=== diddledan is now known as zz_diddledan === zz_diddledan is now known as diddledan [06:25] GOOD MORNING PRETTIES [06:43] \o [07:00] Morning all [07:33] morning diplo, MartijnVdS \o/ [07:37] Too many beers were had last night :( [07:37] * diplo is getting old it seems [07:37] morning all [07:38] can't tell you much about the Olympics opening ceremony, but it will be well worth watching and it won't be like anything you have seen before [07:43] AlanBell: Still probably won't watch it. [07:43] diplo: hehe [07:44] surely there is no such thing as Too Many Beers? [07:44] Well, no tea and then drinking meant I felt a little worse for wear by the time we got to the last pub [07:44] I honestly think the heat had a part to play in it last night [07:44] Couldn't believe how hot it stayed till quite late [07:45] hehe [07:45] morning [07:45] yeah it was lovely, i sat outside till about 11:30 just enjoying everything being Quiet :) [07:48] I think I was well in bed by then ( very very unusual for me ) [07:48] hehe [07:57] What are people doing today then ? [08:03] Good morning peeps! [08:04] morning :) [08:10] Morning All [08:10] Ug [08:10] bigcalm_laptop: prod, wake up [08:10] czajkowski: prod Morning [08:11] good morning bigcalm_laptop :) === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk === schwuk is now known as schwuk_away [08:19] morning [08:21] GOOD MORNING NAURA [08:21] <3 [08:21] morning morning morning [08:21] * mattt falls asleep on keyboard [08:26] good morning everyone. [08:30] Good morning! [08:30] morning <3 [08:30] morning christel and BigRedS [08:32] christel: hehehe [08:32] beautiful day [08:36] anyone make it to the openstack meetup last night? [08:36] oh yes, how was that naura czajkowski ? [08:37] the view from that building was amazing :P [08:37] very good [08:37] :) [08:37] over 1000 people in attendance [08:37] *100 [08:37] even [08:37] briilliant :) [08:37] O.o [08:37] https://twitter.com/mattt416/status/228229175566299137/photo/1/large [08:37] * mattt wants an office there [08:37] mattt: were you at it ? [08:37] still 100 is rather a lot [08:38] AlanBell: sssh, she doesn't know how to count ;) [08:38] czajkowski: yepper [08:38] well you suck for not coming and saying hi so [08:38] AlanBell: OVER 100 :) [08:38] czajkowski: was with my wife, she'd have called me a dork for going up to strangers from IRC [08:38] :P [08:38] poor logic [08:38] so we;re going to have one each month [08:38] except August due to some poxy games lark [08:39] will ned to keep better management of time however [08:39] we only got around to one lightening talk [08:39] ah, were there more scheduled? [08:39] it'd be nice if you could have a few sessions, break, then go back in [08:39] got a bit hot in there after a while [08:41] Morning all! :) [08:41] czajkowski: what was the guy's name in the orange ubuntu shirt who organized? [08:42] Mark baker [08:42] it was very warm in there [08:44] great, will ping him to see if i can help sponsor the next one [08:45] mattt: do you want his address [08:46] czajkowski: please, would save me googling for it :) [08:46] np [08:46] mattt: sent to pm [08:46] So, an actualy linux question from me, we use F1->F5 for our character based system, anyone know how to bind keys in terminator or if need be gnome-terminal in 12.04 ? [08:54] hum, yes. yes. i quite like 80mbit internet. it pleases me. [08:56] quite chuffed, i made a script to do automated unity testing in a vm last night [08:56] it's probably awful [08:56] given I'm not really a coder :) [08:57] running ap? [08:57] ya [08:57] badger badger [08:57] neato [08:57] clones a vm, ssh's into it and runs it all then scps the logs out and shuts it down [08:57] you can specify a ppa and packages names on the command line [08:57] my machine hangs badly when performing i/o (e.g. apt-get upgrade ) - any suggestions as to what i can do ? (without buying new hardware) === matthew is now known as Guest9550 [08:57] its been a while since i ran ap, does it still take about an hour to complete? ;) [08:57] so you can run two in parallel, one as a base and one with extra packages === Guest9550 is now known as SuperMatt [08:57] ~30-40 mins here [08:57] i'm running unity in virtualbox at the moment, it's really slow [08:57] this is why i wanted to automate it [08:58] unity in virtualbox flies for me, its great [08:58] same here [08:58] make sure to install the guest additions from virtual box themselves not the repos [08:58] when i click outside virtualbox and then click back inside