[03:42] <phaedral> ping
[03:43] <len-dt> phaedral, pong
[03:44] <phaedral> Howdy. Just committed my newest machine to ubuntustudio. Thought I'd drop in and listen and learn.
[03:45] <len-dt> Generally pretty quiet here.
[03:45] <len-dt> Feel free to hang around though.
[03:46] <phaedral> Makes sense. Used to run a couple education bots back in '05, part of my law school study program.
[03:46] <len-dt> #opensourcemusicians probably has more traffic
[03:47] <len-dt> Normally though Lots of people leave the irc on and read any back stuff, so if you ask a question leave it on as long as you can.
[03:47] <len-dt> People do respond sooner or later.
[03:47] <phaedral> Perfect.
[03:48] <phaedral> I'm a long time irc user. Patience and manners fix almost everything in time.
[04:39] <phaedral> exit
[04:39] <phaedral> grr
[13:05] <KiteHawk> Anyone know about ubuntu 12.04 and airtime/mixxx/jack setup?
[13:08] <len-dt> KiteHawk, after some playing around.. I found I could run mixxx on one machine but not the other.
[13:09] <len-dt> My desk top video card/driver seems to have problems with mixxx
[13:10] <len-dt> So if I run it on my netbook, it starts and runs fine... but the screen is not big enough to see all the controls.
[13:11] <holstein> when i tried mixxx years ago i got it working no problem
[13:11] <holstein> KiteHawk: i would go one at a time
[13:11] <KiteHawk> hmmm
[13:11] <len-dt> however my desktop with the old nvidia running nouveau as a driver
[13:11] <len-dt> it fails.
[13:11] <holstein> get JACK running and working stable
[13:11] <KiteHawk> interesting thanks for the feedback
[13:11] <holstein> then, move on to mixxx
[13:12] <KiteHawk> i'm wandering if 10.04 can do better with mixx
[13:12] <holstein> also, consider something that doesnt use JACK, or something else
[13:12] <holstein> im using 10.04, but i wouldnt take a step back just yet
[13:12] <holstein> what are you trying to do?
[13:12] <holstein> idjc is nice as well
[13:12] <KiteHawk> i finally got jack running but mixxx is what i need for a live stream
[13:14] <holstein> of? .. i use BUTT, and idjc ...theres several other options
[13:14] <holstein> darkice
[13:15] <holstein> theres nonjack options like ustream
[13:16] <holstein> i would ask the mixxx folks how to force it on unsupported graphics cards, or try different graphics drivers
[13:17] <KiteHawk> i have on board graphics and im trying to setup internet radio station. i had it working with vlc but it would randomly crash occasionally
[13:18] <KiteHawk> how to contact the mixxx folks?
[13:18] <holstein> http://www.mixxx.org/contact/ maybe ... or #mixxx
[13:19] <holstein> id send an email and try idjc while you wait
[13:20] <KiteHawk> thanks #mixxx is there should have tried that tnx
[13:20] <len-dt> I have heard that the old nv drivers are more stable, but lack any accelleration.
[13:21] <len-dt> I have been thinking I should mess  around with this stuff, but I have too much else to do right now.
[13:22] <holstein> i would also try a version ahead, and behind
[13:25] <KiteHawk> lol thanks. yes it looks like i might be going down to 10.04. Should i load studio this time?
[13:26] <KiteHawk> I've loaded studio before and it seemed like it had a bunch of extra stuff that i dont need in it
[13:27] <len-dt> ubuntustudio is ubuntu. so you can do vanilla and add studio metas... but if you are doing 10.04 you can choose not to install everything.
[13:28] <len-dt> However I think holstein was talking about version of mixxx
[13:29] <KiteHawk> yes i understand and not to skip around but i did jump subjects there a little
[13:31] <KiteHawk> Nothing back from mixxx yet i'll let you know what they say
[13:56] <holstein> yeah, i would try an older version of mixxx, and the latest from the site
[13:56] <holstein> KiteHawk: ^
[13:56] <holstein> i am using 10.04, but i wouldnt jump back to it for mixxx
[14:07] <KiteHawk> well i spent 3 days loading the new 12.04 and i don't mind spending another to load 10.04
[14:07] <KiteHawk> i saw tutorials on loading everthing i wanted but they didn't pan out with my architecture i guess
[14:08] <holstein> KiteHawk: sure.. but you are having a graphics card driver issue it seems.. you go back to 10.04, you could have a more challening time
[14:09] <KiteHawk> internal graphics in this case.
