[05:46] <len-dt> ailo, automatic updates... What we turn off in xfce settings only turns off the notification of updates, the actual net traffic to find out if there are any updates still happens so long as cron/anacron is running.
[05:49] <len-dt> ailo, xchat is now connected to ubuntustudio, ubuntu, #opensourcemusicans and #xubuntu
[05:53] <knome> len-dt, automatically? humm.
[05:54] <len-dt> knome, which comment were you commenting on?
[05:55] <knome> len-dt, xchat being connected
[05:55] <ailo> len-dt: We should turn off the updates all together, wherever it's done.
[05:56] <len-dt> xchat dosen't start automatically.
[05:56] <knome> yes, nontheless. i'm not completely sure about opening with #xubuntu, still
[05:56] <len-dt> ailo, cron does that and other things
[05:59] <len-dt> Ok, not sure where to go with it then.
[05:59] <ailo> len-dt: /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/10periodic
[05:59] <ailo> APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists "1";
[05:59] <ailo> Should be "0"
[06:00] <ailo> Should be adjustable from the update manager
[06:00] <ailo> If not adjustable from any gui that is preinstalled, we might need to add that to -controls
[06:01] <ailo> There are the other options too
[06:01] <ailo> All of them should be "0"
[06:01] <ailo> If that doesn't take care of it, then I don't know
[06:02] <len-dt> from the update manager settings in the updates tab, it can be set to never.
[06:02] <ailo> len-dt: Sounds good.
[06:03] <len-dt> (also daily, weekly etc.
[06:03] <ailo> We should just make 0 default, and let the user change that later, if they want
[06:05] <knome> ailo, if you do that though, you probably should mention that somewhere visible :)
[06:06] <ailo> knome: We should probably mention it somewhere, but people who are used to multimedia work, especially audio will expect updates to be turned off by default
[06:06] <len-dt> under "care and feeding of UbuntuStudio"?
[06:06] <knome> ailo, mmh. but studio isn't just audio, is it? :) i think graphic artists, on the contrary, always want the latest tools..
[06:07] <knome> (even if that meant just bugfixed stuff - inkscape is oh so crashy anyway!)
[06:07] <ailo> The only reason to update is if something is not working in the first place
[06:07] <ailo> And then you do it manually
[06:08] <ailo> Updating is a potential danger
[06:08] <knome> checking for updates will also stop from checking for security updates too
[06:08] <len-dt> knome, ailo and I differe on this, I feel just turn cron and friends off while recording and on when not, ailo feels it should just work
[06:08] <ailo> That's important for server people, not multimedia people
[06:08] <knome> wait... security is not important for ubuntu studio users?
[06:09] <ailo> knome: Give me an example of such an update
[06:09] <len-dt> it depends if the net is connected.
[06:09] <ailo> There's no reason to change something that already works
[06:09] <knome> ailo, say, a firefox update that fixes a security bug that could damage your data.
[06:10] <ailo> It's still best to have it off by default
[06:10] <knome> i don't believe there is much need to justify security updates
[06:11] <ailo> I haven't seen a single update that has had that sort of impact on a LTS, other than in theory
[06:11] <ailo> Or any release for that matter
[06:11] <ailo> Also, if you want to keep your box tidy and working, you might do as holstein. Keep the same install for years, without updating
[06:12] <ailo> Graphics artist might install more often
[06:12] <knome> it's your choice. i'm just giving some insight
[06:12] <knome> just please remember ubuntu studio is just not for audio
[06:12] <knome> if it is, please rename it as ubuntu music studio
[06:13] <ailo> len-dt: My view is that if you can do it without modes, why use modes?
[06:13] <ailo> len-dt: No reason to add complexity, if not needed
[06:13] <ailo> The less the user needs to worry about the better
[06:14] <len-dt> ailo, I know, there are two sides... I could argue with myself... and loose
[06:14] <knome> "this site says ubuntu receives security and other updates, but i haven't seen a single one... am i insecure?"
[06:14] <knome> s'pose that's not worrying :)
[06:15] <ailo> Frankly, having updates on Ubuntu Studio seemed unproffesional to me
[06:15] <knome> again i believe that's from the audio POV?
[06:16] <ailo> Suitable for a web browsing computer, but not for a workstation meant to use all of the system performance for only what you are using it for directly
[06:16] <ailo> You don't want popups
[06:16] <ailo> It's better to have manual control instead
[06:16] <knome> i'm not saying it should be on all the time
[06:16] <ailo> If someone wants to update, just do it
[06:16] <knome> just make it clear that the updates are really turned off
[06:16] <ailo> The update manager is still there for anyone who wants to use it
[06:18] <ailo> For audio the problem is of course most relevant. You don't want to start recording, and find an automatic update caused clicks in your recording, especially if you can't do retakes
[06:19] <knome> of course
[06:19] <len-dt> ailo, ok, so why do we run popularity-contest, logrotate? (check out /etc/cron.daily)
[06:19] <ailo> len-dt: Don't ask me :)
[06:19] <len-dt> And there are others.
