| snap-l | mutt | 00:27 |
|---|---|---|
| snap-l | bah | 00:27 |
| rick_h_droid | Not sure you do not want to see your neighbors dinking around all day. | 00:35 |
| rick_h_droid | morning | 11:35 |
| shakes808 | morning | 12:47 |
| MaskedDriver | morning shakes808 | 12:49 |
| rick_h_ | hey shakes808, everything cool? Not seen you around CHC for a while | 12:53 |
| rick_h_ | or is snap-l putting you to extra work :P | 12:53 |
| shakes808 | rick_h_: Yeah, everything is fine. The summers get a little hectic for me. I get my son a lot more and I do side jobs that pick up a little more. You know, anything to do fun things with my son :D | 12:56 |
| shakes808 | I should be there next week. | 12:56 |
| brousch | shakes808: How old is your son? | 12:56 |
| shakes808 | 6 | 12:56 |
| rick_h_ | shakes808: ah, all good stuff then | 12:57 |
| rick_h_ | shakes808: ok cool, wanted to make sure we didn't scare you off or anything | 12:57 |
| shakes808 | HA HA no. I am actually switching gears a little on my programming. My buddy wants to do some games and other little projects, so he and I have been setting up his server so that I can access it and have been testing that out. Getting back to C++ and I am using Eclipse, which I don't know too well. C++ within Linux is interesting or within Eclipse, not sure since they are two new variables. I am used to MS VS and what not | 12:59 |
| shakes808 | And possibly another one using JAVA. .... should be fun lol | 13:03 |
| rick_h_ | java? sounds depressing :P | 13:04 |
| shakes808 | lol He is mainly a JAVA dev on his own time and what he is focusing on in his studies. He works with C#. He likes some of the things that C# has and is creating his own library to implement some of the same features in JAVA. I guess with whatever he is working on in JAVA there isn't any good libraries for it already. | 13:05 |
| jrwren | jabba! | 13:06 |
| jrwren | ever time I see a jvm installed on a system, I die a little inside | 13:06 |
| shakes808 | lol | 13:07 |
| jrwren | c++ in linux is so damned easy compared to windows C++ that it hurts. | 13:07 |
| jrwren | teh windows APIs are so complex compared to most of the linux libraries for C++ that i don't know why people dev or windows. | 13:08 |
| jrwren | *for* | 13:08 |
| jrwren | i know it is judgemental of me, but I honestly think very little of anyone who chooses to program in java. | 13:13 |
| rick_h_ | elitist! :P | 13:13 |
| jrwren | nah. | 13:13 |
| brousch | hater! | 13:13 |
| jrwren | this is a case of ANYTHING else would be ok. | 13:14 |
| jrwren | yeah, hater. | 13:14 |
| jrwren | but i feel it is an informed hate. | 13:14 |
| brousch | You need Java to dev for Android | 13:14 |
| brousch | That bugs the snot out of me | 13:15 |
| snap-l | I could never get the hang of Thursdays | 13:24 |
| jrwren | that is one of the reasons I dislike android | 13:27 |
| jrwren | snap-l: wasn't it Tuesdays? | 13:27 |
| snap-l | No, it's Thursday | 13:29 |
| snap-l | I looked it up. :) | 13:29 |
| shakes808 | brousch: would you rather code in JAVA or Obj-C? | 13:34 |
| snap-l | shakes808: Tough call | 13:34 |
| snap-l | Though I have far more respect for ObjC than Java. | 13:34 |
| brousch | shakes808: Python | 13:36 |
| snap-l | http://stackoverflow.com/a/690760/535883 <- The comment on this just hurt my brain | 13:36 |
| shakes808 | snap-l: Why is that? | 13:37 |
| snap-l | Or "Remember, Objective-C works like Java, just remember to add asterisks to variables that point to Obj-C objects." – Yar Jun 14 '10 at 3:43 | 13:37 |
| brousch | alloc? | 13:38 |
| brousch | You have to manage your own memory? | 13:38 |
| snap-l | Saying it's just like Java makes me cry | 13:38 |
| jrwren | snap-l: excellent. Thursdays! | 13:38 |
| jrwren | i'd rather code in obj-c than java. Hello Closures! :) | 13:38 |
| snap-l | "just add asterisks" belies a lack of understanding for what those asterisks mean | 13:38 |
| jrwren | yes, and low and medium grade computer science deptarments hand out compsci degrees to kids that never understand them | 13:39 |
| jrwren | objective-c works like java the same way that python works like scheme | 13:40 |
| snap-l | I had a hard time with pointers, and was like a monkey just adding asterisks | 13:40 |
| snap-l | I wish someone would have spent more time teaching me C than teaching me pascal | 13:40 |
| devinheitmueller | If one asterisk doesn't work, just add another! | 13:40 |
