[05:15] <imbrandon> SpamapS: yea and there can be blanket exceptions for apps/teams too like clamav defs etc
[05:16] <imbrandon> re: sru's
[05:16] <imbrandon> Daviey: ^
[06:00] <SpamapS> imbrandon: indeed, but there is no such blanket exception for juju
[06:02] <imbrandon> SpamapS: right, but i just mean it might be good to see if that is our best option to ask for
[06:03] <imbrandon> seems like it, but i've not deply considerecd everything
[06:03] <imbrandon> deeply*
[06:05] <SpamapS> that was exactly my point.. we would need the tech board's approval to put such a radically new thing into precise-updates
[06:05] <SpamapS> the SRU team's discretion is only on interpretation of the policy
[06:05] <imbrandon> SpamapS: btw after the convo from a day or three ago re juju et al, i've started the last hour or so re-evalutating puppet and chef-solo and trying to see how best to maybe use them along with juju in a franken-charm heheh , looks like it may be promising but not gotten far yet
[06:06] <SpamapS> "For Long Term Support releases we regularly want to enable new hardware. Such changes are appropriate provided that we can ensure to not affect upgrades on existing hardware. For example, modaliases of newly introduced drivers must not overlap with previously shipped drivers."
[06:06] <SpamapS> One can argue that hpcloud == new hardware :)
[06:06] <imbrandon> sure, i dont think thats a bad hurdle to jump tho
[06:06] <imbrandon> true
[06:07] <imbrandon> yea not only that it dont circumvent the spirit of the policy
[06:07] <imbrandon> in that it would not overlap and break older providers aka hardware
[06:10] <SpamapS> well thats where it gets tricky
[06:10] <SpamapS> because the new provider landed in what is basically the '0.6' tree
[06:10] <SpamapS> with a lot of new code
[06:11] <imbrandon> it would be nice if we could ( talking in-general here so even in go version etc etc ) decouple the providers somehow , and provide them in a juju-providers package or even allow juju-providers-somethirdparty , via them being excapsulated and swapable at runtime
[06:11] <imbrandon> *encaps...
[06:13] <imbrandon> i mean look at some of the other tools that do things on multi clouds , given most are out of scope , but just trying to give a sense of why i think it would be good. they all support nearly 30 cloud providers
[06:13] <imbrandon> so to add/remove/change those seperatly would be a huge win long term
[06:14] <SpamapS> yes I suggested long ago that the provider code should be isolated as plugins
[06:14] <SpamapS> no code in juju.environment.config
[06:14] <imbrandon> right
[06:14] <SpamapS> just have the providers register their configs
[06:14]  * SpamapS is too lazy to lookup the bug that was closed saying no
[06:14] <imbrandon> i'll look it up later i'm too lazy to have followed the link right now anyhow
[06:15] <imbrandon> i just woke up an hour ago so still groggy
[06:15] <imbrandon> lol
[06:17] <imbrandon> btw SpamapS i gave up trying to get that usb dvi to work, so been on 2x monitors since i went full time  ubuntu again a few weeks ago
[06:17] <imbrandon> and
[06:17] <SpamapS> usb dvi?
[06:17] <imbrandon> so with 3rd monitor sitting here off mostly been trying to find out what to use it for ...
[06:18] <imbrandon> yea my mac mini has one hdmi out and one displayport out
[06:18] <imbrandon> that drives 2x monitors
[06:18] <imbrandon> the 3rd was a usb->dvi adapter
[06:18] <imbrandon> that i never got to work, even brought some to uds
[06:18] <imbrandon> etc
[06:19] <imbrandon> well work in ubuntu, and thats wrong too, i get it to work solo if the other are off ( e.g. there is a working kernel driver ) but not in combo where all 3 are on and working at same time :)
[06:20] <SpamapS> imbrandon: 3 is too many for me
[06:21] <imbrandon> but anyhow was gonna say .... its no big deal now, took a bunch of parts had laying round and managed to toss a amd64 2.5ish dualcore with 4GB ram and solo hdd togather and attached it to the 3rd monitor and hid under the desk
[06:21] <imbrandon> now just loaded synergy on it for single keyboard / mouse and all good to go again :)
[06:21] <SpamapS> imbrandon: throw synergy on it and you've got a good place to have IRC live ;)
[06:21] <SpamapS> oh haha
[06:22] <SpamapS> I remember when synergy cam eout
[06:22] <SpamapS> I blew peoples minds flipping from my macbook to my Debian desktop and back
[06:22] <imbrandon> SpamapS: heh i like 3 i tried more and less , but main in mid and one on left/right angled works out weel for my brain
[06:22] <imbrandon> hahah yea
[06:22] <imbrandon> same here
[06:22] <imbrandon> used to be a little wonky on osx but not anymore works well on all 3 now
[06:22] <imbrandon> ( 3 os's )
[06:23] <imbrandon> but in this case i have ubuntu on my main mac mini here and i loaded kubuntu on the new frankenstein
[06:23] <imbrandon> but yea its perfect to have irssi and other misc non-critical stuff off to the side going
[06:24] <imbrandon> not set it up yet either but i'm thinking about taking the apache/nginx etc that i norm have local too and setup a workflow so in my ide et al it still seems local but run off that machine saving me a tiny bit o cpu
[06:25] <imbrandon> but not have to change workflow or giveup the reasons to dev local and not just a remote dev server etc
[06:25] <imbrandon> e.g fast iterations etc
