[00:27] mutt [00:27] bah [00:35] Not sure you do not want to see your neighbors dinking around all day. [11:35] morning [12:47] morning [12:49] morning shakes808 [12:53] hey shakes808, everything cool? Not seen you around CHC for a while [12:53] or is snap-l putting you to extra work :P [12:56] rick_h_: Yeah, everything is fine. The summers get a little hectic for me. I get my son a lot more and I do side jobs that pick up a little more. You know, anything to do fun things with my son :D [12:56] I should be there next week. [12:56] shakes808: How old is your son? [12:56] 6 [12:57] shakes808: ah, all good stuff then [12:57] shakes808: ok cool, wanted to make sure we didn't scare you off or anything [12:59] HA HA no. I am actually switching gears a little on my programming. My buddy wants to do some games and other little projects, so he and I have been setting up his server so that I can access it and have been testing that out. Getting back to C++ and I am using Eclipse, which I don't know too well. C++ within Linux is interesting or within Eclipse, not sure since they are two new variables. I am used to MS VS and what not [13:03] And possibly another one using JAVA. .... should be fun lol [13:04] java? sounds depressing :P [13:05] lol He is mainly a JAVA dev on his own time and what he is focusing on in his studies. He works with C#. He likes some of the things that C# has and is creating his own library to implement some of the same features in JAVA. I guess with whatever he is working on in JAVA there isn't any good libraries for it already. [13:06] jabba! [13:06] ever time I see a jvm installed on a system, I die a little inside [13:07] lol [13:07] c++ in linux is so damned easy compared to windows C++ that it hurts. [13:08] teh windows APIs are so complex compared to most of the linux libraries for C++ that i don't know why people dev or windows. [13:08] *for* [13:13] i know it is judgemental of me, but I honestly think very little of anyone who chooses to program in java. [13:13] elitist! :P [13:13] nah. [13:13] hater! [13:14] this is a case of ANYTHING else would be ok. [13:14] yeah, hater. [13:14] but i feel it is an informed hate. [13:14] You need Java to dev for Android [13:15] That bugs the snot out of me [13:24] I could never get the hang of Thursdays [13:27] that is one of the reasons I dislike android [13:27] snap-l: wasn't it Tuesdays? [13:29] No, it's Thursday [13:29] I looked it up. :) [13:34] brousch: would you rather code in JAVA or Obj-C? [13:34] shakes808: Tough call [13:34] Though I have far more respect for ObjC than Java. [13:36] shakes808: Python [13:36] http://stackoverflow.com/a/690760/535883 <- The comment on this just hurt my brain [13:37] snap-l: Why is that? [13:37] Or "Remember, Objective-C works like Java, just remember to add asterisks to variables that point to Obj-C objects." – Yar Jun 14 '10 at 3:43 [13:38] alloc? [13:38] You have to manage your own memory? [13:38] Saying it's just like Java makes me cry [13:38] snap-l: excellent. Thursdays! [13:38] i'd rather code in obj-c than java. Hello Closures! :) [13:38] "just add asterisks" belies a lack of understanding for what those asterisks mean [13:39] yes, and low and medium grade computer science deptarments hand out compsci degrees to kids that never understand them [13:40] objective-c works like java the same way that python works like scheme [13:40] I had a hard time with pointers, and was like a monkey just adding asterisks [13:40] I wish someone would have spent more time teaching me C than teaching me pascal [13:40] If one asterisk doesn't work, just add another! [13:40] unfortunately I wasn't ready at the time [13:40] while I like what joel says about students and pointers, I do think that better teachers could teach them... better :) [13:41] turbo pascal has pointers in a way very similar to C IIRC [13:41] Well, they're quite simple, but also an easy way to get yourself into trouble [13:41] I would plug in 1 *, then **, then & until it worked [13:41] rofl, you guys are just depressing me. [13:42] brousch: you forgot (void *).... [13:42] :-) [13:42] After I switched majors they switched to Java from C++ [13:42] brousch: I can neither confirm or deny that I've done that in the past. :\ [13:42] brousch: the sign of a shitty school right there, be glad you changed majors :) [13:43] Many, if not most, schools switched from C++ to Java in the mid 1990's. [13:43] jrwren: That was The University of Michigan [13:43] Yeah, I don't quite understand why Java became