[00:27] <snap-l> mutt
[00:27] <snap-l> bah
[00:35] <rick_h_droid> Not sure you do not want to see your neighbors dinking around all day.
[11:35] <rick_h_droid> morning
[12:47] <shakes808> morning
[12:49] <MaskedDriver> morning shakes808
[12:53] <rick_h_> hey shakes808, everything cool? Not seen you around CHC for a while
[12:53] <rick_h_> or is snap-l putting you to extra work :P
[12:56] <shakes808> rick_h_: Yeah, everything is fine. The summers get a little hectic for me. I get my son a lot more and I do side jobs that pick up a little more. You know, anything to do fun things with my son :D
[12:56] <shakes808> I should be there next week.
[12:56] <brousch> shakes808: How old is your son?
[12:56] <shakes808> 6
[12:57] <rick_h_> shakes808: ah, all good stuff then
[12:57] <rick_h_> shakes808: ok cool, wanted to make sure we didn't scare you off or anything
[12:59] <shakes808> HA HA no. I am actually switching gears a little on my programming. My buddy wants to do some games and other little projects, so he and I have been setting up his server so that I can access it and have been testing that out. Getting back to C++ and I am using Eclipse, which I don't know too well. C++ within Linux is interesting or within Eclipse, not sure since they are two new variables. I am used to MS VS and what not
[13:03] <shakes808> And possibly another one using JAVA. .... should be fun lol
[13:04] <rick_h_> java? sounds depressing :P
[13:05] <shakes808> lol He is mainly a JAVA dev on his own time and what he is focusing on in his studies. He works with C#. He likes some of the things that C# has and is creating his own library to implement some of the same features in JAVA. I guess with whatever he is working on in JAVA there isn't any good libraries for it already.
[13:06] <jrwren> jabba!
[13:06] <jrwren> ever time I see a jvm installed on a system, I die a little inside
[13:07] <shakes808> lol
[13:07] <jrwren> c++ in linux is so damned easy compared to windows C++ that it hurts.
[13:08] <jrwren> teh windows APIs are so complex compared to most of the linux libraries for C++ that i don't know why people dev or windows.
[13:08] <jrwren> *for*
[13:13] <jrwren> i know it is judgemental of me, but I honestly think very little of anyone who chooses to program in java.
[13:13] <rick_h_> elitist! :P
[13:13] <jrwren> nah.
[13:13] <brousch> hater!
[13:14] <jrwren> this is a case of ANYTHING else would be ok.
[13:14] <jrwren> yeah, hater.
[13:14] <jrwren> but i feel it is an informed hate.
[13:14] <brousch> You need Java to dev for Android
[13:15] <brousch> That bugs the snot out of me
[13:24] <snap-l> I could never get the hang of Thursdays
[13:27] <jrwren> that is one of the reasons I dislike android
[13:27] <jrwren> snap-l: wasn't it Tuesdays?
[13:29] <snap-l> No, it's Thursday
[13:29] <snap-l> I looked it up. :)
[13:34] <shakes808> brousch: would you rather code in JAVA or Obj-C?
[13:34] <snap-l> shakes808: Tough call
[13:34] <snap-l> Though I have far more respect for ObjC than Java.
[13:36] <brousch> shakes808: Python
[13:36] <snap-l> http://stackoverflow.com/a/690760/535883 <- The comment on this just hurt my brain
[13:37] <shakes808> snap-l: Why is that?
[13:37] <snap-l> Or "Remember, Objective-C works like Java, just remember to add asterisks to variables that point to Obj-C objects." – Yar Jun 14 '10 at 3:43
[13:38] <brousch> alloc?
[13:38] <brousch> You have to manage your own memory?
[13:38] <snap-l> Saying it's just like Java makes me cry
[13:38] <jrwren> snap-l: excellent. Thursdays!
[13:38] <jrwren> i'd rather code in obj-c than java.  Hello Closures! :)
[13:38] <snap-l> "just add asterisks" belies a lack of understanding for what those asterisks mean
[13:39] <jrwren> yes, and low and medium grade computer science deptarments hand out compsci degrees to kids that never understand them
[13:40] <jrwren> objective-c works like java the same way that python works like scheme
[13:40] <snap-l> I had a hard time with pointers, and was like a monkey just adding asterisks
[13:40] <snap-l> I wish someone would have spent more time teaching me C than teaching me pascal
[13:40] <devinheitmueller> If one asterisk doesn't work, just add another!
