[04:27] Hi! [09:46] hi! [11:00] Hi! [11:06] yes, we can hear you [11:07] knome: How's the Ubuntu Studio website! [11:07] ? [11:27] uhm, it's fine. [11:28] Good!@ [12:04] Hi falktx [12:04] lol I'm glad it's fine knome [12:04] * smartboyhw waves at stochastic [12:05] :S [12:05] hey smartboyhw [12:05] Hi [12:06] Busy testing daily build of 12.04.1, helping someone in #ubuntu-testing [12:06] oh you know we never did set the next meeting time at the end of the meeting, though there wasn't enough people to really make it matter [12:06] anyways I'm off to bed [12:06] What? [12:07] I think we'll have one before Beta 1 [12:07] ok [12:08] Actually, anyone know what's -dt and -nb mean for Len? [12:10] netbook and downtown? [12:10] ... [12:11] We'll ask him later, then [12:11] *desktop [12:11] notebook and desktop, that works [12:11] Thanks, stochastic [13:29] * smartboyhw waves at falktx again [13:37] * smartboyhw waves at scott-work [13:37] hi smartboyhw [13:46] scott-work: Really, how are you going to plan the YouTube channel? [13:50] smartboyhw: Did you start working on documentation yet? [13:51] ailo: What docu do you want me to write first? [13:51] I don't even know what to write [13:51] smartboyhw: I can't do the work for you, cause then I would be doing it instead of you. [13:52] I know, give me a suggestion on what to write. [13:52] I will write it out [13:52] But, the guideline is, it should be a simple documentation for users on how to use Ubuntu Studio [13:52] smartboyhw: do you use ubuntu studio to create any content? [13:52] Maybe video [13:52] "maybe"? [13:52] Yep, I only use it on video [13:52] Also publishing [13:52] i don't mean what could you do in the future, I am asking what do you currently use ubuntu studio to do [13:53] Publishing and video [13:53] then write about those topics because you have practical knowledge [13:53] OK [13:53] smartboyhw: Yea. Just start something. A couple of pages, and show it to use. We'll give you input [13:53] Show it to us* [13:53] exactly [13:54] just document your work flow for doing a particular task [13:54] Guys, it takes 1 day for doing this [13:54] It doesn't need to be finished today [13:54] So you need to wait [13:54] that's fine, not much we do is immediate gratification :P [13:55] smartboyhw: We have patience [13:55] I think I will write about publishing first [13:55] Sounds great [13:57] I think I will finish the draft in 1 - 2 days [13:57] np. It will probably take many weeks to finalize the documentation [13:57] We still need to work on the other areas as well [13:57] Yep [13:58] ailo: What sorts of areas? [13:58] I'll do audio, but not until much later [13:58] We'll need something for each workflow category. But, we might also need something on just basic desktop usage [13:59] Short and concise [14:11] Writing the publishing documentation [14:12] len-dt: I'm just about to build some kernels. configs of interest? [14:13] I'll at least build one with tickless timer [14:14] And I'm omitting the threadirqs patch, so we can do that manually between boots [14:15] I'll have the tests ready sometime this week. Still need to go through each one and decide which are tweakable during runtime [14:15] ailo: If I have written the documentation can I join the documentation team in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure [14:16] smartboyhw: Sure. The teamstructure is more as a place for people to know who is doing what, in case someone wants to ask questions [14:17] Oh [14:18] smartboyhw, you can work on anything without being on a "team". Just attach a file and email it. or make a personal branch and point us at it. [14:19] OK, I will sent you all the draft 2 days later [14:19] Anytime you are ready. No hurry [14:23] len-dt: I'll also build some rt kernels. There's no patch for the 3.5 however. Seems like they don't do patches for the odd numbers [14:24] Would be good to get a picture of how big a difference there is between -lowlatency and -rt [14:24] ailo, sounds like fun. [14:24] ailo, I think some people use -rt just because. [14:24] len-dt: I agree [14:26] I think some people feel we use -lowlatency just because too. [14:28] I think most people don't realize why we have it in the first place. 