[19:42] <ailo> Seems like Fedora people are working on a PA/jack app
[20:18] <scott-work> ailo: do you have a link?
[20:27] <ailo> scott-work: No, someone just mentioned it on opensourcemusicians
[20:27] <ailo> They are also packaging falktx app, Cadence
[20:28] <scott-work> that's cool :)  i'm happy for him
[21:27] <ailo> I should probably extend the documentation for the sound system on Ubuntu. Since I use so little of it myself, makes me not realize some things
[21:27] <ailo> Didn't realize alsa works fine for many apps
[21:28] <len-dt> ailo, so long as something else isn't using it at the same time.
[21:29] <ailo> Not unlike jack, not that long ago
[21:29] <len-dt> Jack still blocks the alsa port it uses.
[21:30] <len-dt> PA is different. It doesn;t block, but gets blocked if you use the port it is using.
[21:32] <ailo> len-dt: jack has code in it that does that these days, suspending PA, if you set it to use the same device
[21:32] <ailo> Wasn't like that before
[21:32] <ailo> If you started jack when PA had that device, jack would not start
[21:33] <ailo> Also, the other way around
[21:33] <len-dt> I see. 
[21:33] <len-dt> In any case there is a lot of confusion around jack, pulse alsa
[21:34] <ailo> Problem with alsa is that there's very little visible from guis
[21:34] <ailo> So, you need to know what's under the hood to get alsa
[21:34] <ailo> I mean, even from a laymans perspective
[21:35] <len-dt> The problem with alsa from desktop POV is that only one app can use it at a time. So if system sounds grabs it nothting else can.
[21:35] <ailo> Would make sense to have alsa tools just as we hace jack, and PA tools
[21:35] <len-dt> Pulse and jack mix more than one input.
[21:36] <len-dt> The alsa tools are there... just not GUI.
[21:36] <ailo> alsa wasn't like that before, I mean as a desktop sound system. But I don't really understand what is a alsa desktop sounds system
[21:36] <ailo> So, maybe I got something wrong now. Apps that support alsa have the alsa interface builtin, so they don't need any alsa server in between
[21:37] <ailo> That is why they grab the entire card
[21:37] <len-dt> Yup, that I figured out
[21:37] <len-dt> That is why arts, pulse etc showed up.
[21:38] <ailo> Which was the system before PA, arts?
[21:38] <ailo> Debian Squeeze doesn't have PA, I think?
[21:38] <len-dt> arts was kde
[21:38] <ailo> Oh, right
[21:39] <len-dt> There was another one gnome used.
[21:39] <len-dt> (yet another one)
[21:40] <ailo> So, it's always the app the chooses the audio device, when using alsa directly
[21:40] <astraljava> esound?
[21:40] <ailo> And no need for any other gui, except a mixer
[21:40] <len-dt> Yup
[21:40] <len-dt> astraljava, that sounds right
[21:41] <len-dt> qas has a nice mixer
[21:45] <len-dt> Actually the xfce mixer works ok for that too.
[21:45] <ailo> The last I looked at it, it looked fine
[21:46] <ailo> The docs just need more clarification on using Alsa with applications
[21:46] <ailo> More clarification in general
[21:46] <len-dt> ailo, just a thought. We were talking about setting PA not to start with the session. The only problem is that if the user selects sound settings from the tray icon, pavucontrol starts pulse anyway...
[21:47] <ailo> len-dt: Why would we want to disable pulse?
[21:47] <len-dt> There seem to be a whole lot of people asking how to get rid of PA
[21:48] <ailo> Ah, you mean how to it properly, after an install
[21:48] <len-dt> I was thinking of a conversation with a user we had a day or two ago.
[21:48] <ailo> Never tried to do that much myself
[21:48] <ailo> I figure, if someone really doesn't need multi application desktop audio, then maybe there would be a point to get rid of PA completely
[21:49] <len-dt> PA doesn't cause problems that I can see. The bridging can if PA/alsa is not set up right
[21:49] <len-dt> Once I have PA/alsa set up right, even bridging doesn't seem to have any impact
[21:51] <ailo> pasuspender does suspend PA, but once you try to start a web browser with flash, the flash audio plugin part gets stuck
[21:51] <len-dt> ailo, another topic... Scott has mentioned adding various apps in the bluprint... should we jsut add them?