[13:40] <snap-l> unfortunately I wasn't ready at the time
[13:40] <jrwren> while I like what joel says about students and pointers, I do think that better teachers could teach them... better :)
[13:41] <jrwren> turbo pascal has pointers in a way very similar to C IIRC
[13:41] <snap-l> Well, they're quite simple, but also an easy way to get yourself into trouble
[13:41] <brousch> I would plug in 1 *, then **, then & until it worked
[13:41] <jrwren> rofl, you guys are just depressing me.
[13:42] <devinheitmueller> brousch: you forgot (void *)....
[13:42] <devinheitmueller> :-)
[13:42] <brousch> After I switched majors they switched to Java from C++
[13:42] <snap-l> brousch: I can neither confirm or deny that I've done that in the past. :\
[13:42] <jrwren> brousch: the sign of a shitty school right there, be glad you changed majors :)
[13:43] <devinheitmueller> Many, if not most, schools switched from C++ to Java in the mid 1990's.
[13:43] <brousch> jrwren: That was The University of Michigan
[13:43] <snap-l> Yeah, I don't quite understand why Java became PAscal++
[13:43] <devinheitmueller> I guess what I said isn't contradictory to jrwren.
[13:44] <snap-l> Java is pretty shitty as a learning language.
[13:44] <brousch> I think they switched because they were pushing OO and Java was pure OO. Also it's easier to learn than C++
[13:44] <snap-l> I'm glad Python is taking over the role of the learning language
[13:45] <snap-l> at least it's pretty consistent in it's behavior.
[13:46] <jrwren> brousch: Umich what? flint?
[13:47] <jrwren> brousch: i know for sure that umich AA never switched from C++ to anything. I work with a lot of recent grads and their mastery if C++ is very impressive
[13:48] <jrwren> for universities, java was great, most profs are shitty programmers and dont' really understand c++ certainly not well enough to teach it. So shitty profs and poor CS dept. flocked to java.
[13:48] <rick_h_> devinheitmueller: yea, GMI/Kettering was doing Java when I was there in 96/97/98
[13:48] <rick_h_> at UM Flint when I was there algo was C++ with Java as its own class
[13:48] <jrwren> rick_h_: WHAT?!? in 96 they were still doing Modula-2 !
[13:48] <rick_h_> jrwren: no, java
[13:49] <snap-l> jrwren: I think they just didn't want to get into memory mamagement concepts early on
[13:49] <jrwren> snap-l: that is very valid. that is what scheme is for :)
[13:49] <snap-l> unfortunately, it bred some pretty poor concepts.
[13:49] <snap-l> jrwren: God, I did Modula-2 and ADA in school (89-93)
[13:49] <jrwren> rick_h_: my best friend went in 95/96 and did modula-2 for his intro and algorithms courses.
[13:49] <rick_h_> javascript for learning! so easy to use/do.
[13:49] <brousch> jrwren: It would have been probably 1997. U-M Ann Arbor, LSA Comp Sci, not EECS
[13:50] <brousch> I don't know what they did after 1999
[13:50] <snap-l> ADA was a fucking disaster of a language.
[13:50] <jrwren> brousch: must have been a brief experiment, its all C++ now, most guys I know went through LSA
[13:50] <snap-l> It was like everything you hated about strong typing, with COBOL thrown in for good measure
[13:50] <rick_h_> jrwren: don't know then. I had several fraternity/dorn guys in CS doing Java
[13:50] <jrwren> weird.
[13:50] <devinheitmueller> From what I understand at the time, the goal was to introduce people to programming without having to learn the nuances of pointers (which are often a trouble spot for newer programmers).  They got what they wanted, unfortunately.
[13:50] <rick_h_> jrwren: I was doing MSE at the time so wasn't taking them myself
[13:50] <jrwren> snap-l: I love ADA.
[13:50] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: IN spades
[13:51] <devinheitmueller> I think the breakdown was that most of those people *never* ended up learning pointers.
[13:51] <jrwren> yup
[13:51] <devinheitmueller> ... which most fans of high level languages might argue as evolution.