[14:09] <KiteHawk> strange that graphics would be the trouble
[14:09] <holstein> KiteHawk: doesnt really matter where or what
[14:09] <holstein> the driver is the issue
[14:09] <KiteHawk> actually maybe i could just go to gnome and my drivers might be more available
[14:10] <holstein> could be some random intel GPU, just outside the scope of support.. or a brand new nvidia card thats not supported yet
[14:10] <holstein> KiteHawk: nope.. drivers are just that
[14:10] <holstein> nothing to do with the DE
[14:10] <holstein> ubuntustudio *is* ubuntu.. and the kernel is the kernel
[14:10] <holstein> drivers tha can be included generally are included
[14:10] <KiteHawk> so all systems look at my graphics the same?
[14:11] <holstein> sometimes different distros support different things, depending on licensing restrictions
[14:11] <holstein> sometimes device support gets dropped after a certain time
[14:11] <holstein> you can always add this upport back in
[14:12] <KiteHawk> so i need to research my architecture a lil more
[14:13] <holstein> KiteHawk: i would also try the generic kernel.. would probably fit your needs with audio just fine, and might be friendlier for your graphics
[14:13] <holstein> is it nvidia?
[14:13] <KiteHawk> yes i need no xtra graphics just enough to run the wave displays.
[14:14] <KiteHawk> it doesn't see any available drivers for it
[14:14] <holstein> KiteHawk: its not an issue of "extra".. its an issue of support
[14:14] <KiteHawk> so its just the generic whatever ubunutu 12.04 comes with
[14:14] <holstein> if mixxx is requiring 3d acceleration, then you'll need drivers that support that
[14:14] <KiteHawk> o damn i didn't know mixxx needed that support
[14:15] <holstein> KiteHawk: have you tried idjc?
[14:15] <holstein> KiteHawk: is it an nvidia?
[14:15] <len-dt> holstein, I suspect it tries to use accell if it is there. The free driver will tell the program it's there. Maybe a driver with no accell will work better.
[14:15] <holstein> there should be an argument to get around it
[14:15] <holstein> to turn it off
[14:16] <holstein> it shouldnt need it... require it
[14:16] <holstein> mixxx that is...
[14:16] <holstein> i just found it busy and cluttered...
[14:16] <holstein> but, im not a DJ, and i dont need a monolithic app to allow that functionality
[14:16] <KiteHawk> yes it seems we would want to have the option to allocate most of the resources to audio?
[14:17] <holstein> darkice lets me stream anything to icecast through JACK
[14:17] <KiteHawk> all i need is to get a stream through airtime
[14:17] <KiteHawk> darkice?
[14:17] <holstein> KiteHawk: that wont be an issue.. you just need the UI to load without trying 3d accell
[14:17] <KiteHawk> yes
[14:18] <holstein> KiteHawk: darkice, BUTT, idjc.. these are some options i much prefer to mixxx
[14:18] <holstein> but, im no DJ... so if you need mixxx, you need it.. though i would just wait on a response from a mixxx user about how to disable 3d
[14:18] <KiteHawk> sweet thanks for the heads up i saw the idjc but hadnt tried it yet
[14:19] <KiteHawk> BUTT?
[14:19] <holstein> http://butt.sourceforge.net/
[14:19] <KiteHawk> do i need all three or are they three different options?