[21:51] <len-dt> As it should
[21:52] <ailo> len-dt: Why not. We should not add the apps to the seeds without asking on the list, I guess
[21:53] <ailo> PA doesn't interrupt alsa AFAICS, when pasuspender is used
[21:53] <len-dt> if you are recording a vocal to tape the studio speakes should be off too, so with flash... it is still flick the right switch.
[21:53] <ailo> I think pasuspender is a nice short term solution
[21:54] <len-dt> Recording audio with a computer still requires some intelligence, just as recording to tape.
[21:54] <ailo> The Fedora audio people are probably going to create a gui with a start/stop for PA
[21:54] <ailo> I agree. 
[21:54] <ailo> But it depends a bit on what you are doing
[21:55] <ailo> If you do multi channel studio recording, you need to know a lot of things
[21:55] <ailo> Can't just expect the tools to do things for you
[21:55] <len-dt> yes. A clear display of what is on and off would be nice.
[21:56] <len-dt> A switch panel
[21:58] <ailo> We could add that to controls. We just need to find a good way to shut off PA, and keep it shut off
[21:59] <len-dt> pasuspender will do that. Just tie it to a script that does wait forever.
[21:59] <ailo> There may be some problems still
[21:59] <len-dt> Kill the script when it should restart.
[22:00] <ailo> Actually, when I come to think about it, starting PA apps may cause xruns for jack, when using the same card, even if PA us suspended. Would need some testing
[22:02] <holstein> does this need tested in 12.10?
[22:02] <holstein> can we use 12.04 to test?
[22:02]  * holstein still running 10.04 ;)
[22:03] <holstein> i have a normal ubuntu 12.04 install, but i rarely use it
[22:03] <ailo> holstein: 12.04 should be fine
[22:03] <ailo> Doesn't seem like much has changed yet. Same jack version
[22:03] <frewsxcv> Anyone know a good software synthesizer for Linux?
[22:04] <len-dt> Most of the changes in 12.10 are xfce from .8 to .10
[22:04] <holstein> i need to go back to a testing partition on a seperate hard drive
[22:04] <ailo> frewsxcv: You could ask on #ubuntustudio or perhaps #opensourcemusicians, would be more appropriate
[22:04] <holstein> frewsxcv: zynadd, yoshimi... some soundfont player that plays whatever samples you want... linux sampler
[22:04] <holstein> xsynth, whysynth
[22:05] <frewsxcv> ailo: Yeah good call
[22:05] <holstein> i would try and catch [lsd] in #opensourcemusicians.. he's my go to MIDI guy
[22:05] <holstein> http://wootangent.net/category/music/tutorials/
[22:05] <holstein> ^^ thats from [lsd]'s site
[22:07] <ailo> Hey, that's a good site
[22:07] <ailo> I'll add it to our community wiki
[22:08] <holstein> yup.. he's quite the guru
[22:08] <len-dt> :) I was waiting for that...
[22:11] <frewsxcv> I remember the early days of this channel
[22:11] <frewsxcv> We'd have Tremulous tournaments
[22:12] <holstein> i had some nice tremulous battles over the holidays this past year.. with my family
[22:12] <frewsxcv> Does cory kantos still stop by?
[22:27] <astraljava> Kontros*, and no I don't think so. Haven't seen his nick in years, probably.
[22:28] <astraljava> All the oldies are gone; joejaxx, and the other founder... But that one gentleman from France just stopped by the other month.
[22:29] <astraljava> Come to think of it, Dan isn't here either, anymore.
[22:29] <astraljava> So it's probably Luke who's the senior in rank now. :)
[22:31] <astraljava> ttoine is the nick I was thinking of.
[23:56] <ailo> Apparently for me, jack did not suspend PA anymore
[23:57] <ailo> Only works if no app is using PA