[00:07] <alazare619> anyone here build ubuntu/xubuntu from scratch
[00:10] <ochosi> do i look like a buildbot? :)
[00:10] <astraljava> This channel is filled with various bots.
[00:10] <astraljava> Just sayin'...
[00:11] <ochosi> haha
[00:11] <Unit193> He'll call anyone a bot.
[00:13] <alazare619> looking for someone that has built it from scratch with the livecd-rootfs tools i can build the chroot no problem its building the iso is where i have an issue
[08:06] <ochosi> morning everyone
[08:07] <astraljava> o/
[08:09] <elfy> morning 
[08:59] <astraljava> Meetings wikipage is not updated. Shouldn't we have the next one tomorrow, or am I out of my mind even worse than usual?
[09:06] <ochosi> astraljava: i think you're right
[09:07] <ochosi> knome: what about tomorrow's meeting?
[09:07] <ochosi> astraljava: (i updated the agenda with new items though)
[09:23] <mr_pouit> https://launchpad.net/~degeneracypressure/+archive/abiword
[09:23] <mr_pouit> the ppa description is interesting
[09:23] <ochosi> nice
[09:26] <mr_pouit> astraljava: x and y coordinates come from xrandr, iirc there's no left/right/above/below notion
[09:28] <astraljava> ochosi: Oh, right. I suppose it's because that last meeting wasn't held, IIRC.
[09:29] <ochosi> astraljava: yes
[09:31] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, that's what I figured. So for me to add the functionality of those, I need to calculate the correct x and y coordinates for both outputs.
[09:34] <ochosi> but it's not so hard, i mean "right of screen1" just means you have to add the x-resolution of screen1 as starting-value for screen2
[09:34] <ochosi> i have this stored in xfconf like that at work so that i get my two screens set up correctly
[09:35] <mr_pouit> same here (unsurprisingly :p)
[09:35] <astraljava> ochosi: No, like I said, it's not that hard.
[09:36] <mr_pouit> it's ugly to manage more than 2 screens with comboboxes though
[09:36] <astraljava> Just it has to have all the options covered; changing the other display as primary -> swap (recalculate if not identical) coordinates etc.
[09:37] <ochosi> mr_pouit: but it's a rare use-case. if it works for most users, it's already an improvement
[09:37] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, I suppose I'll add support for two screens at first. :)
[09:37] <astraljava> I don't know what'd be the best way to provide support for multiple, to be honest.
[09:38] <ochosi> ppl who have such a rare-usecase can fiddle with xfconf :)
[09:39] <astraljava> Heheh.
[09:40] <ochosi> as long as we provide basic support for two screens, which is a really typical scenario these days, i'm happy
[09:40] <astraljava> I'll see if I can make progress with it tonight.
[09:44] <ochosi> great
[09:46] <astraljava> Wiki page updated, reminder posted.
[09:48] <ochosi> fiddling with glade xml in a text-editor is just _fun_
[09:52] <astraljava> Oh yeah, about the glade template, the "Use this output" was not a checkbox anymore, I wondered about that, but I suppose that's how it's wanted these days. I made the mirror thing as one, though.
[09:53] <ochosi> wait, what abou tthe use-this-output checkbox?
[09:54] <astraljava> It seemed to be a button instead of a checkbox these days.
[09:54] <ochosi> a toggle-button?
[09:54] <astraljava> Might have been, yeah.
[09:54] <ochosi> and where did you see that?
[09:55] <astraljava> In glade, in the quantal sources.
[09:55] <ochosi> in the glade file of ubuntu's dialog you mean?
[09:55] <astraljava> Yeah.
[09:55] <ochosi> k
[09:56] <astraljava> Err... Ubuntu dialog? I mean, I apt-get sourced xfce4-settings, which is the source package that holds the display-dialogs.
[09:56] <ochosi> a-ha
[09:56] <ochosi> i didn't realize there were changes to it
[09:56] <ochosi> well ok, in that case keep it as a toggle
[09:57] <astraljava> Right. Yeah wasn't gonna change that, but would you like the mirror thingie as such, too?
[09:57] <astraljava> To keep it consitent?
[09:57] <astraljava> consistent*
[09:57] <ochosi> i guess yes
[09:57] <astraljava> Ok.
[09:57] <ochosi> as soon as it's ported to gtk3 there will be the gtkswitch widget anyway..