[14:19] <holstein> KiteHawk: you dont "need" any of this, right? ;)
[14:20] <holstein> these are different options, that do different things
[14:20] <holstein> BUTTT doesnt use JACK
[14:20] <holstein> if i dont need the overhead, i dont bother
[14:20] <holstein> i have literally had JACK running on one machine, and sent the audio out through a cable analog to another machine running BUTT without JACK
[14:20] <holstein> i have used netjack to slave one to the other
[14:21] <holstein> i have just used idjc to do it all
[14:22] <KiteHawk> least amount of hassel overhead resource yet still accomplishing streaming internet radio station. I used vlc but it was a lil glitchy when it came to holding a stream seemed to drop off occasionally
[14:22] <holstein> sure, but that could be on the server-sid
[14:22] <holstein> side*
[14:22] <holstein> i would try BUTT, or something easy and send *anything* to that server to test
[14:22] <holstein> in the meantime, you are waiting on a answer about 3d from the mixxx folks
[14:23] <KiteHawk> so its BUTT>Icecast>airtime?
[14:23] <holstein> otherwise, you spend a couple more days troubleshooting mixxx, and find out its a server issue
[14:23] <holstein> KiteHawk: i have not used airtime
[14:23] <holstein> i have my own icecast server
[14:24] <holstein> im not saying, "i havent heard of airtime, so it must be the issue", but i am implying that
[14:24] <KiteHawk> well airtime connects to icecast so that shouldnt b a problem as long as BUTT connects to Icecast
[14:25] <holstein> BUTT does that
[14:25] <KiteHawk> yes i better research a lil more about BUTT to Airtime
[14:25] <holstein> and without JACK.. and stable
[14:25] <holstein> though, i havent used it on 12.04
[14:26] <KiteHawk> i like that it is w out jack something about jack makes me leary
[14:26] <holstein> we got really into streaming in #opensourcemusicians a few years ago.. now i just dont bother..
[14:26] <holstein> KiteHawk: JACK is great.. but if its overkill, its overkill
[14:26] <holstein> if you dont need it, you dont need it...
[14:27] <KiteHawk> yes im doing it for a small community of musicians its fun we webcast our minishows
[14:27] <KiteHawk> does jack improve audio quality above and beyond others?
[14:27] <holstein> KiteHawk: i you dont need it, you dont need it.. its really that simple
[14:28] <holstein> you dont need anything in realtime to stream
[14:28] <holstein> you dont need it to support anything, so if you can get by without it, go for it
[14:28] <KiteHawk> yes i need realtime streaming cause of the live shows
[14:28] <holstein> KiteHawk: you dont
[14:28] <holstein> KiteHawk: realtime would be for this
[14:29] <holstein> you have a midi keyboard.. you play a note, and you want the sound to happen *exactly* when you hit the key
[14:29] <holstein> not 20ms later
[14:29] <holstein> for you... you will have the stream streaming ideally somewhere at less than a minute behind you
[14:29] <holstein> and that'll be network latency
[14:29] <holstein> hardware latency is not something you need to be worried about
[14:30] <holstein> who cares if it takes 3 seconds for the audio to "go through the computer"
[14:30] <KiteHawk> slightly behind is fine
[14:30] <holstein> KiteHawk: slightly is not an option
[14:30] <KiteHawk> ya i agree
[14:30] <holstein> KiteHawk: best we got was using mumble.. running our own servers
[14:30] <holstein> icecast was stable, and typically less than a minute latency
[14:30] <holstein> but, thats not important to a stream anyway
[14:31] <KiteHawk> yeah im not trying to jam across the internet :)
[14:31] <holstein> you *will* get network latency, and the hardware latency you would get in a worst case scenario will be a non issue
[14:31] <holstein> you dont need JACK
[14:32] <holstein> can you use JACK? sure.. is JACK your problem? no
[14:33] <KiteHawk> thanks. Ok i think i might start with a fresh install should i go with ubuntu studio or just ubuntu or what framework is best for this specific use?
[14:33] <holstein> i would get anything running in something simple like BUTT and make sure its not a server issue
[14:33] <holstein> KiteHawk: ubunstudio *is* ubuntu
[14:33] <holstein> KiteHawk: ubuntustudio uses XFCE, and is more closely similar to xubuntu in look and feel
[14:34] <holstein> we all use the same repos, and have the same access to the same resources
[14:34] <holstein> KiteHawk: i would literally go with which ever one works
[14:34] <KiteHawk> yes but there is a reason for the different distributions yes?
