[01:34] <Azelphur> sigh, my internet randomly went down :(
[02:47] <ali1234> hmm webm encoding is quite slow
[06:59] <diplo>  Morning all
[07:17] <christel> AlanBell: rar! are we meeting somewhere pre-RAT? :)
[07:29] <AlanBell> christel: no specific plans yet
[07:34] <christel> nod
[07:40] <daubers> Morning
[07:41] <popey> morning
[07:43] <brobostigon> not a nice day, i have my mums eldest systers funeral to go to.
[07:47] <shauno> horribly off-topic, but to translate some troubleshooting steps for a windows user, what'd be their equivalent of 'dig' ?
[07:48] <diplo> nslookup
[07:49] <shauno> I can't figure out how to force nslookup to use 53/tcp instead of udp, hence dig
[07:50] <diplo> http://blog.thesysadmins.co.uk/nslookup-common-usage-examples.html
[07:50] <diplo> Never tried, will take a lookup :)
[07:50] <shauno> (battle of the firewalls; one site isn't allowing 53/udp out, the other isn't allowing 53/tcp in; dns usually accepts both, but this combination means neither option passes)
[07:51] <diplo> set vc ?
[07:51] <diplo> http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winserverNIS/thread/611b376f-dae4-476d-81a1-195a3a675242/
[07:51] <diplo> about halfway down the page they talk about it
[07:52] <shauno> sounds promising (had no idea what a virtual circuit was ;), cheers :)
[07:56] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[07:56] <brobostigon> any idication yet, as to if i were to order a nexus 7 , when shipping would occur?
[07:56] <brobostigon> good morning bigcalm :)
[08:00] <popey> brobostigon, google says 27th
[08:02] <brobostigon> popey: ok, cool, day of my birthday, :)
[08:17] <bigcalm> Is it the weekend yet?
[08:18] <brobostigon> it is only thursday.
[08:21] <bigcalm> brobostigon: damn
[08:24] <brobostigon> :(
[08:31] <dwatkins> major O2 outage in the UK, seems to be resolved in some areas now.
[08:35] <diplo> yeah my friend in Kent wasn't affected at all, but lots around my area were
[08:35] <diplo> Happily it didn't affect users of GiffGaff
[08:36] <JamesTait> Good morning all! o/
[08:40] <BigRedS> I'm after a browser that apes Firefox's behaviour where I can type the name of a bookmark and hit 'enter', but that doesn't ape firefox's pillaging of my ram
[08:40] <BigRedS> any suggestions?
[08:40] <BigRedS> it's not chromium or opera
[08:40] <DJones> Looking at the BBC website, its saying that GiffGaff & Tesco mobile were affected, probably the same bloke that did an update at RBS/Nat West and broke their systems changed jobs to work at O2
[08:41] <diplo> :D
[08:41] <diplo> Well DJones, loads of people on O2 around here who were affected but my giffgaff didn't stop all day so not sure what the issue was
[08:42] <DJones> diplo: Did you see the O2 suggestion on how to get your phone working for calls? Switch your 3G service off
[08:42] <directhex> yeah, o2 3g is still down. 2g supposedly fixed
[08:43] <diplo> My 3g has been on the whole time
[08:43] <diplo> Odd
[08:55] <oimon> i have emergency calls only on my giffgaff phone atm
[08:55] <oimon> data is working
[08:56] <oimon> BigRedS, maybe synapse will due the bookmark thing for you, p.s. firefox is better on ram lately
[08:56] <oimon> my giffgaff was ok yesterday strangely
[08:58] <BigRedS> yeah, I've just downloaded firefox straight from mozilla
[08:58] <BigRedS> not liking the idea of TB getting even less dev time though. It's already the only not-atrocious free mail client...
[08:59] <oimon> what features are required? exchange support would be nice
[08:59] <oimon> proper activesync support
[08:59] <BigRedS> IMAP support and not needing 2G of RAM
[09:00] <BigRedS> The whole point of IMAP is that the server does all the work; thunderbird shouldn't feel the need to download 200,000 mail headers, just the last 20
[09:00] <BigRedS> y'know, like the spec says...
[09:01] <oimon> mine seems to work ok
[09:01] <oimon> thats cos i disabled offline storage
[09:02] <oimon> also have 250MB RAM usage for a quillion emails
[09:02]  * BigRedS hunts down that checkbox and unticks it
[09:02] <BigRedS> maybe that'll fix that
[09:03] <oimon> inbox -right mouse, properties, synchroniszaTION
[09:03] <oimon> unselect offline use
[09:03] <davmor2> morning all
[09:04] <BigRedS> yeah, I just did that
[09:04] <bigcalm> Morning davmor2
[09:04] <oimon> there is also a global setting but i don't trust it
[09:06] <davmor2> morning bigcalm thanks for the text dude :)
[09:07] <bigcalm> davmor2: hope you're ok man
[09:08] <davmor2> bigcalm: Yeah nackered it's been a long week and there are 2 days left :)
[09:16]  * bigcalm gives these 2 days an evil stare
[09:16] <bigcalm> So tired, want it to be the weekend
[09:17] <bigcalm> Though that does mean a long drive down to Farnham
[09:18] <daubers> Urgh, get back to the UK on Tuesday afternoon, get sent to London on Friday :(
[09:19] <czajkowski> daubers: loads of time to recover :)
[09:22] <AlanBell> should the Ubuntu One music store work in Quantal?
[09:23] <bigcalm> U1 was broken yesterday, maybe it still is
[09:26] <diplo> They said it was fixed on twitter late afternoon i though
[09:26] <diplo> +t
[09:26] <AlanBell> I just get "Connecting you to the Ubuntu One Music Store..." in rhythmbox
[09:27] <AlanBell> I haven't clicked that for about 2 years so it might not be a recent breakage
[09:28] <gord> AlanBell: works fine for me in P
[09:28] <AlanBell> ok
[09:29] <directhex> heh. WD are releasing a new range of drives, "red", due to the previous "green" series being completely unusable in always-on workloads like NAS
[09:34] <AlanBell> I have a 3TB WD green drive specifically for a mostly-off workload
[09:34] <AlanBell> my root drive is a 16GB SD card and that is a mounted storage area
[09:41] <BigRedS> directhex: isn't that what black were for?
[09:41] <BigRedS> were/are
[09:56] <dogmatic69> handy terminal is handy
[09:59] <paul2978> #blenderQA
[09:59] <paul2978> :( im trying to connect to freenode beldnerQA does anyone know how i connect to it?
[09:59] <paul2978> blender
[09:59] <dwatkins>  /join #blenderQA
[09:59] <AlanBell> paul2978: type /join #blenderQA
[09:59] <dwatkins> that without the space at the beginning, paul2978
[10:00] <paul2978> thanks Alanbell & dawtkins how to i rejoin this chat afterwards?
[10:00] <dogmatic69> paul2978: no point, its empty
[10:00] <paul2978> lol ok
[10:00] <dwatkins> paul2978: you should remain here in this tab/window
[10:00] <dogmatic69> paul2978: your irc client should have tabs etc
[10:00] <dogmatic69> one per channel
[10:00] <paul2978> oh ok
[10:00] <dogmatic69> what you using?
[10:00] <dwatkins> yeah, xchat has tabs if you've enabled the reevant option
[10:01] <paul2978> xchat-GNOME
[10:01] <dogmatic69> ye, it has tabs
[10:01] <dogmatic69> I think at the top by default
[10:01] <paul2978> Thanks :)
[10:01] <AlanBell> #blender is the main channel with 227 people in it
[10:01] <dwatkins> last time I used xchat the tabs were at the side, but it may have changed since then
[10:01] <paul2978> yeah at the side
[10:02] <dogmatic69> dwatkins: what you using?
[10:02] <paul2978> join #blender
[10:02] <dwatkins> dogmatic69: irssi/screen
[10:03] <dogmatic69> paul2978: with a / :)
[10:28] <BigRedS> I have a 1st gen eepc to stick a linux on, anyone got any reccomendations?
[10:28] <BigRedS> it's for someone who doesn't know linux, but I reckon they'll be okay in openbox or somesuch and wont be looking to install things, just browse the net really
[10:29] <bigcalm> BigRedS: I've always wondered if crunchbang might work well on an eeepc
[10:29] <BigRedS> bigcalm: ooh, that'd be worth a look
[10:30] <BigRedS> a prettier openbox than I'd be arsed to do, too :)
[10:30] <bigcalm> Someday I'll get around to trying it on my eeepc 1000
[10:33] <diplo> I really like crunchbang, I ran it on my ex father in laws old pc
[10:33] <diplo> He was stupid to be plain and fair and he used it
[10:33] <diplo> So can't be that bad
[10:33] <diplo> :)
[10:33] <BigRedS> haha
[10:33] <BigRedS> and it's debian based so I'll understand it, too
[10:42] <BigRedS> Heh, it's just booted into UNR 10.10
[10:42] <BigRedS> forgot I did that
[10:49] <directhex> i liked UNR
[10:50] <directhex> netbook-launcher was great
[10:53] <BigRedS> it's a bit laggy on this...
[10:57] <davmor2> BigRedS: have you tried Lubuntu?