[09:58] <astraljava> Yeah ok.
[10:12] <ochosi> gah, parole seems to be a can of worms :(
[10:13] <ochosi> while i can fix the main interface, that seems to screw up the fullscreen-interface, oh how i hate you glade!
[10:28] <astraljava> Not a big fan of it either.
[10:29] <ochosi> shit, parole's code is really scattered all over the place
[10:29] <ochosi> now i see why nobody wanted to touch it
[10:39]  * astraljava doesn't even recall it, maybe it is really off-putting...
[10:39] <astraljava> ;)
[10:41] <ochosi> well it's unexpectedly difficult to just play with the UI
[11:24] <ochosi> ok, finally managed to make parole look better
[11:30] <ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-07102012-013038pm.php
[11:31] <ochosi> apart from the stupid statusbar it's pretty close to as it should be
[11:31] <elfy> that does look better - will mine have free toast? 
[11:32] <ochosi> maybe, you'll have to try to find out :)
[11:32] <elfy> :)
[11:32] <ochosi> if only i could move the stupid playtime stuff from the statusbar to the control-bar
[11:33] <ochosi> but i think that might turn out too difficult for me
[11:40] <astraljava> mr_pouit: micahg: What your opinion re: bug #1019621? Could we get this done? The abiword maintainer over at the Debian-side weighed in on the matter in the comments.
[11:48] <mr_pouit> (msevior is an upstream abiword developer afaik)
[11:50] <astraljava> Oh ok, sorry, I think he himself used maintainer in the comment, so made a wrong link in mind.
[12:05] <knome> ochosi, astralkava: yes, the next meeting should be tomorrow. sorry for not updating the page
[12:05] <knome> astraljava, btw, it's 11th tomorrow.
[12:05] <astraljava> grr...
[12:06] <knome> astraljava, well, i fixed the wikipage and sent a fixing email
[12:06] <astraljava> Ahh... you updated it, thanks.
[12:12] <mr_pouit> astraljava: yeah, I'm for the revert (micahg disagrees though). But staying in sync with Debian is also less work from us. :P I've replied to the bug report anyway.
[12:16] <astraljava> mr_pouit: Thanks. What is the entity that calls the shots on this?
[12:20] <mr_pouit> the sru team (and the release team)
[12:20] <mr_pouit> however, I don't think this is feasible (nor reasonable) to revert with a SRU
[12:21] <astraljava> Yeah. I suppose it's more valuable to spend time in actually fixing the bugs.
[12:31] <Unit193> Meeting for tomorrow isn't on either calendar...
[12:33] <astraljava> Does the calendar support reoccurance?
[12:33] <knome> Unit193, the calendars are still WIP.
[12:33] <astraljava> ...or whatever the correct term is...
[12:34] <knome> Unit193, no-one said "start following this and you'll get all updates"
[12:34] <Unit193> No, but I'm saying it now in case you didn't know.
[12:43] <knome> i knew.
[12:44] <knome> well yes and no. basically, i'm not counting on the calendar. yet.
[13:47] <micahg> mr_pouit: the whole abiword thing is a mess, do you have any idea if the new snapshot is ABI compatible with 2.9.2?  additionally, I'm concerned as you mentioned in the bug report about "upgrades" from 2.9.2 to 2.8.6
[13:58] <mr_pouit> micahg: and 2.9.x uses gtk3 whereas 2.8.x gtk2, so messy++ (as much as I'd like to revert, I fear things will get worse)
[14:01] <micahg> mr_pouit: right, so I think our best shot is an SRU if it's ABI compatible
[19:00] <pleia2> moo.com is having a 30% off everything summer sale, in case anyone else wants to order the spiffy xubuntu stickers
[19:00] <pleia2> (as their sales go, this is a pretty good one)
[19:01] <ochosi> pleia2: thanks a lot for the stickers!!
[19:01] <ochosi> pleia2: arrived today and my flatmate loved it :)
[19:02] <genii-around> Hm. Only us.moo.com, no ca.moo.com
[19:02] <pleia2> ochosi: welcome :) I fear I may have forgotten to include the UW ones
[19:02] <pleia2> genii-around: they're a uk company, but they ship internationally
[19:03] <genii-around> pleia2: Ah, OK
[19:14] <ochosi> pleia2: true, but no biggy
[19:18] <micahg> pleia2: holy cow!