[06:19] <ailo> The intial configuration should be as good as it can get for any workflow you choose to do
[06:20] <ailo> Tweaks beyond that should either be for troubleshooting, or for personal preference
[06:22] <ailo> len-dt: I've never really had a look at what processes Ubuntu Studio has. I do feel that during Gnome2, the system was very minimal and responsive, having much less bloat than Ubuntu. Since we went for XFCE, I haven't really had the time to investigate. Have only been using user desktops, and haven't gone through the trouble of installing a production machine, as I will need to before this autumn
[06:23] <ailo> Computers are a bit faster now, and many things change
[06:23] <len-dt> ailo, that was my feeling the first time I ever looked at ps x
[06:24] <len-dt> ailo, Computers are a bit faster, but running more extravagant software negates that.
[06:25] <len-dt> ubuntu tries to automate everything. It takes cpu cycles
[06:26] <ailo> len-dt: Maybe not. Even with high cpu load, you don't nessecarily get any problems. It all depends on what prio the processes have and what they are doing, etc.
[06:27] <ailo> Last year, with gnome-shell, or unity, on a standard Ubuntu install, with the -lowlatency, I had no problems. The kernel was a bit more responsive back then too
[06:29] <len-dt> ailo, one example. rtirq sets priorities... snd first then USB. one user has a PCI sound interface, the other has a USB interface. rtirq is wrong for one of them.
[06:29] <ailo> I think you might not have gotten better results with a super minimal desktop, maybe not even without graphics at all
[06:30] <ailo> len-dt: Yea. It's not good if it causes problems.
[06:31] <ailo> As often, it doesn't even solve any
[06:31] <ailo> For some it's essential
[06:31] <ailo> I was thinking about the possibility of a gui control for it
[06:31] <len-dt> Thats what modes is.
[06:32] <len-dt> Two settings, one click to change.
[06:32] <ailo> How does that change the rtirq?
[06:32] <ailo> Also, maybe the script could be enhanced
[06:32] <len-dt> Run it against two configs of need be.
[06:34] <ailo> I have no problem with investigating modes. I'm all for it. But, I don't think it's the place to start off. Rather the place to end up in as a last resort
[06:35] <len-dt> I'm 50/50 on that... one of my machines needs it for sure the other has less uses and so doesn't.
[06:36] <len-dt> A desktop machine with one use in mind, just needs permanent tweaks.
[06:36] <ailo> I'd rather see about fixing everything that can be fixed statically first
[06:37] <ailo> Damn, it's not even hot here, and I'm sweating
[06:38] <len-dt> this is our first warm weekend... we are all to hot.
[06:41] <len-dt> a laptop that gets used for everything from games and browsing to maybe some accounting with sql running and oh by the way we want to be able to record or run the guitar through it too, needs an off switch for all the junk
[06:42] <len-dt> Even while accounting with sql turned on, it might be nice to turn everything else off.
[06:43] <len-dt> (SQL eats memory worse than almost anything)
[06:44] <ailo> I guess it's kind of a nice feature to be able to get good performance, even when the system is totally messed up :). But it's also a bit up to the user. Even if the initial install is super, it is possible to mess it up
[06:45] <len-dt> It is not messed up just because the user wants to use the system more than one way.
[06:45] <ailo> I haven't looked more closely into the mods thing, but from what I've gathered, there are things that get turned off that you might not want to
[06:45] <len-dt> The main user of US will want just an audio machine or just video
[06:46] <len-dt> They will want to set and forget.
[06:46] <ailo> I don't think used modes is a good "general" approach anyway
[06:46] <ailo> suing*
[06:47] <len-dt> uh oh it s legal action now ;-)
[06:47] <ailo> hehe
[06:47] <ailo> using*
[06:48] <ailo> But let's say there is a mode that gets automatically turned on with jack
[06:48] <ailo> And you can tweak what the mode will do
[06:49] <ailo> The initial mode should be more or less what a normal install would be
[06:49] <ailo> In a preference window you could choose to toggle things off
[06:50] <len-dt> Ya.
[06:50] <len-dt> Thats the idea.
[06:50] <ailo> I could live with that. Especially if I didn't need to bother even knowing it happened, as long as I didn't need to
[06:51] <ailo> We could add the mode preferences to -controls
[06:51] <len-dt> That would be a good place.
[06:51] <ailo> And if a workflow bar is ever created, the -controls could live there
[06:53] <ailo> len-dt: A system like that might become the envy of the linux audio world ;)
[06:53] <len-dt> Could do that or even be a part of it... but two separate pieces would be more flexable.
[06:53] <ailo> I'm going to try keep -controls in modules as much as possible
[06:54] <ailo> There's a menu in the indicator bar, but the menu items are each separate programs
[06:54] <len-dt> No need for envy... anyone can have it ;-)   (I get the drift)
[06:55] <ailo> So, a mode preference item would also be a separate program
[06:55] <ailo> The menu would mostly just open them
[06:55] <ailo> Also, the icon in the menu might change color if there is something wrong
[06:55] <len-dt> I would like the naming to be generic so it could get used even outside audio.