[10:58] <BigRedS> yeah, the LXDE ubuntu
[10:58] <BigRedS> forgot about that, probably rouglu equivalent to crunchbang
[11:15] <livingdaylight> GM
[11:15] <bigcalm> My apologies for top-posting on the mailing list. In my defence, the only other reply in the thread also top-posted. So I was following the trend
[11:15] <bigcalm> livingdaylight: GA
[11:16] <livingdaylight> bigcalm, hia
[11:16] <shauno> bigcalm: no need to worry about it now.  ninjas have aleady been dispatched ;)
[11:16] <livingdaylight> Update: re: yesterdays pc issue on newly-built pc: I changed wireless keyboard and mouse and everythings seems fine now!
[11:18] <BigRedS> bigcalm: just claim you were winding cz<tab> up and it's all good :)
[11:18] <livingdaylight> Only reason I bought parts to build a new pc was because I thought my pc was DEDED. When I began to experience similar issues on brand new pc I began to wonder. All I needed all along was a new keyboard, instead  I have a new £300 computer - LOL
[11:18] <BigRedS> haha, I did that once when the problem was the power lead
[11:20] <livingdaylight> so, funny...
[11:20] <livingdaylight> never thought that the keyboard could cause the pc to get sluggish and freeze
[11:21] <livingdaylight> I just changed batteries every once in a while
[11:21] <BigRedS> Now you mention it, I have heard of that before
[11:21] <BigRedS> with a PS/2 one
[11:21] <BigRedS> oh! I guess this is USB
[11:21] <livingdaylight> ok, yes, this was a usb one.
[11:21] <livingdaylight> £300 lesson learnt
[11:31] <daubers> So whats the "in" way of building websites these days? DJango & jQuery?
[11:32] <gord> notepad.exe
[11:33] <bigcalm> edlin
[11:34] <gord> but i think node.js is the new fad
[11:37] <livingdaylight> is open java - icetea the new way ? seems the sun-java option is no longer
[11:38] <daubers> node.js? What does that do
[11:40] <livingdaylight> appears that there are oracle-java installation guides online. What is the consensus of oracle-java vs icetea?
[11:41] <daubers> avoid both?
[11:41] <AlanBell> daubers: node.js is server side javascript and it is kinda good for real time comet stuff
[11:41] <AlanBell> etherpad-lite uses it
[11:43] <daubers> ah, ok
[11:44] <daubers> So does that require a http server too (reading the website it doesn't look it)?
[11:44] <AlanBell> no, it does the socket handling stuff
[11:44] <gord> no, which is why i stay the hell away from it ;)
[11:44] <BigRedS> I'd be very scared at the idea of havng nothing inbetween node.js and the internet
[11:44] <daubers> Hmmm.... I'll add it to the list of stuff I should look into
[11:44] <daubers> BigRedS: YOU ARE THE INTERWEBS!
[11:45] <AlanBell> if you want raw access to do something interesting it is good
[11:46] <AlanBell> and it is more like twisted than multithreaded hardness
[11:47] <AlanBell> but if you just want to build a website then use Joomla/wordpress/mediawiki/drupal/something where someone else does the dull parts
[11:47] <daubers> I got angry at WP and drupal recently. Was going to bung something together with Django and jQuery, but wondered what had changed in the last couple of years in the ever changing fad like world of web based frameworks
[11:48] <davmor2> daubers: django has a couple of things going for it, it's python and web so you get to improve both :)
[11:49] <daubers> davmor2: That and I already know it!
[11:52] <AlanBell> django is OK, but you have to do a lot yourself really
[11:52] <bigcalm> I really want to start learning python
[11:53] <AlanBell> django doesn't abstract the database very well, you have to do all kinds of mucking about with something called south if you want to add a field to an object because it doesn't sort out the tables for you
[11:54] <davmor2> bigcalm: I can recommend a course :D
[11:54] <bigcalm> davmor2: great :)
[11:57] <daubers> AlanBell: huh? I've never hit that problem
[11:58] <daubers> AlanBell: Is this if you change a model definition it sometimes doesn't update the DB structure correctly?
[11:58] <AlanBell> maybe it is more of a problem on some of the Ubuntu things like the loco directory and summit
[11:59] <AlanBell> yeah, add or change a field to a model and you are into a world of schema migrations and pain
[12:00] <daubers> Ah! I've never really had that problem. Most things I build remain relativley static schema wise once developed. And by tracking version numbers I generally just write a schema_update.py that checks the versions and does the updates for me
[12:02] <AlanBell> I understand it isn't a big deal, I just spent about 15 years working on schemaless nosql databases and it was a bit of a shock to the system
[12:08] <BigRedS> Hm. It's a bit late to report bugs in Maverick's UNR isn't it?
[12:12] <bigcalm> o>O
[12:12] <bigcalm> LUNCH!
[12:16] <BigRedS> no, o<O
[12:17] <bigcalm> Greedy
[12:17] <BigRedS> haha
[12:18] <bigcalm> Eating something bigger than your head
[12:27] <AlanBell> well gimp 2.8 is annoying :(
[12:27] <AlanBell> makes it really awkward to edit and save a .png file
[12:30] <directhex> AlanBell, the way "save" only supports xcf files, and you gotta use export?
[12:30] <directhex> dunno whose idea that was
[12:34] <AlanBell> directhex: yeah there is an overwrite option or export back to the file it came from option (depending on how you open it that moves)
[12:34] <directhex> AlanBell, still a horrible UI regression
[12:34] <AlanBell> but what you want to do is double click a .png, change it, save&quit
[12:35] <AlanBell> without being asked to care about file formats
[12:35] <directhex> i guess the aim is to force-feed people xcf files, to promote gimp as its own thing, not just "the thing that edits everyone else's formats"
[12:35] <AlanBell> maybe, .xcf is a good layered format, it is kind of the source code to the .png object code
[12:36] <AlanBell> but you can't use .xcf in an <img> tag (I assume)
[12:42] <directhex> of course not. xcf is just GIMP's editing format
[12:42] <directhex> it's useless for presentation, the same way you wouldn't ship a .psd for presentation either
[12:54] <BigRedS> ah yeah, that irked me the other day
[12:57]  * czajkowski face palms at liam proven description of nixie pixel
[12:57]  * christel tickles czajkowski 
[12:58] <christel> what are your saturday plans? will you head straight to RAT or should we all meet for Pints first?
[12:58] <czajkowski> christel: unsure as of now as still unwell.
[12:58] <czajkowski> may have picked up bug in the house
[12:58] <christel> oh no :(
[13:02] <davmor2> czajkowski: "PROD!!!!"*4
[13:04]  * czajkowski peers at davmor2 
[13:04] <davmor2> czajkowski: what that's one prod for 4 days :P
[13:05] <davmor2> czajkowski: Hello, have a hug
[13:39] <dogmatic69> I need to update imagemagic on 10.10 to the same version as 12.04. Can I just use the 12.04 ppa?
[13:39] <Laney> maybe, maybe not
[13:39] <dogmatic69> :/
[13:39] <Laney> it would be better to rebuild that version on 10.10
[13:40] <dogmatic69> broken -> ImageMagick 6.5.7-8  working -> Version: ImageMagick 6.6.0-4
[13:40] <dogmatic69> Laney: like download the src?
[13:41] <Laney> backportpackage -s precise -d maverick -u ppa:dogmatic69/ppa imagemagick
[13:41] <Laney> or something
[13:42] <dogmatic69> just found a 10.10 build of 6.6 .deb
[13:43] <dogmatic69> and its 32bit
[13:43] <AlanBell> 10.10 is close to end of support
[13:45]  * czajkowski headdesks
[13:46] <dogmatic69> ye, I was thinking to just update to 12
[13:48]  * AlanBell wonders why czajkowski is abusing the desk
[13:49] <czajkowski> AlanBell: the list
[13:52] <AlanBell> ah
[13:54] <dogmatic69> first time doing a major update :S
[14:05] <dogmatic69> running the update now, been asked 4 times to change the mysql pw
[14:06] <davmor2> AlanBell: If I were czajkowski I'd of bought a new desk I did like rather than just trying to demolish the one I had
[14:13]  * bigcalm returns
[14:17] <davmor2> bigcalm: you were gone?
[14:17] <bigcalm> davmor2: I know it's hard to tell with me
[14:21] <davmor2> bigcalm: :D
[14:29] <daubers> czajkowski: I've often wondered what would happen if methods of thinking in the media "world" collided with the OSS "world". I think Liam had a point... it just wasn't very well made. I'm not sure how you could raise that point without appearing sexist though. The worlds are a mighty complicated place
[14:30] <daubers> (That doesn't demean the work she had done bringing people to Ubuntu at all, which has been an immense addition to the general corpus of work in that area)
[14:30] <czajkowski> daubers: indeed, she has done good work, you can see that by the amount of people tuning in
[14:31] <czajkowski> but really lowering the comments to her body features to me, is just wrong and I'll call him on it
[14:33] <daubers> czajkowski: Absolutley. It's just a complex area to talk about in the OSS world. If this was a "media" world those comments would be hidden away in terms such as "target audience" and "appealing to a demographic". I think he just hadn't necessarily the correct method of approaching the subject. So call him on it, but maybe a little help with language would be good?
[14:33] <christel> what are you reading?