the virtualbox, the VM hangs for about 30 seconds [08:58] oh i have the repo one [08:58] repo additions work for me [08:58] virtualbox-guest-x11 [08:58] but always install from the guest's repos [08:59] I should put this script in bzr for you to all laugh at :) [08:59] i had bad experiences with the repo ones or a while, they could of upgraded them [08:59] don't install from the host repos and inject them into the guest if the host is an older release [09:01] lp is jolly slow today [09:02] I'll gladly kick it [09:02] although that many anger the demi gods the lpadders [09:04] Finished the morning's admin, I can do proper work at last! [09:04] * bigcalm_laptop flakes out in here [09:06] mwahaha nothings slow anymoooore [09:06] not even launchpad [09:07] gord: now you have fast interwebs, you can come and join us :P [09:07] bigcalm_laptop: come do my invoicing [09:08] guys, i cant handle firefox any longer - can anyone advise what's the privacy issue with chrome when compared with chromium? [09:08] hola ubunteros [09:08] christel: do you think I'm crazy? [09:09] :( [09:09] what's crazy about doing my invoices? :( [09:09] The answer is yes [09:09] hehe [09:10] I gotz a question: is there a way to attach a panel on which other apps can attach and rest? Since the Global Menu has supplanted the regular panel in gnome 2 some apps I fear do not show icon anymore. Particularly, one screencapture app I need/love Clip2Net isn't running in Ubuntu Unity. [09:12] bigcalm_laptop: oor, i could beam a hologram of me? [09:12] you guys have a shrine of me when i'm not there right? [09:13] just put me on webcam in the middle o that [09:13] of* [09:13] Haha [09:14] its that or I have to revert back to some form of classic ubuntu... Mate, cinnammon and what not [09:16] livingdaylight, you can whitelist apps [09:16] someting perhaps to do with g/conf but I dont' know noting about it [09:16] whitelist? [09:17] http://www.howtogeek.com/68119/how-to-bring-app-icons-back-into-unitys-system-tray/ maybe this will help [09:19] interesting [09:19] i just have ['JavaEmbeddedFrame', 'Wine', 'Update-notifier'] [09:19] in that key [09:19] explains why my skype never shows an icon [09:19] however i have to wonder how that happened [09:19] they are the defaults ali1234 [09:19] * AlanBell looks foward to the BBQ on Saturday \o/ [09:20] oimon: skype is supposed to be whiteisted by default [09:20] AlanBell: you are having that somewhere down south right? [09:20] gord: yes, surrey [09:21] well, adding skype didn't make it appear in the tray [09:21] i guess it's just broken [09:21] weather forecast is looking paddling poolish [09:21] ah, bit far for me, take video of popey ironing something on like a swing or something [09:21] is skype the name of the app? [09:21] i don't think it's the process name, but some other name [09:21] how should i know? [09:22] may be case senstivie too [09:22] yes, the trampoline will be out too ;) [09:22] czajkowski: no stillettos on the trampoline [09:22] also sound is breaking up again [09:22] pulseaudio: still broken after several years [09:22] ali1234, do you have unsettings installed? [09:23] no idea [09:23] * popey moves somewhere nicer [09:23] it's a cute app for tweaking unity, also features whitelist [09:23] i set it to "all" and it still doesn't work [09:24] grep TrayChild "${HOME}/.xsession-errors" [09:24] oh hang on [09:24] try that ^^ [09:24] Skype needs capital S [09:24] gord: Where are you based ? [09:24] diplo: crewe [09:25] Hmm, probably a bit far then, was going to say if you didn't want to drive all the way down I could do halfway thing [09:25] But that's a fair old way [09:25] About 75/80 miles for me [09:25] yeah there we go. indicator applet complete doesn't actually handle the tray [09:26] now to figure out why sound is messed up yet again [09:26] now can anyone help me hide the pop-under that appears for updates? i want them to appear old style in the systray without the pop under [09:34] Looks like I've found a talk for Oggcamp, and it wasn't even anywhere near what I was originally intending to talk about [09:40] AlanBell: no fear I'm flip flop happy [09:40] czajkowski: in that case you can certainly bounce on the trampoline [09:40] and bounce bounce SNAP goes my spine [09:40] I'll avoid it :) [09:40] hows that [09:40] and send Jon and the chicken on it [09:40] that works too [09:41] don't want to send you home in pieces [09:41] rawr [09:41] yes, let's not break czajkowski [09:41] that'd be sad :( [09:42] well, this dconf appears