/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/07/05/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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* bdrung will be afk for some minutes16:55
czajkowskibeuno: cprofitt shall we get started17:04
beunosure thing17:04
cprofittsure17:04
czajkowskiwhich one of you would like to chair :)17:05
czajkowski#startmeeting17:06
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Jul  5 17:06:33 2012 UTC.  The chair is czajkowski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.17:06
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired17:06
czajkowski#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda17:06
czajkowskitodays agenda17:06
czajkowskiwelcome to the CC meeting17:06
czajkowskiso who is here from the DMB ?17:07
tumbleweed!dmb-ping17:07
ubottubdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping17:07
tumbleweedhi17:07
micahghi17:07
* stgraber waves17:07
czajkowskihey folks thanks for coming17:07
czajkowskiso in past meetings and in the last cycle we've invited boards to come along and just give us an inforaml update on how things are going, any issues and if we can help in any way17:08
czajkowskiso bdrung cody-somerville Laney micahg tumbleweed stgraber care to update us17:09
micahgso, overall, think we're doing ok, I think we've only missed quorum twice in the last 6 months17:11
czajkowskithat's not bad at all.17:11
beunoapologies for the stupid question, but meeting how often?17:12
tumbleweedwe limited the number of candidates per meeting, which also seems to have helped streamline things17:12
micahgbeuno: once a fortnight17:12
czajkowskitumbleweed: oh nice idea. how does that work ?17:12
tumbleweed2 per meeting17:13
* bdrung is back17:13
tumbleweedour meetings used to run towards 2 hours each17:13
czajkowskitumbleweed: so limit the number of applicants and increase meeting frequency has worked?17:14
tumbleweedfrequency has stayed the same17:14
tumbleweedbut we used to have people hanging around, hoping we'd get to them17:14
tumbleweednow it's obvious before the meeting who is goin gto be processed17:14
cprofittis there a backlog of applicants?17:14
micahgjust DMB members at this point17:15
tumbleweedwe wish :(17:15
tumbleweedapplications are slowing17:15
beunotumbleweed, why do you think that's happening?17:16
tumbleweedthere haven't been many new contributors recently, that I've seen17:16
beunoanything that can be done to improve that?  does it need improving?17:17
micahgwell, for a while it seemed like the MOTU community has stalled17:18
tumbleweedfortunately, that's outside our control (as a board) so we should probably concentrate on other issues17:18
micahgthere were several sessions at UDS and I think we're hoping that the reinvigoration will lead to more applicants17:18
micahgdholbach has been a great help in getting these things going again17:19
czajkowskinods17:19
czajkowskiare there any areas we the CC can help in ?17:20
micahgalso, now that we have a smoother sponsorship process, as well as the number of contributors increasing, I'm hoping that in time we'll get more applicants17:21
* ScottK thinks that over the long run things like PPAs and extras.ubuntu.com have reduced the incentive to get involved in the distro.17:21
micahgScottK: yeah, well, the ARB is good about redirecting when appropriate17:21
Laneyoops, this is now17:22
ScottKYes, but it'd have been 100% redirect before (effectively).17:22
Laneyhello :-)17:22
micahgand as for PPAs, I wanted to start talking to people running specific PPAs to see if they're interested in distro work17:22
micahgwith backports being more active, that's a big help as well17:22
ScottKI've asked in the past and the response has generally been something like "why should I bother - the PPA solves my problem."17:23
cprofittthat sounds promising micahg and ScottK17:23
bdrungPPAs helped me when I started contributing to Ubuntu.17:23
micahgwell, for the people doing stuff for themselves, you probably won't get traction, but for people trying to help others, they might be interested in reaching a larger audience, also with backports enabled by default in oneiric+, that's a big impetus to use backports vs PPAs17:24
ScottKbdrung: I'm not saying PPAs aren't useful.  They are very much so, but they also have their costs.17:25