[06:26] <imbrandon> i need to find some way that i can stop caring about the data on it tho, e.g. like a vm thats been snapshoted
[06:26] <imbrandon> so i can "reset" it or similar at any moment and not care
[06:27] <imbrandon> not really thought about how to accomplish that yet but will be next on my personal projects todo's
[06:29] <imbrandon> it is pretty slow tho, so dont wanna tax it too bad, the ram is single channel ddr2 and the amd64 is like the first gen amd64 dual core's heh
[06:30] <imbrandon> and the hdd in it is actually a 80gb 2.5in laptop sata drive i had laying arround so i'm sure its 5400rpm at best
[06:30] <imbrandon> but just for basicly a "fat-kvm" or "fat-monitor" or whatever its perfect
[06:32] <SpamapS> heh.. the PPA builders seem wildly disparate in their I/O capabilities
[06:32] <SpamapS> nannyberry finishes the juju build in 9 minutes.. uranium gave up after 27 minutes
[06:33] <imbrandon> some are likely vm's with remote root/build fs's that seem local to the buildd
[06:33] <imbrandon> so network traffic hurts em
[06:33] <imbrandon> or proximity to the NAS
[06:33] <imbrandon> etc
[06:33]  * imbrandon is only guessing
[06:34] <SpamapS> Yeah I don't know
[06:34] <SpamapS> I just keep hitting retry until they get nannyberry
[06:34] <imbrandon> heh
[06:34] <imbrandon> way way back there was a uber secret way to selcet a buildd target
[06:34] <SpamapS> oo iridium.. thats a 'virtual 64' box.. this should be interesting
[06:34] <imbrandon> but i forget now and dunno if u even can anymore
[06:37] <imbrandon> i should dig into the current ubuntuwire setup , heh , thats when i had to learn all this is when we wre building that network , and wgrant tells me its not changed much since me, him, and ajmitch set most of it all up ... definately could use a www design refresh at the least :) heh
[06:39] <imbrandon> and changed from my version of ssh-import-id to the new one that dident exist that the time :) i'm sure there are things min dident consider that the new one does ... except mine supports LP teams ... so i can ssh-import-id <some lp team> and it gets the ssh keys for the whole team ... i might be able to wrangle support into ssh-import-id for that
[06:39] <imbrandon> seems like others might like it too maybe
[06:41] <imbrandon> ajmitch: what ya think about charming ( the things that make sense that is, the stuff on PPC and Sparc hardware obviously we couldent ) the UbuntuWire services, maybe revive some intrest in it ?
[06:50] <imbrandon> SpamapS: not sure which i hate more tho, unity or kde4, heh
[06:50]  * imbrandon should just run fluxbox on everything and be done with it
[06:50] <SpamapS> I don't think I'll ever understand "I hate <insert gui here>"
[06:51] <SpamapS> It has a pointer.. windows.. and keyboard shortcuts. I'm good.
[06:51] <SpamapS> XFCE.. Gnome.. Unity.. all the same in my book
[06:51] <imbrandon> SpamapS: well when i say it , its normally because of things i would rather do anothger way and cant without recompileing / writing my own code etc
[06:52] <SpamapS> KDE just strikes me as bloatware... tried it for a couple of days back when I was frustrated with the initial natty alpha3 version of Unity
[06:52] <imbrandon> nah those all have the same widgets for their windows
[06:52] <imbrandon> but the desktop is not
[06:53] <SpamapS> 99% of the time I'm just looking at a browser in one monitor, and a 3-paned Terminator in the other
[06:53] <imbrandon> SpamapS: yea KDE has always been the desktop you need horsepower to run, but its also been IMHO the desktop most like GNU* apps in that every little bit of everything has a config option in the gui somewhere
[06:53] <imbrandon> hehe
[06:53] <SpamapS> So I'm not exactly a GUI power user
[06:53] <SpamapS> Yeah I HATE being able to config everything like that
[06:54] <SpamapS> In fact I appreciate that Unity strives to pick a way that works for everybody so we can all stop caring where our launcher icons live
[06:54] <SpamapS> tweaking == wasted time
[06:54] <imbrandon> see i like the middle ground, i want the simplicity of a gnome2 or gnome3 minus gnome-shell or unity minus the launcher BUT all the config options of KDE and they are only available in .conf files tho, no gui to clutter shit up
[06:55] <imbrandon> no way, tweaking is not wasted time if its doing more than just visual tweaking
[06:56] <imbrandon> SpamapS: thats an awesom goal, i just think they have declaired victory a little too soon
[06:58] <imbrandon> ever used Sublime Text editor , if it were a desktop i would be in love , its a simple gui , eg there is ONLY the tabs of open docs, nothing else, not even config options window or anything , BUT ever aspect can be changed in the settings files that are 100% hidden from the user and dont even have a gui to change them , not even common changes like font size etc that editors normaly have
[07:00] <imbrandon> but if i want i just edit the json settings file and reload , boom i'm good :) but the editor is just an editor and per default works for 99% of ppl, no crazy options to conmfuse users , and power users get what they want
[07:00] <SpamapS> so suffice to say, tweakers don't like Unity
[07:00] <imbrandon> a desktop like that backed by gnome widgets like the first 3 you mentioned would rock
[07:00] <SpamapS> but people like me, who want to pick up a stock machine and *NEVER* change any configs, adore it.