[19:21] <astraljava> Yeah, I concur. To forget the UW ones?! Come... ooon!
[19:48] <cc_INC> Will we see some awesome Xubuntu t-shirts in the near future or is that a DIY thing too just like the stickers?! :)
[19:49] <pleia2> we'll use a site like zazzle.com or something so people can click to order
[19:49] <pleia2> stickers are cheap to make and ship, shirts less so
[19:52] <cc_INC> That's true. But then again a shirt is a better way to promote Xubuntu
[19:52] <cc_INC> I think the costs are higher but the results might be effecient??
[19:53] <Unit193> Local person does shirts, wonder how that'd go.
[19:54] <pleia2> I can't actually afford to bankroll all Xubuntu marketing efforts :)
[19:56] <cc_INC> Something like Spreadshirt might work...there are a few on-line stores that carry the same concept as spreadshirt
[19:57] <cc_INC> But perhaps that's something for the future :)
[19:57] <pleia2> thanks, added that link to our list of vendors to consider on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Products
[19:58] <cc_INC> No probs.
[22:42] <ochosi> GridCube: ping
[22:42] <GridCube> ochosi, :) pong
[22:42] <ochosi> hey
[22:42] <GridCube> sup?
[22:43] <ochosi> for one, i wanted to say that we changed the default playmode from "shuffle" to something that makes more sense in gmusicbrowser
[22:43] <ochosi> it'll land in 12.10, but if you do a clean install from our ppa, you can test that already
[22:43] <GridCube> :) ok
[22:44]  * micahg hides
[22:44] <Unit193> Hah, I just did too!
[22:44] <ochosi> hehe, micahg will upload the changes to quantal soon ;)
[22:44] <GridCube> i dont know if you know but we decided with knome that i should step aside from this case because im not objetive enough, so someone else should be taking care of it now
[22:45] <ochosi> ok, no i didn't know
[22:45] <ochosi> but in any way, it does not matter for this specific point
[22:45] <GridCube> :) 
[22:45] <GridCube> i understand
[22:45] <ochosi> because it was your request, and it'll be implemented in 12.10 :)
[22:45] <GridCube> :D
[22:46] <ochosi> micahg: fwiw, i'm working with the gmb-dev to narrow the gap between the patches debian/ubuntu carries and upstream
[22:46] <micahg> cool
[22:46] <ochosi> GridCube: so even if you step aside this now, it is important you know that your comments didn't go unheard or anything
[22:47] <GridCube> can you make it use the "now playing" playlist by the default? like the one in the "directory and archives" skin?
[22:47] <ochosi> GridCube: tbh i wasn't even aware of the fact that gmusicbrowser was shipped with shuffle on by default
[22:47] <GridCube> :) thank you very much ochosi 
[22:47] <GridCube> well... it was :P
[22:47] <ochosi> i know that now :)
[22:48] <ochosi> for now it'll play in the same order it displays the songs by default
[22:48] <GridCube> :)
[22:48] <GridCube> good that will make it less confusing :D
[22:48] <ochosi> but: the user can always change display and/or sort order
[22:48] <GridCube> thats ok, thats expected to happen, users should know and control whatever happens on their computers
[22:49] <ochosi> good, nice to find some common ground there
[22:49] <GridCube> :)
[22:50] <ochosi> i also considered your other comments more, and after a while i realized that parole plays streams as well
[22:51] <GridCube> mmhm, in a topic that might sound a bit late, but, parole doesnt integrate with firefox to play streams online, totem does, and vlc too
[22:52] <ochosi> yeah, i know
[22:52] <ochosi> it's not that late
[22:52] <ochosi> i think it was mentioned in the roadmap
[22:52] <ochosi> vlc is not an option for obvious reasons (qt etc)
[22:53] <ochosi> totem is deeply integrated like most gnome3 stuff nowadays, not sure how many dependencies it would bring
[22:53] <GridCube> mmhm
[22:53] <GridCube> i've seen a xine plugin too
[22:53] <GridCube> never tried it tho
[22:53] <ochosi> yes, not sure about its state
[22:53] <ochosi> feel free to test it and report back
[22:53] <GridCube> :) ok
[22:54] <GridCube> at least we could create a kind of link to open streams with parole?