| snap-l | unfortunately I wasn't ready at the time | 13:40 |
| jrwren | while I like what joel says about students and pointers, I do think that better teachers could teach them... better :) | 13:40 |
| jrwren | turbo pascal has pointers in a way very similar to C IIRC | 13:41 |
| snap-l | Well, they're quite simple, but also an easy way to get yourself into trouble | 13:41 |
| brousch | I would plug in 1 *, then **, then & until it worked | 13:41 |
| jrwren | rofl, you guys are just depressing me. | 13:41 |
| devinheitmueller | brousch: you forgot (void *).... | 13:42 |
| devinheitmueller | :-) | 13:42 |
| brousch | After I switched majors they switched to Java from C++ | 13:42 |
| snap-l | brousch: I can neither confirm or deny that I've done that in the past. :\ | 13:42 |
| jrwren | brousch: the sign of a shitty school right there, be glad you changed majors :) | 13:42 |
| devinheitmueller | Many, if not most, schools switched from C++ to Java in the mid 1990's. | 13:43 |
| brousch | jrwren: That was The University of Michigan | 13:43 |
| snap-l | Yeah, I don't quite understand why Java became PAscal++ | 13:43 |
| devinheitmueller | I guess what I said isn't contradictory to jrwren. | 13:43 |
| snap-l | Java is pretty shitty as a learning language. | 13:44 |
| brousch | I think they switched because they were pushing OO and Java was pure OO. Also it's easier to learn than C++ | 13:44 |
| snap-l | I'm glad Python is taking over the role of the learning language | 13:44 |
| snap-l | at least it's pretty consistent in it's behavior. | 13:45 |
| jrwren | brousch: Umich what? flint? | 13:46 |
| jrwren | brousch: i know for sure that umich AA never switched from C++ to anything. I work with a lot of recent grads and their mastery if C++ is very impressive | 13:47 |
| jrwren | for universities, java was great, most profs are shitty programmers and dont' really understand c++ certainly not well enough to teach it. So shitty profs and poor CS dept. flocked to java. | 13:48 |
| rick_h_ | devinheitmueller: yea, GMI/Kettering was doing Java when I was there in 96/97/98 | 13:48 |
| rick_h_ | at UM Flint when I was there algo was C++ with Java as its own class | 13:48 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: WHAT?!? in 96 they were still doing Modula-2 ! | 13:48 |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: no, java | 13:48 |
| snap-l | jrwren: I think they just didn't want to get into memory mamagement concepts early on | 13:49 |
| jrwren | snap-l: that is very valid. that is what scheme is for :) | 13:49 |
| snap-l | unfortunately, it bred some pretty poor concepts. | 13:49 |
| snap-l | jrwren: God, I did Modula-2 and ADA in school (89-93) | 13:49 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: my best friend went in 95/96 and did modula-2 for his intro and algorithms courses. | 13:49 |
| rick_h_ | javascript for learning! so easy to use/do. | 13:49 |
| brousch | jrwren: It would have been probably 1997. U-M Ann Arbor, LSA Comp Sci, not EECS | 13:49 |
| brousch | I don't know what they did after 1999 | 13:50 |
| snap-l | ADA was a fucking disaster of a language. | 13:50 |
| jrwren | brousch: must have been a brief experiment, its all C++ now, most guys I know went through LSA | 13:50 |
| snap-l | It was like everything you hated about strong typing, with COBOL thrown in for good measure | 13:50 |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: don't know then. I had several fraternity/dorn guys in CS doing Java | 13:50 |
| jrwren | weird. | 13:50 |
| devinheitmueller | From what I understand at the time, the goal was to introduce people to programming without having to learn the nuances of pointers (which are often a trouble spot for newer programmers). They got what they wanted, unfortunately. | 13:50 |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: I was doing MSE at the time so wasn't taking them myself | 13:50 |
| jrwren | snap-l: I love ADA. | 13:50 |
| snap-l | devinheitmueller: IN spades | 13:50 |
| devinheitmueller | I think the breakdown was that most of those people *never* ended up learning pointers. | 13:51 |
| jrwren | yup | 13:51 |
| devinheitmueller | ... which most fans of high level languages might argue as evolution. | 13:51 |
| snap-l | jrwren: OK< I'm looking at some examples (it's been since 1993 since I touched Ada) | 13:52 |
| devinheitmueller | My father used to complain that the invention of the C compiler resulted in highly inefficient code. | 13:52 |