broken or its not resolving my issue on any count [09:44] daubers: oh do tell [09:44] I wonder if this cafe is serving me decafe coffee [09:44] * bigcalm_laptop falls asleep [09:45] (or would like to) [09:45] * christel eyes the brief from her client [09:45] christel: Clients are sending you underwear now? [09:45] i wish! [09:45] it was a job brief ;) [09:46] i have to be concise, sleek and punchy as the visual style of the campaign is very minemalistic, bold and focused on the image of the product.. apparently [09:46] PUNCHY! [09:46] fully buzzword compliant [09:46] indeed! [09:46] also it needs to be 20% cooler [09:47] So what do you do for a job christel ? [09:47] $client is presenting "Print 3.0" as a new philosophy for printing redefined! (being a play on the concepts of web 1.0 and 2.0) [09:48] umm [09:48] diplo: i write words ;) [09:48] in a concise, sleek and punchy manner apparently [09:49] diplo: i translate/copy-write/transcreate etc :) [09:49] Nice [09:49] czajkowski: I'd intended to do something on hackspaces (because that's kinda becoming a passion I think) but looks like work will take precedence and I'll need to do something on finding out what people want from dev jobs and how to find devs (as 5 agencies have so far failed) [09:49] Lot's of work out there ? [09:50] daubers: one can always do 2 [09:50] way too much -- i outsource probably about 80% of the stuff that passes through [09:50] perhaps one can be a lightening talk === Twinkletoes is now known as Guest37356 [10:30] used to love gnome ubuntu, but finding the experience frustrating at every turn since unity, albeit s improvements, and don't know where to turn to. kde? hrmmm :s [10:34] livingdaylight: what are you trying to do in dconf [10:34] livingdaylight, frustrating how? [10:35] davmor2, enable it so clip2net would show on systray. It worked, but regardlessly, the app still no longer works in Unity. [10:35] popey, system feels fragile at every turn [10:35] can you be more specific? [10:35] having many apps open and navigating from one workspace to another seems to weaken the apps over time [10:37] I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "weaken the apps" [10:37] my laptop is running 12.04 for example and I have about 8 apps open which have been open for a couple of days. [10:38] UNITY is a waste of time [10:38] I've suspended, resumed multiple times [10:38] Niyakun, useful feedback, thanks [10:38] UNITY is the worst thing ever created [10:38] Niyakun, troll elsewhere please [10:38] ever noticed how trolls capitalize? i see the same from people moaning about "MONO" [10:38] the way the windows function, navigating back and forth... At first the file menu will show, but over time they will no longer. Skype meanders across other workspaces... and will not activate after clicking icon - works intermittently [10:39] popey: It is not trolling, Unity makes it harder to work [10:39] Niyakun, works for me [10:40] livingdaylight, is this an issue only with skype, or other apps too? [10:40] popey: in GNOME 2 you could click and get a menu, point to a submenu and lauch an app easily, in UNITY, you got to type the name, isn't it more work? [10:40] nope [10:40] I can launch apps faster in unity than in GNOME 2 [10:41] tap super, type au, press enter, and I have audacity open [10:41] no waiting for menus [10:41] firefox too... I finally cut clip2net to sit in systray after playing with dconf but when I launched it, entire screen went berserk and had to reboot [10:41] Waiting for alt-F2 to start working irritates the crap out of me in Unity, tbh [10:41] I find it harder to type with the keyboard than point with the mouse [10:41] livingdaylight, never heard of clip2net, sorry [10:41] i could go through my bookmarks to find a website i want, or i could just type it in the address bar and have firefoxes awesomebar find it [10:41] Niyakun: Ah, then you'd likely be better off with a more menu-driven DE, perhaps [10:42] Unity, as with all software, doesn't work well for everyone, that's why there's so many [10:42] Niyakun: well, it is nominally quicker, if you can keep your hands on the keyboard, and you dont need to shuffle hands back and forth. [10:42] also, arriving in an ubuntu channel, and the first words out of your mouth being "UNITY is a waste of time" [10:42] popey, alt+f2 existed before and we had gnome-do, so there were quick ways of launching apps in gnome 2 also. But its more the feeling of stability and navigating between workspaces now in unity which feels worser