[14:34] <czajkowski> christel: ubuntu-uk ml
[14:34] <czajkowski> I did I pointed out you can complement her on her geekyness or smartness
[14:34] <czajkowski> christel: Gaming on Ubuntu thread
[14:35] <christel> i shall go Read
[14:35] <bigcalm> Need me some Doctrine help. How would I make this work? http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088052/
[14:37] <BigRedS> Anyone know if there's a Perlbrew equivalent in Ruby? For creating largely self-contained install, with it's own binary and assorted gems?
[14:38] <BigRedS> ah! RVM apparently!
[14:39] <daubers> czajkowski: When you're talking about video and media as a whole then sometimes then appearance can be important to certain demographics. I'm not saying that's "right", just that it is a thing that exists. (and I've being reading too many books/magazines/articles on production workflows/decisions in TV and film)
[14:40] <daubers> It's also (adding complications) a very emotive subject that a lot of people try and avoid.
[14:40] <daubers> I also hasten to add that the terminology I've used above I've tried to stay gender neutral with, because it works both ways.
[14:40] <bigcalm> BigRedS: from another channel on another server: rvm or rbenv
[14:41] <BigRedS> bigcalm: aha, I'll have a look at rbenv too, ta!
[14:44] <diplo> davmor2: Just reaad your mail, how much was the course if you don;t mind me asking
[14:44] <davmor2> diplo: with vat £780
[14:46] <diplo> I'd love to put myself on a course, I knew it would be in that range but I just can;t afford to put myself through
[14:46]  * diplo slugs on 
[14:46] <diplo> Cheers anyhoo
[14:49] <davmor2> diplo: no worries dude
[14:50] <diplo> I guess I was hoping you were going to say £200 :D
[14:50] <diplo> I know the windows/aix courses I've been on in the past have been 1-2k
[14:51] <christel> having perused her website i can sort of see where liam comes from :)
[14:52] <diplo> heh, I've followed Nixie for years, she definitly does hang out a bit in shots but I find her knowledgable enough and enjoy her shows
[14:53] <diplo> She's certainly not the worst out there, I watch some ones about gaming/nerdy stuff hosted by a few girls and I can assure you they are sometimes less clothed and it's not the reason I watch it.
[14:53] <diplo> I just enjoy the show
[14:53] <diplo> Although attractive ladies do help :D
[14:54] <christel> haha
[14:54] <christel> i don't have a problem with it, lets face it, sex sells -- but i can understand that some people don't approve
[14:55] <diplo> She works for Revision3 I guess now
[14:55] <daubers> yeah, people are complicated. It's certainly become a very emotive topic in the OSS sphere
[14:55] <diplo> But worked for Logitech for a while ( won a competition i think actually )
[14:55] <christel> and from perusing his livejournal bio i can sort of see how her exceptionally liberal approach to life clashes a tad with his rather traditional view of himself :)
[14:56]  * diplo takes everyone as they come
[14:56] <diplo> Except my ex-wife, I try to ignore her as much as possible :D
[14:58] <christel> also, i wouldn't say she's particularly busty! :o
[14:58] <christel> haha
[14:58] <christel> see, i just dislike people equally ;)
[14:58] <daubers> I like people individually, I have a hard time dealing with groups of people
[14:59] <diplo> I think a lot of people in the IT/Tech field do daubers ( generilisation i know )
[14:59] <davmor2> christel: Sex sells, hmmm selling sex I wonder if we can have them all arrested for prostitution?
[14:59] <diplo> But I'm the same, and most techy/IT people I know are similar
[14:59] <diplo> It's why I was in two minds about Alans and left myself as a maybe
[15:00] <daubers> Heh, I can't commit to anything at the moment because the roof on the conservatory has a whole in it and if it's a sunny day I need to take the whole thing down and put it up properly
[15:01]  * bigcalm hugs christel
[15:01] <christel> now -- thingiewotsit -- liam said "
[15:01] <christel> now -- thingiewotsit -- liam said "[b] I have no actual evidence that she is geeky; I think it may just
[15:01] <christel> be a calculated move to appear so in order to win fans; I see no sign
[15:01] <christel> of real understanding of what she's discussing in what I've seen."
[15:01] <christel> to me that sounds like a Good Thing(tm) -- if we've reached a point where ubuntu is being used and advocated by "non-geeky" people.. then that is a major achievement for FOSS in general
[15:01] <davmor2> czajkowski: you see the things you start
[15:02] <czajkowski> listen into mrevell http://www.brighttalk.com/webcast/6793/49175  on maas
[15:02] <mrevell> yay!
[15:02] <daubers> christel: Indeed! But it also has the "Linux Format Conundrum" in it. In that people who are very technical lost interest fast :) And that might be Liams point
[15:02] <christel> daubers: but we don't really need them to be interested, they most likely are interested already and have moved well beyond the point at which she advocates the use of the distro
[15:03] <diplo> daubers: I'm not the only one that is thinking about unsubscribing then ?
[15:03] <daubers> diplo: I did when i moved
[15:03] <daubers> christel: I agree. I'd have thought Liam is outside of her target audience
[15:03] <diplo> I keep thinking it's only £13 a quarter and what else would I read on the bog :)
[15:04] <daubers> diplo: Heh, I looked at it as I could get a more interesting (to me) magazine for that money
[15:04] <diplo> Share away if you have suggestions
[15:05] <daubers> diplo: I was considering magazines outside the Linux sphere... so might not be interesting to others! (Among them Gardeners World and White Dwarf)
[15:05] <diplo> not heard of white dward
[15:05] <diplo> dwarf*
[15:06] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jonathan Riddell] Akademy BoFs - http://blogs.kde.org/node/4588
[15:06] <diplo> Debated about subscribing to some comics and see how I get on with them, used to love them as a kid and teaching my boys to read at the mo
[15:07] <diplo> Wonder if it would help them to enjoy it more.
[15:07] <daubers> diplo: White Dwarf is Games Workshop's (Warhammer) magazine
[15:08] <diplo> ah
[15:08] <diplo> Two extremes there :)
[15:10] <daubers> heh :) I did consider "Make" magazine but I picked up a copy from WHSmiths and wasn't really taken
[15:18] <diplo> I like magazines as I can pick them up and put them down
[15:38] <bigcalm> Don't you hate it when you can't remember the name of the hotel you're booked into for the weekend?
[15:38] <bigcalm> Makes finding the booking confirmation email a little tricky
[15:38] <bigcalm> Farnham folk: which hotel have I booked into? :D
[15:45] <AlanBell> is it the one with the love swings?
[15:45] <diplo> :D
[15:45] <popey> http://www.hoteldevie.com/leisure/faqs.html#swingers-hotel-myth
[15:45] <AlanBell> hotel de vie
[15:46] <popey> hello sebsebseb
[15:46]  * bigcalm tuts
[15:46] <bigcalm> Yes, it's that hotel
[15:46] <zleap> I am working on a flyer thing now for developers,  so when i get a reply on the list I can add more useful info so people can get started
[15:46] <bigcalm> No, the swings was not a deciding factor :P
[15:46] <AlanBell> you will have to tell us all about it
[15:46] <AlanBell> well, not *all* about it
[15:46]  * bigcalm tuts
[15:46] <popey> zleap, do developers tend to need flyers?
[15:47] <daubers> Speaking of swings.... I've got a big set of swings in the garden that I need to get rid of. Anyone who wants them just needs to pring their own shovel
[15:47] <daubers> s/pring/bring
[15:47] <sebsebseb> hi popey and AlanBell
[15:47] <popey> http://maps.skobbler.de/ nice UI on openstreetmap data!
[15:47] <zleap> not sure,   but we are trying to reach out to people
[15:48] <sebsebseb> what's OGGCamp like, was thinking about maybe going this year.
[15:48] <zleap> may inspire people who want to get in to programming and give them a starting point
[15:48] <popey> sebsebseb, awesome
[15:48] <daubers> sebsebseb: better than popey said
[15:49] <bigcalm> Found my booking confirmation, thank you :D
[15:49] <sebsebseb> How general is it, I mean LInux distrowise?
[15:50] <sebsebseb> well went to FOSDEM 2012 this year :)
[15:50] <sebsebseb> ,but not been to any UK LInux opensource/freesoftware type events yet
[15:51] <sebsebseb> oh and started going to my LUG this year :)
[15:51] <popey> its not linux specific
[15:51] <popey> and certainly not ubuntu specific
[15:52] <popey> sebsebseb, whereabouts in the UK are you based? are you near liverpool?
[15:52] <sebsebseb> ,but since I have moved more away from Ubuntu, to contribute to another distro doing community stuff, I was wondering how general OGGCamp was.  also yeah I Have read that, it's not just Linux, it's a mixture of stuff
[15:53] <sebsebseb> popey: no not quite, near Bristol
[15:53] <popey> ahh
[15:53] <sebsebseb> however it seems two people from my LUG are going for example
[15:53] <popey> I'm going :)
[15:53] <sebsebseb> yeah of course you are, but your organising it as well, so no wonder
[15:53] <sebsebseb> :d
[15:53] <popey> :D
[15:54] <diplo> What date is it popey ?