[13:52] <snap-l> jrwren: OK< I'm looking at some examples (it's been since 1993 since I touched Ada)
[13:52] <devinheitmueller> My father used to complain that the invention of the C compiler resulted in highly inefficient code.
[13:52] <devinheitmueller> .... compared to assembly which is what he worked in.
[13:52] <snap-l> and I have to say... Um...
[13:52] <snap-l> Ada is not as bad as I remember it.
[13:52] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)#Control_structures
[13:53] <snap-l> In fact, it looks... pythonic. ;)
[13:53] <snap-l> If Python had Pascal as an ancestor like Ada did
[13:54] <jrwren> yay!
[13:54] <snap-l> I hated Python initially too
[13:55] <jrwren> i still hate python :)
[13:55] <snap-l> jrwren: bullshit. :)
[13:56] <jrwren> i love python initially, then the 1.4 to 1.6 broke my code and it pissed me off.
[13:56] <rick_h_> you're supposed to hate every language you use else you don't know it well enough
[13:56] <jrwren> rick_h_: EXACTLY!
[13:56] <shakes808> So with all this back and forth with the different languages, what is the prospect of Python become a standard?
[13:56] <snap-l> shakes808: Don't worry about standards
[13:56] <rick_h_> there's no such thing as a programming language being the standard
[13:56] <jrwren> shakes808: i don't understand the question.
[13:56] <shakes808> and a standard for what? (example: C++ with games)
[13:56] <snap-l> Those are for people who don't want to spend time developing and understanding
[13:56] <rick_h_> they exist for a reason...though ruby I don't quite get still...and best tool for the job
[13:57] <snap-l> Python is not as blessed with game development libraries like C / C++ is
[13:57] <shakes808> Doesn't everything get broken down to Assembly?
[13:57] <snap-l> shakes808: Machine language
[13:58] <rick_h_> well games == performance and python isn't going to be C speeds
[13:58] <snap-l> Assembly is a bit of a different beast
[13:58] <rick_h_> best tool for job
[13:58] <shakes808> yeah, but isn't Assembly the "first" language before maching?
[13:58] <shakes808> machine
[13:58] <snap-l> shakes808: assembly is just a standard for us to understand what's going on in the machine
[13:58] <snap-l> it's not what the machine passes around internally
[13:59] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_language#Assembly_languages
[14:01] <snap-l> but yes, it eventually all gets moved down to machine code
[14:02] <snap-l> the difference is how many layers it takes to get there
[14:02] <snap-l> C is fast because it writes code specific to the processor architecture
[14:03] <shakes808> So, if everything gets brought down to the machine code, could you make a game like CoD in straight machine code?
[14:04] <snap-l> shakes808: You could, but there's a catch
[14:04] <snap-l> You'd have to know exactly what hardware you're running on (CPU, video card, etc)
[14:05] <snap-l> Direct X takes some of that burden off of you with helper functions
[14:05] <snap-l> Open GL is the same way
[14:06] <snap-l> so you call some function to open a window and draw something instead of (broad strokes) poking values directly onto the GPU and hoping you don't mess up along the way
[14:06] <shakes808> So what is working behind the scene when using DX or OGL, is figuring out what hardware you are running and optimizing the code to work with your specific hardware?
[14:06] <snap-l> and interfacing with the windowing environment
[14:06] <snap-l> and making sure you have access to the sound subsystem
[14:06] <snap-l> and handling input from external devices
[14:07] <snap-l> and making sure you exit cleanly when you're done
[14:08] <snap-l> Which is why the development for something like the original Castle Wolfenstein and Doom were so remarkable.
[14:09] <snap-l> er, Wolfenstein 3D
[14:09] <shakes808> love those games lol.... Yeah, they were pushing the envelope with graphics back then. Games are continually pushing that barrier.
[14:09] <snap-l> Though the older games were remarkable in their own right, because a lot of them were assembly.
[14:10] <shakes808> That is why games are important to the evolution of quite a few things lol.
[14:10] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Crawford_(game_designer)
[14:10] <snap-l> ^- one of my heroes
[14:11] <snap-l> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWEt7DdUTaU
[14:11] <snap-l> This is a series with him and Jason Rohrer about game design
[14:12] <snap-l> I'd watch it, for nothing else but to understand more about game design from a master craftsman
[14:12] <snap-l> (it has several parts, and I wish I could get it on DVD)
[14:18] <jrwren> What? no link to John Carmack?