[07:01] <imbrandon> SpamapS: yup exactly
[07:01] <SpamapS> I think *most* people are in the non-tweaker category
[07:01] <SpamapS> but most vocal people are
[07:01] <SpamapS> in the tweaker category
[07:01] <imbrandon> SpamapS: but you know that 1) group #2 is very loud/vocal minority and 2) they have influence over a signifigant portion of #1's buying decisions
[07:05] <imbrandon> there is very few in the group that I fall in that would use one and try to improve the other still ... e.g use osx and still contribute actively to ubuntu desktop ... i've only seen a very very few and most of the time they keep it quiet the only exception I can think of is Ian Murdoch (sp?) [ eg. the Ian in Debian , if i spelled it wrong ] openly runs windows and osx as well as debian and other linux distros daily
[07:06] <imbrandon> so how do you get the tweakers that are essential to contribute but not include them in the target ?
[07:07] <SpamapS> Thats the funny thing. I don't think Unity wants tweaker code contributors. They want advocates, and feedback, but not people to actually write the code.
[07:08] <imbrandon> then they dont want what they say they want then, that cant be "for everyone"
[07:09] <imbrandon> e.g ok here is my thing unity is great for those like you like you said
[07:09] <imbrandon> it really is , my bitching is for me
[07:09] <SpamapS> Right, and the way you want to scratch your itch is considered harmful to users. Gnome takes the same stance btw.. that having all those config options just makes it harder to teach people to use.
[07:10] <imbrandon> but i really have a problem with their "goal" and stuff like that that makes it sound like the debian goal of "universal openerating system"
[07:10] <SpamapS> and harder to develop apps for
[07:10] <imbrandon> and then have other mandates that oppose that
[07:10] <SpamapS> No the goal is to have something that reduces friction for adoption and use.
[07:11] <imbrandon> SpamapS: exactly , but gnome also lets those be changed in gconf and the like
[07:11] <imbrandon> and i agree with gnome
[07:11] <SpamapS> Right, so Unity is taking a harder line stance, which I agree with, that this harms the ecosystem for app developers
[07:11] <SpamapS> because now your app works only for people who haven't changed setting X
[07:11] <imbrandon> right and i adamently hate that
[07:12] <SpamapS> Its what has made ios and android so successful in attracting light weight app developers
[07:12] <SpamapS> the limitations of the medium make it easier to develop for
[07:12] <SpamapS> You don't have to take into account "well what if the user has focus follows mouse on?" or "what if the user has their icon bar in auto hide on the bottom of the screen"
[07:12] <imbrandon> so much so that not only does it make it to where i cant use it , i would actively encourage others not to, but you knw what ... that goal only comes out in conversations like this , if you just ask out of the blue you get "its the desktop for everyone"
[07:13] <imbrandon> SpamapS: thats a support problem, there is proven ways to have the ability to change things but not support them
[07:13] <SpamapS> So while increasing friction for users who want to change stuff.. it has reduced friction for *growth*
[07:14] <imbrandon> no
[07:14] <imbrandon> i csnt qagree
[07:14] <imbrandon> bah
[07:14] <imbrandon> cant agree
[07:14] <imbrandon> see there is a big diffrence to me in providing senseable defaults and a few ( very few ) config options for something
[07:15] <imbrandon> i can agree with that, and actually very very much like the idea
[07:15] <imbrandon> then anything else in a .conf hidden
[07:15] <SpamapS> There are a very few options. Just not the ones you want. :)
[07:15] <imbrandon> heh , add the last part :)
[07:16] <SpamapS> imbrandon: but here's the thing. iOS developers have *flourished* because they can basically count on having things work exactly one way and one way only. Android devs have had to deal with some moving targets, but ultimately, it works a certain way..
[07:16] <imbrandon> have you looked at the settings in iOS or an iOS app ? they are 30+ screens
[07:16] <SpamapS> imbrandon: Windows devs have the gravity of the platform pulling them along making them spend the money necessary to make apps that can deal with all of windows bazillion configs
[07:17] <SpamapS> imbrandon: but Ubuntu wants to grow a market of app devs. TO do that, they need the ease of development of iOS, but with the power of the PC platform.
[07:17] <imbrandon> and they are doing it wrong, OSX has that
[07:17] <SpamapS> imbrandon: those settings are nothing compared to what is still in the system config panels on precise.
[07:18] <imbrandon> see i agree with Unity's goal , thats the problem i always have when i have this convo, i do agree with it 10000% seriously, i just dont agree with the execution
[07:18] <imbrandon> at all
[07:18] <SpamapS> hah well thats fair
[07:18] <imbrandon> :)
[07:20] <imbrandon> okies, need to refill the mt dew and start on something productive for the day ... /me constemplates and what that will be when afk ...
[07:20] <imbrandon> brb
[08:07] <imbrandon> ahh yes, apt-mirror charm, will be simple and productive :)
[12:34] <m_3> hi from subway
[12:34] <m_3_> m_3: right back at you
[12:56] <semyazz> I've almost fresh Ubuntu 12.04 & Openstack (devstack - master branch) and I'd like to deploy hadoop to my local test-cloud environment. How shoudl I configure environment.yaml to deploy to Openstack? What is control-bucket in openstack's cloud? Any example how everything should be configured? Any native configuration for Openstack or the only way is to use EC2 api?