[15:54] <diplo> I'd like to visit a friend in Macclesfield, might combine the weekend
[15:55] <sebsebseb> popey: I assume like other events, can give out Live CD's for distros and such to people :d  if want to
[15:55] <diplo> no worries, just looked online
[15:55] <diplo> :P
[15:55] <daubers> sebsebseb: Some people from the Thames Valley Rep Rap User Group are going too
[15:55]  * sebsebseb might volunteer for a talk at OGGCam pI am not joking,  did some public speaking earlier this year, only short Lightning Talks though
[15:56] <sebsebseb> that was fun :)
[15:58] <sebsebseb> it's the weekend, after getting back from nearly two weeks in Sweden earlier in the week.  oh and probably whilst there won't have any or little Internet access as well.  So could be nice to go to a opensource type event on the weekend when back :d.
[16:01] <sebsebseb> daubers: Auguat 18th and 19th
[16:02] <daubers> irk... that's only a month away.... should really start sorting out some video gear
[16:03] <daubers> (still waiting to know if it's really wanted or not mind.....)
[16:03] <sebsebseb> yeah and I should get travel and hotel sorted out, if going :d
[16:03] <sebsebseb> daubers: uh if I was doing a talk there, I would want it videod :d
[16:03] <sebsebseb> that's something else actually, when I looked on Youtube for OGGcamp not that many videos came up
[16:03] <daubers> sebsebseb: I've offered the gear (except a couple of cameras I need...) but haven't had a confirmed yes/no yet!
[16:05] <sebsebseb> daubers: so you have been to OGGCamp before it seems, what can you tell me about it :d
[16:07] <daubers> sebsebseb: It's awesome fun. There's normally a talk for everyone (if not you should give a talk) and normally some interesting exhibits. The RepRap there last year was quite cool
[16:07] <sebsebseb> daubers: and you  come back with loads of freebies and such like other events?
[16:07] <sebsebseb> :d
[16:07] <daubers> sebsebseb: Umm...... I've normally been helping out but I think that depends on the sponsors this year
[16:08] <daubers> sebsebseb: You come away knowing more awesome people than when you started :)
[16:08] <sebsebseb> yeah I guess so
[16:09] <daubers> That's why I started going anyway
[16:09] <sebsebseb> and I was looking at photos from a previous one
[16:09] <daubers> Also why I offered to help. Since I'd not met many OSS people at the time, it was an easy way to meet new peoples
[16:09] <sebsebseb> it's outside?  or when the weather is right?
[16:09] <daubers> sebsebseb: Mostly inside
[16:09] <sebsebseb> except for talks I mean
[16:10] <daubers> sebsebseb: http://blip.tv/show/772977 <- videos
[16:12] <sebsebseb> daubers: yeah that looks  better than what came up on Youtube when searching for OGGCamp
[16:13] <daubers> sebsebseb: Those where made thanks to AlanBell providing some stuff and my offices bandwidth being eaten :)
[16:13] <daubers> Apparently bandwidth isn't an issue this yea
[16:13] <daubers> r
[16:13] <sebsebseb> daubers: anyway so I can go there and try and gain some interest in the distro I contribute to now for example I guess :d 100%  community distro, non profit
[16:13] <sebsebseb> newish still
[16:14] <daubers> sebsebseb: Absolutley. See if people are interested in going to your talk, or just take some LiveCD's and get them on a table somewhere :)
[16:14] <daubers> sebsebseb: Which distro?
[16:14] <sebsebseb> heh thought I would get asked that
[16:15] <sebsebseb> Mageia
[16:15] <daubers> the mandriva replacement?
[16:15] <christel> bigcalm: when do you guys arrive? :)
[16:15] <sebsebseb> daubers: the Mandriva fork yeah
[16:15] <bigcalm> christel: lunchish, I hope
[16:15] <daubers> I cut my teeth on mandriva many many moons ago
[16:15] <sebsebseb> founded by ex Mandriva employee's and volunteer contributors
[16:16] <christel> cool!
[16:16] <christel> we should Pub Pre-RAT i reckon
[16:16] <christel> then all go to alton together from farnham
[16:16]  * christel nods
[16:16] <daubers> sebsebseb: Plan a talk! See if you can get it voted up to be done :)
[16:16] <sebsebseb> daubers: yeah might do that for this distro :)
[16:16] <bigcalm> christel: it's 3+ hours without stopping. So I hope we set off early and have a relaxing drive :)
[16:16] <christel> *nod*
[16:17] <bigcalm> christel: I was hoping that we could all go on the train together
[16:17] <christel> yay
[16:17] <bigcalm> Choo choo
[16:17] <AlanBell> choo choo
[16:17] <christel> :D
[16:17] <christel> AlanBell: will Lord join us on saturday?
[16:17] <AlanBell> go easy on the pre-RAT beers though
[16:17] <AlanBell> christel: yes he will
[16:18] <christel> mmm maybe we could food before setting off? burgers at the mulburry or something?
[16:18] <AlanBell> oh those are epic
[16:18]  * christel nods
[16:18] <bigcalm> I want to save the drinking for the train
[16:18] <christel> i <3 their burgers (they make me long for the days i could eat a whole one!)
[16:18]  * daubers considers finishing work for the day and going home to make pies
[16:18] <AlanBell> I failed to complete a firehouse burger with popey and theopensourcerer a few weeks ago
[16:18] <christel> and they are superclose to the station
[16:18] <christel> haha
[16:18] <bigcalm> The tickets say that they will bar people who are under the influence. Which is quite amusing :)
[16:19] <AlanBell> that was scorchio
[16:19] <AlanBell> don't forget the free pint voucher part of the ticket
[16:20] <bigcalm> \o/
[16:20] <bigcalm> I hope they are valid for other drinks as well. Hayley isn't one for ale sadly
[16:20] <sebsebseb> daubers: yeah I read that some scheduled talks such as Stephen Fry via technology this year,  and whilst that's going on or whatever unscheduled voted in talks
[16:21] <AlanBell> bigcalm: there are other drinks (probably a cider and a small amount of wine/other stuff)
[16:22] <bigcalm> AlanBell: indeed, there are other drinks. It's whether or not the free drink voucher is valid for those :)
[16:22] <AlanBell> I have in mysql a view, which is sluggish to calculate. Is there an easy way to say "cache this and keep it for 24hours, I don't care if it goes out of date"
[16:22] <AlanBell> bigcalm: err, so you get two free pints ;)
[16:23] <AlanBell> this is a solveable problem
[16:23] <bigcalm> AlanBell: yes, there is that option
[16:23] <bigcalm> :)
[16:23] <bigcalm> AlanBell: is there a way to optimise your query?
[16:23] <dogmatic69> anyone know offhand that command to get dir size?
[16:23] <bigcalm> du -chs ./
[16:24] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: ta
[16:24] <bigcalm> Welcome :)
[16:24] <dogmatic69> need to alias that one
[16:24] <dogmatic69> alias wtfhappenedtomyhdd
[16:24] <bigcalm> Ha
[16:25] <AlanBell> bigcalm: dunno really, basically I have customers, each customer has a bunch of recurring orders, one of which might be active
[16:25] <sebsebseb> AlanBell: so I want to ask this same question to you as well :d.  What's OGGCamp like? (altough I think I read some where that you have helped organise it in the past as well, but anyway)
[16:25] <AlanBell> it wants to display a list of customers with an active/inactive column which signifies whether they have one or more active orders
[16:26] <AlanBell> sebsebseb: oggcamp is fun, I helped on the video side of things at the last one which was close to my house. Liverpool is not close to my house.
[16:26] <sebsebseb> AlanBell: yeah Liverpool isn't close to my house either, but can travel
[16:27] <AlanBell> bigcalm: so there is this monster query view that gets joined to the customers table for display (well actually it is a 5 way join /o\)
[16:27] <bigcalm> AlanBell: that sounds so delightful!
[16:27] <AlanBell> and the query view seems to be the slow thing in the join, it makes sense that it is slow
[16:28] <bigcalm> Any chance of throwing it into a paste bin?
[16:30] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088255/
[16:31] <AlanBell> dunno if I should add a status field to the customer and set it in the overnight job
[16:32] <AlanBell> which is denormalisation and would be potentially slightly wrong, but might make things faster
[16:32] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: what is using the sql data?
[16:32] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: php web application called vtiger
[16:33] <dogmatic69> if you were using php / apc you could just apc_store() with a date, then check the cache first
[16:33] <dogmatic69> same for writing to disk, just more code needed
[16:33] <dogmatic69> not sure if mysql will do it direct somehow.
[16:33] <AlanBell> interesting, I thought that was just for opcodes
[16:34] <AlanBell> I was thinking of memcached as a possible thing to use in places too
[16:34] <dogmatic69> nope, it does that mainly. but you can stick anything in it like memcache etc.
[16:34] <bigcalm> AlanBell: I don't see what would be slow about that query unless you have _a lot_ of data and no indices
[16:34] <dogmatic69> I use apc normally. no need for distributed cache yet
[16:35] <dogmatic69> ye, its not overly complex sql. Maybe you could run an explain for us?
[16:37] <dogmatic69> I think 'EXPLAIN view_name' works
[16:37] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: You dont seem to have any conditions in that find so it would pull out how ever many records there are
[16:39] <AlanBell> I don't think I am using explain correctly
[16:39] <AlanBell> just tells me what columns are in the result
 I failed to complete a firehouse burger with popey and theopensourcerer a few weeks ago
[16:43] <popey> that was super tasty
[16:43] <popey> and a tiny bit spicy :D
[16:43] <AlanBell> it was rather good
[16:43]  * AlanBell reads up about explain
[16:43] <popey> hey AlanBell fancy contributing to compiz? :)
[16:44]  * popey is looking for a willing volunteer / victim
[16:44] <AlanBell> maybe
[16:44] <AlanBell> I have a contribution in my todo list anyway
[16:44] <popey> ah ok
[16:44] <popey> i might take a look myself :s
[16:44] <AlanBell> what area is this in then?
