[04:25] <len-dt> ailo, when you wake up... just one point. I purposely tried to keep applications that would be started often (like qjackctl) in the highest level of submenu possible.
[04:27] <len-dt> It would have made sense to put "audio utilities" in a sub menu etc.
[04:28] <len-dt> The mixers had to go just because there are so many no one person will use.
[04:29] <len-dt> The effects and sound modules I would expect a lot of people to load as part of their ardour or qtractor set up.
[04:30] <len-dt> I tried to leave the apps likely to be started from the menu in the main audio menu.
[04:31] <len-dt> This doesn't mean I am right though :-) It just occurred to me that I had not shared my reasoning behind which apps I submenued.
[04:32] <len-dt> ailo, question two... am I looking at your version of the main menu or a workflow menu?
[04:33] <len-dt> If it was a workflow menu, there is more room to work with... things could move up a level.
[04:36] <len-dt> ailo, three... I will experiment as if it was the workflow menu, so don't take that as a final that is where I would put it. I just don't want to muck with my main menu :)
[04:48] <len-dt> besides it gets everything else out of the way and the code is the same.
[09:53] <ailo> len-dt: I think you did a good job on the menu, as it is now. And yes, if we are to make it workflow based, there is room for expansion. Feel free to make your own edits in the wiki page
[09:54] <ailo> I added mastering to audio https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowMenu
[10:58] <ailo> len-dt: I think it's enough to put the subcategories in the wiki first, and then after deciding what is the proper format, do changes to the menu
[13:15] <len-dt> ailo, I want to mock up the menu for two reasons 1)right now I don't think I will like it and will want a normal menu too.
[13:16] <len-dt> also, I think having a sample to show how it looks may change how it gets done.
[13:17] <len-dt> sometimes ideas happen by looking at what something is for something better.
[13:17] <len-dt> I personally think there should be a main menu and a workflow menu.
[13:19] <len-dt> The main menu already has maintaining issues every time an app changes the name of their desktop file. (4 this cycle)
[13:20] <len-dt> Also, where does the app end up that the user installs?
[13:22] <ailo> len-dt: I see your point. The maintenance burden makes it problematic
[13:23] <len-dt> I would suggest a workflow menu that just deals with apps we ship.
[13:23] <ailo> len-dt: Perhaps a workflow menu could be made smarter when it comes to that. The package names don't change as much
[13:23] <ailo> len-dt: I don't like that either. If we only support a small percentage of apps, we might as well not have a workflow menu at all IMO
[13:24] <ailo> If it's not universal, it's not Ubuntu
[13:24] <len-dt> Ok, point taken
[13:25] <ailo> len-dt: Per release maintenance is of course unavoidable
[13:25] <ailo> len-dt: If we use a list of packages as base for the menu, the list would just need to be revised for each release.
[13:26] <len-dt> Yes, trying to  menu for everything a user may install requires installing it all to find out desktop names.
[13:32] <ailo> len-dt: Here's a script that will read a file with packages and see if they are installed or not http://paste.ubuntu.com/1121439/
[13:32] <ailo> Of course, each package is a bit different :P
[13:32] <ailo> So, each package may have a unique starter command
[13:33] <ailo> So, I don't know which is best after all..
[13:33] <len-dt> We don't need to do that. if the desktop file is present it will show if not it won't.
[13:33] <len-dt> so long as I know what the name of the desktop file is I can put it in.
[13:35] <len-dt> for example, we don't ship arpage, but if you decide to add it, it will show up in midi utilities because I already have it there.
[13:35] <ailo> len-dt: Then there's no going around the fact that we need to go through every concievable multimedia app, and decide if and where to put them in the menu
[13:35] <len-dt> I added it there because I happen to have it installed on my machine and so know what the name of the desktop file is.
[13:36] <len-dt> Yes.
[13:36] <len-dt> Is there a file list we can look at without installing the app?
[13:37] <len-dt> Is it easy to find the branch for all the apps ubuntu repos?
[13:39] <len-dt> And we should be careful about saying "mutimedia" app. We want to just worry about audio production and video production... we also though, need to look at all the graphics and publishing stuff.
[13:39]  * len-dt still sees photography as a sub of graphics
[13:40] <ailo> My understanding of multimedia incorporates all the medias, including graphics and publishing
[13:41] <len-dt> Why does Chromium act differently from every other application?