PAscal++ [13:43] I guess what I said isn't contradictory to jrwren. [13:44] Java is pretty shitty as a learning language. [13:44] I think they switched because they were pushing OO and Java was pure OO. Also it's easier to learn than C++ [13:44] I'm glad Python is taking over the role of the learning language [13:45] at least it's pretty consistent in it's behavior. [13:46] brousch: Umich what? flint? [13:47] brousch: i know for sure that umich AA never switched from C++ to anything. I work with a lot of recent grads and their mastery if C++ is very impressive [13:48] for universities, java was great, most profs are shitty programmers and dont' really understand c++ certainly not well enough to teach it. So shitty profs and poor CS dept. flocked to java. [13:48] devinheitmueller: yea, GMI/Kettering was doing Java when I was there in 96/97/98 [13:48] at UM Flint when I was there algo was C++ with Java as its own class [13:48] rick_h_: WHAT?!? in 96 they were still doing Modula-2 ! [13:48] jrwren: no, java [13:49] jrwren: I think they just didn't want to get into memory mamagement concepts early on [13:49] snap-l: that is very valid. that is what scheme is for :) [13:49] unfortunately, it bred some pretty poor concepts. [13:49] jrwren: God, I did Modula-2 and ADA in school (89-93) [13:49] rick_h_: my best friend went in 95/96 and did modula-2 for his intro and algorithms courses. [13:49] javascript for learning! so easy to use/do. [13:49] jrwren: It would have been probably 1997. U-M Ann Arbor, LSA Comp Sci, not EECS [13:50] I don't know what they did after 1999 [13:50] ADA was a fucking disaster of a language. [13:50] brousch: must have been a brief experiment, its all C++ now, most guys I know went through LSA [13:50] It was like everything you hated about strong typing, with COBOL thrown in for good measure [13:50] jrwren: don't know then. I had several fraternity/dorn guys in CS doing Java [13:50] weird. [13:50] From what I understand at the time, the goal was to introduce people to programming without having to learn the nuances of pointers (which are often a trouble spot for newer programmers). They got what they wanted, unfortunately. [13:50] jrwren: I was doing MSE at the time so wasn't taking them myself [13:50] snap-l: I love ADA. [13:50] devinheitmueller: IN spades [13:51] I think the breakdown was that most of those people *never* ended up learning pointers. [13:51] yup [13:51] ... which most fans of high level languages might argue as evolution. [13:52] jrwren: OK< I'm looking at some examples (it's been since 1993 since I touched Ada) [13:52] My father used to complain that the invention of the C compiler resulted in highly inefficient code. [13:52] .... compared to assembly which is what he worked in. [13:52] and I have to say... Um... [13:52] Ada is not as bad as I remember it. [13:52] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Control_structures [13:53] In fact, it looks... pythonic. ;) [13:53] If Python had Pascal as an ancestor like Ada did [13:54] yay! [13:54] I hated Python initially too [13:55] i still hate python :) [13:55] jrwren: bullshit. :) [13:56] i love python initially, then the 1.4 to 1.6 broke my code and it pissed me off. [13:56] you're supposed to hate every language you use else you don't know it well enough [13:56] rick_h_: EXACTLY! [13:56] So with all this back and forth with the different languages, what is the prospect of Python become a standard? [13:56] shakes808: Don't worry about standards [13:56] there's no such thing as a programming language being the standard [13:56] shakes808: i don't understand the question. [13:56] and a standard for what? (example: C++ with games) [13:56] Those are for people who don't want to spend time developing and understanding [13:56] they exist for a reason...though ruby I don't quite get still...and best tool for the job [13:57] Python is not as blessed with game development libraries like C / C++ is [13:57] Doesn't everything get broken down to Assembly? [13:57] shakes808: Machine language [13:58] well games == performance and python isn't going to be C speeds [13:58] Assembly is a bit of a different beast [13:58] best tool for job [13:58] yeah, but isn't Assembly the "first" language before maching? [13:58] machine [13:58] shakes808: assembly is just a standard for us to understand what's going on in the machine [13:58] it's not what the machine passes around internally [13:59] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_language#Assembly_languages [14:01] but