[16:45] <AlanBell> I need to fix some indentation and style issues on the text tracking zoom thing
[16:45] <AlanBell> and get it building so I can actually test it
[16:47] <davmor2> bigcalm: this might be of interest to you being as you hate yourself ;) IntelliJ IDEA Community Edition
[16:48] <bigcalm> :(
[16:48] <bigcalm> davmor2: is it only for Java?
[16:49] <davmor2> bigcalm: ah so netbeans is multilanuage then?
[16:49] <bigcalm> Yes
[16:49] <davmor2> bigcalm: oh well you will hate it too then :D
[16:50] <bigcalm> http://netbeans.org/downloads/index.html
[16:50] <davmor2> bigcalm: see how I thought of you though :)
[16:50] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088292/ is the query that the view gets used in
[16:50] <bigcalm> I use it only for PHP, which makes it a lot lighter
[16:50] <bigcalm> davmor2: so kind :D
[16:52] <brobostigon> there is version of safari for windows isnt there? otherwise i think i have found a bug in google anaytics.
[16:52] <bigcalm> There is
[16:53] <brobostigon> ok, good, phew.
[16:53] <bigcalm> And you can run it on linux via wine
[16:53] <brobostigon> bigcalm: but wouldnt it then report it still as running in windows? in analytics.
[16:54]  * bigcalm shrugs
[16:54] <bigcalm> Probably
[16:54] <bigcalm> It's whatever the user agent says it is
[16:54] <bigcalm> So the windows version running in wine will still have the windows user agent version
[16:55] <brobostigon> because the interesting thing is, it says people have used safari to visit my site, however mac os x nor ios shows in the OS vistor usage.
[16:55] <bigcalm> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB) AppleWebKit/533.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0 Safari/533.16
[16:55] <brobostigon> ah.
[16:55] <bigcalm> That's what it says for my copy running in wine
[16:56] <brobostigon> make sense now. it must be people unning it either in windows, or under wine.
[16:56] <bigcalm> Chances of people bothering to run safari in wine are slim
[16:56] <bigcalm> I do it because I'm a web dev and have to
[16:56] <bigcalm> It's that or use windows
[16:57] <brobostigon> ah.
[16:57] <bigcalm> I would treat them as edge cases
[16:58] <brobostigon> ok.
[16:58] <brobostigon> bigcalm: thank you for your insight.
[16:58] <bigcalm> brobostigon: most welcome
[16:59] <brobostigon> :)
[17:04] <popey> brobostigon, thats an ipad
[17:05] <popey> Version/5.0 Safari/533.16 gives that away
[17:05] <gord> *cough* steam sales started
[17:05] <gord> i know there is no steam on ubuntu... but steam sales started
[17:06] <popey> oh, windows.. odd
[17:06] <brobostigon> popey: interesting, yes. but still doesnt fit.
[17:06] <popey> probably lies then :)
[17:06] <popey> people fake their user agent shocker
[17:06] <brobostigon> popey: good point, yes.
[17:06] <popey> gord, my mate uses steam on ubuntu for most of his gaming
[17:07] <gord> yeah but wine :(
[17:07] <popey> some of the applications in the developer contest look interesting
[17:09] <shauno> a bit late, but the ipad says it's an ipad in the user-agent.  it doesn't claim to be XP
[17:09] <bigcalm> popey: :(
[17:10] <popey> well indeed
[17:10] <bigcalm> But good for them :)
[17:33] <daubers> Evening
[17:39] <popey> yo!
[17:40] <bigcalm> Duck!
[17:43] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088384/ so what does the so row mean? that appears to be possibly the problem, but I don't understand what bit of the query it comes from?
[17:46] <AlanBell> there is no table called "so" in the database
[17:46] <AlanBell> and it isn't anywhere in the query
[17:58] <livingdaylight> popey / AlanBell : Yo!
[18:02] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: I would say this is your problem
[18:02] <dogmatic69> 1 | SIMPLE      | so                    | ALL    | NULL                          | NULL    | NULL    | NULL                                         | 10157 |
[18:02] <dogmatic69> no index and 10k rows
[18:05] <AlanBell>  yeah, but what is it?
[18:05] <AlanBell> so isn't a table in the database
[18:05] <dogmatic69> ye, strange
[18:05] <dogmatic69> you had so in your VIEW
[18:06] <dogmatic69> Ah I see.. vtiger_fo_view_account_info.stats
[18:06] <dogmatic69> That is the view which does the so.foo stuff
[18:08] <dogmatic69> add an index for two fields something like alter table add index account_info (accountid, sostatus) on the vtiger_salesorder table
[18:09] <dogmatic69> create index account_info ON vtiger_salesorder(accountid, sostatu);
[18:09] <dogmatic69> that should work
[18:10] <daubers> popey, AlanBell since you're around (this isn't an Ubuntu question) I'm interested in what you guys would want from a hackspace (for context, I'm looking into ways of invigorating the Reading Hackspace community more).
[18:13] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: aaah, an alias in the view definition, now it makes sense
[18:16]  * AlanBell declares dogmatic69 to be full of win and is hereby owed a beer (or alternative beverage)
[18:17] <dogmatic69> \o/
[18:17] <AlanBell> daubers: sure, I had quite a few thoughts about hackspaces, I think to ramp up the numbers you need to appeal to a wider audience
[18:18] <AlanBell> daubers: which means going for more intro level stuff, and having a more attractive and appealing place than is strictly neccessary
[18:18] <daubers> AlanBell: That's a given, but I don't know what the rest of that audiance wants.... hence the questions :)
[18:19] <AlanBell> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/sh-hackspace/UR8Pua57HsE here is my general thoughts
[18:19] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: so the index worked for you?
[18:20] <AlanBell> and here is me doing a mini ragequit https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/sh-hackspace/IzO8k4VhFBg
[18:20] <daubers> AlanBell: I'm not convinced on the "office" type thing tbh.... I think you can make any spae appealing
[18:20] <daubers> AlanBell: I'd read the rage quit :)
[18:20] <AlanBell> office space stuff was chucked in to get the utilisation of the space up really
[18:21] <daubers> Oh, that I understood, I meant more as in the look and feel of a space
[18:21] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: yeah, it works on the explain, doesnt appear to make the UI much faster, but I need to do some real testing on that
[18:21] <ali1234> soldering isn't clean. not when i do it anyway
[18:22] <ali1234> unless you like burnt desks, flux, and smoke
[18:22] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you can paste a new explain if you like
[18:22] <AlanBell> daubers: yeah, look and feel can be fixed in the space, it also has to be in a not-too-scary location
[18:22] <ali1234> oh and lead
[18:22] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088452/
[18:22] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: ^^
[18:23] <AlanBell> ali1234: I love burned desks, flux and smoke
[18:23] <daubers> AlanBell: Hmm.... I have a half formed plan... but need more people input
[18:25] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: cool, the top one is still suspect. one second
[18:25] <ali1234> no you don;t
[18:25] <ali1234> that's a common fallacy
[18:26] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you do where vtiger_account.accountid > 0. why would the accountid be <= 0
[18:26] <AlanBell> daubers: another thing I would do is value the kit, one of my objections to the hackspace was that for £360/year I could get access to an empty shed (they refused to budget for kit), or I could go to B&Q and load up the car with toys from the powertools aisle
[18:26] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: good question, it wouldn't ever be
[18:26] <dogmatic69> I think you are forcing a where and confusing mysql
[18:27] <dogmatic69> it has to do a whole table scan to find everything anyway
[18:27] <daubers> AlanBell: Someone else said that... and I feel it's putting the emphasis in the wrong place. I might be wrong on that... but I'll add the idea to the list
[18:27] <ali1234> AlanBell: i don't see your point
[18:28] <ali1234> tools are useless if you have nowhere to use them
[18:28] <ali1234> it's called hackerspace not hackertoolsrental
[18:28] <AlanBell> this is true, I use mine in the garden
[18:28] <AlanBell> I get the point about the space being more than the tools
[18:29] <ali1234> also i would love to know how you rent a shed for £360/year, one that has electricity...
