[02:36] <BiosElement> I wonder if it's a bad thing that Fedora seems really attractive to me right now...
[02:40] <Unit193> ...Just after I read about it having mate.
[02:40] <BiosElement> What about what? >.>
[02:40] <BiosElement> Oh yeah, the gnome2 thingy?
[02:40] <Unit193> Yep.
[02:41] <BiosElement> I'm a KDE guy myself and was impressed at how responsive it was even on a vbox
[02:42] <Unit193> I'm not a fan of MATE/Gnome2/Unity/Gnome3, but not exactly tried them either. :P
[02:43] <BiosElement> Fedora seems to have a somewhat more open community as well. :/
[02:43] <BiosElement> Not to say Ubuntu's closed, but it's better then say Debian. Communities without an enforced Conduct I tend to avoid >.>
[03:15] <canthus13> Meh. the enforced CoC is becoming.. well.. remember what Linus said about monkeys and BSD?
[03:16] <BiosElement> canthus13: And without it "You noob, go back to windows!" is the attitude of the day. Which doesn't help anyone. >.> At least there's a recourse and some social pressure to not be an ass to everyone else.
[03:16] <canthus13> True.
[03:17] <BiosElement> Not saying it's perfect, but I personally don't like to see people being ridiculed for not knowing everything about the system
[03:17] <canthus13> I'm not saying we don't need it.. I'm just saying some people wield it like a weapon.  At least, they did... I've pretty much pulled out of any ubuntu-related things, aside from here and the forbidden ##club-ubuntu, whose very mention will have you banned from certain other official channels. :/
[03:18] <BiosElement> I don't know what's up with that, and also avoid most major channels, but it's good to know someone can't get away with being a total ass on the forums or in #ubuntu
[03:19] <canthus13> O
[03:19] <canthus13> I'm also referring to the changes in the CoC that came up a while back, which basically said 'agree or get out of my clubhouse!'
[03:20] <BiosElement> Did they ever sort that mess out?
[03:27] <BiosElement> Doesn't appear they merged it. If they ever choose to do so I'd have to step down from any so-called 'leadership' work I do related to it.
[03:32] <canthus13> Ok.
[03:32]  * canthus13 shrugs.
[03:33] <canthus13> I dunno. If I find a community that's less anal about itself, I'll likely jump ship.
[03:33] <BiosElement> If fedora didn't use yum/rpm I'd already be there. :/
[03:34] <BiosElement> Debian I'd love to support but the attitudes I've seen running around there make me less then thrilled about needing a hand with 'anything' that breaks. >.>
[03:34] <canthus13> If fedora wasn't redhat based I'd be there already.
[03:36] <BiosElement> Nice thing about redhat though is their focus is more on enterprise servers then user desktops.
[03:37]  * canthus13 nods.
[03:37]  * canthus13 doesn't need an enterprise server. Debian works fine for his servers.
[03:37] <BiosElement> For my servers I use whatever I'm running on my desktop at the time. :/ Lazy but it makes testing easier
[03:38] <canthus13> Heh.
[03:38] <canthus13> I use Mint on desktops and Debian on servers.
[03:39] <BiosElement> I won't touch mint if you paid me. I'm still of the opinion that project steals from whoever they can. The mozilla ad-theft nonsense never did get admitted by them.
[03:40]  * canthus13 shrugs. It works, and works well. they've prolly got one of the better implementations of gnome 3 that I've seen.
[03:40] <BiosElement> But then I'm told I hold grudges so that's more me then anything. >.>
[03:40]  * canthus13 holds grudges... He still hates the Tigers for beating San Diego.
[03:41] <canthus13> ....in 1984.
[03:41] <BiosElement> hah, For what it's worth, I saw a few benchmarks that gave Fedora about 10-20% speed boost compared to Ubuntu.
[03:41] <canthus13> so it can annoy me faster than ubuntu. :P
[03:41] <BiosElement> Exactly!
[03:42] <canthus13> The few times I've tried Fedora it's been a disappointing mess.
[03:42] <BiosElement> I was just at PyOhio this weekend and it looked to be the distro of choice around there anyway heh.
[03:42]  * canthus13 nods.
[03:43] <BiosElement> I 'can' say I didn't catch a sniff of Unity. :P
[03:43] <canthus13> heh. I still don't like unity.
[03:43] <BiosElement> I tried it on my laptop
[03:43] <BiosElement> It lasted 24 hours.
[03:43] <BiosElement> And this was a full install mind you, not a live disk.
[03:46] <canthus13> heh.
[03:46] <canthus13> I threw it on a VM... it's like... someone took Gnome3 and broke it.
[03:47] <BiosElement> To be fair, I tried Gnome 3 for 5 minutes and it seemed the same level of stupidity
[03:52] <canthus13> It is if you use it as-is... Mint's version is nice, if you get rid of the bottom panel and that stupid menu system.
[03:52] <BiosElement> Sane defaults would be nice
[03:52]  * canthus13 nods.
[03:53] <canthus13> I still prefer gnome 2, mind you.
[03:54] <BiosElement> It wasn't bad. I fell in love with KDE though.
[04:04] <thafreak> Is it just me, or is about 98% of all poorly configured mail servers running exchange?
[04:05] <thafreak> sure, let me make my email server stupider, and let in more spam, just so I can accept email from brain dead M$ exchange servers
[04:05] <thafreak> fuck email
[04:06] <canthus13> Fuck MacMail. :/
[04:06] <thafreak> nah, fuck all of email...