| devinheitmueller | .... compared to assembly which is what he worked in. | 13:52 |
| snap-l | and I have to say... Um... | 13:52 |
| snap-l | Ada is not as bad as I remember it. | 13:52 |
| snap-l | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Control_structures | 13:52 |
| snap-l | In fact, it looks... pythonic. ;) | 13:53 |
| snap-l | If Python had Pascal as an ancestor like Ada did | 13:53 |
| jrwren | yay! | 13:54 |
| snap-l | I hated Python initially too | 13:54 |
| jrwren | i still hate python :) | 13:55 |
| snap-l | jrwren: bullshit. :) | 13:55 |
| jrwren | i love python initially, then the 1.4 to 1.6 broke my code and it pissed me off. | 13:56 |
| rick_h_ | you're supposed to hate every language you use else you don't know it well enough | 13:56 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: EXACTLY! | 13:56 |
| shakes808 | So with all this back and forth with the different languages, what is the prospect of Python become a standard? | 13:56 |
| snap-l | shakes808: Don't worry about standards | 13:56 |
| rick_h_ | there's no such thing as a programming language being the standard | 13:56 |
| jrwren | shakes808: i don't understand the question. | 13:56 |
| shakes808 | and a standard for what? (example: C++ with games) | 13:56 |
| snap-l | Those are for people who don't want to spend time developing and understanding | 13:56 |
| rick_h_ | they exist for a reason...though ruby I don't quite get still...and best tool for the job | 13:56 |
| snap-l | Python is not as blessed with game development libraries like C / C++ is | 13:57 |
| shakes808 | Doesn't everything get broken down to Assembly? | 13:57 |
| snap-l | shakes808: Machine language | 13:57 |
| rick_h_ | well games == performance and python isn't going to be C speeds | 13:58 |
| snap-l | Assembly is a bit of a different beast | 13:58 |
| rick_h_ | best tool for job | 13:58 |
| shakes808 | yeah, but isn't Assembly the "first" language before maching? | 13:58 |
| shakes808 | machine | 13:58 |
| snap-l | shakes808: assembly is just a standard for us to understand what's going on in the machine | 13:58 |
| snap-l | it's not what the machine passes around internally | 13:58 |
| snap-l | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_language#Assembly_languages | 13:59 |
| snap-l | but yes, it eventually all gets moved down to machine code | 14:01 |
| snap-l | the difference is how many layers it takes to get there | 14:02 |
| snap-l | C is fast because it writes code specific to the processor architecture | 14:02 |
| shakes808 | So, if everything gets brought down to the machine code, could you make a game like CoD in straight machine code? | 14:03 |
| snap-l | shakes808: You could, but there's a catch | 14:04 |
| snap-l | You'd have to know exactly what hardware you're running on (CPU, video card, etc) | 14:04 |
| snap-l | Direct X takes some of that burden off of you with helper functions | 14:05 |
| snap-l | Open GL is the same way | 14:05 |
| snap-l | so you call some function to open a window and draw something instead of (broad strokes) poking values directly onto the GPU and hoping you don't mess up along the way | 14:06 |
| shakes808 | So what is working behind the scene when using DX or OGL, is figuring out what hardware you are running and optimizing the code to work with your specific hardware? | 14:06 |
| snap-l | and interfacing with the windowing environment | 14:06 |
| snap-l | and making sure you have access to the sound subsystem | 14:06 |
| snap-l | and handling input from external devices | 14:06 |
| snap-l | and making sure you exit cleanly when you're done | 14:07 |
| snap-l | Which is why the development for something like the original Castle Wolfenstein and Doom were so remarkable. | 14:08 |
| snap-l | er, Wolfenstein 3D | 14:09 |
| shakes808 | love those games lol.... Yeah, they were pushing the envelope with graphics back then. Games are continually pushing that barrier. | 14:09 |
| snap-l | Though the older games were remarkable in their own right, because a lot of them were assembly. | 14:09 |
| shakes808 | That is why games are important to the evolution of quite a few things lol. | 14:10 |
| snap-l | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Crawford_(game_designer) | 14:10 |
| snap-l | ^- one of my heroes | 14:10 |
| snap-l | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWEt7DdUTaU | 14:11 |
| snap-l | This is a series with him and Jason Rohrer about game design | 14:11 |