[18:29] <AlanBell> but if I was paying £30/month for membership of the space I wouldn't have much disposable income for materials to actually make anything
[18:30] <ali1234> £30/month? that'sa bit steep
[18:30] <AlanBell> I might not be the target demographic at all
[18:30] <AlanBell> ali1234: yeah, thats what I thought too
[18:31] <ali1234> should be a pay as you go model
[18:31] <AlanBell> that doesn't work
[18:31] <AlanBell> it needs to be like gym membership model
[18:31] <ali1234> it doesn't work if you are trying to run it as a business
[18:32] <AlanBell> people pay up every month and never turn up, they just get to tell their significant other that they did as they were asked and joined a gym
[18:32] <ali1234> y'know
[18:32] <AlanBell> these members subsidise the ones who go every day
[18:32] <ali1234> you should look into how musicians do it
[18:32] <ali1234> practice rooms
[18:32] <ali1234> every band knows where the local practice room is
[18:32] <ali1234> this is usually ina disused factory
[18:32] <ali1234> and shared with all the other local bands
[18:33] <ali1234> the same locations would be ideal for hackspaces
[18:34] <AlanBell> yup, this bunch wanted to get a commercial unit, which is fine, but when they had a plan that resulted in a £3.5k deficit and still figured it was fine to proceed I bailed out
[18:34] <AlanBell> trading while insolvent is a bit naughty
[18:34] <daubers> AlanBell: We've found it helps to be more flexible than that.... we have some "pay as you go members" and some people who just turn up on the open hack evenings (no charge for those)
[18:34] <ali1234> the problem with your office space idea is anything i can do in an office i can sit and home and do too
[18:34] <AlanBell> yeah, I have screaming kids, so I rent a nice office
[18:35] <AlanBell> but it isn't about the office space, it is about utilisation
[18:35] <AlanBell> what you can't do is have the space idle
[18:35] <daubers> AlanBell: Reading is idle quite frequently
[18:35] <daubers> there are other interest groups who pay to use the space though (once or twice a week)
[18:36] <AlanBell> and Ryan is no doubt feeling the pain of that a bit
[18:36] <ali1234> well, you can
[18:36] <daubers> Not as much as you'd think...
[18:36] <daubers> We're nearly at break
[18:36] <AlanBell> cool
[18:36] <daubers> eveneven (2 membersihips I think)
[18:37] <daubers> and the space is still idle
[18:37] <daubers> some days anyway
[18:37] <ali1234> this is why you contact musician
[18:37] <ali1234> they don't care about noise and they don't care about dirty practice rooms
[18:38] <AlanBell> that would be a great thing to do with a space to boost utilisation
[18:39] <ali1234> also they are in thhe same boat
[18:39] <ali1234> they use a room for a couple of hours a day
[18:39] <ali1234> or 1 day a week
[18:40] <ali1234> really they use he exact same model as a hackerspace to run these places, except they been doing it for a lot longer
[18:41] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088483/ that is odd, it returns more rows when I take the accountid>0 bit out
[18:41] <daubers> AlanBell: A different question, do you know anyone who is a teacher who might be willing to answer some questions for beer?
[18:41] <AlanBell> daubers: yeah, I have a heap of teachers on twitter
[18:41] <daubers> s/beer/some help with something
[18:42] <AlanBell> in fact twitter is the best place to talk to teachers
[18:42] <daubers> AlanBell: I'm interested in how we as a hackspace can help them
[18:43] <AlanBell> interesting question, people were saying that students might be target members and they were all concerned about public transport access
[18:43] <ali1234> public transport is a must
[18:43] <AlanBell> I felt that was irrelevant as students are not going to pay £30/month for it, and have access to better facilities already
[18:43] <ali1234> lolno
[18:44] <ali1234> they won't pay £30 of course. but they probably don't have better access unless they are university students
[18:44] <AlanBell> depending on what they are doing, I certainly had better access at secondary school, but not uni
[18:44] <AlanBell> we had an awesome metalwork room
[18:44] <ali1234> my secondary school had amazing equipment
[18:44]  * AlanBell wanted to be a blacksmith
[18:44] <ali1234> however we were never allowed to use it
[18:44] <AlanBell> still do really
[18:45] <ali1234> because someone had to be there to supervise at all times
[18:45] <ali1234> and because you got two hours a week in that lesson, 75% of which was theory
[18:46] <AlanBell> I think we had a pretty cool teacher, did after school stuff every day and didn't like teaching theory
[18:46] <AlanBell> wanted us to have fun with hot metal
[18:47] <ali1234> the other 25% was spent learning how to use each piece of equipment. so it was like "this week, how to bend plastic on the strip bender" - everyone takes turns bending a piece of plastic
[18:47] <ali1234> if you actually wanted to make something, no chance
[18:47] <daubers> AlanBell: They won't pay... but their parents might pay on a different scale
[18:48] <daubers> AlanBell: Rdg has a member who is a blacksmith
[18:48] <AlanBell> nice
[18:49] <AlanBell> so we had one person say on the list they couldn't commit to a monthly membership but wanted to pop along a few times a month on a daily £5 pay as you go fee, as long as they could do about 6 hours of hacking
[18:49] <AlanBell> they thought this sounded perfectly reasonable, as did everyone else I think
[18:49] <ali1234> i'd want to do something like that
[18:49] <AlanBell> now we were talking about a 500sqft hackspace, maybe room for 5 people to hack at a time
[18:50] <AlanBell> so lets say 12 hours utilisation a day
[18:50] <ali1234> 24 hours man
[18:50] <ali1234> gotta have it open 24 hours
[18:50] <AlanBell> 10 people per day would fit, per day, lets say 30 days fully utilised per month
[18:50] <daubers> AlanBell: We have people who do do that
[18:51] <AlanBell> and multiplying that out, meant that it would be £250/month short on the costs
[18:51] <AlanBell> so yeah you can have people doing that, but it isn't a fully proportional contribution to the costs
[18:51] <daubers> (we don't count those on the memberships)
[18:52] <ali1234> i don't think you can make a rule system that keeps everyone happy and also maximises use
[18:52] <AlanBell> probably not
[18:53] <ali1234> really though if someone is paying £5 per day and they use it for 2 days a month vs £30 for someone who uses it 25 days a month
[18:53] <AlanBell> you just need to do the figures that show that a realistic plan exceeds the rent
[18:53] <ali1234> they the £5/day person is getting the much worse deal
[18:54] <AlanBell> ali1234: what it needs is lots of people who pay £30/month and hardly ever turn up, like a gym
[18:54] <ali1234> that is totally unrealistic
[18:54] <AlanBell> and some people will use it 25 days one month and then not turn up for a couple of months
[18:54] <ali1234> what it actually needs is lots of people who will pay £5/day for 2 days
[18:54] <AlanBell> or get disinterested and do other stuff and wait 6 months before cancelling the standing order
[18:55] <ali1234> what is the estimated costs?
[18:55] <ali1234> honestly a space with room for 5 people is probably too big
[18:56] <Laney> nottinghack has a pretty large space
[18:56] <Laney> apparently it costs them 800/month
[18:56] <AlanBell> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ankl5FhsdSiZdGNYRDFOS2ZyRTgxNUZVWVFlNVU2QVE
[18:56] <Laney> no idea how they fund it
[18:56] <AlanBell> there are two scenarios there, one for this £500/month place and one for a high end clean and shiny mass market maker space
[18:58] <ali1234> so you're talking about 1500 for a space for 5 people
[18:58] <ali1234> all inclusive
[18:58] <AlanBell> yeah
[18:59] <ali1234> well 1500/5 = 300
[18:59] <ali1234> or £10/day
[18:59] <ali1234> that's just too expensive
[18:59] <AlanBell> yup
[19:00] <ali1234> doesn't matter how you split it up
[19:00] <AlanBell> I am not sure if it is a 5 person space really, it is 500 square foot, now 100sqft is a small bedroom, good for a single bed, double bed might just fit, but not with a wardrobe
[19:00] <ali1234> hmm
[19:01] <AlanBell> so I think 5 people doing stuff including space for machines and storage would be about full
[19:01] <ali1234> 10ft x 10ft x 5
[19:01] <ali1234> that's enough for more than 5
[19:01] <ali1234> perhaps 7 or 8
[19:01] <AlanBell> maybe
[19:01] <ali1234> thing is i find it unlikely you can get 5 people using it 100% of the time
[19:02] <AlanBell> yes
[19:02] <AlanBell> a couple might be sat on beanbags having a cup of tea or whatever
[19:02] <shauno> I was about to say that.  ours isn't much bigger than that.  you cna over-subscribe floorspace pretty well.  everyone finds the time of day that suits them, no-one camps out 24/7
[19:02] <ali1234> yeah those people don't need 100sqft each though :)
[19:03] <shauno> they're members, not tennants.  they're paying for membership, not 10x10
[19:03] <AlanBell> true, but 5 didn't seem unrealistic, might be a bit low
[19:04] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you could try right joins instead of inner
[19:04] <ali1234> doesn't matter. SOMEONE is paying for the 10x10 eventually
[19:04] <AlanBell> interesting, thanks dogmatic69 I will have a look at that
[19:04] <ali1234> in the end i think you can get cheaper
[19:04] <shauno> right, but I'm saying 'space for 5' isn't '5 members'.  it's 5 concurrent users before they're forced to start socialising
[19:05] <dogmatic69> inner will get rows if either side of the join matches, right will only get rows if the join exists
[19:05] <AlanBell> ali1234: I suggested they find someone with a double garage they can run power to
[19:05] <dogmatic69> with right and no > 0 condition should be the same I think
[19:05] <ali1234> i prefr the idea of industrial space with no neighbours
[19:05] <daubers> AlanBell: Speaking to Paul the other day, it would probably be easier to find a farmer with a spare outbuilding
[19:05] <diplo> evening all
[19:06] <ali1234> farmers live in the middle of nowhere, no public transport
[19:06] <daubers> ali1234: as a starting point, it's pretty good, and if you get the right mix of people it's not necessarily a problem
[19:07] <ali1234> where "right" = has a car?