tumbleweedI'm frequently amazed by the number of PPAs people use. There must be people there worth attracting17:25
micahgyeah, it should probably be the developer advisory board that follows up on the PPA people17:25
bdrungScottK: Distro work requires sustainable contribution. PPA allow to just do one thing and then forget about it.17:25
cprofittI rarely use PPAs17:25
czajkowskitumbleweed: indeed!17:25
czajkowskiso many people use them17:25
micahgbdrung: well, no, people can do one off distro contributions as well if it suits their need17:26
micahgupload rights require sustained contribution17:26
bdrungblog post like http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/07/how-to-upgrade-to-the-latest-vlc-release-in-ubuntu-12-04 do not help17:26
micahgright, well, I didn't see a backport request for vlc 2.0.2 :)17:27
bdrungmicahg: we are more interested in sustained contribution if someone wants to get a new package in the archive17:27
micahgbdrung: sure, but I think a lot of PPAs are just the newest version of foo in the archiv17:28
bdrungmicahg: i want 2.0.2 in precise-security or -updates17:28
micahgbdrung: that probably won't happen unless you go for an MRE (but that's for another discussion)17:28
bdrungMRE?17:28
micahgMicroRelease Exception17:28
ScottKMicro Release Exception.17:28
joshuahooverralsina: any ideas on how to help a 11.10 user who is showing this in the syncdaemon log: ubuntuone.SyncDaemon.StorageClient - INFO - Connection lost, reason:  [Failure instance: Traceback (failure with no frames): <class  'OpenSSL.SSL.Error'>: [('SSL routines',  'SSL3_GET_SERVER_CERTIFICATE', 'certificate verify failed')]17:29
micahgso, back to the CC, we were wondering about the 6 month requirement for membership with regard to contributing developer17:29
czajkowskiso moving back to the DMB checkup, is there anything else you wish to say17:29
czajkowskijoshuahoover: wrong channel!17:29
micahgjoshuahoover: this is a meeting channel :)17:29
joshuahooverczajkowski, micahg: sorry about that!17:29
czajkowskimicahg: do you want to increase or decrease it or what is the issue?17:30
ralsinajoshuahoover: dobey's symlink trick?17:30
* beuno slaps ralsina 17:30
ralsinabeuno: oops17:30
micahgczajkowski: well, basically, is it a hard requirement or is it just a nice to have17:30
ScottKmicahg: Isn't that more of a guidelane than a rule?17:30
micahgScottK: that's what we're asking :)17:30
ScottK(Speaking as a Kubuntu Council member who decides such stuff I've always thought it was a guideline)17:31
czajkowskimicahg: well has it helped or do you think your numbers would be higher if it were reduced or removed?17:31
micahgczajkowski: to be honest, we haven't had many applicants going for that17:31
tumbleweedScottK: we do treat it as a guideline. But there are times when there is very little sustained contribution, but PPU still seems like a reasonable thing to grant17:32
czajkowskimicahg: can you elaborate ?17:32
cprofittwhere is the requirement for six months listed?17:32
micahgczajkowski: we don't get a lot of applicants for dev membership without upload rights17:32
ScottKtumbleweed: Personally I very uncomfortable with non-members being Ubuntu developers.17:33
ScottKI also think significant and sustained are important parts of the requirement.17:33
micahgScottK: so, I take it you don't like the DM process?17:33
ScottKmicahg: I'd feel better if PPU weren't part of ubuntu-dev.17:33
tumbleweedScottK: which would make them not members17:34
micahgcprofitt: on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership, it says that it's rare for an application to be accepted with < 6 months of contributions17:34
ScottKRight, don't make them members without significant and sustained contributions.17:34
micahgScottK: so would I :), that's the second point I wanted to bring up, but the DMB is still trying to find consensus on17:34
cprofittmicahg: how long does it take to get upload rights?17:35
ScottKI think having them not necessarily be ubuntu-dev/members makes PPU more like DM.17:35
micahgcprofitt: that depends on the second point which I wanted to bring up of decoupling upload rights from membership17:36
cprofittmicahg: I would think that getting several sponsored uploads would take a while... is it frequent that a person accomplishes this under six months?17:36
micahgcprofitt: it can be done in a matter of weeks17:36
micahgerr..several sponsored uploads17:36
