conf or opt/extras.ubuntu.com/harvestwidget/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf?
[10:24] <dholbach> yeah
[10:24] <dholbach> opt sucks balls
[10:24] <dholbach> :)
[10:24] <ajmitch> agreed
[10:25] <didrocks> well, it's only 2 years that I'm advocating for this, since the ARB was created :)
[10:25]  * dholbach urgently looks for his valerian tea, to calm down again
[10:25] <didrocks> no issue with /opt as long as we support it :)
[10:25] <ajmitch> didrocks: advocating for more stuff in /opt, or not at all? :)
[10:26] <didrocks> ajmitch: everything can go in /opt, but before making this a requirement, we should ensure that apport, dbus, unity lens files, and such are listening to /opt/<whatever>
[10:26] <dholbach> ajmitch, which of the two location would make more sense to you? etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/extras-harvestwidget-crashdb.conf or opt/extras.ubuntu.com/harvestwidget/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf?
[10:26] <ajmitch> dholbach: I *suspect* we'd need to ask for an explicit exception to have it in /etc still, going by the letter of the law "_
[10:26] <dholbach> the good thing is: pitti is on the TB ;-)
[10:26] <ajmitch> yes, and so is stgraber :)
[10:26] <didrocks> everything where it makes sense to have application hooked up and where you put exceptions :)
[10:27] <dholbach> alright
[10:27] <ajmitch> didrocks: and then you still run into problems where people want to write a plugin for a certain app
[10:27] <ajmitch> whether it be nautilus, or something else
[10:27] <didrocks> ajmitch: well, do we want plugins in all our apps?
[10:27] <didrocks> ajmitch: this is a control gate in fact :)
[10:28] <didrocks> to see what we want to enables for ARB apps or not
[10:28] <didrocks> enable*
[10:28] <ajmitch> right, but we don't support them right now except for lenses as a special case
[10:28] <didrocks> yeah, and I think it should stay that way
[10:28] <didrocks> like just supporting that for some special cases
[10:29] <didrocks> base system, like dbus, apport, desktop files detection
[10:29] <ajmitch> the restrictions on this could probably be made clearer for the next app developer competition, too :)
[10:29] <didrocks> (so bamf, unity…)
[10:29] <didrocks> some special ones like unity lens
[10:41]  * ajmitch needs to bug unity people some more to not have to restart for new lenses :)
[10:41] <dholbach> ok, I talked to pitti
[10:41] <dholbach> he said we should just move the file to opt/extras.ubuntu.com/harvestwidget/etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d/harvestwidget-crashdb.conf
[10:41] <dholbach> and apport and p-d-e will need to be fixed
[10:41] <ajmitch> problem is, my friends who work on it tell me to submit a patch
[10:41] <ajmitch> dholbach: ok
[10:42] <dholbach> I'll add a test and docs to arb-lint about it
[10:42] <ajmitch> apport would need an SRU for it to look in the right place then
[10:42] <dholbach> yep
[10:42] <dholbach> and p-d-e too
[10:42] <ajmitch> yippee?
[10:43] <dholbach> let's go shopping
[10:43] <ajmitch> sorry for sarcasm, I'm a little jaded on /opt still :)
[10:43]  * dholbach makes a valerian tea for ajmitch too
[10:43] <ajmitch> heh :)
[10:48]  * ajmitch really needs to go & sleep soon
[10:48] <ajmitch> I'm really sorry I haven't been around much for this apps sprint, this just turned out to be one of my busier weeks
[10:51] <dholbach> we can do it again
[10:51] <dholbach> I think we all learnt a lot
[10:51] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=arb
[10:52] <ajmitch> not too many, but some will take some work
[11:13] <dholbach> ok, I just went ahead and added tests with docs and examples
[11:29] <dholbach> ok, lunch time :)
[14:13] <dholbach> coolbhavi, if you install arb-lint from the PPA now, it should do a lot of the testing for you
[14:13] <dholbach> hopefully also the /opt stuff
[14:14] <coolbhavi> dholbach, sure will check it out :) Thanks!