[22:54] <ochosi> probably
[22:54] <ochosi> would need some investigation
[22:54] <ochosi> btw, this might interest you: http://bryanquigley.com/reviews/12-04-music-player-review-init
[22:54] <pleia2> ooh, lots of people around
[22:54] <ochosi> not sure how good it'll be though
[22:54] <ochosi> ahoi pleia2  :)
[22:55] <GridCube> :) hello pleia2 :D
[22:55] <GridCube> thanks for the stickers
[22:55] <pleia2> for a presentation on saturday: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/xubuntu-feltonlug.pdf
[22:55] <Unit193> parole had a plugin...
[22:55] <pleia2> draft :) if you have comments or stuff you need me to add for your section, please let me know
[22:56] <pleia2> GridCube: welcome :)
[23:00] <GridCube> :) nice presentation
[23:01] <ochosi> pleia2: i'm not a native speaker, but "Based around
[23:01] <ochosi> "?
[23:01] <ochosi> i thought "based on" or maybe "built around"
[23:02] <pleia2> I said "around" because it's an "environment"
[23:02] <pleia2> but any of those work really
[23:02] <ochosi> right, happy to learn new phrases really :)
[23:02] <pleia2> but I'm American, we mostly just speak bad english
[23:03] <ochosi> lol
[23:03] <pleia2> either way, I was missing a "the" in there
[23:04] <ochosi> hehe
[23:06] <ochosi> pleia2: slide 14, maybe pluralize that "default
[23:06] <ochosi> Xubuntu theme
[23:06] <ochosi> "
[23:06] <ochosi> arr, sorry, for the linebreakes
[23:06]  * ochosi has to stop copy-pasting from pdf
[23:06] <pleia2> good, done
[23:09] <pleia2> I also haven't looked into this "new application finder in 4.10" and catfish.. are they the same thing?
[23:09] <ochosi> no, they aren't
[23:09] <pleia2> catfish is a more search tool, not app finder
[23:09] <ochosi> actually there are many more comments i could give
[23:10] <ochosi> if you want
[23:10] <pleia2> please :)
[23:10] <ochosi> ok
[23:10] <pleia2> I pretty much went from my brain, and the website, to gather this stuff
[23:10] <ochosi> ok
[23:10] <ochosi> well i think that in a way it's optimistic to say that we're doing much more than compiling software
[23:11] <ochosi> (referring to slide 11's title, "programming and packaging", imo it's mostly the latter)
[23:11]  * pleia2 nods
[23:11] <ochosi> although this might be fine, but "outsiders" sometimes tend to think we really do a lot of programming
[23:11] <ochosi> and then they have requests and we always redirect them upstream
[23:12] <ochosi> which is neither wrong nor entirely bad, but frustrating for those people
[23:12] <ochosi> (i think)
[23:12] <ochosi> good example is the "integrate catfish in thunar" discussion on the ml recently
[23:12] <ochosi> your slide 9 is far more realistic i think
[23:12] <ochosi> i like that a lot
[23:12] <pleia2> in what I actually say during this presentation I'll draw a more clear distinction between what we do and what should be done upstream
[23:13] <ochosi> because that describes what we do much more accurately
[23:13] <ochosi> okeydokey :)
[23:13] <pleia2> programmers are needed to write bug fixes and backport things, but I'll direct most programmers upstream
[23:13] <ochosi> slide 14: what do you mean with "contribute to xfce-look"?
[23:13] <ochosi> we do that or people should do that?
[23:14] <pleia2> it's a way to contribute to the xubuntu ecosystem
[23:14] <pleia2> if they don't want to work on shimmer
[23:14] <pleia2> where do we get our non-default themes?
[23:15] <pleia2> xfce-look is one of the things mentioned on http://xubuntu.org/contribute/marketing/
[23:15] <ochosi> currently we don't get them
[23:15] <ochosi> i'm working on that
[23:15] <ochosi> but i'm not willing to include themes that aren't maintained
[23:15] <ochosi> personally i dislike xfce-look because it's sooo messy
[23:15] <pleia2> it is a bit :\
[23:16] <Unit193> And has nothing that is compatible with GTK2 and 3
[23:16] <ochosi> yeah, there a few criteria for accepting a new theme into our install
[23:17] <ochosi> (maybe we should also make those more public)
[23:17] <ochosi> 1) supports xfce, gtk2, gtk3
[23:17] <ochosi> 2) is maintained (i.e. over more than one release)
[23:17] <ochosi> 3) good quality
[23:18] <ochosi> the last one is the most difficult, but i'd narrow that down to technical aspects that are more easily objectifiable
[23:18] <pleia2> is there any place we could recommend theme developers put their stuff if not xfce-look?