ScottKIf one is already a DD, it could (technically) be very fast.17:37
cprofittto be honest I am more concerned with sustained activity than anything17:37
tumbleweedScottK: in that case, granting membership is more straightforward, I think17:37
micahgbut upload rights require good working knowledge of what's being applied for, that can be either a short time or a long one depending on the person17:37
cprofittI think we want to avoid a person who is really excited about 'package x' gets several uploads done... goes for membership and then loses the momentum17:37
micahgbut generally, we want to see someone go through an entire dev cycle (6 months) to see how the freeze schedule works17:38
ScottKtumbleweed: I disagree.  I think granting upload rights for packages they maintain is pretty straightforward.  I don't think that also means membership is straightforward.17:38
cprofittI agree there may be situations that merit things moving faster17:38
bdrungScottK: that's where decoupled upload rights and membership is a benefit17:39
ScottKyes.17:39
ScottK(for PPU)17:39
czajkowskitumbleweed: micahg Laney is there anything you want to follow up post this meeting as we do seem to have gone off track here from the check up17:40
tumbleweedScottK: yes. It does depend on the situation. I also recall debian people who care about their packages in Ubuntu and fix the bugs in debian, so there are few uploads but clear development-related involvement in our community17:40
bdrungthe question is: are we allowed to grant PPU without membership?17:40
czajkowskiwhat needs to be followed up on and posisbly reviewed17:40
LaneySorry I forgot to pay attention as I was on the phone to the stupid gas company sorting out readings17:41
* Laney grumbles17:41
ScottKbdrung: I suspect that's a TB question, but I'm not sure.17:42
Laneydo we have a resolution?17:42
LaneyI think membership is a CC thing.17:42
LaneyI've come around to kind of liking the idea of decoupling it. People can apply for both simultaneously if they want.17:42
micahgexactly17:43
beunoso17:43
beunoconceptually17:43
beunowould we want casual contributors?17:43
Laneywant for what?17:43
bdrungLaney: core-dev, MOTU should infer membership17:43
beunoas a healthy project17:43
cprofittLaney: micahg: ScottK:17:43
micahgbdrung: yes17:43
Laneybdrung: yes17:43
tumbleweedbeuno: sustained casual contributors seem to be candidates fro membership17:43
tumbleweeddrive-by, not so much17:43
beunoright17:43
micahgbeuno: of course, that's what the sponsorship process is for17:43
cprofittI think you folks should discuss this and arrange to meet with the CC again about this issue17:44
beunoif they are sustained, then the qualify for membership17:44
LaneyI think you should tell us if we're allowed to decouple it in principle and then we don't need to come back17:44
micahg+117:44
cprofittI think you should formulate a desired outcome and plan to achieve it and then have the CC take a look at it17:44
cprofittthere appears to be a great deal of depth in this topic17:44
tumbleweedI think the plan is very straightforward: Make PPU not imply membership17:44
micahgmembership requires sustained contribution, upload rights require proficiency17:45
LaneyIt would make it easier to let us grant people PPU17:45
beunobut not sustained?17:45
tumbleweedcurrently we evaluate the PPU rights, and the membership goes along for free. But we don't think that's fair on the other members who had to prove themselves17:45
Laneyjust enough for us to be convinced that they know what they're doing17:45
micahgbeuno: not necessarily (Debian Developers are the easiest example)17:45
cprofittcan we move to any other topics you have?17:46
beunoso, lets pick this up again17:46
micahgthose 2 were it AIUI17:46
LaneySo what we'd do is remove ~ubuntumembers from ~ubuntu-dev17:46
beunoschedule it17:46
Laneyerr, the other way around17:46
beunoI think it's absolutely worth discussing, if you guys feel it would help17:46
LaneyOr, think about whether these people should be in ubuntu-dev at all.17:47
beunojust need to weigh in long-term effects a bit more17:47
micahgLaney: well, it's a little more complicated than that17:47
LaneyMaybe /that/ is a question for the TB.17:47
czajkowskibeuno: perhaps email as our schedule is done for a few weeks17:47
tumbleweedI don't know of any other pressing questions from our side17:47