[14:14] <dholbach> mhall119, so I should run arb-lint on arb-lint itself? ;-)
[14:15] <dholbach> E: The package seems to contain no files in '/opt/extras.ubuntu.com/arb-
[14:15] <dholbach>    lint' which indicates a problem with the installation of files.
[14:15] <dholbach> ;-)
[14:15] <coolbhavi> :)
[14:24] <mhall119> dholbach: lol
[14:25] <mhall119> dholbach: so now we can take a tarball, put it in a bzr branch, create packaging for it, and check that the package follows the extras guidelines
[14:25] <mhall119> that's great!
[14:30] <dholbach> yeah, we're slowly getting somewhere :)
[14:30] <dholbach> hey highvoltage :)
[14:36] <highvoltage> howdy dholbach
[14:36] <dholbach> how are things?
[14:36] <highvoltage> I have a scumbag brain.
[14:36] <dholbach> what what?
[14:37] <coolbhavi> hey highvoltage
[14:37] <highvoltage> I'm a victim of this again today: https://plus.google.com/118060934321492774758/posts/P6Ryggx81MU
[14:37] <highvoltage> got millions of ideas last night and couldn't sleep and now my head is just a black hole.
[14:38] <highvoltage> dholbach: "scumbag brain" is a popular meme: http://www.quickmeme.com/Scumbag-Brain/
[14:38] <highvoltage> dholbach: and you, how are you?
[14:38] <highvoltage> hey there coolbhavi
[14:38] <coolbhavi> highvoltage, how are you doing buddy?
[14:39] <dholbach> ah ok, I had no idea about that meme :)
[14:40] <dholbach> highvoltage, I had a similar phase and two things helped me back then: I kept pencil and paper (not a laptop!!!) next to the bed and pinned the ideas down - also doing just a little bit of sports (not too much) during the day
[14:41] <highvoltage> dholbach: I'll try the pencil. I do more and more excercise but that seems to make it worse (especially if I do it later in the day).
[14:42] <highvoltage> I finally joined the trello board. It's pretty cool.
[14:43] <highvoltage> I wanted to spend more time with arb stuff this weekend but only ended up reviewing one app :-/
[14:43] <dholbach> I'll blog about what we did in the last few days later on
[14:43] <dholbach> hopefully that'll get us some more interested folks :)
[14:44] <coolbhavi> :)
[14:44] <highvoltage> great. I've been meaning to ask about that, so does that go on the app developers blog?
[14:44] <dholbach> highvoltage, I don't have access to it
[14:45] <dholbach> but I guess we could put something up on an etherpad and get it up on the app dev blog if we all think that's the best place for it
[15:07] <PaoloRotolo> Hi all!
[15:08] <highvoltage> hi PaoloRotolo
[15:08] <PaoloRotolo> highvoltage, hi
[15:35] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, The new release of arb-lint is cool
[15:36] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, it reported 2 errors against koza
[15:36] <PaoloRotolo> I'm solving them...
[15:37] <dholbach> sweet
[15:38] <dholbach> I'm in a  call - I'll be back in a few
[15:38] <PaoloRotolo> ok
[15:50] <PaoloRotolo> Fixed :D
[16:10] <PaoloRotolo> Successfully updated my branch
[16:26] <dholbach> PaoloRotolo, shall I add a comment for you to some app?
[16:33] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, yes, thanks!
[16:33] <dholbach> ah, that's koza again?
[16:34] <dholbach> PaoloRotolo, ^?
[16:34] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, yes :) I've other two errors
[16:34] <dholbach> perfect
[16:34] <PaoloRotolo> after the arb-lint update
[16:36] <dholbach> good work
[16:36] <dholbach> PaoloRotolo, dh_python2 and which other one?
[16:37] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, only python
[16:37] <dholbach> ah ok
[16:37] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, and I have fixed a typo in debian/control
[16:38] <dholbach> ah cool
[16:38] <dholbach> good work
[16:38] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, thanks :)!
[16:42] <PaoloRotolo> So, Koza is ready for the software center (IMHO) :D
[16:43] <dholbach> highvoltage, wendar, stgraber, ajmitch: ^ say Hi to a great new contributor to the apps world! :)
[16:44] <highvoltage> hi PaoloRotolo!