[13:42] <ailo> len-dt: Don't know about seeing installed files from console, except when installed: dpkg --listfiles | grep desktop
[13:42] <ailo> len-dt: I can install everything at a later point, if necessary
[13:43] <len-dt> I have my desktop set for focus follows mouse. Normally I can drop a terminal on top of another app and edit things in the terminal and just move my mouse on the under app to do things like scroll it. The terminal stays on top
[13:44] <len-dt> with chromium. as soon as my mouse gets over chomium it raises
[13:44] <ailo> len-dt: Been a bit slow developing the testing scripts. I'm doing a all-in-one approach, divided into sub scripts, where the script first installs all prerequisites, and the performs tests. So far, I have a jack test only. Counting xruns at different frame sizes
[13:44] <len-dt> YuCK!
[13:45]  * len-dt says the yuck is for chorium
[13:45] <ailo> That works by default for me
[13:45] <ailo> I mean, scrolling the window *not* in focus
[13:46] <len-dt> Yes for me too... every app but chorium.
[13:46] <ailo> Something I get annoyed with not having when on other OS's
[13:46] <len-dt> chromium
[13:46] <ailo> len-dt: I don't have a setting for focus follows mouse
[13:47] <len-dt> focus follows mouse used to be the Linux standard
[13:47] <len-dt> Now I have to go and set it on most new Linux ditros.
[13:47] <ailo> len-dt: So, why do you need it, if you still can scroll windows not in focus?
[13:48] <ailo> Typing doesn't work that way though
[13:49] <len-dt> Actually The window has to be in focus, just not on top.
[13:49] <ailo> len-dt: Without any changes, you can scroll the windows not in focus. But, you can't type in them. That's the default behaviour
[13:50] <len-dt> I'll check. I'll turn focus follow mouse off.
[13:51] <ailo> Or are things different on XFCE? I don't seem to remember there being a difference (on Gnome3 by default)
[13:52] <len-dt> There are only two settings, click to focus (stock) and focus follows mouse
[13:53] <len-dt> in both cases as soon as I do anything with the mouse in the chromium area, it raises above my terminal, even though I have the terminal set "stay on top"
[13:54] <ailo> Doesn't happen on Gnome3
[13:54] <len-dt> firefox is fine, and works as expected.
[13:55] <len-dt> I will have to try it on my Yf's vanilla box
[13:57] <ailo> len-dt: It doesn't happen when using gnome-terminal, but it does happen with xterm
[13:57] <ailo> So, it's not just chromium. It's also the terminal
[13:58] <ailo> len-dt: You can check by testing with nautilus. Works there too
[13:59] <ailo> len-dt: The difference in XFCE, compared to Gnome is that when you scroll a window not in focus, it becomes focused. This doesn't happen in gnome.
[13:59] <ailo> Even without focus on follow mouse
[14:00] <ailo> Or, more accurately, without focus follows mouse
[14:01] <ailo> The more apps I use in XFCE, I just feel like I want the gnome version instead. Soon enough, I've replaced everything except the panel
[14:06] <len-dt> If a window is "always on top" it should not matter.
[14:06] <len-dt> This is a bug. trying to find out where the bug is...
[14:07] <len-dt> Tried in vanilla, there is no focus follows mouse setting, but chromium doesn't grab focus when scrolling.
[14:08] <len-dt> I will have to play with it.
[14:09] <len-dt> nautilus is fine.
[14:10] <len-dt> my terminal will stay on top with "always on top" or not if I am typing in bottom window.
[14:11] <len-dt> Chromium if I move the mouse off the terminal raises already with no clicks or scrolling.
[14:11] <len-dt> And it covers the terminal even with the terminal being always on top.
[14:15] <len-dt> ailo, speaking of which there has been no ISO build since Jul 29, but no email telling why. Is there a build report URL?
[14:20] <len-dt> It may be seed changes that have not yet made it to meta packages.
[14:23] <len-dt> The changes have to be revued according to micahg. I have done the creation of a photo meta and a publishing meta. The photography was not done last cycle due to time limits.
[14:26] <ailo> len-dt: When you say vanilla, do you mean Unity?
[14:26] <len-dt> Yes.
[14:26] <ailo> len-dt: As said, on Gnome, windows don't change focus when using scroll
[14:27] <ailo> I'd assume most of Unity's behaviour is imported from Gnome3
[14:28] <len-dt> Ya, I have to test in quantal in xfce4.10 before I file a bug report. A lot of things seem to be fixed there.