[14:19] <jrwren> the other catch to "writing machine code" is that you probably aren't smart enough.
[14:19] <jrwren> and I don't mean that as an insult.
[14:19] <jrwren> I mean most people aren't smart enough, and by most I don't mean 90% or 99%, I mean 99.99% or more
[14:19] <snap-l> jrwren: None taken. You have to really understand the machine
[14:19] <jrwren> how many instructions are there on x86_64 ?
[14:20] <jrwren> including SSE adn all versions of SSE{234}
[14:20] <snap-l> Which one? There's variations with each of them
[14:20] <jrwren> the fastest ways to do something...
[14:20] <jrwren> exactly.
[14:20] <jrwren> the fastest call on one chip is not the fastest call on another.
[14:20] <snap-l> I find it interesting that RISC ultimately won, by emulating CISC
[14:20] <jrwren> snap-l: haha, yup.
[14:27] <snap-l> http://support.amd.com/us/Processor_TechDocs/24592_APM_v1.pdf
[14:29] <jrwren> yeah, those volumes and intels equiv are great, but DAMN that is a lot of information
[14:29] <jrwren> adn you really have to know it all to be better than a compiler.
[14:29] <jrwren> and really, there is no reason, as in ZERO reason to write machine code directly. a good macro assembler does the same thing.
[14:30] <snap-l> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9781593271046.do
[14:30] <jrwren> a lot of the macros are pretty nice and not THAT different from an imperative langauge.
[14:30] <snap-l> This is an excellent (if a bit dated) book on the internals
[14:30] <jrwren> I took a course on it in college.
[14:31] <snap-l> jrwren: I'm throwing that out for everyone else. :)
[14:31] <jrwren> and designed my own CPU with my own SIMD instructions
[14:31] <snap-l> I know you surf sinewaves in you sleep
[14:31] <jrwren> no, I actually wish I did.
[14:31] <snap-l> ;)
[14:31] <jrwren> i'm making it sound WAY cooler than it was.
[14:32] <snap-l> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780735611313.do <- this is also a neat book
[14:32] <jrwren> i just realized we are about 1/2 way between ubuntu release cycles
[14:32] <snap-l> Yeah, I know
[14:32] <jrwren> yes, but its written by Petzold, so I'm less receptive :)
[14:32] <jrwren> j/k, Petzold is great.
[14:33] <jrwren> I like how Code talks about Braile :)
[14:33] <snap-l> Yeah, it's one of the few Microsoft books I like. ;)
[15:20] <snap-l> rick_h_: Did you have a chance to play with Squeeze Player?
[15:47] <rick_h_> snap-l: I gave it a half hearted attempt to run it and gave up when it just hung spinning
[15:51] <snap-l> bummer
[15:52] <rick_h_> snap-l: I'll try to play with it some more, but haven't had much time since last night yet.
[15:52] <snap-l> Yeah, no worries.
[15:52] <rick_h_> but did see if it would work out this morning for fun
[15:54] <rick_h_> this is why I need a year off to hack on bookie http://heynemann.github.com/r3/
[15:54] <rick_h_> that would be fun to tinker with if we had a few thousand users
[15:55] <snap-l> In order to use r³ you must have a redis database running. Getting one up in your system is beyond the scope of this document.
[15:55] <snap-l> putting it mildly. ;)
[15:58] <rick_h_> hmm, I wonder if the input stream setup would be too slow to really break the thing open
[15:58] <rick_h_> the big thing with hadoop is HFS which makes that stuff work nicely
[16:30] <jrwren> hadoop runs on JVM, adn so does not exist to me.
[16:30] <rick_h_> heh, so no lucene or jenkins
[16:31] <rick_h_> those are the big 3 java I don't avoid still
[16:31] <jrwren> right.
[16:32] <jrwren> pylucene!!!
[16:32] <rick_h_> but that only talks to lucene...it still needs to run
[16:32] <rick_h_> "extension for accessing Java Lucene"
[16:32] <jrwren> er... damn, there was someone who had a port.
[16:32] <rick_h_> whoosh is good for small stuff, xapian or elastic I guess
[16:33] <jrwren> maybe that is what I was thinking
[16:34] <rick_h_> those are my big 4 in fulltext (whoosh just being because I'm python and it's python)
[16:36] <jrwren> xapian sounds familiar.