[16:45] <highvoltage> PaoloRotolo: and thanks for all the work, it's much appreciated!
[16:45] <dholbach> I will have to rush out in a bit because a friend of mine will have a surprise birthday party in a bit and I'll have to get a present still 0:-)
[16:46] <PaoloRotolo> highvoltage, dholbach Thanks a lot :)
[16:46] <dholbach> so if somebody could have a quick look over lp:~paolorotolo/ubuntu-app-reviews/koza that'd be cool
[16:47] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, Have a nice evening
[16:47] <PaoloRotolo> thanks for all
[16:47] <wendar> hi PaoloRotolo, and thanks!
[16:47] <PaoloRotolo> :)
[16:47] <dholbach> I just blogged about the last two days: http://daniel.holba.ch/blog/2012/07/making-better-apps-possible/
[16:47] <dholbach> thanks everybody for your great work :)
[16:47] <dholbach> if I missed something, I'll write another blog post tomorrow :-)
[16:49] <PaoloRotolo> dholbach, nice, thanks again!
[17:17] <highvoltage> wendar: around?
[17:17] <wendar> highvoltage: yup
[17:18] <highvoltage> wendar: I think it was you who commented that even MOTU apps only need two +1 from MOTUs
[17:18] <highvoltage> wendar: do you think it should be like that for ARB apps too?
[17:18] <highvoltage> wendar: I'm thinking that if the arb pretty much agrees with that then we should get the policy changed to keep the vote queue as small as possible
[17:19] <wendar> highvoltage: I think 3 is pretty reasonable for arb apps
[17:19] <highvoltage> indeed.
[17:19] <wendar> highvoltage: we just need to get better about actually voting
[17:19] <highvoltage> 3 is still easy to get to at least.
[17:19] <wendar> highvoltage: I mean, I'm assuming one of the +1s is actually the person who submitted it for vote
[17:20] <wendar> so, three all together is really only the same as the MOTU "get at least two others to agree this is a good idea"
[17:20] <highvoltage> wendar: ah yes, but that could also be someone from arb-helpers who submitted it
[17:20] <highvoltage> (but it would still be fine I guess)
[17:20] <wendar> yes, that's why I was making the assumption explicit
[17:21] <highvoltage> ok, sorry for stating the obvious :)
[17:21] <wendar> I'd say at least two of the +1s should be ARB members who have done a code review/security review on the package
[17:21] <wendar> the last one could be more of a sanity check
[17:22] <wendar> and really 3 will be easier to get once we recruit a few more ARB members
[17:23] <wendar> mainly, I just don't want to get bogged down in policy changes :)
[17:23] <wendar> three +1s is the current rule
[17:23] <wendar> so, we can just run with it
[17:24] <wendar> another way of thinking about it (just thinking out loud here)... the MOTU rule of two +1s assumes a third experienced packager in the process: the person who made the package
[17:25] <wendar> we don't assume the *developer* is at all experienced
[17:25] <wendar> so we add one more
[17:25] <wendar> but... hmmm
[17:25] <wendar> I could see changing the policy so the third is an arb-helper
[17:26] <wendar> so, each package has to get two +1 votes from ARB board members, and one +1 vote from the guide who raised it for vote
[17:26] <wendar> and, the guide can be either a board member or a helper
[17:27] <wendar> the ARB board members are required to be ubuntu-devs
[17:27] <wendar> but the helpers aren't
[17:27] <wendar> so, that makes the whole process more parallel to MOTU
[17:27] <highvoltage> wendar: yeah that would be good
[17:28] <wendar> highvoltage: I'd be in favor of that
[17:29] <wendar> highvoltage: we could do it "inofficially" for now, and just have one board member +1 for experienced arb-helpers, without doing a full code review
[17:30] <wendar> highvoltage: like, really, I'd confidently +1 anything dholbach submits as an arb-helper :)
[17:31] <wendar> highvoltage: especially after a couple other board members have done a code review and +1'd it
[17:31] <highvoltage> wendar: *nod*