[14:28] <len-dt> I don't think there will be a fix in xfce 4.8 at this point.
[14:29] <len-dt> I think I may replace my default browser...
[14:29] <ailo> I like supporting Firefox. Some day, I'll set up my own weave sync server, when I get around to it
[14:30] <ailo> Trying to use google services a bit less, as it feels weird relying on them too much
[14:31] <ailo> They say Opera users are the smartest by average, but I've never really got into it
[14:32] <micahg> len-dt: sorry. let me get that meta uploaded
[14:32]  * micahg guesses it'll have to be cleaned later
[14:34] <len-dt> No problem. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't another problem
[14:36] <len-dt> The browser that shows up as "web" on my menu, flashes at me every time I enter the window. Something else to test in 12.10
[14:37] <len-dt> ailo, the reason I don't have firefox set up as default right now... is to keep other people in the house from using it  :P
[14:38] <len-dt> I have a set of sites I keep in tabs all the time. I guess I should set up a bookmark for this set of sites.
[14:38] <micahg> len-dt: separate user accounts for separate people?
[14:39] <len-dt> Quite often I am in the middle of things and walk away, I come back to find someone watching utube on the machine.
[14:39] <len-dt> There are separate accounts though.
[14:40] <len-dt> I could lock my session, but that breeds distrust
[14:41] <len-dt> Studio is not set up to allow more than one login at a time right now (correctly IMO)
[14:46] <len-dt> Anyway, it is always good to find a bug.
[14:47] <len-dt> it will be better if I find it is fixed already
[14:50] <micahg> len-dt: there are also separate firefox profiles (firefox -P)
[14:52] <ailo> len-dt: On nice feature in firefox bookmarks is that you can open an entire folder in tabs
[14:52] <ailo> One*
[14:52] <len-dt> Ya, I just haven't done it yet.
[14:53] <ailo> Ever since they introduced sync, I started using bookmarks a bit seriously too
[14:53] <ailo> Becoming a library more or less
[14:57] <len-dt> I have a feature request for mudita24... allow linking any two channels in the mixer.
[14:58] <len-dt> I have some feature requests for pavucontrol (or maybe pulse itself) too.
[14:59] <len-dt> On the config tab, each device should have a button/switch that allows/prevents pulse from changing setting on the device.
[15:01] <len-dt> Default would be allows as it is now.  Those of us with more configurable devices like ice1712s (or even just want to set things in one known place for jack use) can turn this off.
[15:02] <len-dt> Pulse would only do software volume control for that device.
[15:07] <len-dt> The other feature I would like to see in pulse/pavucontrol is that when pulse detects jackdbus asking for a device, pulse automatically changes the output from any apps connected to that device to jack bridge. In effect jack bridge would become that device as far as pulse is concerned.
[15:08] <len-dt> the jack bridge could even remained labelled as that device for all pulse related things.
[15:23] <ailo> len-dt: As far as the bridge is concerned, I think you could try messing it with yourself. Do: apt-get source pulseaudio-module-jack, and see what it does
[15:23] <ailo> Also, look at pulseaudio configuration, perhaps
[15:23] <ailo> len-dt: For other thing, maybe report wishlist bugs at the appropriate place, upstream if necessacry
[15:26] <len-dt> I am writing an email right now. I realize I could maybe configure thing for me. But I think these are some things that may have a wiser appeal
[15:26] <len-dt> s/wiser/wider
[15:27] <ailo> len-dt: Just that maybe not much will happen if you just adress the US mail list
[15:27] <len-dt> ailo, do you have any ideas for Mish? other channel
[15:27] <len-dt> the US list may give me a "hey thats a dumb idea"
[15:28] <ailo> David Henningson is the man behind pulseaudio-jack-module, but it may be easier to do the changes yourself, than ask him to do it
[15:28] <ailo> len-dt: Maybe talk to the person who develops mudita24 about features?
[15:29] <len-dt> David is who I am writing too. I have less hope for an ear for mudita :-)
[15:50] <ailo> hmm, I think I prefer the opera mail client over both evolution and firebird
[15:52] <ailo> Fast, simple and has the best function for marking mail read. Mark thread read, and move to next undread
[16:00] <micahg> hrm, I seem to be having issues getting the new seeds to produce files :(, will have to look into this more later
[16:01] <len-dt> micahg, please let me know if my way of doing it cause it.