[14:35] <holstein> sure.. its a better fit "out of the box" for someone doing audio production
[14:35] <KiteHawk> yes which one is the most streamlined with least amount of extras/
[14:35] <holstein> KiteHawk: depends on the extras
[14:35] <holstein> ubuntustudio is more streamlined in some ways, but has more software installed
[14:35] <KiteHawk> audio centric ubuntu?
[14:36] <holstein> KiteHawk: not just audio, but yes
[14:36] <holstein> KiteHawk: you can make ubuntu into ubuntustudio
[14:36] <holstein> you can install ubuntu, and add what you want to it from the ubuntustudio packages
[14:36] <KiteHawk> thats what im looking for is a audio machine desktop install
[14:37] <holstein> gtg... good luck!
[14:37] <KiteHawk> k i was just trying to figure out if i needed anything out of studio or if its ready togo from ubuntu 12.04 w out studio
[14:37] <KiteHawk> Thanks so Much :holstein!!!! Big help
[19:41] <vaev> hello. I would like to talk about alsa-pulseaudio-jack connectivity, how it's done and what problems have been encountered in ubuntu studio, with someone who's been there working with it
[19:42] <vaev> not related to ubuntu studio support directly tho
[19:46] <vaev> I'm gathering experiences on a certain showstopper situation in loading jackd first with alsa-plugins -> pulseaudio present, crashing jackd when pa tries to create a sink as a jack client
[19:47] <vaev> if this has been encountered please let me know, I'll be hanging around :)
[19:56] <Kitehawk> Hello
[20:25] <ailo> vaev: Ubuntu Studio gets those packages directly from Debian, but we do put some effort in testing them, and reporting bugs, etc
[20:27] <ailo> vaev: What do you mean by alsa-plugins?
[20:35] <vaev> ailo: alsa-plugins (from upstream) is a set of modules enabling alsa to create virtual devices that connect to other audio backends
[20:35] <vaev> like pulseaudio or jack
[20:41] <ailo> vaev: You have a link to how that works?
[20:42] <vaev> what do you mean?
[20:43] <vaev> I don't have a link as such, but this is the upstream package that enables alsa aware applications to connect to pa or jack, for example, if so configured
[20:44] <ailo> vaev: What's the name of the package?
[20:46] <ailo> libasound2-plugins?
[20:46] <vaev> hmm? alsa-plugins. I don't know how it's named in apt world.
[20:46] <vaev> probably yeah
[20:46] <vaev> like I said this is not directly ubuntu studio support, I'm looking for info on how ubuntu studio has worked with alsa-pulseaudio-jack scheme
[20:47] <Len-nb> vaev, when set up right it works very well even on minimal hardware like this netbook
[20:47] <ailo> vaev: Could you give me an example of what apps you use?
[20:48] <Len-nb> I have tried as many as I could in the name of testing.
[20:48] <ailo> Len-nb: I think he's talking about a specific issue related to alsa plugins
[20:48] <Len-nb> alsa plugins?
[20:48] <vaev> ailo: we're not talking in the sound producing applications level yet, just the sound daemons
[20:48] <vaev> Len-nb: I'll paste what I wrote earlier:
[20:49] <vaev> 22:44 < vaev> I'm gathering experiences on a certain showstopper situation in loading jackd first with alsa-plugins -> pulseaudio present, crashing jackd when pa tries to create a sink as a jack client
[20:49] <vaev> and wondering if ubuntu studio had encountered this in developement
[20:50] <Len-nb> I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by alsa plugins... sometimes I can be dense or tired.
[20:50] <vaev> Len-nb: in apt world it might be this libasound2-plugins that ailo mentioned
[20:51] <vaev> it's called alsa-plugins package by alsa-project itself
[20:51] <Len-nb> Ah, I'll look.
[20:51] <ailo> vaev: You mean, starting jack doesn't work, if there is something connected to pulseaudio?
[20:51] <ailo> Len-nb: It's a part of libasound2-plugins
[20:52] <ailo> Len-nb: Give us the error message from jack, when it fails to staret
[20:52] <ailo> start*
[20:52] <Len-nb> I have not had jack fail to start.