for Unity [10:42] that _is_ troll behaviour, whether you think it is or not [10:42] i agree that unity has a bunch of steps backwards, workflow wise, at least for me and the users i support. but it's less terrible than gnome shell [10:42] livingdaylight: alt-f2 wasn't as searching as the windwos key thing is now [10:43] it *is* now in unity, which is broken IMO [10:43] what if I am in a place that is dark, I can't read the keys. In case of a mouse, it is not a problem, you can point anywhere [10:43] turn a light on [10:43] popey: it is not worth it [10:43] Niyakun: then install something else [10:43] XFCE's a lot like Gnome 2 [10:43] so's MATE and Cinnamon [10:43] Nobody's forcing you to use Unity any more than they used to force you to use Gnome 2 [10:44] it's just a default, and one which you're free to change [10:44] as the BBC say "Other desktops are available" [10:44] yes I know, however IMO it is a stupid idea to keep a broken DE like UNITY as the default one [10:44] All DEs are broken [10:44] Niyakun: that's okay hit window key + a and setup up the applications lens with filtering and then you are presented with the old gnome 2 categories [10:44] BigRedS, you're most probably right. I'm just describing my own personal user-experience and reticence vis a vis unity and feel I must search elsewhere for a stable os. just not sure where though :s [10:44] Every one of them has objective flaws [10:44] and even more subjective ones. You pick the one whose flaws irritate you the least and go with that [10:45] or.. you could go into an ubuntu channel and tell the people who work on it that it's useless? [10:45] the default is the one judged to irritate people the least. IME, lots of people don't have a problem with Unity [10:45] yes, that's a much better idea [10:45] that one wins [10:45] maybe they just all have lightbulbs? [10:45] livingdaylight: Gnome3 works for me pretty well [10:45] alt-f2 behaves teh same as gnome2 which is the biggie :) [10:45] BigRedS: UNITY most likely irritates 90% of people [10:46] Niyakun: not in my experience [10:46] Niyakun, [citation needed] [10:46] (and nor does Unity) [10:46] The left panel takes a lot of space [10:46] imagine how great it could be if those 90% contributed to improving it then [10:46] directhex, I'm not super impressed with gnome shell either. I gave Deepin a whirl and wasn't overimpressed, which is why I came back to Ubuntu. I don't mind Unity too much. I set it to Autohide and consider it as a docky on the side, but the word you used "workflow" is good... and i agree it is setps backwards... stability is also an issue for me. [10:47] unity for sure is a step backwards [10:47] livingdaylight: anything that's not gnome2 (or whatever you're used to) is going to feel unimpressive to begin with [10:47] Niyakun: what are you expecting to gain from repeating that mantra? [10:47] BigRedS: alt_f2 in unity is run command and also shows run command history too [10:47] BigRedS, good for you... :) but if someone is experiencing issues and all you can say in reply is "well, its working for me" well, it doesn't help or change my mind :) [10:47] Niyakun: you're not going to convert anyone - we've generally made our minds up by using it [10:48] davmor2: yeah, but if I hit alt-F2 within about 30seconds of logging in, enter something and hit enter nothing happens [10:48] BigRedS: if you are a dev, possibly remove it as the default, else wait till Ubuntu becomes the least popular distro [10:48] I need to wait for it to do whatever it needs to do to be able to show search resultsm, and *then* it starts working [10:48] BigRedS: works here [10:48] livingdaylight: I'm not trying to change your mind [10:48] I was just suggesting an alternative [10:48] I've long since stopped caring what software other people use, so long as I get to use software that doesn't annoy me too much [10:49] davmor2: I have same issue as BigRedS as well, and i mentioed the other day about dash taking quite a while to open [10:49] Niyakun: How is repeatedly saying "Unity is a step backwards" going to solve that? [10:49] So I just use gnome do for quick launching :) [10:50] BigRedS, i've given unity a good whirl but if apps I like don't function when they used to over the years, which is why i've even got used to them, then that is retrograde. and the apps that I do have struggle functioning seemlessly thaat also makes me uncomforatble. One wants to feel like one is sitting inside a solid relaiable vehicle, so to speak [10:50] livingdaylight: