[10:56] <Mamarok> there seems to be a broken redirect in tis wiki page: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Testing/Kubuntu/Current
[10:56] <Mamarok> it shows the templates list
[14:47] <kubotu> ::runtime-bugs:: [1035883] drkonqi crashed with SIGABRT in qt_message_output() @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1035883 (by R3vo tester)
[14:47] <allee> shadeslayer:  digikam 2.8 is in debian experimental.  Care to sync?
[14:48] <shadeslayer> allee: I can't sync, but please file a request and attach build logs and a reason why the delta can be dropped
[14:48] <shadeslayer> use requestsync
[14:50] <allee> shadeslayer: ah, right digikam has a ubuntuX revision now.  I'll check the deibian ubuntu diff
[14:51] <shadeslayer> cool :)
[15:50] <kubotu> ::runtime-bugs:: [1035883] drkonqi crashed with SIGABRT in qt_message_output() @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1035883 (by R3vo tester)
[16:45] <allee> shadeslayer: the digikam pkgs are now quite different in debian and ubuntu.  No easy way to merge.   
[16:45] <shadeslayer> will have a look tomorrow :)
[16:46] <shadeslayer> thanks for notifying me about the new package ...
[16:48] <allee> shadeslayer: cool! Please remove debian/xpm.d  and close bug 658047 . debian menu and associated xpm files is not really used and 99% of the apps have no .xpm files
[16:49] <shadeslayer> alrighty
[16:49] <allee> ^^ takes about updating.xpm bin IMHO they  should be removed
[16:49] <allee> s/bin/but/
[16:49] <kubotu> allee meant: "^^ takes about updating.xpm but IMHO they  should be removed"
[16:50] <allee> shadeslayer: thx a lot!
[16:50] <shadeslayer> no problemo
[19:32] <afiestas_> mmm
[19:32] <afiestas_> installed quantal, upgraded, no longer booting
[19:32] <afiestas_> X message error saying that startkde failed
[20:02] <Riddell> afiestas_: are kdm and lightdm both installed?
[20:02] <afiestas_> Riddell: just reinstalled 12.04, need something usable for tomorrow (traveling)
[20:02] <afiestas_> butno, it wasn't
[20:02] <afiestas_> because I tried to restart kdm and /etc/ini.d/kdm didn't existed
[20:03] <Riddell> "Mackenzie Morgan (maco.m) renewed their own membership in the Kubuntu Members" yay maco still loves us
[20:54] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: depends on whether or not you have fglrx installed and have X from proposed as well
[20:54] <afiestas_> shadeslayer: ?
[20:54] <afiestas_> my laptop ahs only an intel gpu
[20:54] <shadeslayer> ah ok
[20:54] <shadeslayer> then ignore me :P
[20:54] <afiestas_> I thoguht we were doing the "always usable" thing like ubuntu, aren't we?
[20:55] <afiestas_> asking for upgrading when I return from my trip or not
[20:55]  * shadeslayer is dealing with ABI incompatibility all the way down to the kernel
[20:55] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: ahhhh
[20:55] <shadeslayer> I know
[20:55] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: make sure kubuntu-desktop is installed
[20:55] <shadeslayer> and kde-workspace-bin
[20:56] <afiestas_> shadeslayer: did kubuntu-desktop I think, everything was ok
[20:56] <afiestas_> didn't checked if startkde existed though :/
[20:56] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: kde-workspace-bin then, those 2 get uninstalled on a upgrade
[20:56] <afiestas_> aha :s
[20:57] <shadeslayer> yeah, no idea why that happens
[20:59] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: did that work?
[20:59] <afiestas_> reinstalled kubuntu 12.04
[20:59] <shadeslayer> whut
[21:00] <shadeslayer> .... why?
[21:00] <afiestas_> tomorrow going to a trip, need an usable thing
[21:00] <shadeslayer> yeah well, you should have just installed kde-workspace-bin :P
[21:00] <afiestas_> yeah well upgrades shouldn-t break stuff
[21:00] <shadeslayer> I know
[21:00] <afiestas_> if you want people to test stuff during development xD
[21:00] <shadeslayer> Riddell: ^ needs investigation
[21:01] <yofel> home sweet home :)
[21:01] <shadeslayer> hey hey
[21:01]  * shadeslayer is watching 24
[21:01]  * yofel is pretty much used to apt being creative about what it removes on upgrades
[21:01] <afiestas_> with all the packaging stuff you do and the complex it is  is ****** that this happenz (if we have the usable policy on)
[21:01] <yofel> can we make kubuntu-desktop... like essential or so?
[21:02] <shadeslayer> can we do that somehow?
[21:02] <yofel> well, it's not really required to be installed pre-se, just on release upgrades that aren't done with apt
[21:04] <afiestas_> yofel: used muon
[21:04] <afiestas_> also, (I know this is not suppoted but still)
[21:04] <afiestas_> 4.9 upgrade unstalled muon I think
[21:05] <yofel> you don't by chance have the apt history left somewhere?
[21:05] <shadeslayer> isn't that stored into /var/log/apt ?