[06:56] <ailo> I did a startup script last year for checking if the system was well tweaked for audio. If it wasn't, a popup after booting would let you know you should configure using -controls
[06:56] <len-dt> The mode program I have been using is a tray item, The icon in the tray shows what the mode is. When clicked on there is a drop down menu to choose the new mode.
[06:56] <ailo> Ok
[06:57] <ailo> I think I'd rather have the mode enabled with jack, and that in preferences, you can make it not run
[06:57] <len-dt> one of the dropdown menu items should/will be the config part. (call it controls or whatever.
[06:58] <ailo> I think a config window should be enough
[06:58] <len-dt> The actual mode change is done with a CLI command. so it would be possible to have Jack prerun it.
[06:58] <len-dt>  and post stop it.
[06:59]  * len-dt does simple stuff... as few lines as he can.
[06:59] <ailo> simple is best :)
[07:00] <len-dt> anyway, it is late for me, midnight, I should go to keep wife warm...
[07:00] <len-dt> GN
[07:00] <ailo> GN len-dt 
[14:30] <holstein> ailo: yup... the idea of ven upgrading my production rig to 12.04 is daunting
[14:30] <holstein> "if it aint broke", ya know?
[14:31] <holstein> i think we are just mostly audio guys here, which is not bad necessarily
[14:32] <holstein> i look forward to cultivating some more video heavy users
[14:32] <len-dt> Its good for me I am learning lots ;-)
[14:32] <holstein> i know Scott was doing some video
[14:33] <len-dt> video takes a whole different artistic bent.
[14:33] <holstein> its such a commitment... new software and workflow
[14:34] <holstein> i cant casually keep up with it to provide better support
[14:34] <holstein> well... i could, but im not going to take the tie it would take
[14:34] <len-dt> The videos I have seen from Scott so far, show good use of of tools, but the content is less than stellar. Good how to stuff.
[14:34] <holstein> yup... he's doing great at learning the ropes and showing what can be done
[14:36] <len-dt> It is like me with keyboards, I can make a few chords and understand the midi specs and what it does... but I am no keyboard player
[14:36] <holstein> you N.A.R.K. !
[14:37] <holstein> im a nark and a narg
[14:37] <holstein> not a real keyboardist/guitarist :)
[14:37] <len-dt> :-)
[14:38] <holstein> i can do OK at fielding some midi questions
[14:38] <len-dt> I could say the same... it is easy to see what I can't do.
[14:38] <holstein> i can help folks find things too.. but with video, i got no clue
[14:39] <len-dt> Ya, if the program description says video it might work...
[14:39] <holstein> that too... and you might not be able to use one program for everything
[14:39] <len-dt> If it says "player" probably not.
[14:41] <len-dt> I do have a pretty good idea how a video workflow goes, I used to work in TV, but it was all analog.
[14:41] <len-dt> early 80s
[14:41] <holstein> yeah, its all different
[14:41] <holstein> i feel like if you know a professional workflow for audio, JACK really makes sense
[14:41] <len-dt> Just not all real time-ish
[14:41] <holstein> some of the other stuff we have too... im not sure that is true for video
[14:43] <len-dt> The one thing I find missing from video equipment is timecode
[14:43] <len-dt> The video to sound has to be synced by eye.
[14:44] <len-dt> We used to run TC cables to everything.
[14:44] <len-dt> One master clock
[14:45] <holstein> gtg... bbl! :)
[14:45] <ailo_> len-dt: No work on that? midi? jack? lv2?
[14:46] <len-dt> It has to do with the camera hardware
[14:46] <len-dt> I think the video file format can handle it ok.
[14:47] <len-dt> But the TC has to be added at the camera for it to be any use.
[14:48] <len-dt> And as with audio, any two cameras will drift with time from each other.
[14:50] <len-dt> For short videos it doesn't matter as we are not as sensitive to video/audio match up as we are to stereo match up for example.
[14:51] <ailo_> Recording sync is one thing
[14:52] <ailo_> Mixing another
[14:52] <ailo_> Both need to have sync
[14:53] <len-dt> In audio SW we keep very close tabs on latency so we can keep sync, I don't know that video SW pays as much attention.
[14:55] <len-dt> Maybe it doesn't need to. A video that just has one shot from start to finish (goes around the world?) would be boring.
[14:57] <ailo_> The timecode needs to be relevant
[14:57] <ailo_> Otherwise, how will you know where to cut in audio?
[14:57] <len-dt> The workflow might change depending on the material for video. A live event starts with the audio and puts video on top, a movie starts with video and does audio after.
[14:58] <len-dt> in the video world the timecode is based on real time.
[14:58] <len-dt> Real time as in wall clock
[16:36] <len-dt> ailo_, in the blue prints there is mention of removing thunar or at least replacing it for the desktop.
[16:36] <len-dt> The list of things that depend on it is quite long.