[16:19] <len-dt> ailo-opera, I don't think we'll be adding opera to studi ;-)
[16:21] <ailo-opera> len-dt: No. That would be kind of difficult
[16:22] <ailo-opera> I'm starting to like it a bit though. 
[16:22] <len-dt> I'm up and down about it.. as the features change
[16:35] <len-dt> ailo, ailo-opera did you expect the workflow menu to be in the order you have them?
[16:35] <len-dt> or is there an order you would prefer?
[16:36] <scott-work> len-dt: are you working on a demo pictures?
[16:36] <scott-work> picture
[16:36] <len-dt> Ya.
[16:36] <ailo-opera> len-dt: That's just a sketch. I'd like for us to first fill out possible submenus, then decide which to keep, and in which order
[16:37] <len-dt> scott-work, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowMenu
[16:37] <ailo-opera> So far, there are only submenus for audio. We need to add for the other workflows as well
[16:37] <len-dt> Ok, I will leave them alpha
[16:40] <Mish> Video Icon
[16:40] <Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
[16:40] <Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
[16:41] <Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/videoproductionfilmstri.png/
[16:41] <ailo-opera> The applications under the categories are just examples too. To do the submenus thoroughly, we need to go through all possible workflows and link them with any application that might fit that possible workflow to get a good picture of where to put all the different applications, as well as getting a picture of which workflows are needed, and which are not.
[16:42] <ailo-opera> Mish: Looks nice
[16:43] <ailo-opera> So, as far as submenus go, I don't think there's any shortcut around it
[16:43] <ailo-opera> Need to go through every application and possible workflow
[16:55] <ailo-opera> The submenus for audio aren't clear workflow tasks. It would be impossible to do. Can't have qjackctl in every menu, etc
[16:57] <ailo-opera> So, it's still more towards application definition
[16:57] <ailo-opera> Especially what utilities are concerned, like mixers
[17:02] <Mish> Sorry got disconnected... how is the icon?
[17:19] <ailo-opera> len-dt: I don't think it's possible to create a menu based entirely on workflows. In fact, it would seem only a few submenus become actual workflow based. 
[17:19] <ailo-opera> len-dt: But, we can always try to go that direction as far as we can, to see how it goes
[17:20] <scott-work> ailo-opera: i agree that only a smaller subset of menus can be work flow based
[17:23] <len-dt> Mish the icon looks great
[17:24] <len-dt> scott-work, ailo-opera in the mock-up only apps we ship or I have installed since will show up
[17:26] <len-dt> Mish, I like the rounded style and the fadeout as well. It makes it unique
[17:35] <Mish> great. I'll send you the SVG then
[17:37] <len-dt> Mish, ok
[17:39] <len-dt> ailo-opera, I see you have Plugin Hosts and instruments, I am not so sure this makes sense from a workflow view (or any)
[17:39] <Mish> Do you people have an icon-filenaming convention?
[17:40] <len-dt> Mish, ubuntustudio-somename.ext
[17:40] <Mish> ok
[17:40] <len-dt> It is ok for somname to be a some-name
[17:41] <len-dt> s/somname/somename
[17:41] <Mish> alright
[17:43] <len-dt> ailo, it makes more sense to me to have instruments and effects even if the plugin host supports both and so ends up in both areas.
[17:44] <len-dt> That way they are grouped by the functionality they give from an audio POV
[17:45] <len-dt> It would seem to me that the only time these catagories would/should be used is in a live situation. and so could be in a /live catagory
[17:48] <len-dt> Any other time the plugins would be loaded into another app anyway. At least I think this is what we want the beginner to learn as the normal way of doing things.
[17:48] <ailo> len-dt: In some way I like the idea of having more categories than needed at first, and then start slimming it down
[17:49] <len-dt> So would you add effects?
[17:49] <ailo> len-dt: I don't feel there's a need to be too particular, until all applications and workflows have been inspected
[17:49] <ailo> len-dt: I don't have the starters in front of me right now. Do whatever you feel is right, and please edit the wiki page whenever you feel like it
[17:50] <ailo> Adding is preferable to removing, of course
[17:50] <len-dt> Ok I leave it as effects and sound gen. for now then as the directory files are already made.
[17:51] <len-dt> I will add a plugin hosts to that.
[17:56] <Mish> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UbuntuStudio-Icons-Video_Production.svg
[17:58] <len-dt> Mish I see it... sort of midori doesn't seem to display it...