[16:36] <jrwren> elastic is too generic a name.
[16:36] <rick_h_> http://www.elasticsearch.org/
[16:38] <jrwren> cool but still jabba.
[16:38] <jrwren> i'm morally opposed to jabba
[16:40] <snap-l> jrwren: How can you hate on Java? It's awesome. Especially Tomcat. It's like it gives you a coffee-break before it can even serve "Hello World"
[16:50] <brousch> Java is awesome. It gives me Eclipse and Android
[16:50] <brousch> I'm dropping Python and going full-on Java
[16:54] <snap-l> That's not the only thing that dropped. Apparently you were dropped on your head. :)
[17:40] <rick_h_> jcastro: must be giddy, he's been pushing for years for web app integration and finally talked mark into putting a full team on it :P
[17:41] <rick_h_> and sneaky mark getting everyone to need to use the indicators and such to make it all work
[17:42] <brousch> Eh? Ubuntu is turning into Jolicloud?
[17:42] <rick_h_> brousch: go look at  twitter or G+ it's getting swamped out there
[17:43] <jjesse> so you have to be connected to internet then?
[17:43] <rick_h_> http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/07/19/web-app-integration-in-ubuntu/
[17:43] <jcastro> FINALLY.
[17:43] <rick_h_> http://blog.canonical.com/2012/07/19/introducing-ubuntu-web-apps-setting-the-web-free-of-the-browser/
[17:43] <rick_h_> jcastro: hah!
[17:44] <rick_h_> I wanted to see a slide at the end of hte video that was "NOW LEAVE US ALONG JORGE!"
[17:44] <jjesse> so its basically using a bookmark on the dekstop?
[17:44] <rick_h_> no, using web servie apis to integrate with the existing tooling/apis of unity
[17:44] <rick_h_> so it's a lot more in depth than just a bookmark
[17:45] <rick_h_> at least it appears, my first time seeing it is this video as well so not seen the code/work to add a new service
[17:45] <jcastro> so like, when you get mail and stuff it's integrated with the launcher and indicators
[17:45] <jcastro> you can use the hud to "compose a message"
[17:45] <jcastro> and so on
[17:46] <krondor_> so now Google can just ditch chromeos right and run native unity? :P
[17:47] <jjesse> intersting
[17:48] <brousch> jcastro: Does it handle mutiple accounts? Like I have Gmail for home and Google Apps for work
[17:48] <jcastro> yeah afaik it treats each one as a sandbox
[17:49] <jcastro> so you can have like, an icon for work mail, one for home mail
[17:49] <jcastro> I haven't played with it yet though
[17:49] <jjesse> and then the launcher to compse a message would have to pick?
[17:49] <brousch> That would be nice
[17:50] <brousch> jcastro: Quit improving Unity. I might be tempted to try it again
[18:13] <rick_h_> lol
[18:13] <rick_h_> poor brousch has to rethink the hate :P
[18:21] <snap-l> Hah
[18:29] <brousch> I don't hate it. There are just a few non-configurable usability things that annoy me enough to not use it
[18:43] <rick_h_> jcastro: doh, the techcrunch interview says it's powered by some FF extensions
[18:43] <rick_h_> thankfully doing chrome extensions is a ton easier than FF ones
[18:53] <krondor_> is it normal to want to hit people that use the term "putty" over "ssh"?
[18:54] <rick_h_> I think the normal thing is to look at them like they're stupid and you don't know what they're talking about
[18:54] <snap-l> krondor_: No graybeard court would convict you.
[18:55] <krondor_> I think it just means I need to wrap things up early today
[18:56] <snap-l> krondor_: Just tell them to stop using a wannabe Macintosh
[18:57] <krondor_> I think that would offend in multiple subtle ways, nice!
[18:58] <snap-l> I work hard to offend so you don't have to. :)
[19:09] <jrwren> jjesse: don't believe the hype, its a bookmark on the desktop or in the unity search menu
[19:12] <rick_h_> lol
[19:12] <jjesse> hype ignroed
[23:21] <rick_h_> cool, looks like chrome extentions already there. https://code.launchpad.net/~webapps/unity-chromium-extension/precise
[23:22] <rick_h_> curious to look at how they tested the extension