yes, it eventually all gets moved down to machine code [14:02] the difference is how many layers it takes to get there [14:02] C is fast because it writes code specific to the processor architecture [14:03] So, if everything gets brought down to the machine code, could you make a game like CoD in straight machine code? [14:04] shakes808: You could, but there's a catch [14:04] You'd have to know exactly what hardware you're running on (CPU, video card, etc) [14:05] Direct X takes some of that burden off of you with helper functions [14:05] Open GL is the same way [14:06] so you call some function to open a window and draw something instead of (broad strokes) poking values directly onto the GPU and hoping you don't mess up along the way [14:06] So what is working behind the scene when using DX or OGL, is figuring out what hardware you are running and optimizing the code to work with your specific hardware? [14:06] and interfacing with the windowing environment [14:06] and making sure you have access to the sound subsystem [14:06] and handling input from external devices [14:07] and making sure you exit cleanly when you're done [14:08] Which is why the development for something like the original Castle Wolfenstein and Doom were so remarkable. [14:09] er, Wolfenstein 3D [14:09] love those games lol.... Yeah, they were pushing the envelope with graphics back then. Games are continually pushing that barrier. [14:09] Though the older games were remarkable in their own right, because a lot of them were assembly. [14:10] That is why games are important to the evolution of quite a few things lol. [14:10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Crawford_(game_designer) [14:10] ^- one of my heroes [14:11] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWEt7DdUTaU [14:11] This is a series with him and Jason Rohrer about game design [14:12] I'd watch it, for nothing else but to understand more about game design from a master craftsman [14:12] (it has several parts, and I wish I could get it on DVD) [14:18] What? no link to John Carmack? [14:19] the other catch to "writing machine code" is that you probably aren't smart enough. [14:19] and I don't mean that as an insult. [14:19] I mean most people aren't smart enough, and by most I don't mean 90% or 99%, I mean 99.99% or more [14:19] jrwren: None taken. You have to really understand the machine [14:19] how many instructions are there on x86_64 ? [14:20] including SSE adn all versions of SSE{234} [14:20] Which one? There's variations with each of them [14:20] the fastest ways to do something... [14:20] exactly. [14:20] the fastest call on one chip is not the fastest call on another. [14:20] I find it interesting that RISC ultimately won, by emulating CISC [14:20] snap-l: haha, yup. [14:27] http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24592_APM_v1.pdf [14:29] yeah, those volumes and intels equiv are great, but DAMN that is a lot of information [14:29] adn you really have to know it all to be better than a compiler. [14:29] and really, there is no reason, as in ZERO reason to write machine code directly. a good macro assembler does the same thing. [14:30] http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593271046.do [14:30] a lot of the macros are pretty nice and not THAT different from an imperative langauge. [14:30] This is an excellent (if a bit dated) book on the internals [14:30] I took a course on it in college. [14:31] jrwren: I'm throwing that out for everyone else. :) [14:31] and designed my own CPU with my own SIMD instructions [14:31] I know you surf sinewaves in you sleep [14:31] no, I actually wish I did. [14:31] ;) [14:31] i'm making it sound WAY cooler than it was. [14:32] http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780735611313.do <- this is also a neat book [14:32] i just realized we are about 1/2 way between ubuntu release cycles [14:32] Yeah, I know [14:32] yes, but its written by Petzold, so I'm less receptive :) [14:32] j/k, Petzold is great. [14:33] I like how Code talks about Braile :) [14:33] Yeah, it's one of the few Microsoft books I like. ;) [15:20] rick_h_: Did you have a chance to play with Squeeze Player? [15:47] snap-l: I gave it a half hearted attempt to run it and gave up when it just hung spinning [15:51] bummer [15:52] snap-l: I'll try to play with it some more, but haven't had much time since last night yet. [15:52] Yeah, no worries. [15:52] but did see if it would work out this morning for fun [15:54] this is why I need a year