[17:58] <Mish> also does the sound generator menu exist anymore?
[17:58] <Mish> I think wikimedia takes some time to render bitmaps and then display it from the SVG.
[17:58] <len-dt> Yes. I may change its name to instruments, but the menu will be there.
[17:58] <Mish> You can directly download the SVG though via the link
[17:59] <Mish> ok
[18:08] <len-dt> Mish the video icon I can download but While I can see it in inkscape, if I export it to png it ends up blank.
[18:08] <len-dt> I will try convert
[18:09] <Mish> what is your image viewer?
[18:09] <Mish> try using shotwell
[18:09] <Mish> ristretto doesn't open those PNGs for me
[18:14] <micahg> discussion about lowlatency kernel maintenance in precise in #ubuntu-devel
[18:26] <Mish> Do you people use something like Wuala?
[18:27] <len-dt> Mish, I don't know what that is.
[18:27] <Mish> it's like Dropbox
[18:28] <Mish> cloud storage
[18:28] <micahg> There's Ubuntu One for those who want it
[18:28] <len-dt> I have not, personally.
[18:28] <Mish> No I mean do the developers use cloud storage for easier file sharing?
[18:29] <len-dt> In the (somewhat limmited) work I have done no. I am not saying it shouldn't be.
[18:30] <Mish> ok ubuntu one looks good
[18:31] <scott-work_> and google, skydrive, and another one that i forget
[18:31] <scott-work_> i think i have over 50 gigs of mostly free (and quite a bit of google paid) storage
[18:31] <Mish> that too
[18:32] <scott-work_> oh, box.com too
[18:35] <Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/soundgen.png/
[18:35] <Mish> http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/soundgen24x24.png/
[18:36] <Mish> Sound generator fine?
[18:36] <Mish> Or any other ideas if you don't like it?
[18:45] <frewsxcv> imageshack still exists?
[18:46] <frewsxcv> news to me
[18:46] <Mish> lol it does
[18:47] <Mish> why? isn't it supposed to?
[18:47] <frewsxcv> I use to use Wuala, until I got tired of loading the JVM everytime i wanted access to my files
[18:47] <frewsxcv> Well there's a lot better sites for image uploading now
[18:47] <frewsxcv> imgur being the prime example
[18:48] <Mish> opened it right now... too bad it won't work without javascript
[18:48] <Mish> what does imgur offer? I mean how is it better?
[18:48] <frewsxcv> it works without javascript
[18:49] <frewsxcv> errr maybe not
[18:49] <frewsxcv> less ads
[18:49] <Mish> ha ha yeah
[18:49] <frewsxcv> easy direct access to just the image
[18:49] <Mish> ok........
[18:50] <frewsxcv> imageshack is down a lot of the time
[18:50] <frewsxcv> whatever you want
[18:50]  * frewsxcv goes back to work
[18:51] <Mish> btw you have any ideas for the sound generator icon? Have a look at the upload
[18:51] <Mish> lol
[18:51] <Mish> alright then
[18:52] <len-dt> Mish, I think it will work fine. ailo ?
[19:20] <len-dt> Mish, I was able to convert the svg to png. Inkscape does it, convert doesn't... At least not using the command line I got in the email :-)
[19:22] <len-dt> Mish, One thing to note is that icons should be square I think. I'll have to try using it.
[19:23] <micahg> len-dt: rsvg-convert?
[19:24] <len-dt> micahg, just convert. I didn't know about another
[19:24] <len-dt> convert foo.svg -background none -resize 64x64 foo.png
[19:25] <len-dt> is the command line I was given
[19:26] <micahg> ah, the imagemagick version as opposed to the librsvg version
[19:26] <micahg> both should work fine
[19:26] <len-dt> micahg, Studio doesn't seem to ship with  rsvg-convert
[19:27] <micahg> no, it's used in some desktop apps
[19:27] <len-dt> It may be because the image was not square to begin with... but even still Gimp doesn't seem to give more than a blank background of the right size.
[19:28] <len-dt> micahg, when installing a package where svg icons are converted to pngs what command does that?
[19:28] <len-dt> Talking ISO install.
[19:29] <micahg> either, depending on what the build dependencies are
[19:29] <micahg> they're converted at build time, not install time
[19:30] <len-dt> Ya, that would be when the Package is installed to the image or is it when the package is built?