[19:08] <daubers> "right" = can bum a lift from other members :)
[19:09] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: RIGHT JOIN instead of INNER JOIN returns the same data and the same explain results
[19:10] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you change all the inners?
[19:11] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: yeah, all of them
[19:11] <dogmatic69> hmm
[19:11] <ali1234> if you can find 10 people who use it 25 days a month for 6 hours a day and pay £30/month, and 10 people who use it 2 days a month for 6 hours a day to pay £10/month, that gives you a budget of £400 and an average usage level of 2.5 people assuming 24 hours opening
[19:11] <dogmatic69> ok, back to how it was then. Does that accountid field have an index atleast?
[19:12] <AlanBell> how do I tell?
[19:13] <dogmatic69> show create table table_name;
[19:13] <dogmatic69> show create table vtiger_account; specifically
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> show create table ?
[19:15] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1088542/ so it is the primary key, does that automatically mean it is an index?
[19:15] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: that out's the create statement which has the keys
[19:15] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: should be
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: ah, \d shows it too in postgresql :)
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: maybe too used to that :)
[19:15] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: just '\d'?
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> \d tablename
[19:16] <dogmatic69> ah
[19:16] <MartijnVdS> \d shows a list of tables, sequences, views
[19:16] <dogmatic69> postgresql is clunky to me. not used it much
[19:16] <MartijnVdS> \d<letters> can show more
[19:16]  * MartijnVdS likes postgres a lot more than others
[19:16] <MartijnVdS> other dbms
[19:16] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: as that is the pk its strange that its not using it
[19:17] <daubers> AlanBell, ali1234: Thanks for the ideas. Will add them to my little list
[19:17] <dogmatic69> It must be due to the > 0
[19:18] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: how about... with the data you get back, is there one result per vtiger_account.accountid ?
[19:18] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: yes
[19:18] <dogmatic69> if that is the case, you could swap out the > 0 for a group by vtiger_account.accountid HAVING vtiger_account.accountid > 0
[19:19] <dogmatic69> ... WHERE vtiger_crmentity.deleted =0 GROUP BY vtiger_account.accountid HAVING vtiger_account.accountid > 0
[19:20] <dogmatic69> using HAVING my change the way the query optimiser works
[19:20] <AlanBell> cunning
[19:20] <dogmatic69> If that fails, you can tell mysql what index to use (last resort I think)
[19:22] <AlanBell> it doesn't return identical data
[19:22] <dogmatic69> :(
[19:22] <dogmatic69> how many rows with the group by?
[19:23] <AlanBell> both do 20 rows
[19:23] <AlanBell> it is offset by 6 places
[19:24] <AlanBell> might be deleted records
[19:24] <dogmatic69> bah. Just noticed.. it actually is using the pk with > 0
[19:24] <AlanBell> I think I might poke other places for optimisations for a while
[19:24] <ali1234> wait, why is there a £500 fee for "accountancy"?
[19:25] <ali1234> find someone who will do it for free in return for a membership!
[19:25] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: Can you tell me how fast it is if you do "SELECT SQL_NO_CACHE ...."
[19:25] <dogmatic69> or slow
[19:26] <AlanBell> ali1234: yeah, that would be something that could be removed easily if they found someone
[19:27] <AlanBell> 20 rows in set (0.01 sec)
[19:28] <dogmatic69> you cant get quicker than that
[19:28] <dogmatic69> must be the php ?
[19:28] <AlanBell> 20 rows in set (0.00 sec)
[19:28] <AlanBell> quicker ;)
[19:28] <dogmatic69> unless the select is returning like 45MB that needs to be transferred, but doubt that.
[19:28] <AlanBell> yeah, PHP is doing lots of crazy, and there are other queries going on to build the page, some repeated lots of times
[19:29] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you have slow query logging enabled?
[19:29] <AlanBell> no, I think adding the index to the view sorted that part out
[19:29] <AlanBell> I did do some work with slow query logging, but there are not many slow queries happening
[19:29] <dogmatic69> https://github.com/rackerhacker/MySQLTuner-perl/blob/master/mysqltuner.pl
[19:29] <dogmatic69> run that, will give some good advice
[19:29] <AlanBell> it just sometimes does like 118 queries to build a page
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> _118_
[19:30] <dogmatic69> that is not much if they all take 0.01
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> what's this? Joomla?
[19:30] <dogmatic69> lol
[19:30] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: ITS PHP!!!!eleven!!11!1
[19:30]  * bigcalm returns yet again
[19:30] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: yeah, it isn't masses in total, but it is kind of chatty
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: reddit.com/r/lolphp for you :)
[19:31] <AlanBell> I think that doing the horizontal scaling thing and putting mysql on a separate machine would just kill it
[19:31] <dogmatic69> MartijnVdS: is that a bunch of circle jerking on param order?
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: nah
[19:32] <MartijnVdS> dogmatic69: just people laughing at PHP bugs :)
[19:32] <dogmatic69> this is the best ticket I have ever seen. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=50696
[19:33] <dogmatic69> will go down in the history books
[19:33] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: Might want to install xhprof
[19:34] <AlanBell> dogmatic69: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/callgraphs/contact.png
[19:34] <dogmatic69> good job, that was quick :P
[19:36] <AlanBell> fun isn't it
[19:36] <shauno> my favourite php bug is not being able to use classes/methods that contain a capital I in the name, if you switch to the turkish locale.
[19:37] <ali1234> explain please?
[19:37] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: you should do something like https://github.com/Infinitas-Plugins/developer/blob/master/Xhprof/Lib/xhprof.php#L50
[19:38] <dogmatic69> ignore some methods, so its easier to see what is going on
[19:38] <shauno> the locale is applied to the method names too. I have no idea why.  and in turkish, I isn't an upper-case i
[19:39] <shauno> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=35050  'wontfix'
[19:41] <bigcalm> The biggest problem with PHP are its users :)
[19:44] <dogmatic69> s/its/some of its/
[19:44] <dogmatic69> My biggest gripe with php is the low barrier to entry.
[19:45] <AlanBell> I don't like the way it is mixed up in an HTML page
[19:45] <dogmatic69> Its worse than the UK border agency
[19:46] <AlanBell> ;)
[19:46] <dogmatic69> AlanBell: it is a templating language. the OOP us bolted on top. there are talks of ditching <?php ... files and have php only stuff
[19:46] <dogmatic69> similar to a .c file I guess
[19:46] <AlanBell> php stands for Personal Home Page
[19:46] <dogmatic69> used to
[19:46] <AlanBell> or it did until it went recursive
[19:47] <AlanBell> PHP Hypertext Preprocessor
[19:47] <dogmatic69> ye. it changed to that years ago
[19:47] <bigcalm> Is there a better way of finding the end of a month than this? SELECT DATE_SUB(DATE_ADD('2012-02-01', INTERVAL 1 MONTH), INTERVAL 1 DAY);
[19:48] <dogmatic69> yes, one sec
[19:48] <dogmatic69> LAST_DAY(now())
[19:49] <bigcalm> o.O
[19:49] <dogmatic69> replace now() with what ever date
[19:49] <dogmatic69> if you want the time too CONCAT_WS(" ", LAST_DAY(:model.:datetime), "23:59:59")
[19:49] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: thank you :)
[19:49] <dogmatic69> np
[19:49] <bigcalm> I liked my work around, but yours is more direct!
[19:49] <dogmatic69> looks like this has been converted to #mysql
[19:50] <imanc_> is there a gnome command to move all windows out of the way thus clearing the desktop?
[19:50] <dogmatic69> window key + d?
[19:50] <imanc_> ohh
[19:50] <imanc_> nah
[19:51] <bigcalm> I'm being passed the year and month, I need to then fetch all records that happened in that year/month. Going to use BETWEEN, unless you know of a better method :)
[19:51] <imanc_> doesn't seem to do anything
[19:51] <Azelphur> got my scottevest today :D
[19:51] <dogmatic69> I just do alt + tab then keeping alt in hit shift + tab twice
[19:51] <Azelphur> mum couldn't even figure out that I was carrying a 10.1 inch netbook in my pocket
[19:51] <Azelphur> awesome coat is awesome.
[19:52] <imanc_> dogmatic69, wow, that sort of worked. Not sure i can recreate it tho
[19:52] <dogmatic69> imanc_: ctrl + alt + d
[19:52] <imanc_> dogmatic69, doesn't work
[19:52] <dogmatic69> oh
[19:52] <imanc_> i'm using 12.04 btw
[19:53] <dogmatic69> same
[19:53] <dogmatic69> hold windows key down for 5 seconds
[19:53] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: that does nothing for me in xfce :)
[19:54] <imanc_> I guess alt-f4 closes down windows
[19:54] <dogmatic69> that is like exit though
[19:55] <imanc_> dogmatic69,  ctrl+super=d
[19:55] <imanc_>  ctrl+super+d
[19:55] <imanc_> dogmatic69, in osx it shows the desktop :)
[19:55] <imanc_> I thought i was onto something 'till I realised xchat had vanished
[19:55] <dogmatic69> this is ubuntu though :P
[19:55] <imanc_> yer
[19:56] <dogmatic69> did you hack about your 12.04 install ?
[19:56] <dogmatic69> mine is pretty standard besides extra apps
[19:56] <imanc_> I have just got it installed on a new comp - i've had it trying to do python dev on osx
[19:56] <imanc_> I haven't hacked it at all tho
[19:56] <dogmatic69> but gnome?
