[08:21] <elfy> hello s-fox
[21:32] <s-fox> if favux turns up while am i am not here, please let him / her know i will not be long...
[21:33] <john_barleycorn> can do s-fox
[21:54] <s-fox> back but thanks john_barleycorn  :)
[22:01] <s-fox> hello Favux :)
[22:01] <Favux> Hi
[22:02] <s-fox> how are you Favux ?
[22:02] <Favux> I'm good, how are you?  Is there any sentiment for rescinding the 1 week post limit?
[22:03] <elfy> o/ Favux
[22:03] <Favux> hi elfy
[22:03] <s-fox> tired, very long day.
[22:03] <Favux> Sure, I bet.
[22:03] <s-fox> thank you for agreeing to talk on IRC.
[22:03] <s-fox> do you know why the limit was set on posts?
[22:03] <Favux> No problem.  Glad you gave me the opportunity.
[22:04] <Favux> Not sure although I think I've now read a fair amount.
[22:04] <s-fox> okay, i will give you a quick version :)
[22:05] <Favux> Fire away.
[22:05] <s-fox> we are a very large forums and are a prime target for spam.  we have had numerous situations where a bot will register and post seemingly innocent posts and then edit later with spam content.   it sly and is generally unnoticed.  the limit doesn't eradicate the problem, but it does cut down a lot on the clean up work afterwards
[22:06] <Favux> I thought I read a new version of vbulletin should handle that problem.  Once the unified sign up issue was taken care of.
[22:07] <s-fox> therein is the second problem
[22:07] <Favux> How so?
[22:07] <s-fox> Canonical have had numerous problems with the SSO.  The ticket is over 3 years old now for the update
[22:08] <Favux> Ouch, that's not good.
[22:08] <s-fox> To say it is overdue would be an understatement
[22:08] <elfy> :)
[22:08] <s-fox> We've been back and forth with Canonical over the issue numerous times
[22:08] <Favux> For sure.  To be honest I hadn't noticed any of this trojan spam.  The other kind I report routinely.
[22:09] <s-fox> Your reports are welcome, as are all reports
[22:09] <Favux> Well if that's the issue and it is a technical one like that, I'm not sure what else there is to say.
[22:09] <s-fox> The forum facelift you may have noticed was not done by canonical, they wanted us to wait for the update before style update
[22:10] <s-fox> we did the facelift ourselves
[22:10] <Favux> Nice job.  The wiki infrastructure seems much improved also.
[22:10] <s-fox> i seem to recall mark was rather insistent that update take place before the facelift. we got tired and to be honest felt neglected so ploughed ahead
[22:11] <Favux> There was one objector on one of the threads that offered to help you to write log scripts to handle the trojan spam.  Was there any interest in the offer?
[22:11] <Favux> Well you can only wait so long I suppose.
[22:11] <s-fox> we didn't need canonical for that.  i wrote an open letter expressing the forums stance on the level of support we received. i don't know if you saw it? i can link it to you for to read
[22:12] <Favux> I'd appreciate that.
[22:12] <s-fox> Favux,  http://serial-coder.co.uk/blog/2012/03/an-open-letter-to-the-ubuntu-community/
[22:12] <Favux> I do wish this had been announced via a banner announcement on the main page. A change that important deserved that.
[22:13] <s-fox> The forums -> Wiki for tutorials ?
[22:13] <Favux> A general broadcast PM to members would be a nice feature for important announcements also.
[22:14] <s-fox> Are we still discussing forums tutorials -> wiki  ?
[22:14] <bodhi_zazen> Favux: we try to communicate with the community, but that suggestion is not practical
[22:14] <Favux> No the main page.  That I would have seen.  You've done it before.  With the style change for example I think.
[22:14] <bodhi_zazen> And no-one reads the stickies
[22:15] <Favux> Yes, still forums to wiki.  Yep, I sure didn't see the sticky in Tutorials and Tips.  I wish it was practical bodhi.zazen.
[22:15] <bodhi_zazen> The changes to Tips and Tutorials was posted as a sticky in the T&T section 3 months ago
[22:15] <s-fox> It was also a global notice
[22:15] <Favux> Sure, but I access tutorials by keyword not through the subforum.