[19:34] <len-dt> Mish, the Video icon I downloaded. It seems the image is outside the export area.
[19:34] <len-dt> There is a box and when I move an element into it it shows in the icon boxes in the icon display.
[19:35] <len-dt> Oops missed him.
[19:43] <len-dt> micahg, the svg image I was trying to convert is not right.
[19:43] <len-dt> micahg, Thank you for whatever made the ISO build today.
[19:45] <micahg> len-dt: I did nothing, still missing the meta :)
[19:48] <len-dt> micahg, both? (photography and publishing?)
[19:48] <micahg> yes
[19:49] <len-dt> Downloading and testing (there is another issue that may be fixed.
[19:50] <len-dt> That would be why the ISO is actually smaller rather than bigger.
[19:50] <micahg> new rebased lowlatency coming soon
[19:51] <len-dt> Sounds wonderful ... rebased means? (does this mean for 12.04?)
[19:51] <micahg> no, for quantal (rebased on the latest kernel in the archive), 12.04 will have a discussion with apw and scott-work_ offline
[19:52] <len-dt> Ok
[19:58] <scott-work_> micahg: has apw been in contact with you? we talked a bit in PM
[19:58] <scott-work_> he said he would send an email to me in the next few days regarding the commitment
[19:58] <micahg> scott-work_: see scrollback in #ubuntu-devel from about 2 hours ago
[19:58] <scott-work_> looking
[20:12] <scott-work_> i see
[20:42] <len-dt> ailo, scott-work_  The idea of moving all subs menus up one level in a workflow menu would not work. If you don't know what I mean, that's ok too  :)
[20:54] <scott-work_> len-dt: is that what ailo was suggesting?
[20:54] <len-dt> scott-work_, No it was an idea I had to keep the user from having to go through so many levels.
[20:55] <len-dt> It can be done, but on a netbook the menu would go off the screen or wrap, either would be harder to use
[20:56] <len-dt> scott-work_, Our problem with the theme has been fixed Bug 1016713
[20:57] <len-dt> I just tested it.
[20:58] <len-dt> our bug #1018080
[21:00] <ailo> len-dt: The idea for the menu is like it is now, but expanded with more submenus
[21:01] <ailo> len-dt: Is that not what you have been working on?
[21:01] <len-dt> What I have been working on would fit either in the current menus or as a separate menu just for workflows.
[21:02] <len-dt>  I am testing the second way because it will mess up my system less.
[21:02] <ailo> len-dt: What do mean by moving up submenus?
[21:03] <len-dt> ailo, it doesn't matter the menus would end up being too big.
[21:03] <len-dt> But...
[21:03] <len-dt> I meant that instead of having an audio menu, just have all the audio workflows in the main menu.
[21:04] <len-dt> That would not work for sure in the main menu and even in a workflow menu would not work.
[21:06] <ailo> len-dt: No, that would be too big. I think having the same system as now is ok. The main categories: audio, graphics, video, photography and publishing. And let all of them have submenus
[21:06] <ailo> That is the way it's laid out in the wiki
[21:07] <ailo> I think anywhere between 5-10 submenus is tolerable. But, it's hard to know, before trying
[21:08] <ailo> Maybe a bit over 10, but then it starts to look really crowded
[21:08] <ailo> Might help having icons with the menu, to make them stand out visually
[21:09] <ailo> I mean, for the submenus
[21:09] <len-dt> I guess so... personally, I don't like it. I would prefer to have a main menu without too much workflow stuff and a workflow menu to guide people who don't know what app to use for what. The workflow menu idea makes it hard for someone who wants to use a different workflow
[21:09] <len-dt> They have to think in two or more workflows to find their tools.
[21:10] <ailo> len-dt: What I mean is, that the workflow menu, no matter if it is in the main menu or not, would benfit the most from having that structure
[21:10] <ailo> If you mix workflow submenus, how can you tell if they are for audio or video?
[21:11] <ailo> Unless you name them audio-*, audio-*, video-*, video-*, etc
[21:11] <len-dt> using separators
[21:12] <ailo> len-dt: When creating category lists, I find that 5-10 is a good number in a list. It has to do with the human eye. We can see 5-7 items at once. 20 is too much
[21:12] <len-dt> the way you laid things out is not bad because there is still a good app desc to menu rate.