[04:06] <Unit193> BiosElement: I do agree with you there on mint, not touching it other than maybe poking at their Xfce spin, maybe.
[04:07] <thafreak> if your business relies on email to survive, spend the money and hire a non-moron...or outsource it so it's some one elses problem
[04:07] <BiosElement> thafreak: Agreed
[04:07] <thafreak> wait, why you guys anti-mint?
[04:07]  * canthus13 isn't.
[04:07] <BiosElement> Unit193: I've poked their KDE spin, it's just a restyled Kubuntu really
[04:08] <BiosElement> thafreak: I am because I'm of the opinion they steal from other projects, add little of their own, ignore licenses and then pretend it never happened. But that's me >.>
[04:08] <thafreak> so you think they're microsoft? :)
[04:08] <BiosElement> thafreak: No, They make microsoft look good at times.
[04:08] <thafreak> ouch
[04:12] <BiosElement> My bad BTW
[04:12] <BiosElement> As of July, They're still hijacking browser search results.
[10:22] <dzho> BiosElement: you left out my top beef about mint
[10:22] <BiosElement> Oh?
[10:22] <dzho> everyone treats them like a distro
[10:23] <BiosElement> haha, they claim to be one last I looked.
[10:23] <dzho> really?
[10:23] <dzho> that is pretty shitty, given they point back to others' repos for most stuff
[10:24] <BiosElement> At least Ubuntu is mostly self-hosted >.>
[10:24] <dzho> if they ran their own buildd's for everything that'd be different
[10:24] <dzho> yeah
[10:43] <BiosElement> If I have to ask someone what details they're using with FTP because it keeps telling them to try agian, I'm gonna start writing a browser upload system >.>
[10:46] <BiosElement> As amazing as it sounds, "It's broke" is painfully useless to me.
[13:35] <dzho> ftp as in port 23?
[13:35] <dzho> like, real old-school ftp, instead of sftp?
[13:35]  * dzho is uncertain as to what use case for ftp can't be covered by http and sftp/ssh these days.
[13:43] <thafreak> 21
[13:43] <jandrusk> Telnet uses TCP 23, FTP uses 21 and 20.
[13:43] <thafreak> here's a use...ftp you can setup non-system, i.e. virtual ftp only users
[13:43] <paultag> o/
[13:44] <thafreak> sftp...i haven't found a decent way to do that yet
[13:44] <thafreak> plus lots of software supports ftp...
[13:44] <thafreak> it's plain and simple
[13:45] <thafreak> but if anyone knows how to create virtual sftp users who don't clutter up my password file and can't get a shell or do anything else ssh is capable of, I'm listening
[13:46] <thafreak> i know how to do the last part...i found how to force users to only get the sftp binary and never a shell, and to chroot them...
[13:47] <jandrusk> You could use vsftpd and leverage LDAP authentication.
[13:48] <thafreak> i use pure-ftp...i meant how to do that with sftp
[13:50] <jandrusk> http://www.cyberciti.biz/tips/howto-configure-sshd-to-use-openldap-server.html
[13:51] <thafreak> yeah, but that's a hassle too :) ldap is nice for places with lots of machines and all
[13:51] <paultag> ldap is great.
[13:51] <thafreak> but with pure-ftp, I can have virtual users in a simple text file...a mysql database, etc
[13:51] <thafreak> ldap is alright...it's overkill most of the time :)
[13:52] <paultag> db.debian.org, bah
[13:52] <paultag> brah*
[13:52] <paultag> it makes my life so much easier
[13:52] <paultag> not only people, but also domain records, machines, etc
[13:52] <paultag> it's great
[13:53] <thafreak> i know dude...I was setting up ldap servers when you were potty training :)
[13:53] <paultag> :|
[13:54] <thafreak> and for the record I *hate* ftp...
[13:54] <thafreak> well I don't have a problem with it...but I *hate* running it as a service for others
[13:54] <thafreak> no one knows how to use it
[13:54] <thafreak> NO ONE
[13:54] <thafreak> you just get emails all day everyday..."ftp server doesn't work"
[13:55] <thafreak> no it does...you're just an idiot
[13:55] <thafreak> you can't use internet explorer is all, moron
[13:55] <paultag> you can use chrome
[13:55] <paultag> or firefox
[13:55] <paultag> or opera
[13:55] <paultag> or … well … most other browsers
[13:55] <thafreak> most don't let you upload...
[13:56] <thafreak> and they ALL try to log you in anonymously...and I *always* setup my ftp servers to deny anonymous
[13:56] <thafreak> which is where the problems start
[13:56] <thafreak> they stick your ftp server info in their browser, which tries anonymous login
[13:56] <thafreak> and boom, they get an error
[13:57] <thafreak> then the emails start...you'r ftp server doesn't work
[13:58] <thafreak> I wish I had all the days back that I wasted tracking down non-existent ftp problems
[13:58] <thafreak> so...anyway...sorry to hijack the convo in here
[13:59] <thafreak> for the record, I've been trying to push people to use either ajaxplorer or now owncloud
[14:00] <thafreak> browser uploads for the masses...
[14:00] <thafreak> alright, I'm done bitching...I'll leave now so normal conversation can continue
[16:13] <dzho> thafreak: ah, 21
[16:13] <dzho> sign error ;-)
[16:14] <dzho> I challenge the idea that ftp is "plain and simple" given that it has this weird two-port, active/passive complexity going on
[16:14] <dzho> http is plain and simple
[16:15] <dzho> and since you're going to want to chroot your ftp server anyway, why not just chroot your ssh server and put users in the chroot's /etc/passwd?