[13:11] <melmoth> semyazz, do you have the dasbhoard installed ? There s a page that create your environment.yaml therE.
[13:12] <melmoth> though, last time i try it, i had some kind of problem with it :)
[13:13] <melmoth> semyazz, my environment.yaml looks like this http://pastebin.com/sb0Yr8bB
[13:21] <semyazz> thx :) indeed there is export to EC2 in Openstack's dashboard.
[16:08] <SpamapS> FYI, http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/content/video sabdfl keynoting about juju
[16:20]  * SpamapS gets giddy as mark does jitsu export -e ec2 | jitsu import -e hp
[16:21] <hazmat> SpamapS, yummy
[16:23] <SpamapS> hazmat: so I think the buildd problem is just that tbe buildds are just too slow
[16:23] <SpamapS> hazmat: retrying enough times works
[16:23] <hazmat> SpamapS, thanks for keeping at that yesterday
[16:23] <hazmat> SpamapS, i've been under the weather and ended up crashing for like 18hrs
[16:23] <SpamapS> sleep dep is a bitch ;)
[16:25] <marcoceppi> wee keynote
[16:31] <hazmat> m_3_, i see your gmail ;-)
[16:31] <SpamapS> hahahaha
[16:32] <SpamapS> m_3_: ^5
[16:32] <SpamapS> whoa I just noticed, the premier diamond sponsor for OSCON is *MSFT*
[16:49] <negronjl> SpamapS: Are you approving https://code.launchpad.net/~mthaddon/charms/precise/haproxy/mini-sprint-sf/+merge/114951 ?
[16:49] <negronjl> 'morning all btw
[16:51] <SpamapS> negronjl: in a bit, yes. I want to pontificate a bit more before I approve of your implementation. :)
[16:51] <negronjl> SpamapS: pontificate away :)
[17:11] <jcastro> negronjl: heya
[17:11] <jcastro> I ran into someone at cloudfoundry
[17:11] <jcastro> I need to link you up with him
[17:11] <negronjl> jcastro: hey man
[17:11] <negronjl> jcastro: anybody I know ?
[17:11] <jcastro> he seemed excited about your work, and he's like the head dev experience guy
[17:11] <jcastro> Andy Piper
[17:12] <negronjl> jcastro:  I've heard the name
[17:12] <negronjl> jcastro: cool
[17:12] <negronjl> jcastro:  now I just need them to support precise and we're rolling
[17:12] <hazmat> nice
[17:12] <negronjl> jcastro:  I got it working on precise ( somewhat ) but, it would be a lot better if they can fix some of their dependencies
[17:12] <jcastro> yep, he actually came to the session to find someone to talk about that
[17:13] <jcastro> I was like "hey cloudfoundry, we need to talk!" and he was like "yes, we do we're trying to sort 12.04"
[17:13] <jcastro> and I was like "I've got your man."
[17:13] <jcastro> cool, expect an email in a few
[17:13] <negronjl> jcastro:  nice ... there is some interest ... perfect ...
[17:18] <_mup_> Bug #1026714 was filed: PPA builds fail because of low twisted timeouts <juju:In Progress by clint-fewbar> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/1026714 >
[17:25] <imbrandon> SpamapS: whoa sabdfl used jitsu in the demo ?
[17:25] <jcastro> yeah, crazy
[17:25] <jcastro> hazmat: I must say, that import export pipe thing you made.
[17:26] <jcastro> hazmat: is total brilliance.
[17:26] <james_w> yeah
[17:26] <james_w> shame it doesn't move the data too :-)
[17:26] <imbrandon> oh hell yea. frakin cake 100%.
[17:26] <jcastro> baby steps
[17:26] <imbrandon> james_w: should be able to be added
[17:27] <imbrandon> but dosent the fact that sabdfl demo'd with jitsu show that our current dev cycle-ish blah blah blah could be a lil broken :)
[17:28] <hazmat> james_w, give it time ;-)
[17:28] <SpamapS> I dunno if I want it to move the data
[17:28] <hazmat> james_w, just need some time to do some x env rels and it could do that
[17:28] <imbrandon> btw ^5 hazmat :)
[17:28] <hazmat> SpamapS, not move the data, but allow for x-env sync would do it
[17:28] <SpamapS> Right what I really want is a backup/restore service that I can relate cross-env
[17:28] <hazmat> block data movement  is provider specific, app protocols can do it
[17:28] <imbrandon> SpamapS: would be an worthy option , export to me kinda implys it can, like phpmyadmin can export schema and schema+data
[17:30] <jcastro> 90 charms folks!
[17:30] <jcastro> 10 more!