[21:05] <yofel> it is
[21:05] <shadeslayer> there we go?
[21:06] <shadeslayer> ah, he said that he reinstalled
[21:06] <afiestas_> yofel: from the kdeworkspace-bin not installed or the 4.9 upgrade uninstalling muon?
[21:06] <shadeslayer> yofel: I have logs that show kubuntu-desktop being removed
[21:08] <yofel> afiestas_: what you have. Without at least the package list that was upgraded we'd have to guess what happened
[21:10] <shadeslayer> look for something that removes kde-workspace-bin instead
[21:10] <shadeslayer> because if you remove kde-workspace-bin, kubuntu-desktop will be removed, not the other way around
[21:11] <shadeslayer> yofel: http://paste.kde.org/533204/
[21:11] <shadeslayer> too many packages :(
[21:11] <shadeslayer> libkwinnvidiahack4
[21:11] <shadeslayer> lolwot
[21:11] <yofel> shadeslayer: I once had kde-workspace-bin being removed by a broken dep in kde-workspace-data-extras, so please don't assume that apt behaviour is understandable
[21:11] <shadeslayer> oh my
[21:12] <shadeslayer> apt sure does weird things done
[21:12] <yofel> and yeah, kwin is fun :P
[21:14] <yofel> shadeslayer: are you sure that's not just archive skew from when kde-workspace ubuntu3 was uploaded?
[21:15] <yofel> as I see workspace binaries being upgraded but no -data
[21:15] <Riddell> shadeslayer: it does, on my things to investigate tomorrow list
[21:15] <shadeslayer> yofel: can't say ....
[21:16] <afiestas_> I'm quite sure youc an reproduce it in a vm easily
[21:16] <afiestas_> I installed latest alpha and selected "log in automatically" (it may affect) and clicked on I want third party sfotware and the other checkbox as well
[21:17] <afiestas_> then once log in into quantal, I upgraded using muon, restarted and boom
[21:20] <yofel> afiestas_: did muon at least tell you what it wanted to remove? I remember that aptitude and synaptic show a warning if they remove packages to satisfy dependencies
[21:20]  * yofel should use muon more...
[21:23] <shadeslayer> I just find it too many clicks to upgrade :P
[21:23] <afiestas_> yofel: it said something kinda "Mark upgrades" clicked ok
[21:23] <afiestas_> then a popup with packages, clicked ok as well xD
[21:24] <yofel> ok, that means the UI doesn't have enough RED in it ^^
[21:24] <shadeslayer> :D
[21:24] <shadeslayer> jtechidna: ^^ needs more RED
[21:24] <afiestas_> nope,that means that UI shouldn-t appear if it means destroy your computer
[21:25] <afiestas_> an upgarde should always be safe if we want ppl to test our alphas/betas
[21:25] <afiestas_> common ppl don't go outthere with one spare laptop to test distros...
[21:25] <afiestas_> and if they did the test they'd do would be minimal
[21:25] <afiestas_> install, open rekonq, close
[21:25] <afiestas_> instead of living with i
[21:25] <afiestas_> t
[21:26] <yofel> can we then get an experimental archive where we can do actual *development* ? I don't particular want to use quantal-proposed for that
[21:26] <yofel> and archive skew can be caused by any mixed-arch-all-any package upload, blame launchpad's publisher
[21:27] <afiestas_> you know guys I'm super noob on packaging but I can help you with workflows we use on soft development
[21:27] <afiestas_> what chrome, ff, some KDE projects are using to keep "trunk/master always stable" can be applied here as well
[21:30] <yofel> sure, but then we still need a big red box in muon that one should be careful about upgrading the development release. Nobody here is perfect and sh** happens.
[21:30] <yofel> being careful on upgrades is usually the first thing you get told when you ask for help in #ubuntu+1
[21:30] <afiestas_> yofel: ubuntu has been doing usable +1 for 2 releases (counting this one)(
[21:31] <afiestas_> dunno if that includes upgrades, or how they handle that 
[21:31] <afiestas_> imho if we have an GUI that can break shit, we should say "System can't be upgraded right now" and be done with it
[21:31] <afiestas_> if the user is advanced, he will go to the CLI and use apt
[21:31] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: that's why yofel proposed we should set kubuntu-desktop to Essential or sth
[21:31] <afiestas_> if the user is not, s/he will wait until that "you can't upgrade' is removed
[21:32] <shadeslayer> so that apt says, OMG You don't want to do that
[21:32] <afiestas_> yet most ppl will click on YES
[21:32] <yofel> well, we probably shouldn't do that - or it would have to be done for all meta packages
[21:33] <yofel> afiestas_: the problem is: apt CANNOT tell packages that are supposed to be removed and packages that aren't supposed to be removed apart if some packages have to go as part of the upgrade process
[21:33] <yofel> so the first time you intentionally remove a package - you break muon
[21:34] <yofel> it's a rare case sure, but happens
[21:34] <afiestas_> well it is not that rate, happened to me many times before
[21:35] <afiestas_> that's why i always upgrade after installing a unstable cd because I know it is a delicate thing
[21:35] <afiestas_> I don't know what linmitations apt has, but we should overcome them
[21:35] <afiestas_> maybe we can modify muon so it only allows upgrades (when in development) when we increase an integer somewhere
[21:35] <afiestas_> each time we increase the integer means that all packages are uploaded to launchpad or something of the kind
[21:36]  * afiestas_ speaks without knowing shit about packaing
[21:36] <yofel> nah, skew by full KDE releases can be prevented by uploading to -proposed
[21:36] <yofel> it's the single package upload that's tricky
[21:37] <afiestas_> why is tricky? :s
[21:38] <afiestas_> excuse me fort my :s or :? or questions but you have to understand that for an outsider it is really weird that we have this problems
[21:38] <afiestas_> when having launchpad, apt, complex packaging etc
[21:38] <afiestas_> if for something all that should serve is for making these thigns easy and straight forward, and we are always having troubles
[21:39] <debfx> what was the problem? kde-workspace was temporarily uninstallable?