yeah. I agree. I'm not sure why you're saying all this :) [10:51] err, not sure anymore either lol... [10:52] livingdaylight: try xubuntu, it's more like the old gnome2 that you are used to, I'd try it in a vm initially [10:52] i was just airing my feelings, and popey wanted specifics and you're telling me how marvelous it actually is :) so it carried on... The point is I don't quite know where to turn now [10:52] Yay for xubuntu-desktop \o/ [10:52] livingdaylight, i was trying to figure out if there were bugs we should work on [10:52] livingdaylight: ah, no, I'm not really a lover of Unity. I just know people who are. [10:52] we can't work on wooly "no longer works" type statements, thats all [10:53] I just remember when I started using Gnome3 and it felt awful and very not-gnome2, but now it seems brilliant [10:53] A few hours isn't, IMO, really enough time to get a good feel of a DE [10:53] livingdaylight: feel free to write bugs on apps that don't function with steps to reproduce and then the community and devs can work on it [10:54] livingdaylight, my team are responsible for releasing new versions / updates to unity, so it's good for us to know the specifics of what is broken so we can feed back to the developers, and target the right bits to fix [10:54] livingdaylight: The UNITY icons are too large on a desktop. You got to move the cursor more. It is not a phone, so I don't see any reason for having so large icons [10:54] I actually quite liked unity as a launcher and the Global menu also as it removed one unnecessary panel, leaving more room for screen realestate, its actually a shame having to admit that from a practical and functional point of view, being honest, it is letting me down. I have no emotional or political bias or investment... I mean I was never a hater, so, I don't fall innto that category. but hopefully feedbac [10:54] k is taken onboard and not just swept aside with "it works great for me, here" [10:54] Niyakun, my icons are 32x32 which isnt large [10:54] livingdaylight, feedback _is_ taken on board if it's given in a useful way [10:55] it's bigger than I'd make them. But it's adjustable isn't it, anyway? [10:55] yes [10:55] Niyakun, they can be made smaller, the icons... As i had it on Autohide, it left even more room for screen real-estate and I actually left icons default size after trying it smaller. default felt balanced size for screen [10:55] i tried 64x64 for fun the other day :) [10:56] and I thought *I* had odd hobbies :) [10:56] which company started the massive icon idea? i'm not thinking of fisher price either [10:56] livingdaylight: I then need to install it on a spare PC. Last time, on my netbook, it wasn't responsive and CPU usage was high, so I removed it [10:56] davmor2, yea, xubuntu... I like the bells and whistles of gnome on a powerful desktop at least.. [10:57] livingdaylight, so, do you have specific bugs to report? [10:57] hi guys, how to test Imagemagick is installed successful ? under centOS ? [10:57] i've found my desktop sweet spot, i hope it continues [10:57] KungFuPanda, you may be in the wrong place [10:58] but rpm -q imagemagick might help? [10:58] centOS is definitely a wrong place to be [10:58] KungFuPanda, or run a command like convert [10:58] hah [10:58] Niyakun, i don't knwo whether it is a resource hog or not, maybe, but icon-size wise with Auto-hide mode i don't find it an encumbrance... What I don't like or what I prefer, in gnome2 is how the workspaces are laid out and how one can navigagte between them and add more than 4. The quadrant in unity and switching between them is a nightmare, imo [10:58] popey, I did [10:58] livingdaylight, the bugs you've just described? [10:58] got bug numbers? [10:59] popey, I'd love to know whether clip2net works for you in unity [10:59] i have no idea what clip2net even is [10:59] its not in the repo [10:59] i don't know how to give them bug numbers - i've described many things which dont work or function stably [11:00] livingdaylight: yeah, workspaces was one of the first things I fixed [11:00] you can change tehm in ccsm [11:00] its a screencapture tool - google it [11:00] thanks, rpm -q, package imagemagick is not installed, damn install imagemagick under centOs is hard, [11:00] BigRedS, for real? tell me, please [11:00] yeah [11:00] livingdaylight, yes, you have described them here, in irc. but the best way to tell developers something is broken is to file a bug [11:00] apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager (perhaps with