beunosure, email works17:48
czajkowskiI think we should follow this up after the meeting via email to discuss this further17:48
czajkowski#action beuno to start a thread with the DMB and CC to discuss the topics that have come from todays meeting17:48
meetingologyACTION: beuno to start a thread with the DMB and CC to discuss the topics that have come from todays meeting17:48
czajkowski:)17:48
beunolook at that, I win a task!  :)17:48
beunowell played17:48
czajkowskihey I got landed with chairing I feel the need to share the love!17:49
czajkowskiright moving on17:49
czajkowski#topic Juju Governance17:49
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Juju Governance
czajkowski#link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk17:49
czajkowskijcastro: ping17:49
jcastrohi17:49
czajkowskireally that link isn't helpful17:49
beunohttps://juju.ubuntu.com/CharmReviewBoard17:50
jcastrosorry I didn't know how to link the header17:50
jcastroit's the top paragraph but it's not really as important as the link beuno just posted17:50
czajkowski#link  https://juju.ubuntu.com/CharmReviewBoard17:50
beunothanks btw, Laney, micahg, tumbleweed, ScottK  :)17:51
czajkowskijcastro: so how did this idea come about17:52
czajkowskiand who would it be aimed at17:52
jcastroright so the idea would basically be for juju to be like everything else in ubuntu17:52
jcastrosince the charm store is analogous to an archive17:52
jcastroand has it's own policies and all that, then it would make sense to have it governed in the same way as ubuntu itself17:53
jcastrowe've basically been doing that the entire time17:53
jcastrobut there was no escalation process, nor a policy that was official or anything17:53
jcastroit was just a bunch of us kind of self-governing ourselves.17:53
jcastrowhich is fine when you're small, but at some point we needed to tighten things up and codify these things, hence this document17:54
beuno+1 from me, really. Makes a lot of sense, it's well layed out.17:54
cprofitt+1 from me as well... nice job to those who contributed17:54
jcastroit's mostly a clone of the existing forums process17:54
jcastrosince I didn't want to be special, just another board. :)17:54
czajkowskijcastro: so would members have to be Ubuntu members and or juju developers?17:55
jcastrothey would have to be ubuntu members17:55
jcastroand in order to even review charms they need to be in the ~charmers group17:55
czajkowski#link https://launchpad.net/~charmers17:56
beunowhich is different from a juju dev, yes>17:56
czajkowskiso there is atm 26 people and 4 pending17:56
beuno?17:56
jcastroyes17:56
beunoright, makes sense17:56
czajkowskiwhat's the difference as I'm unsure17:56
ScottKI see charms have listed maintainers.  Is that a strong maintainer like in Debian or more like a primary point of contact?17:56
jcastroprimarily a POC right now17:56
jcastrowe're trying to make it more of a strong maintainership17:57
jcastrobut we didn't have maintainers when it started17:57
jcastroso when it came down to "claim your charm!" a few people bailed17:57
ScottKThat's a bit different than we do in Ubuntu with package maintainership.17:57
cprofittso if I get this right... there would be Juju devs, Juju reviewers and the Juju Council?17:57
jcastroit's a board17:58
jcastroso there are juju core devs17:58
jcastrowho may or may not be ubuntu members17:58
jcastroand then the ~charmers, which are reviewers17:58
cprofittso if I get this right... there would be Juju devs, Juju reviewers and the Juju Board... that is correct?17:58
micahgI thought juju was bigger than Ubuntu, is this not the case?17:58
jcastroand the review board would be made up of ~charmers17:58
* cprofitt nods17:58
jcastromicahg: what do you mean?17:58
micahgjcastro: more encompassing17:59
jcastrosure, it can be17:59
cprofittmicahg: it is certainly bigger than Ubuntu, but there is also an Ubuntu part of it17:59
jcastrobut we still need a process for say, escalation, etc.17:59
beunosounds great to me18:02
cprofittme as well jcastro18:02
beunoczajkowski?18:02
czajkowskiit's intersting that;s fore sure18:03
czajkowskibut there are only 3 of us here from the CC today18:03
czajkowskiso I think we should follow up on this with the others via email18:03
czajkowskiany other comments regarding the juju board?18:04
micahgshouldn't the Ubuntu/non-Ubuntu things be clarified since wouldn't the CC only have authority over the Ubuntu part of the ecosystem18:04