| snap-l | I'd watch it, for nothing else but to understand more about game design from a master craftsman | 14:12 |
| snap-l | (it has several parts, and I wish I could get it on DVD) | 14:12 |
| jrwren | What? no link to John Carmack? | 14:18 |
| jrwren | the other catch to "writing machine code" is that you probably aren't smart enough. | 14:19 |
| jrwren | and I don't mean that as an insult. | 14:19 |
| jrwren | I mean most people aren't smart enough, and by most I don't mean 90% or 99%, I mean 99.99% or more | 14:19 |
| snap-l | jrwren: None taken. You have to really understand the machine | 14:19 |
| jrwren | how many instructions are there on x86_64 ? | 14:19 |
| jrwren | including SSE adn all versions of SSE{234} | 14:20 |
| snap-l | Which one? There's variations with each of them | 14:20 |
| jrwren | the fastest ways to do something... | 14:20 |
| jrwren | exactly. | 14:20 |
| jrwren | the fastest call on one chip is not the fastest call on another. | 14:20 |
| snap-l | I find it interesting that RISC ultimately won, by emulating CISC | 14:20 |
| jrwren | snap-l: haha, yup. | 14:20 |
| snap-l | http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24592_APM_v1.pdf | 14:27 |
| jrwren | yeah, those volumes and intels equiv are great, but DAMN that is a lot of information | 14:29 |
| jrwren | adn you really have to know it all to be better than a compiler. | 14:29 |
| jrwren | and really, there is no reason, as in ZERO reason to write machine code directly. a good macro assembler does the same thing. | 14:29 |
| snap-l | http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593271046.do | 14:30 |
| jrwren | a lot of the macros are pretty nice and not THAT different from an imperative langauge. | 14:30 |
| snap-l | This is an excellent (if a bit dated) book on the internals | 14:30 |
| jrwren | I took a course on it in college. | 14:30 |
| snap-l | jrwren: I'm throwing that out for everyone else. :) | 14:31 |
| jrwren | and designed my own CPU with my own SIMD instructions | 14:31 |
| snap-l | I know you surf sinewaves in you sleep | 14:31 |
| jrwren | no, I actually wish I did. | 14:31 |
| snap-l | ;) | 14:31 |
| jrwren | i'm making it sound WAY cooler than it was. | 14:31 |
| snap-l | http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780735611313.do <- this is also a neat book | 14:32 |
| jrwren | i just realized we are about 1/2 way between ubuntu release cycles | 14:32 |
| snap-l | Yeah, I know | 14:32 |
| jrwren | yes, but its written by Petzold, so I'm less receptive :) | 14:32 |
| jrwren | j/k, Petzold is great. | 14:32 |
| jrwren | I like how Code talks about Braile :) | 14:33 |
| snap-l | Yeah, it's one of the few Microsoft books I like. ;) | 14:33 |
| snap-l | rick_h_: Did you have a chance to play with Squeeze Player? | 15:20 |
| rick_h_ | snap-l: I gave it a half hearted attempt to run it and gave up when it just hung spinning | 15:47 |
| snap-l | bummer | 15:51 |
| rick_h_ | snap-l: I'll try to play with it some more, but haven't had much time since last night yet. | 15:52 |
| snap-l | Yeah, no worries. | 15:52 |
| rick_h_ | but did see if it would work out this morning for fun | 15:52 |
| rick_h_ | this is why I need a year off to hack on bookie http://heynemann.github.com/r3/ | 15:54 |
| rick_h_ | that would be fun to tinker with if we had a few thousand users | 15:54 |
| snap-l | In order to use r³ you must have a redis database running. Getting one up in your system is beyond the scope of this document. | 15:55 |
| snap-l | putting it mildly. ;) | 15:55 |
| rick_h_ | hmm, I wonder if the input stream setup would be too slow to really break the thing open | 15:58 |
| rick_h_ | the big thing with hadoop is HFS which makes that stuff work nicely | 15:58 |
| jrwren | hadoop runs on JVM, adn so does not exist to me. | 16:30 |
| rick_h_ | heh, so no lucene or jenkins | 16:30 |
| rick_h_ | those are the big 3 java I don't avoid still | 16:31 |
| jrwren | right. | 16:31 |
| jrwren | pylucene!!! | 16:32 |
| rick_h_ | but that only talks to lucene...it still needs to run | 16:32 |
| rick_h_ | "extension for accessing Java Lucene" | 16:32 |
| jrwren | er... damn, there was someone who had a port. | 16:32 |
| rick_h_ | whoosh is good for small stuff, xapian or elastic I guess | 16:32 |
| jrwren | maybe that is what I was thinking | 16:33 |
| rick_h_ | those are my big 4 in fulltext (whoosh just being because I'm python and it's python) | 16:34 |