different hyphenation) [11:00] then run ccsm [11:00] popey, ok, fair enough... [11:00] and mess around in the 'Unity' section [11:01] livingdaylight, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReportingBugs [11:01] BigRedS, and so, you have the workspaces set how? [11:01] You can 'fix' a lot of the odd design decisions in unity that way [11:01] livingdaylight: I told it I wanted one wide and four high [11:01] but you can tell it whatever you like [11:01] livingdaylight: get a netbook with atom processor (like my aspire one aod250) and put ubuntu. I read that it should default to Unity built on Qt but it did not. It loaded Unity (that runs on gnome) and it wasn't responsive [11:01] and ctrl-alt-arrow moves, but I think that's a default anyway [11:02] ok, i'll have a look, but I'll probably have to move away from Ubuntu for a while until it matures a bit more [11:02] why not just use a different DE under Ubuntu [11:02] ? [11:02] I don't understand this "I dislike Unity so I must use a different distro" thing [11:02] Just seems like a load of unneeded faff [11:02] ctrl-alt arrows moves them, but I never know whether I'm in the top-left quadrant or bottom right etc [11:02] especially since Xubuntu's packaging of XFCE is pretty good [11:03] you never get desktop whinge in windows/mac cos you can't change DE [11:03] livingdaylight: yeah, that's why I made them into a strip [11:03] livingdaylight: you could try screencloud that should give you similar functionality and is built for Ubuntu maybe? it would be good to know how it compares [11:03] well, that and 'cause I kept forgetting there was a sideways [11:03] KungFuPanda: Isn't it in the normal repos on CentOS [11:03] I thought it was [11:03] livingdaylight: it also has an indicator [11:04] BigRedS, dude, its cos its not JUST the workspace issue - its everything! I happen to use a screencapture tool and have been using clip2net for years and it still works in kde and every other non-unity distro - nothing personal [11:04] This version prevents the ImagickPHP class from working properly, and also prevents the extension from being installed via PECL. [11:04] ah right, version issue [11:04] livingdaylight: okay, so just install kde or xfce or gnome or whatever [11:05] I'm not trying to make you use Unity, just explaining what I did to make unity more friendly [11:05] KungFuPanda, have you considered #centos ? [11:05] switching distros because you dislike the default DE sounds like way more hassle than I'd be up for [11:05] so I spent a bit of time fixing unity, and that seems okay [11:05] and when it's not I use a different DE [11:05] BigRedS, and I DO appreciate that, amigo - i do... I 'll still install cssm and give it a whirl [11:05] thanks, yes, I just join a centos# [11:06] Good luck in there, not the friendliest bunch :) [11:07] BigRedS: if someone is using LXDE, there is no point of keeping Ubuntu and seeing the Ubuntu screen on boot [11:08] Niyakun: Ubuntu is more than just the window manager [11:08] Niyakun: why not? [11:09] popey: Beautiful cat mate, keep debating getting another [11:09] yeah, not mine [11:09] oh :D [11:09] I would think if you install lubuntu-desktop you will get lubuntu branding and lxde [11:09] if you didnt, its a bug [11:09] why not install LXDE on tiny core linux [11:10] sure, do that if you want [11:10] do that if you want to [11:10] centos have improved, at least theo other day were v helpful [11:10] Niyakun: You do understand that the DE is not ubuntu, Ubuntu is the whole ecosystem and support [11:11] That's why I still use ubuntu as everything else is what makes it better. [11:11] not the DE [11:11] heh oimon, I left there and vowed not to go back... but probably will at one point. [11:11] #perl was similar as well [11:11] yeah, was much better experience [11:12] keep meaning to just your sl channel [11:12] i changed job a bit, so haven't been using SL for 6 months [11:12] oh, prefer the new work ? [11:12] better not answer that :S [11:13] IBM hardware is absolutely terrible [11:13] shocking [11:13] something breaks every few days, and the firmware is buggy, and it doesn't work well with vmware [11:13] etc etc [11:14] We used to have 2 x Rs/6000's [11:14] You don't need to preach me about their support, software and hardware sucked [11:14] But software was worse [11:15] yeah, java 1GB install just to do something dell would do with an embedded web server [11:15] their version of DRAC absolutely sucks [11:16] i hope someone is sacked for chossing IBM [11:16]