[22:15] <bodhi_zazen> It was also discussed on the FC
[22:15] <Favux> Or bookmarks.
[22:15] <s-fox> It was also being banded about on the ubuntu reports produced monthly
[22:15] <bodhi_zazen> It was also noted in the Refrigerator
[22:16] <s-fox> the reports are distributed across many platforms, including planet.ubuntu.com
[22:16] <bodhi_zazen> Sounds like you need to reconsider how you obtain information from the community Favux
[22:16] <Favux> I've said before I realize you felt you gave adequate notice.  But there seemed a fair number of us caught by surprise anyway.
[22:16] <s-fox> Discussions also took place on IRC in open
[22:16] <s-fox> place
[22:17] <Favux> Sure, I need to find out where the meeting minutes are posted.
[22:17] <bodhi_zazen> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
[22:17] <Favux> Thanks.
[22:17] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda/
[22:17] <Favux> That one I know now.
[22:17] <s-fox> we have noticed that "forums people" are perhaps not always "in touch" with the wider community and things outside of the forums. that is a generalisation but it is an observation
[22:17] <bodhi_zazen> minutes posted there
[22:18] <bodhi_zazen> there is also #ubuntuforums
[22:18] <Favux> Well I don't use IRC>
[22:18] <bodhi_zazen> and this conversation should, IMO, be moved to #ubuntuforums
[22:18] <s-fox> and #ubuntu-community-team
[22:18] <bodhi_zazen> Well Favux you need to learn how to keep up to date with community changes then
[22:19] <bodhi_zazen> expecting community to PM you on the forums is unreasonable
[22:19] <s-fox> bodhi_zazen,  when i arranged this meeting i was not entirely sure where the problem was. forums-> wiki or something else
[22:19] <Favux> But back to the spam issue then.  The trojans aren't rewriting user's posts are they?
[22:19] <s-fox> Oh no, just their own
[22:19] <Favux> OK, then.  Why lock us out of our posts?
[22:20] <Favux> If you are allowing a week anyway.
[22:20] <s-fox> normally the time difference between "sleeper posts" and getting edited is greater than a week
[22:20] <Favux> I see.
[22:21] <s-fox> i have a compromise that i have not aired to the forum council that i would perhaps like to suggest
[22:21] <Favux> Please.
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> There are sort of two broad topics here
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> 1. Editing posts
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> 2. migrating to wiki
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> you are sort of clouding the issues
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> by mixing the two
[22:22] <s-fox> As you know members cannot set avatars, signatures and personal details until they hit 50 post. it might be possible to make it so they can edit once hit 50.  i need to discuss this with the fc and then of course look at technical side
[22:22] <Favux> Ah, but from my perspective they are the same thing.
[22:23] <bodhi_zazen> Outside of tutorials, there has been no need to edit posts beyond a week
[22:23] <s-fox> +1 bodhi_zazen
[22:23] <nothingspecial> I like that s-fox
[22:23] <bodhi_zazen> and Favux you need to get  a grip on migrating tutorials to wiki
[22:23] <Favux> Good idea s-fox, that would work.
[22:23] <bodhi_zazen> we are not having this conversation so that you can maintain tutorials on the fourms
[22:23] <s-fox> but the tutorials are going to the wiki
[22:23] <Favux> That's my basic question.  Why?
[22:24] <bodhi_zazen> Why what ?
[22:24] <Favux> The old model is part of what made this the most popular forum.
[22:24] <bodhi_zazen> The reasons have been outlined here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1949027
[22:24] <Favux> Don't you have a bit of trepidation making a fundamental change of this kind?
[22:24] <s-fox> Advantage Wiki: Community maintained, peer reviewed, and easier to maintain.
[22:25] <s-fox> Disadvantage Forums: Limited peer review and maintenance (only forums staff and the Original Poster).
[22:25] <Favux> I get peered reviewed on my HOW TOs.  I constantly change them from user feedback and credit them.
[22:25] <bodhi_zazen> Favux: this issue is a dead horse
[22:26] <Favux> That message I'm getting.  If this is due to orders from above fine.  Just say so.