[21:12] <ailo> len-dt: But, in this case, we might have 5 menus that are actual workflows, and the rest is just utility
[21:12] <len-dt> Yes and the netbook screen runs out of room at 16
[21:13] <ailo> len-dt: I did mold the workflow menu in the wiki to be used as the main menu. If you make a pure workflow menu, you can leave out a lot of those submenus
[21:14] <ailo> len-dt: You could separate the workflow stuff from the utility stuff alltogether
[21:14] <ailo> len-dt: Let's do another version of that list
[21:14] <len-dt> Just checked netbook limit is 24.
[21:15] <ailo> len-dt: Doesn't the menu become scrollable?
[21:15] <len-dt> Ya it would work. I could find everything.
[21:15] <len-dt> scrollable means more mouse movement to find something.
[21:16] <len-dt> Using a touch pad is worse.
[21:17] <ailo> Well, we aren't doing this just for the netbook
[21:17] <ailo> And those aren't easy to handle anyway
[21:18] <ailo> Anyway, I'm creating a new menu specifically for the workflow panel
[21:19] <len-dt> It'll take me a bit to get pics of this one put together :-)
[21:21] <ailo> len-dt: Would be best to have two different menus, or just one. If two, one for utilities, such as jack controllers and different mixers. The other for pure workflows
[21:22] <ailo> If one, just for workflows. Goes without saying
[21:23] <len-dt> Do you mean two extra menus? or main and workflow?
[21:25] <len-dt> scott-work_, greybird now has a blue window bar and blue shadowing on mouse over menu selections
[21:28] <ailo> len-dt: More like, utilities and workflow
[21:29] <ailo> Or Control and Workflow
[21:30] <len-dt> So Control and Workflow and no main?
[21:31] <ailo> len-dt: Since this is for the specifically for the workflow panel, and not for the main menu
[21:32] <len-dt> So two menus off of panel1 (panel0 being the top one)
[21:33] <len-dt> Ok, or the Workflow  menu might have one entry for utilities along with the five workflow main topics.
[21:36] <len-dt> ailo, the problem I mentioned with chromium earlier has gone away in quantal.
[21:37] <len-dt> Before anyone asks ... no I am not suggesting we ship it :-)
[21:47] <ailo> len-dt: Yeah, I think there's enough to worry about.
[21:48] <ailo> len-dt: So, again, not much different. Trying to filter out stuff from workflows that don't need to be there https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/WorkflowPanel
[21:49] <ailo> len-dt: That's meant to be documentation for the panel as a whole, but I only put in this broken menu example
[21:51] <ailo> len-dt: if the panel were just to be used for menus, then of course, you can put each workflow menu in its own spot on the panel
[21:51] <ailo> So, then it would be, for audio: AUDIO -> EDITING -> Audacity, as an example
[21:52] <ailo> But, if using a mother menu for all workflows, it would go: WORKFLOWS -> AUDIO -> EDITING -> Audacity
[21:53] <ailo> len-dt: I was trying to be a bit creative with the utility menu, by placing the jack controllers directly under the UTILITIES -> AUDIO -> qjackctl
[21:53] <ailo> And mixers, since not used as much, in a menu deeper: UTILITIES -> AUDIO -> MIXERS -> mudita24
[21:54] <ailo> UTILITIES could be named something else. Something closer to Settings, or Control
[21:56] <scott-work_> i like the idea of a either a menu item (level with Audio, Graphics, etc) for workflows or even a separate panel icon for just workflow menu (one that a user can remove easily without destroying the main menu)
[21:57] <scott-work_> therefore, the main menu would have Audio, Video, Internet, Office, Settings, Graphics, Video, WORKFLOWS, etc
[21:57] <scott-work_> or
[21:57] <scott-work_> a separate menu icon for just work flows
[21:57] <scott-work_> just ideas
[21:58] <ailo> scott-work_: This is for a separate menu, so could be a separate menu in the panel
[21:58] <ailo> In any panel
[21:58] <scott-work_> aye
[21:58] <scott-work_> .i have to go pick up kids
[22:34] <len-dt> ailo, have you seen this idea? http://klang.eudyptula.org/
[22:39] <len-dt> And this : http://ardour.org/pd_on_klang
[22:41] <ailo> len-dt: Yea, I saw it in the mail
[22:41] <ailo> I don't care about the critisism. For whatever reason it is done, the guy trying will at least learn something
[22:42] <ailo> And with any luck, the project actually turns out to be great
[22:44] <len-dt> Time will tell.