[17:31] <imbrandon> jcastro: i got 2 in the works
[17:31] <imbrandon> and 2 in the review q
[17:31] <imbrandon> so that is almost half :)
[17:31] <jcastro> heh
[17:31] <imbrandon> actually only one of 2 in the q will pass i think but i want other eyes on it anyhow to get feedback
[17:35] <imbrandon> "Using 5.6 GB" I think it may be time for me to archive some things off imap
[17:35] <imbrandon> heh
[17:37] <jcastro> imbrandon: hey so I was thinking
[17:37] <jcastro> we can hit 100 by august 23rd (12.04.01)
[17:38] <jcastro> marcoceppi: also ^^^
[17:39] <marcoceppi> I've got about 3 hours tonight to work on Charms. I know there are a few I was working on still limbo. Gluster and it's subordinate, Gitolite, WordPress, Papertrailapp subordinate
[17:40] <imbrandon> marcoceppi: if i can help in any way lemme know , i'd be happy to do a lil grunt work for ya if needed man
[17:41] <marcoceppi> imbrandon: thanks, I'll take a look at each in a min and ping you
[17:41] <imbrandon> kk
[17:42] <SpamapS> hazmat: would you count this as trivial? https://code.launchpad.net/~clint-fewbar/juju/fix-buildd-fail/+merge/115794
[17:44] <hazmat> SpamapS, yes, but the  intended use is?
[17:44] <hazmat> to raise the timeout for the buildd?
[17:44] <SpamapS> yes
[17:45] <SpamapS> I think its reasonable to keep it at 5 for developer use
[17:45] <SpamapS> like, none of them should even take 1s on a developer box
[17:45] <hazmat> sadly a handful do
[17:46] <SpamapS> right, but we can attack that with the testr stuff
[17:46] <hazmat> but they typically have explicit timeouts
[17:46] <hazmat> yup
[17:46] <SpamapS> I'm going to set package builds to 30s timeouts for tests
[17:47] <SpamapS> thats 16 hours if they all take 29s
[17:48] <SpamapS> hazmat: ok, so should I just go ahead and merge?
[17:48] <SpamapS> then I can move forward w/ updating the packaging
[17:49] <hazmat> SpamapS, +1 re merge
[17:51] <SpamapS> done
[17:51] <SpamapS> thanks! :)
[17:59] <SpamapS> negronjl: oh hey, we don't currently allow "lists" in maintainer for charms.
[17:59] <SpamapS> negronjl: you're the second to want to do it though.. so maybe we should?
[17:59] <negronjl> SpamapS: we should
[17:59] <SpamapS> It would need to be a yaml list tho
[17:59] <negronjl> SpamapS: I'll figure something out
[17:59] <Daviey> SpamapS: When it's more than one, shouldn't it become a team?
[18:00] <SpamapS> Daviey: yes
[18:00] <SpamapS> but there's no email address for a team
[18:00] <m_3_> mark's demo rocked!
[18:00] <m_3_> ok, reading through backchannel I see y'all were watching
[18:02] <negronjl> SpamapS: We can make charmers the maintainers ... for the haproxy one
[18:03] <SpamapS> negronjl: actually, thats probably a good idea
[18:03] <SpamapS> I tend to want charmers to be largely responsible for key bits of infrastructure.
[18:03] <negronjl> SpamapS: if/when you promulgate it I can change it
[18:03] <SpamapS> negronjl: well really charm proof should complain
[18:04] <Daviey> SpamapS: it's trivial to apply for a team mailing list.
[18:04] <negronjl> SpamapS: maybe we need to update charm proof so it does
[18:04] <SpamapS> yeah, perhaps charmers should have one actually
[18:04] <negronjl> SpamapS, Daviey: Don't we have a mailing list for charmers already ?
[18:04] <SpamapS> Though I tend to think right now juju@lists.ubuntu.com is a better home for charmers
[18:05] <negronjl> SpamapS: That may be the case right now but, in the future the charmers traffic will end up polluting the juju mailing lists
[18:05] <negronjl> It's easier ( better ? ) to have a separate one
[18:05] <SpamapS> yeah
[18:05] <SpamapS> perhaps now is the time
[18:06] <negronjl>  aawwwww ... we're growing up ... we're gonna have our own mailing list :)
[18:06] <SpamapS> See I dunno.. I kind of want those discussion to happen in the view of the whole community until messages get more frequent than once every 2 weeks
[18:07] <negronjl> Can we have our own and have the email address for the charmer's mailing list subscribe to the juju ML ?
[18:07] <hazmat> m_3_, nice
[18:07] <hazmat> SpamapS, it seems a bit early for that
[18:07] <negronjl> hmmm .. that wouldnt work would it ?
[18:07] <negronjl> nm
[18:07] <hazmat> SpamapS, like how many charm specific questions on the list have their been
[18:08] <SpamapS> yeah I think charmers stays on the main list for now
[18:13] <imbrandon> negronjl: heh yea i already added and subsuqently removed a array of maintainers :)
[18:14] <negronjl> Maybe file a request so we can add multiple email addresses in maintainer field ?
[18:14] <hazmat> negronjl, just email the list
[18:14] <imbrandon> SpamapS: well also some things may not goto the list because of that, i tend to use email as a last resort anyhow but juju@ dont seem like the correct place to ask a charm question to me and likely others
[18:14] <negronjl> I see this issue growing as people modify other's charms and add their name to the existing maintainer field
[18:14] <hazmat> its trivial to add support for it in the only place that info is used atm
[18:14] <hazmat> negronjl, one time commit, is not maintainer
[18:15] <hazmat> enduring activity
[18:16] <SpamapS> imbrandon: Its a place to ask a question about fundamental charms tho.