[22:26] <s-fox> the forums does have a roll in this new setupo though Favux
[22:26] <bodhi_zazen> Favux: let me re-phrase the question
[22:26] <Favux> If someone had asked me to go to the wiki I probably would have.  Joined the wiki team and everything.
[22:26] <bodhi_zazen> why do you have such a hang up on the wiki ?
[22:27] <Favux> But not being "forced" to.
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> yes, that is what you should do
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> join the wiki team
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> No one is forcing you to do anything
[22:27] <Favux> Part of it is that I use attachments.  This setup essentially prevents that.
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> you can use attachments on wiki
[22:27] <bodhi_zazen> in several ways
[22:27] <Favux> Another is the wiki was bad before.  Another was that Loic2 and mesiliac were in charge of the wacom wiki stuff.
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> "the wiki is bad" carries as much weight as "the forums are bad"
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> which is what they say on askubuntu or #ubuntu
[22:28] <Favux> You can use attachments?  It looked like in was just for in wiki stuff and not downloads.
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> if you do not like the wiki,fix it
[22:28] <nothingspecial> It's about joining the forums with everything else
[22:28] <Favux> Heck.  Here I though I was part of the community.
[22:29] <s-fox> are you worried that the forum has no role now Favux ?
[22:29] <bodhi_zazen> The advantages of the wiki far outweigh the advantages of continuing to use the forums and no on on the FC is ever considering re-opening the tutorials section Favux
[22:29] <Favux> Yes, that's part of it.  I've been concerned about the decline in active users I've been seeing.
[22:29] <bodhi_zazen> so we can discuss helping you migrate to wiki
[22:30] <bodhi_zazen> forums has more active users and more support then askubuntu or LP or irc combined
[22:30] <Favux> Again.  I at one point had written half the content of the Linux Wacom Project's wiki.  I contribute wiki pages to the DIGImend project.  Writing wiki pages is not my problem.
[22:31] <bodhi_zazen> great, sounds like you will fit in well with Ubuntu wiki then
[22:31] <bodhi_zazen> problem solved
[22:31] <Favux> It would be a lot of work and I would have to rewrite and reorganize a bunch of stuff.
[22:31] <nothingspecial> that's the ideaThe forum isn't it's own thing anymore
[22:31] <s-fox> Favux,   http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2023420
[22:31] <s-fox> that thread is for the discussion on a howto
[22:31] <bodhi_zazen> we have a whole wiki team to help and I wrote a script that has been working for some time now
[22:32] <s-fox> it is just the tutorial itself that has been moved
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> you do not need to personally do all the work
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> some people are good at technical details
[22:32] <Favux> But don't you see in this situation I can't do that.  I would be conceding to being coerced.  I know you think that is ridiculous but that is how it appears to me.
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> others can wiki format
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> work with at team
[22:33] <Favux> Again I could have been talked into this before I was locked out.  Most likely.
[22:33] <bodhi_zazen> I think you are stubborn
[22:33] <Favux> I hope that isn't it.
[22:33] <bodhi_zazen> and stubbornly holding onto something you should not
[22:33] <Favux> I think my concern is offering forum users the best help.
[22:33] <bodhi_zazen> you clearly have not read http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1949027
[22:34] <bodhi_zazen> and other then stating you don't like it, you have not given one disadvantage of moving to wiki
[22:34] <Favux> And giving the helpers/authors freedom to do it the way they find best.
[22:34] <bodhi_zazen> you are blind to the advantages of moving and working with a team
[22:34] <s-fox> Favux,  a better example then with active discussion: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2012415
[22:34] <s-fox> read post #2
[22:34] <Favux> The disadvantages were covered by all the objectors.  I don't need to repeat them.
[22:34] <bodhi_zazen> If you want personal control of content -> you need a personal blog or web site
[22:34] <elfy> I have to go - will read logs in the morning
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu (forms or otherwise) are not your personal space
[22:35] <Favux> No I'm not blind to advantages.  I think your ignoring the advantages of choice.
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> Ok, so you will have to grow up and deal with it then
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> a decision has been made
[22:35] <Favux> Control of content is not the issue.  I doubt there would be edit wars on the wiki.  Unless you get more editors.