off to hack on bookie http://heynemann.github.com/r3/ [15:54] that would be fun to tinker with if we had a few thousand users [15:55] In order to use r³ you must have a redis database running. Getting one up in your system is beyond the scope of this document. [15:55] putting it mildly. ;) [15:58] hmm, I wonder if the input stream setup would be too slow to really break the thing open [15:58] the big thing with hadoop is HFS which makes that stuff work nicely [16:30] hadoop runs on JVM, adn so does not exist to me. [16:30] heh, so no lucene or jenkins [16:31] those are the big 3 java I don't avoid still [16:31] right. [16:32] pylucene!!! [16:32] but that only talks to lucene...it still needs to run [16:32] "extension for accessing Java Lucene" [16:32] er... damn, there was someone who had a port. [16:32] whoosh is good for small stuff, xapian or elastic I guess [16:33] maybe that is what I was thinking [16:34] those are my big 4 in fulltext (whoosh just being because I'm python and it's python) [16:36] xapian sounds familiar. [16:36] elastic is too generic a name. [16:36] http://www.elasticsearch.org/ [16:38] cool but still jabba. [16:38] i'm morally opposed to jabba [16:40] jrwren: How can you hate on Java? It's awesome. Especially Tomcat. It's like it gives you a coffee-break before it can even serve "Hello World" [16:50] Java is awesome. It gives me Eclipse and Android [16:50] I'm dropping Python and going full-on Java [16:54] That's not the only thing that dropped. Apparently you were dropped on your head. :) [17:40] jcastro: must be giddy, he's been pushing for years for web app integration and finally talked mark into putting a full team on it :P [17:41] and sneaky mark getting everyone to need to use the indicators and such to make it all work [17:42] Eh? Ubuntu is turning into Jolicloud? [17:42] brousch: go look at twitter or G+ it's getting swamped out there [17:43] so you have to be connected to internet then? [17:43] http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/07/19/web-app-integration-in-ubuntu/ [17:43] FINALLY. [17:43] http://blog.canonical.com/2012/07/19/introducing-ubuntu-web-apps-setting-the-web-free-of-the-browser/ [17:43] jcastro: hah! [17:44] I wanted to see a slide at the end of hte video that was "NOW LEAVE US ALONG JORGE!" [17:44] so its basically using a bookmark on the dekstop? [17:44] no, using web servie apis to integrate with the existing tooling/apis of unity [17:44] so it's a lot more in depth than just a bookmark [17:45] at least it appears, my first time seeing it is this video as well so not seen the code/work to add a new service [17:45] so like, when you get mail and stuff it's integrated with the launcher and indicators [17:45] you can use the hud to "compose a message" [17:45] and so on [17:46] so now Google can just ditch chromeos right and run native unity? :P [17:47] intersting [17:48] jcastro: Does it handle mutiple accounts? Like I have Gmail for home and Google Apps for work [17:48] yeah afaik it treats each one as a sandbox [17:49] so you can have like, an icon for work mail, one for home mail [17:49] I haven't played with it yet though [17:49] and then the launcher to compse a message would have to pick? [17:49] That would be nice [17:50] jcastro: Quit improving Unity. I might be tempted to try it again [18:13] lol [18:13] poor brousch has to rethink the hate :P [18:21] Hah [18:29] I don't hate it. There are just a few non-configurable usability things that annoy me enough to not use it [18:43] jcastro: doh, the techcrunch interview says it's powered by some FF extensions [18:43] thankfully doing chrome extensions is a ton easier than FF ones [18:53] is it normal to want to hit people that use the term "putty" over "ssh"? [18:54] I think the normal thing is to look at them like they're stupid and you don't know what they're talking about [18:54] krondor_: No graybeard court would convict you. [18:55] I think it just means I need to wrap things up early today [18:56] krondor_: Just tell them to stop using a wannabe Macintosh [18:57] I think that would offend in multiple subtle ways, nice! [18:58] I work hard to offend so you don't have to. :) [19:09] jjesse: don't believe the hype, its a bookmark on the desktop or in the unity search menu [19:12] lol [19:12] hype ignroed === randy__ is now known as JaceAlvejetti [23:21] cool, looks like chrome extentions already there. https://code.launchpad.net/~webapps/unity-chromium-extension/precise [23:22] curious to look at how they tested the extension