[18:17] <imbrandon> sure but since charms are more like a software app than packaging that app it might be nice to have defined way to list past contributors univerally now that its mentioned, i dont think maintainers is right , althouh i do like the idea of it being a list for other reasons
[18:17] <SpamapS> maintainer is a statement.. "I will keep this charm in good order and respond to questions about it"
[18:17] <imbrandon> SpamapS: sure, but it looks more like a place that juju development happend
[18:17] <imbrandon> happens*
[18:17] <SpamapS> You can contribute like crazy to the charm w/o saying that.
[18:17] <SpamapS> imbrandon: no, thats on the juju-dev mailing list
[18:17] <imbrandon> SpamapS: right , i know this, i said looks like :)
[18:17] <SpamapS> imbrandon: juju is for discussions about using juju, which includes charm dev
[18:18] <SpamapS> Seriously traffic is next to nothing
[18:18] <SpamapS> when it gets to a level where charmers and charm user questions are dominating the list, we'll open a new list
[18:18] <imbrandon> until this conversation in irc tho i would not have thought that :) and the amount of serious traffic does not matter ppl getting their head bitten off from old school lists
[18:19] <imbrandon> is enough to stop them at the smell of "important"
[18:19] <SpamapS> but I would do that reluctantly, as I think its vital that interested users see charm dev discussions
[18:19] <marcoceppi> We should just go use Google Wave instead of the lists.
[18:19] <imbrandon> see moving resources, esp on the internet in any fasion stops momentium and is confusing, its better to do what you want from the begning
[18:21] <imbrandon> marcoceppi: haha +10
[18:21] <SpamapS> imbrandon: right, ideally we'd never move it, because the traffic would be interesting to all juju users.
[18:22] <imbrandon> imho forums are better used for what lists do, and wiki's are better at what forums are used as, and ask! is good to supply a healthy community on both the others :)
[18:22] <imbrandon> and email should die
[18:22] <imbrandon> :)
[18:23] <imbrandon> but there are whole religious cults on both sides of the forum<->email thing
[18:23] <imbrandon> thats why something like google groups are perfect, would be nice for ubuntu lists to do that
[18:24] <imbrandon> forum and email interface combine
[18:25] <SpamapS> forums are death for busy user interactions
[18:25] <imbrandon> email is not a good archive to refer/search
[18:26] <SpamapS> yeah, thats what askubuntu is for
[18:26] <imbrandon> then why would i send an email to the list ?
[18:26] <imbrandon> heh
[18:26] <marcoceppi> +1
[18:27] <imbrandon> SpamapS: i'm just being a PITA , i konw the awnsers, but seriosuly i think email lists are only around out of habbit, interaction in so many other ways is better for every use case i've ever seen a list used for
[18:29] <imbrandon> announcements was about the last use case i thought was OK for them, but even that i like the RSS model better as it stops the chance of spam pretty much
[18:32] <SpamapS> imbrandon: ETOOMUCHPITA ...you have reached your PITA quota for this millenium. Please try again in the year 3000.
[18:33] <imbrandon> lol kk
[19:18] <hazmat> its like the everyman version of the editor wars
[19:18] <hazmat> s/everyman/universal
[19:18] <hazmat> ml vs forum
[19:19] <hazmat> push vs pull ;-)
[19:20] <imbrandon> heh
[19:25] <jcastro> hazmat: I'd like to write up the OpenStack provider, when do you think would be a good time? Should I wait for it to hit distro/PPA you think?
[19:32] <hazmat> jcastro, now
[19:32] <hazmat> jcastro, its in the ppa
[19:34] <jcastro> ok, ON IT.
[19:34] <jcastro> do we have instructions for setting it up on HP Cloud somewhere?
[19:40] <SpamapS> jcastro: I just uploaded it to debian experimental, and it will hit quantal as soon as launchpad sees it so I can sync
[19:40] <SpamapS> jcastro: no the docs still need a lot of work
[19:43] <jcastro> ok so I'll whine to mgz about it
[19:45] <SpamapS> or perhaps they just didn't make it from lp:juju to lp:juju/docs ?
[19:45] <SpamapS> ahh no docs dir
[19:45] <SpamapS> yeah definitely need some docs
[19:49] <jcastro> I don't mind waiting a day for the docs to catch up
[19:50] <jcastro> we'd be lost in the webapps madness today anyway. :)
[19:50] <SpamapS> true
[19:50] <SpamapS> that was pretty subtle, but pretty damn cool
[20:01] <imbrandon> does lp:juju's /docs ever get updated with whats in lp:juju/docs at all ? its like _WAY_ outdated
[20:01] <imbrandon> SpamapS: ^
[20:02] <SpamapS> there is no more confusion
[20:02] <SpamapS> lp:juju/docs is the only one
[20:02] <SpamapS> I don't have a docs dir in my lp:juju
[20:03] <imbrandon> i have some more doc's css fixes to land soon too that are the product of ubuntu-accomplishments and pkgme are both using me shpinx theme now :)
[20:03] <imbrandon> SpamapS: ahhh i hadent looked ina week or teo
[20:03] <imbrandon> two
[20:04] <SpamapS> imbrandon: At some point I did some mods to the old one to add Version metadata for docs that had listed it... mainly for the charm store policy document. I don't see that there anymore.