| jrwren | xapian sounds familiar. | 16:36 |
| jrwren | elastic is too generic a name. | 16:36 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.elasticsearch.org/ | 16:36 |
| jrwren | cool but still jabba. | 16:38 |
| jrwren | i'm morally opposed to jabba | 16:38 |
| snap-l | jrwren: How can you hate on Java? It's awesome. Especially Tomcat. It's like it gives you a coffee-break before it can even serve "Hello World" | 16:40 |
| brousch | Java is awesome. It gives me Eclipse and Android | 16:50 |
| brousch | I'm dropping Python and going full-on Java | 16:50 |
| snap-l | That's not the only thing that dropped. Apparently you were dropped on your head. :) | 16:54 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro: must be giddy, he's been pushing for years for web app integration and finally talked mark into putting a full team on it :P | 17:40 |
| rick_h_ | and sneaky mark getting everyone to need to use the indicators and such to make it all work | 17:41 |
| brousch | Eh? Ubuntu is turning into Jolicloud? | 17:42 |
| rick_h_ | brousch: go look at twitter or G+ it's getting swamped out there | 17:42 |
| jjesse | so you have to be connected to internet then? | 17:43 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/07/19/web-app-integration-in-ubuntu/ | 17:43 |
| jcastro | FINALLY. | 17:43 |
| rick_h_ | http://blog.canonical.com/2012/07/19/introducing-ubuntu-web-apps-setting-the-web-free-of-the-browser/ | 17:43 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro: hah! | 17:43 |
| rick_h_ | I wanted to see a slide at the end of hte video that was "NOW LEAVE US ALONG JORGE!" | 17:44 |
| jjesse | so its basically using a bookmark on the dekstop? | 17:44 |
| rick_h_ | no, using web servie apis to integrate with the existing tooling/apis of unity | 17:44 |
| rick_h_ | so it's a lot more in depth than just a bookmark | 17:44 |
| rick_h_ | at least it appears, my first time seeing it is this video as well so not seen the code/work to add a new service | 17:45 |
| jcastro | so like, when you get mail and stuff it's integrated with the launcher and indicators | 17:45 |
| jcastro | you can use the hud to "compose a message" | 17:45 |
| jcastro | and so on | 17:45 |
| krondor_ | so now Google can just ditch chromeos right and run native unity? :P | 17:46 |
| jjesse | intersting | 17:47 |
| brousch | jcastro: Does it handle mutiple accounts? Like I have Gmail for home and Google Apps for work | 17:48 |
| jcastro | yeah afaik it treats each one as a sandbox | 17:48 |
| jcastro | so you can have like, an icon for work mail, one for home mail | 17:49 |
| jcastro | I haven't played with it yet though | 17:49 |
| jjesse | and then the launcher to compse a message would have to pick? | 17:49 |
| brousch | That would be nice | 17:49 |
| brousch | jcastro: Quit improving Unity. I might be tempted to try it again | 17:50 |
| rick_h_ | lol | 18:13 |
| rick_h_ | poor brousch has to rethink the hate :P | 18:13 |
| snap-l | Hah | 18:21 |
| brousch | I don't hate it. There are just a few non-configurable usability things that annoy me enough to not use it | 18:29 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro: doh, the techcrunch interview says it's powered by some FF extensions | 18:43 |
| rick_h_ | thankfully doing chrome extensions is a ton easier than FF ones | 18:43 |
| krondor_ | is it normal to want to hit people that use the term "putty" over "ssh"? | 18:53 |
| rick_h_ | I think the normal thing is to look at them like they're stupid and you don't know what they're talking about | 18:54 |
| snap-l | krondor_: No graybeard court would convict you. | 18:54 |
| krondor_ | I think it just means I need to wrap things up early today | 18:55 |
| snap-l | krondor_: Just tell them to stop using a wannabe Macintosh | 18:56 |
| krondor_ | I think that would offend in multiple subtle ways, nice! | 18:57 |
| snap-l | I work hard to offend so you don't have to. :) | 18:58 |
| jrwren | jjesse: don't believe the hype, its a bookmark on the desktop or in the unity search menu | 19:09 |
| rick_h_ | lol | 19:12 |
| jjesse | hype ignroed | 19:12 |
| === randy__ is now known as JaceAlvejetti | ||
| rick_h_ | cool, looks like chrome extentions already there. https://code.launchpad.net/~webapps/unity-chromium-extension/precise | 23:21 |
| rick_h_ | curious to look at how they tested the extension | 23:22 |
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