[22:35] <bodhi_zazen> and we are not goin gback
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> so we can help you move forward
[22:36] <bodhi_zazen> Or you can pick up your toys and go home
[22:37] <Favux> OK, bodi.zazzen.  I really don't appreciate you telling me this is my problem.  That has gotten old.  You feel you've explained the reason and said the decision won't change multiple times.
[22:37] <bodhi_zazen> so do you want help ?
[22:37] <Favux> I really feel that is a shabbly way to talk to someone who has only tried to be helpful and a member of the community.
[22:37] <bodhi_zazen> Do you wish to participate in the community ?
[22:37] <nothingspecial> I'll help :)
[22:37] <Favux> I don't know.  I'll have to mull this conversation over.
[22:38] <bodhi_zazen> Favux: actually you are in the wrong
[22:38] <bodhi_zazen> Part of the "problem" here is
[22:38] <bodhi_zazen> 1. You were not paying attention
[22:38] <bodhi_zazen> 2. A decision has been made
[22:38] <bodhi_zazen> 3. How long are we going to be paralyzed to consider the decision ?
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> None of what you say is new
[22:39] <Favux> Well I felt I owed it to the community to give it a try.
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> we have heard all the arguemetns
[22:39] <Favux> Yes I know, other than the attachment issue.
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> No decision will make 100 % of the community happy 100 % of the time
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> yet, a decision needs to be made
[22:39] <Favux> That's cerainly true. Thank you all for your time.
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> we made a decision that makes as many people happy as possible
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> and we offered you help
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> not much more we can do really
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> you need to grow up a little
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> you are not always going to get your way in this world
[22:40]  * nothingspecial will still help, pm me
[22:41] <bodhi_zazen> and you are not always going to get kind offers for assistance
[22:41] <bodhi_zazen> Favux: see http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/v2-draft/view/head:/MergedCodeOfConduct.txt
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> Lines 93 -> 102 -> etc
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> Now if you wish to bring a new argument to the table, something new to consider, I will listen
[22:42] <bodhi_zazen> but I need something more then "I don't like it"
[22:43] <nothingspecial> good night all
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> you need to respect the necessity of making a decision
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> and learn to move forward when a decision you do not like is made
[22:43] <s-fox> bodhi_zazen,  are you done with the wall of text?
[22:44] <Favux> I'll take all of your advice under advisement bohi.zazzen.  Good night all.
[22:44] <bodhi_zazen> s-fox: =)
[22:45] <bodhi_zazen> sorry, but I am sort of sick of arguing about this issue
[22:45] <bodhi_zazen> wiki team is great and gaining momentum almost daily
[22:46] <s-fox> you could have worded it better. you put him in a corner and then isolated him
[22:46] <bodhi_zazen> perhaps
[22:47] <bodhi_zazen> you lead him on
[22:47] <bodhi_zazen> he came here thinking he could change the decision
[22:47] <s-fox> no, i invited him to chat to clear up the confusion
[22:47] <bodhi_zazen> He should have been brought here to discuss how we could help him
[22:47] <s-fox> he kept posting at cross purposes and intertwining points
[22:47] <bodhi_zazen> no, he had an agenda
[22:48] <bodhi_zazen> and an axe to grind
[22:49] <bodhi_zazen> I think we read his post here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2022762
[22:49] <bodhi_zazen> very differently
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> His bolded words "allow tutorials and HOW TO's to once again be on the forums"
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> That is his goal
[22:51] <s-fox> what has said has been said.
[22:51] <s-fox> i have nothing positive to say, so instead i will say nothing.
[22:52] <bodhi_zazen> ok
[22:53] <bodhi_zazen> still a (mostly) completely separate issue from allowing the community to edit support posts
[22:53] <bodhi_zazen> On editing posts, outside of tutorials, that I am aware, there has not been a single request and staff is mixed on the idea
[22:54] <bodhi_zazen> should probably be discussed in SCC / with community
[23:21] <s-fox> Hello Favux :)
[23:21] <Favux> Hi s.fox.  Just copying the conversation.  Bye, and good talking to you.