[20:52] <vaev> ailo: I'm talking about jackd crashing, when there's a /usr/lib64/alsa-lib/libasound_module_ctl_pulse.so present, which is apparently loaded regardless of settings if pulseaudio is present. it starts pulseaudio which in turn is configured to start jackd, which segfaults when the first sink connects
[20:53] <ailo> Len-nb: Sorry :)
[20:54] <vaev> so it's sort of a cyclic, brain-melting thingie here :)
[20:54] <ailo> vaev: I'm not makings sense of that. Pulseaudio configured to start jackd?
[20:55] <vaev> yes. pulseaudio starts jackd is it's explicitly configured to load module-jack-sink or -source on startup
[20:55] <Len-nb> Ok,  libasound2-plugins is installed by default. pulse runs all the time. when jackdbus starts, pulse connects it self to jack
[20:55] <vaev> tries to start or to connect to an existing jack in this case, which segfaults
[20:55] <Len-nb> At least that is what happens here.
[20:55] <vaev> Len-nb: okay.. that's the default ubuntu studio scenario?
[20:56] <Len-nb> yes
[20:56] <vaev> that would mean that pa is suspended while jack is loaded and then resumed to connect to jack
[20:56] <Len-nb> pulse should not try to start jack
[20:56] <vaev> so a different scenario altogether
[20:57] <Len-nb> as far as I know pulse does not suspend at this point of jack starting
[20:57] <Len-nb> I have found pulse jack works best if pulse is configured to have the audio IF that jack uses turned off
[20:57] <ailo> Not when using jackdbus, and the pulseaudio-module-jack is presetn
[20:58] <vaev> hmm okay I see what you mean now
[20:59] <ailo> If using jackd, it won't be able to use the pa sinks
[20:59] <Len-nb> ailo, right. in fact is pulse is playing a file through the device jack uses, that stream is blocked when jack starts
[20:59] <ailo> So, it will just grab the card, if available
[20:59] <ailo> jackd won't start, if the card is not available
[21:00] <vaev> ailo: in this scenario we're not using pulseaudio's dbus autodetect to connect, but explicitly loading module-jack-sink to connect with specified parameteres
[21:00] <Len-nb> the only jack crash problem we have had is with trying to _stop_ jackdbus, but that is a problem even with pulse turned off
[21:00] <Len-nb> vaev, are you using a firewire device?
[21:00] <vaev> in any case, thanks for the answers. ubuntu studio is not using the approach I'm looking for, based on them
[21:02] <vaev> Len-nb: nope. this is quite directly related to how alsa's pa plugin initiates pa if it's not running which in turn (in this case) crashes jackd if it's running already, by explicit loading of the related modules
[21:04] <vaev> funnily enough if pulseaudio is started first, everything is peachy
[21:05] <vaev> anyway, thanks again for your time gents. I'll continue hunting for a solution, but unfortunately how you guys have implemented it is a different case altogether
[21:05] <Len-nb> sorry about that.
[21:05] <Len-nb> have fun
[21:05] <Len-nb> Oh and tell us how it goes.
[21:06] <vaev> will do. I'll hang around here :)
[21:08] <vaev> in case you're wondering why I'm trying to run such a strange setup..
[21:09] <vaev> I'm looking for approaches to make a manageable, generic and documented setup for gentoo that works in all-round (desktop and proaudio) usage
[21:10] <vaev> that isn't limited to my own use case, which is working already
[21:10] <Len-nb> vaev, Ya its hard. we are facing the same thing, just going about it different.
[21:14] <vaev> yeah hehe. and try to approach any one of the three, alsa pa or jack about something like this..any one of them will direct you to the other two :)
[21:14] <Len-nb> When I first tried pulse-jack bridging I was ready to throw out pulse all together.
[21:15] <Len-nb> but firewire has to have it for a lot of desktop stuff
[21:16] <vaev> it has worked rather well for me as long as pulse gets to call the shots (start first)..aside from having to patch pulse to allow multiple sinks to connect to jack. but that's another story altogether..
[23:35] <KiteHawk> well i just finished loading a new install of kubuntu as well as airtime and mixxx. It was a success with one small exception. No Sound!