[23:19] <ochosi> well, there's deviantart
[23:19] <ochosi> that has a little higher standards
[23:19] <ochosi> but obviously there's also a lot of crap
[23:19] <ochosi> i mean xfce-look is a place to start
[23:19] <Unit193> Zukitwo for example isn't too bad.
[23:20] <ochosi> maybe just say in your presentation that ppl should get in touch with us if they have themes or want to contribute
[23:20] <Unit193> I like ones I can git pull. :P
[23:20] <pleia2> ochosi: ok, sounds good :)
[23:20] <ochosi> Unit193: yeah, i know. lasse is pretty good, but unfortunately we won't be able to get him as a contributor. he's a gnomeshell/archlinux user
[23:22] <ochosi> pleia2: ok, continuing the comments...
[23:22] <ochosi> slide 16: why do you list gthumb3?
[23:22] <pleia2> isn't it a default app?
[23:22] <ochosi> no rhetorical question, i have no clue what improved there
[23:23] <ochosi> yeah, but so is abiword
[23:23] <ochosi> or evince
[23:23] <pleia2> oh, when writing release notes I went through a whole bunch of default apps and compared versions between 12.04 and 12.10
[23:23] <pleia2> those were the ones with major changes
[23:23] <ochosi> ok
[23:23] <ochosi> slide 17: add "Panel: " to items 2 and 3 in the list
[23:24] <ochosi> otherwise i'd think: "what's that about"?
[23:24] <pleia2> ah, good catch
[23:25] <pleia2> I still need to test some of this stuff, I mostly just grabbed from 4.10 release notes and /tour
[23:25] <ochosi> also: many ppl might be more interested in "thumbnails on the desktop" than "single click launching apps"
[23:25] <ochosi> also because it's not 100% true, you can single-click and open documents too
[23:25] <pleia2> ok
[23:25] <ochosi> so it's more general single-click support (as in thunar)
[23:25] <pleia2> gotcha
[23:26] <ochosi> again slide 16: gtk3 support was pretty perfect in 12.04 already, not sure we can improve it that much ;)
[23:26] <ochosi> (in greybird at least)
[23:26] <pleia2> what was the weirdness I saw in those bugs I submitted?
[23:27] <pleia2> in menus
[23:27] <ochosi> but you could instead say: improved gtk3 support for Xubuntu's default themes
[23:27] <ochosi> that was in quantal
[23:27] <pleia2> yeah
[23:27] <ochosi> it was a bug in the unico-engine
[23:27] <ochosi> i already fixed it
[23:27] <ochosi> ;)
[23:27] <ochosi> in bluebird _and_ greybird
[23:27] <pleia2> oh ok
[23:27] <ochosi> and it was fixed in albatross anyway
[23:28] <pleia2> I guess I didn't separate unico-engine and gtk3 in my head
[23:28] <ochosi> i'm trying to get rid of the dependency on the unico-engine
[23:29] <ochosi> mostly because the author of unico wants to get rid of it too :)
[23:29] <pleia2> ah :)
[23:29] <ochosi> well it's one less source for errors
[23:30] <pleia2> so in 12.10, are we removing the broken themes and just shipping with a few themes?
[23:31] <ochosi> we're trying to
[23:31]  * pleia2 nods
[23:31] <ochosi> we're already not shipping "murrine-themes" anymore
[23:31] <ochosi> it contains a lot of themes that only support gtk2
[23:31] <ochosi> basically we have to assemble a new collection of themes
[23:31] <ochosi> and the problem is: many of them only support specific gtk3 versions
[23:32] <ochosi> for greybird i have a version for gtk3.2, one for gtk3.4 and now one for gtk3.6
[23:32] <ochosi> not backward or forward compatible
[23:32] <pleia2> ouch
[23:32] <ochosi> each version will break in the wrong environment
[23:32] <ochosi> gtk3 is a mess..
[23:32] <ochosi> that's why maintenance is the second point on the list i posted above
[23:32] <Unit193> But it's better!
[23:34] <ochosi> you mean gtk3?