[20:04] <imbrandon> and its has a home of its own too at lp:ubuntu-website-community-webthemes/light-sphinx-theme too ( but thats old and i need to push there as well )
[20:04] <imbrandon> SpamapS: its there
[20:05] <imbrandon> it just never worked
[20:05] <SpamapS> it worked for me. ;)
[20:05] <imbrandon> see hte two blank lines with a "."
[20:05] <imbrandon> at the bottom
[20:05] <imbrandon> thats what gets output for me and on the www
[20:05] <imbrandon> eg all that [meta] is there but empty
[20:06] <SpamapS> oh right its because of sphinx 0.6.4
[20:06] <imbrandon> how is that filled in ?
[20:06] <imbrandon> from the conf.py ?
[20:06] <SpamapS> meta is automatic in later sphinx's
[20:07] <imbrandon> well i dont think the build of the docs has access too juju either, look at the bottom link in the TOC the modules are empty
[20:07] <SpamapS> its not getting it from juju
[20:07] <imbrandon> i wish it was a little more transparent on what gets done on that build ... so i could at least work around things
[20:07] <imbrandon> right but the modules it does
[20:08] <imbrandon> just was adding things in since we was on topic
[20:08] <imbrandon> :)
[20:09] <imbrandon> after i finish this apt-mirror charm i may charm the juju site and see how far we can get with m_3_'s dogfood'in idea, i like it
[20:09] <imbrandon> but we'll see , plus i can use the charm for other docs/websites if it dont fly :)
[20:09] <imbrandon> should only take an hour or two really, as it should be very simple charm
[20:10]  * imbrandon thinks on it while he gets foood
[20:10] <imbrandon> brb
[21:25] <jml> when juju starts chewing 100% of both of my CPUs, what's the correct way to make it stop?
[21:30] <SpamapS> jml: juju destroy-environment -e [name of local env]
[21:30] <SpamapS> jml: you *might* have to kill -9 it, as I've seen it at least once stuck in some kind of signal ignoring loop
[21:30] <jml> 23325 ?        Ssl    0:00 /usr/bin/python -m juju.agents.machine --nodaemon --logfile /tmp/tmpDvjyn3/jml-djpkgme.bigtests.test_integration.TestJuju.test_bootstrapped-1/machine-agent.log --session-file /var/run/juju/jml-djpkgme.bigtests.test_integration.TestJuju.test_bootstrapped-1-machine-agent.zksession
[21:30] <jml> what about that sucker?
[21:30] <SpamapS> jml: though upstart should be taking care of that
[21:30] <jml> every time I kill it, it comes back stronger
[21:30] <jml> (not actually stronger, that just sounded cooler)
[21:32] <SpamapS> jml: so the destroy-env should have removed the upstart jobs
[21:32] <SpamapS> jml: but if it didn't, try 'sudo initctl list|grep juju' followed by some stops.
[21:32]  * SpamapS wonders how the branch to fix that is faring
[21:33] <jml> SpamapS: thanks.
[21:40] <hazmat> SpamapS, the fix is there, but ben went on holiday
[21:40] <hazmat> the actual fix needs extraction from the branch
[21:40] <hazmat> to be standalone and some minor cleanup besides
[21:41] <hazmat> SpamapS, are you going to do another release of juju into 12.04 .. i could take a break from websockets and have a go at if if need be
[21:42] <hazmat> i think ben said he was going to work on it during his plane trip
[21:42] <SpamapS> hazmat: yes I'd like to do one more SRU to fix the few bugs that are most important.
[22:42] <SpamapS> jcastro: hey, are those HP micro servers quiet?
[22:42] <SpamapS> As much as I've fought it for a while..
[22:42] <jcastro> yeah
[22:42] <SpamapS> I think I need to stop building software on my 5500rpm laptop disk
[22:42] <jcastro> with no extra drives it's basically 0 noise
[22:43] <SpamapS> I was thinking of putting SSD's in it
[22:43] <jcastro> for building stuff? It's got like an AMD netbook processor, I wouldn't recommend that either
[22:43] <SpamapS> Oh
[22:43] <SpamapS> I want a big fat 4 core CPU :)
[22:43] <SpamapS> with no fan
[22:43] <SpamapS> ;)
[22:44] <jcastro> always the impossible you seek
[22:44] <SpamapS> https://www.system76.com/desktops/model/leox3
[22:44] <SpamapS> liquid cooling should be quieter right? ;)
[22:45] <SpamapS> I wonder if I can call them and get them to send it to me w/o a video card so I can rid myself of nvidia
[22:46] <SpamapS> 5 Free GB of Ubuntu One Online Storage and Sync
[22:46] <SpamapS> doesn't.. everybody get that? ;)
[23:05] <imbrandon> heh
[23:06] <imbrandon> SpamapS: server to build thats better than your daily machine != quiet :)
[23:07] <SpamapS> my laptop, at this point, is not quiet
[23:07] <imbrandon> conflicting goals .... but maybe you can toss it in the little ones closet to help them sleep the night from the vibrations ? hehe
[23:07] <SpamapS> thats my main gripe with it actually
[23:07] <SpamapS> fans just spin and spin
[23:07] <SpamapS> helps a bit to shutdown one of the cores
[23:08] <imbrandon> heh yea, doing the same here , as nice as my mini is its great to offload things, so my server / pc reorg at home is perfect time to do all that