[21:39] <yofel> afiestas_: well, here's what I *think* happened in shadeslayer's paste: someone uploaded a small fix in kde-workspace directly to quantal - amd64 was finished building before i386 so was published earlier, he tried to upgrade and apt messed up because the kde-workspace-data* is only built on i386 and was thus missing
[21:40] <afiestas_> yofel: so if I try to reproduce it now it won't happen?
[21:40] <afiestas_> I mean, I would love to use quantal, I always like to be int he edge and give feedback
[21:40] <afiestas_> if you tell me it shuouldn't, I can try again
[21:40] <debfx> in that case the solution is to always upload kde-workspace to -proposed
[21:40] <yofel> debfx: well, we're talking about how to prevent that muon removes kde-workspace-bin or so on archive skew leaving you without a GUI
[21:40] <shadeslayer> yofel: but that shouldn't happen since afiestas_ upgraded only recently
[21:40] <shadeslayer> or
[21:41] <shadeslayer> maybe he's using a out of sync mirror
[21:41] <yofel> well, he didn't post logs, so god knows what happened, but it's probably something along those lines
[21:41] <shadeslayer> *nod*
[21:41] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: try on a vm and post logs from /var/log/apt/
[21:42]  * afiestas_ is astonished
[21:42] <afiestas_> if I get a repo out of syncs taht can crash my system?
[21:42] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: it can cause critical packages to be removed
[21:42] <afiestas_> shadeslayer: nah going to install it on my laptop and see what happens
[21:42] <shadeslayer> uh ok :P
[21:42] <debfx> these problems will go away eventually when all uploads end up in proposed and are automatically moved to release when the packages are installable
[21:42] <shadeslayer> tl;dr multiarch 
[21:42] <afiestas_> I'm liking apt less by minutes
[21:43] <shadeslayer> and the fact that arch independent packages might get published later on ....
[21:43] <yofel> shadeslayer: what debfx said resolves that
[21:43] <afiestas_> can't we stop using launchpad? it seems to create more problem that it solves
[21:43] <shadeslayer> right
[21:43] <afiestas_> at least for building I mean
[21:43] <shadeslayer> haha
[21:43] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: you crack me up
[21:43] <afiestas_> what control do we have about all this?
[21:43] <afiestas_> can muon do some safetyu check? 
[21:43] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: upload to -proposed
[21:44] <shadeslayer> now that we're in universe, I'm a bit scared of other MOTU's
[21:44] <shadeslayer> that was the only downside of going into universe
[21:44] <shadeslayer> s/downside/fear I had/
[21:44] <kubotu> shadeslayer meant: "that was the only fear I had of going into universe"
[21:45] <debfx> so far that hasn't been an issue
[21:45] <shadeslayer> well .. yes
[21:45] <shadeslayer> but who knows what might happen :)
[21:45] <yofel> we already had core-devs changing stuff in our packages too and it wasn't an issue, so I doubt much will happen
[21:48] <afiestas_> lol
[21:48] <afiestas_> now the live cd boots into a lightdm
[21:48] <afiestas_> with white background
[21:49] <afiestas_> I don-t see the user, only asks me password
[21:49] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: it's ubuntu
[21:49] <shadeslayer> afaicr
[21:49] <afiestas_> it worked before :s
[21:49] <afiestas_> well, thios is way unstable, will test next release
[21:50] <shadeslayer> I've heard issues about this happening, afaik happens in Ubuntu as well
[21:50] <shadeslayer> Never experienced it myself
[22:17] <afiestas_> is there any ppa with latest telepathy?
[22:18] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: latest stable telepathy for?
[22:18] <shadeslayer> precise?
[22:18] <afiestas_> kde telepathy,12.04
[22:19] <shadeslayer> sec
[22:19] <shadeslayer> afiestas_: https://launchpad.net/~telepathy-kde/+archive/ppa
[22:19] <shadeslayer> I'm going to move that to Kubuntu Backports tomorrow
[23:03] <Darkwing> is anyone else having issues logging into 12.10?
[23:03] <Darkwing> lightdm wont log in