czajkowskimicahg: yup thats one thing I want to clarify with the CC18:04
czajkowskibut ther are only 3/8 here atm18:04
czajkowskisorry 3/718:04
czajkowskigrr 818:05
czajkowskianything else folks?18:05
micahgeither way, no quorum :)18:05
czajkowskimicahg: bingo :)18:05
beunoI'm tempted to not have meetings with no quorum18:06
beunobut, the future18:06
beunois that a wrap up?18:06
czajkowskiyes18:06
czajkowski#endmeeting18:06
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Jul  5 18:06:35 2012 UTC.18:06
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-07-05-17.06.moin.txt18:06
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-07-05-17.06.html18:06
beunoczajkowski, so you'll take this one?18:06
czajkowskibeuno: will do18:06
beunocool18:06
beunothank you everybody!18:06
czajkowskithanks folks18:06
czajkowski<-- dinner18:07
micahgthanks czajkowski, beuno18:18
=== toddyhb is now known as toddy
s-foxping negronjl  :)21:58
negronjlHello22:00
negronjls-fox: pong22:00
s-foxhey negronjl , we're just waiting for our quorum of 4. Seem to be thin on the ground at the minute. Sorry :)22:00
negronjlNo worries.22:01
s-foxokay, i think we have 4... show of hands please for the  meeting22:02
Pendulumo/22:02
hggdho/22:02
s-foxo/22:02
iulian... and me.22:02
s-foxto be different ;)22:02
* iulian nods.22:02
hggdhI almost gave my standard ~รด~22:02
s-fox#startmeeting22:03
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Jul  5 22:03:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.22:03
meetingologyAvailable commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired22:03
s-fox[TOPIC] Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting - 22:00 UTC22:04
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting - 22:00 UTC
s-foxOkay let's start :)22:04
s-foxnegronjl is applying for ubuntu membership , can you please introduce yourself ?22:05
negronjlHi all.  I am Juan Negron (negronjl).  I currently work for Canonical as a systems integrations engineer22:06
s-foxThank you :)22:07
s-foxnegronjl,  the membership board had a question: why are you applying to the community board and not the developer board?22:07
negronjlThe devel board tgought it best to apply here so my juju contribs could be considered22:08
hggdhyes, I remember it22:08
hggdh(was fuzzy in the details, though)22:09
hggdhnegronjl: can you please give us the links to your Wiki and LP pages?22:09
negronjlWiki.ubuntu.com/JuanNegron22:10
negronjllp:~negronjl22:11
s-foxThank you :)22:12
s-fox[VOTE] negronjl for ubuntu membership?22:12
meetingologyPlease vote on: negronjl for ubuntu membership?22:12
meetingologyPublic votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)22:12
s-fox+122:12
meetingology+1 received from s-fox22:12
Pendulum+122:13
meetingology+1 received from Pendulum22:13
hggdh+1 without question! Of course, having the server team's testimonials did help ;-)22:13
meetingology+1 without question! Of course, having the server team's testimonials did help ;-) received from hggdh22:13
iulian+122:13
meetingology+1 received from iulian22:13
s-foxsorry iulian is still reading :)22:13
s-fox[ENDVOTE]22:13
meetingologyVoting ended on: negronjl for ubuntu membership?22:13
meetingologyVotes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:022:13
meetingologyMotion carried22:13
s-foxCongratulations negronjl  :)22:14
hggdhnegronjl: welcome!22:14
Pendulumnegronjl: congrats and welcome!22:15
s-foxThanks for coming everyone22:15
s-fox[ENDMEETING]22:15
=== meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Jul  5 22:15:52 2012 UTC.22:15
meetingologyMinutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-07-05-22.03.moin.txt22:15
meetingologyMinutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-07-05-22.03.html22:15
hggdhnegronjl: frankly your work on Juju more than justified you being a member22:16
s-fox+1 hggdh22:16
negronjlThank you all :)22:16
s-foxsorry for the slight delay negronjl :)22:16
hggdhnegronjl: you are welcome, and -- if I did not make myslef clear so far, I am glad you applied22:17
Davieynegronjl: Well deserved !  Good to see you in.22:18
s-foxnegronjl,  i just added you to the launchpad group :)22:25
negronjlThanks again all ... glad to be here :)22:51
IdleOneCongrats negronjl :)23:40

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