[23:08] <imbrandon> but i tend to only care about the noise on mine and the others are rooms/buildings away
[23:09] <SpamapS> actually if there were a command like 'sbuild', but it spun up an EC2 c1.medium instead.. I would probably not care
[23:09] <imbrandon> like the new server with all those nice TB of hdd's i put in a few days ago sounds like a damn plane is taking off when you walk in the room
[23:09] <imbrandon> heh i'm sure it could be done
[23:10] <SpamapS> but by the time I ssh to a box w/ juju and scp a .dsc and.. oh look shiny
[23:10] <SpamapS> imbrandon: I think we should run a service for ubuntu devs to share a pool of build boxes in EC2.. ;)
[23:10] <imbrandon> automate that shit, if you have to type a command in 2 times, its worth scripting
[23:11] <imbrandon> SpamapS: welcome to ubuntuwire ( e.g. that was the main goal behind it pre ec2 )
[23:11] <imbrandon> it used donated dell servers with xen instances :)
[23:11] <SpamapS> ah never heard of it
[23:11] <imbrandon> www.ubuntuwire.com , service i started way way way back in the day, been thinking about bringing it into the 2000's
[23:12] <imbrandon> heh
[23:12] <imbrandon> then wrangled a bunch of sponsors like dell and other peeps to help me SA like wgrant and ajmitch :)
[23:13] <imbrandon> and its basicly been dormant for 2 years , but uses for like qa.uw.com and revu.ubuntuwire.com still
[23:13] <ajmitch> not dormant, just infrequently updated since things just work
[23:14] <imbrandon> might be kinda cool to add what your talking about , beacuse its basicly there , thats the service i was tlaking about i wrote ssh-import-id for before it existed
[23:14] <imbrandon> ajmitch: right :)
[23:14] <imbrandon> ajmitch: it is nice how low maint it is when shits setup right :)
[23:14] <ajmitch> though I did have to install a postgres backport recently
[23:14] <imbrandon> but dormant i more ment "new development" or add shineys
[23:15] <ajmitch> there are still things being added, but mostly in the realm of new ubuntu qa tools
[23:16] <imbrandon> btw is revu still running on that single ol ultra sparc ?
[23:16] <imbrandon> heh
[23:16] <SpamapS> I believe REVU has been phased out
[23:16] <ajmitch> like various things that people write that use the local UDD mirror
[23:16] <imbrandon> SpamapS: it has for the most part, only there for those that choose to use it
[23:16] <SpamapS> Last I heard it was heavily discouraged
[23:16] <SpamapS> --> debian is over there
[23:16] <ajmitch> SpamapS: right
[23:16] <imbrandon> heh basicly
[23:16] <SpamapS> and otherwise, submit to the ARB
[23:17] <ajmitch> or otherwise stick stuff in a branch & get it reviewed that way
[23:17] <imbrandon> yea the queue used to get large
[23:17] <imbrandon> and undermaned
[23:17] <imbrandon> yup, and iirc there is a huge banner at top of it that says so too
[23:18] <imbrandon> last i touched it tho it was on a single 400mhz ultra sparc iirc heh
[23:19] <imbrandon> hrm /me checks out the bzr branches and contemplates a webtheme update
[23:19] <imbrandon> bah
[23:19] <imbrandon> do that this weekend , got charms for now :)
[23:19] <imbrandon> but yea would be nice to add something like that SpamapS :)
[23:21] <imbrandon> ajmitch: and even update all those scripts we wrote to use the LP api now that there is such a thing instead of screen scraping
[23:21] <imbrandon> :)
[23:23] <ajmitch> imbrandon: I don't think there would be many of those left
[23:24] <imbrandon> yea , the ssh one if any, and its likely been replaced
[23:24] <imbrandon> or not even used
[23:24] <imbrandon> since people.ubuntuwire.com is offline
[23:24] <ajmitch> not used
[23:24] <imbrandon> and thats where it was mostly
[23:24] <ajmitch> ssh access is just given on request as needed
[23:25] <imbrandon> ahh if ya get time mind refreshing me on the www hostname ( if its still one www with vhosts ) and all that jaz , i might do some cosmetic updates this weekend and get familiar with it all again
[23:27] <ajmitch> just, but not right now
[23:27] <imbrandon> sure thing just whenever
[23:27] <imbrandon> :)
[23:27] <ajmitch> & in #ubuntuwire, it's off-topic enough here
[23:28] <imbrandon> bleh :)
[23:28] <SpamapS> would be pretty awesome to get all of it charmed and moved to hpcloud or RAX or something
[23:28] <imbrandon> SpamapS: that would be except the $$ part, atm its all sponsored
[23:29] <imbrandon> other than that i'm 100% down for it
[23:30] <SpamapS> right, let HP or RAX sponsor it
[23:31] <SpamapS> didn't HP give all ubuntu devs access?
[23:31] <imbrandon> yup
[23:31] <imbrandon> but only for 3 months, i'll see what i can manage
[23:31] <imbrandon> :)
[23:31] <imbrandon> one sec phone
[23:44] <SpamapS> hazmat: first try at building r559 on quantal failed.. but.. like usual..its a random "other" failure. :-P
[23:49] <SpamapS> ok, they're still performance sensitive
[23:49] <SpamapS> roseapple finished them in 5 minutes.. but when they take 13 min.. no good