[19:57] <imanc_> well - it's using the default window manager - I thought that was gnome with 12.04?
[19:57] <dogmatic69> unity
[19:57] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: sorry, missed your message about between. I might have something better in my bag of tricks
[19:58] <bigcalm> Heh, cool
[19:58] <imanc_> dogmatic69, ahh, got it.  So many window managers..
[19:58] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: everything for just the selected year / month?
[19:58] <bigcalm> And some other conditions, but that's the bit to do with date
[19:59] <dogmatic69> where YEAR(date_field) = $year AND MONTH(date_field) = $month ...
[19:59] <bigcalm> Oh, I see :)
[20:00] <dogmatic69> or you can do CONCAT_WS("-", YEAR(date_field), MONTH(date_field)) = '2012-02'
[20:01] <bigcalm> :)
[20:01] <dogmatic69> so php would be "CONCAT_WS(....) = ". date('Y-m', strtotime($fullDate))
[20:01] <bigcalm> I'm passing this into Doctrine as well
[20:01] <dogmatic69> never used it much
[20:01] <bigcalm> Don't want to get too specific for MySQL
[20:01] <dogmatic69> ah ok
[20:01] <dogmatic69> is this a personal project?
[20:02] <dogmatic69> open source etc
[20:02] <bigcalm> Newp, work
[20:02] <dogmatic69> multi engine support is a pita
[20:02] <dogmatic69> forget concat_ws then
[20:02] <bigcalm> It's currently using MySQL. But best to keep ones options open :)
[20:02] <bigcalm> SELECT * FROM payment WHERE YEAR(created_at) = 2012 AND MONTH(created_at) = 7;
[20:02] <dogmatic69> not portable, unless doctrine is magic
[20:02] <bigcalm> That's good enough :)
[20:02] <dogmatic69> ye
[20:03] <bigcalm> Doctrine and Propel are two PHP ORMs that can use multiple database engines
[20:03] <bigcalm> I happen to be using Doctrine this time
[20:03] <dogmatic69> cake too
[20:04] <imanc_> bigcalm, are you using them with an mvc framework?
[20:04] <bigcalm> imanc_: Symfony 1.4
[20:04] <imanc_> ahh
[20:06] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: missing cake?
[20:06] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: not really. I only use CakePHP for 1 existing project
[20:06] <bigcalm> We use Symfony when we start from scratch
[20:06] <imanc__> django ftw
[20:06] <dogmatic69> oh ok
[20:07] <bigcalm> imanc__: wrong language :)
[20:07] <imanc__> no right language :)
[20:08] <imanc__> When I check settings / details / graphics, i see "driver: unknown / experience: standard"
[20:09] <imanc__> but according to Ubuntu's hardware certification for this laptop I'm using the following driver:
[20:09] <imanc__> Intel Corporation 2nd Generation Core Processor Family Integrated Graphics Controller
[20:10] <imanc__> Just trying to figure out if I need to install a specific driver and if so, how
[20:13] <dogmatic69> I think the intel ones are good. nvidia needs proprietary drivers
[20:14] <imanc_> yeh, lshw seems to show that
[20:14] <imanc_> hm
[20:28] <daubers> *yawn*
[20:38] <imanc_> is there a way of getting a list of all installed apps in unity, or is it just a case of searching for 'em with super+A ?
[20:47] <AlanBell> imanc_: ls /usr/share/applications is pretty close
[20:48] <AlanBell> or you can write something to talk to the applications lens on dbus
[20:51] <dogmatic69> How can I find out what is using port 80?
[21:01] <AlanBell> telnet localhost 80
[21:01]  * bigcalm slumps
[21:01] <bigcalm> Taxi duties over for the night
[21:01] <bigcalm> Back to coding I go
[21:13] <christel> i do wonder where i put the RAT tickets :x
[21:14] <christel> i remember unpacking them after moving and going "I must put these somewhere safe"
[21:14] <christel> :)
[21:16] <imanc_> AlanBell, thanks
[21:18] <bigcalm> christel: please don't worry me like that
[21:18] <christel> bigcalm: haha
[21:18] <christel> they will be here.. somewhere
[21:18] <christel> somewhere, er, safe.
[21:18] <christel> :P
[21:32] <dogmatic69> What would cause @    WARNING: REMOTE HOST IDENTIFICATION HAS CHANGED!     @
[21:32] <dogmatic69> on ssh.
[21:32] <dogmatic69> would updating from 10.10 -> 12.04 do that?
[21:33] <bigcalm> A change in machine details would, yes
[21:34] <dogmatic69> hmm, I rebooted and logged in since then...
[21:34] <bigcalm> Just edit ~/.ssh/known_hosts and remove the offending lines
[21:34] <dogmatic69> so I was logged in, watching tv. came back to "write failed, broken pipe". and this
[21:34] <dogmatic69> yea, I know how to overcome it
[21:34] <bigcalm> :)
[21:34] <dogmatic69> "IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY!"
[21:35] <bigcalm> Maybe this is actually one of those times.
[21:35] <dogmatic69> mitm
[21:35] <bigcalm> Usually it's me doing something silly
[21:35] <dogmatic69> ye
[21:35] <dogmatic69> If someone is doing something silly, I dont want them infecting my ssh
[21:36] <dogmatic69> I will go through a dummy server, if that makes a difference
[21:38] <dogmatic69> hmmm
[21:38] <dogmatic69> all the files I uploaded are gone :/
[21:38] <bigcalm> Is it possible you've logged into a different server?
[21:39] <dogmatic69> no, I think the host formatted it
[21:39] <bigcalm> :(
[21:39] <bigcalm> That will be the reason for the warning then
[21:39] <dogmatic69> this is the problem with dealing with retards
[21:39] <dogmatic69> it was 10.10 and I wanted 12.04
[21:39]  * bigcalm hugs bytemark
[21:40] <dogmatic69> The client was messing about so I just done the upgrade
[21:40] <dogmatic69> now its formatted again..
[21:40] <bigcalm> Blame the client
[21:41] <dogmatic69> And I had just finished installing everything, for the 3rd time
[21:41] <dogmatic69> ffs
[22:08] <bigcalm> popey: you have returned!
[22:08] <popey> o/
[22:14] <andylockran> hey all
[22:14] <andylockran> looking around a flat tomorrow, potentially to buy
[22:14] <andylockran> it comes with Control4, home automation (underfloor heating, lighting and audio)
[22:15] <andylockran> there's even a TV in the shower (waterproof) and a mirror with embedded FM radio.
[22:15] <Azelphur> I want it.
[22:15] <andylockran> but, my question, is has Control4 - anyone know of success with playing with it
[22:16] <andylockran> I also want some funny ideas - my girlfriends is to set up 'who wants to be a millionaire music' to come on at high volume when you dim the lights - then the heating will turn up too
[22:16] <andylockran> that way, it'll give the effect of stress for our quiz nights
[22:17] <bigcalm> Good morning
[22:17] <andylockran> or raipdough/articulate .etc
[22:18] <andylockran> :D
[22:25] <andylockran> sounds fun eh?
[22:37] <dogmatic69> how can I install a specific version of imagemagic?
[22:39] <bigcalm> Pin it
[22:39] <bigcalm> But what's wrong with the current version?
[22:40] <dogmatic69> on my local dev I have ImageMagick 6.6.0-4 works fine, on live ImageMagick 6.6.9-7 broken
[22:40] <dogmatic69> how do you "pin it"
[22:40] <dogmatic69> this has been two long days of crap :(
[22:40] <bigcalm> Ug, I'll be googling now
[22:41] <bigcalm> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto
[22:41] <dogmatic69> they are both 12.04
[22:41] <dogmatic69> but the one that works was a 12.04b upgrade. the other is installed today
[22:41] <bigcalm> So why has one installed a newer version?
[22:42] <dogmatic69> I dont know
[22:42] <bigcalm> Aha
[22:42] <bigcalm> They are going with letters now rather than .1 .2 .3. 4?
[22:42] <dogmatic69> working: Version: ImageMagick 6.6.0-4 2012-04-30 Q16
[22:42] <dogmatic69> broken: Version: ImageMagick 6.6.9-7 2012-04-30 Q16
[22:43] <dogmatic69> I have done 3 clean installs one 10.10 that was live -> 12.04, 10.10 clean -> 12.04 and now clean 12.04
[22:44] <dogmatic69> 3 installs..
[22:44] <dogmatic69> This is the issue http://bin.cakephp.org/view/177665578
[22:45] <dogmatic69> all I find on google was reported in 2011-05
[22:50] <dogmatic69> bigcalm: pinning is for ubuntu / debain only
[22:50] <bigcalm> dogmatic69: it's for apt
[22:50] <dogmatic69> "Pinning is a process that allows you to remain on a stable release of Ubuntu (or any other debian system) while grabbing packages from a more recent version."
[22:51] <dogmatic69> ye, blocks os updates, not packages
[22:51] <bigcalm> Read further down
[22:51] <bigcalm> There's an example for pinning firefox
[22:51] <bigcalm> Another example: http://2bits.com/drupal-planet/various-ways-running-php-52-ubuntu-1004-lucid-lynx.html
[23:02] <bigcalm> Sleepy time