1. they don't know it's actually very good perfomance wise (probably just as good as -rt) 2. It's foolproof easy to mantain [14:28] I have an -rt on this Debian platform. [14:28] Yeah, I got someone complaining about the -lowlatency kernel in #ubuntustudio [14:28] they have an -rt in the main wheezy repo [14:29] smartboyhw: What kind of complaint? [14:29] I think having a clean system is more important than people realize. [14:29] Asking why we use low-latency [14:29] BTW, I got someone to use Ubuntu Studio today. [14:30] smartboyhw: I would not label asking why we use lowlatency a complaing [14:30] complaint* [14:30] Anyway, I gotta go. bb in a few hours [14:30] bye [14:31] bye [14:47] len-dt: Still here? [15:12] o/ if you are here. [15:12] ? [15:13] Oh hi holstein [15:13] How are you today? [15:13] not bad... tired... sore... feeling good [15:13] and you? [15:13] hi holstein :) [15:13] Fine, just finished writing 1/2 of the Ubuntu Studio publishing documentation that he asked me to write. [15:14] scott-work: \o/ [15:14] Hi scott-work [15:14] smartboyhw: what type of publishing will your documentation explain? [15:15] Document, probably newsletters [15:15] I will focus on professional publication making [15:18] smartboyhw: do you actually make newsletters or professional publications? [15:18] Newsletters [15:18] good! i very much look forward to getting good information on making newsletters [15:19] yay! [15:19] smartboyhw: i ask because i desire to have the "right" applications included for a particular task [15:19] OK [15:19] and by "right" i mean applications that people actually use to make real things that other people really want [15:20] !? [15:20] let's put this in the perspective of a professional: [15:21] i know some people who use FOSS software to make a real magazine [15:21] i value their input because they are using the same tools that i want to use and that are available [15:21] i also value their input because they are doing this professional, meaning they have a product of value and people desire this product [15:22] scott-work: Do you work at a marketing department?:) [15:22] smartboyhw: i do not, i am an engineering supervisor [15:22] scott-work: From the above sentences I think you are better to be in marketing:) [15:23] however, i feel that one of my strengths is breaking things down into easily understandable concepts and organizing [15:25] so, i value the professionals input, probably more than someone who doesn't have any work experience or portfolio and knows "exactly how to do this" [15:25] i also value the professional more than just someone who can figure it out and get something done, even if that "something" is a good product [15:26] fact is, we likey wont attract pros til the "proffesional" tools are written for our platform [15:26] the industry standards [15:26] ... [15:26] there are folks who are certain protools is literally the only way to make a recording [15:26] What do you mean by "industry standards"? It's hard to define [15:26] i think the graphics/video folk are more particular even [15:27] smartboyhw: nah... protools is the industry standard... adobe lightroom... [15:27] i say that because the professional probably has experienced problems and discovered solutions for them, so they have experience to guide a better work flow most likely [15:27] microsoft office [15:27] this is fact... [15:27] holstein: You can't port M$ office to Ubuntu [15:27] Only LibreOffice [15:27] holstein: i wonder if some perceptions are changing however [15:27] i agree that there are going to be isolated areas that will not change [15:28] smartboyhw: im not suggesting we do.. however, microsoft *can* 'port' it to linux if they want [15:28] You mean that I should stop writing things for publishing and instead go for photography and video? [15:28] scott-work: seems like android might be helping? not sure.. but it does seem that way to me [15:28] smartboyhw: im just talking outloud my friend [15:28] smartboyhw: not at all, i value all input [15:28] OK [15:29] trying to help determine a target audience [15:29] smartboyhw: and i apologize if i unintentionally slighted you, i was directing any of those comments directly at you, i do not really know your experience [15:29] errr [15:29] "i was NOT directing any...." [15:29] Yeah, it's time we attract more professional users to use Ubuntu Studio! [15:29] sorry :) [15:29] i know, i personally try and teach and show folks in more of a general computer science mind frame... how to get from point a to point b, rather than "heres how to use ardour" [15:29] :) [15:30] holstein: i mention a change in perspective because of people buying apps from "app store" and even google online tools [15:30] it shows that you _don't_ need the conventional tools to do things [15:30] scott-work: i like how online tools are easily cross platform [15:30] just a shift in perspective, but it could build momentum [15:30] easy to access... already backed up... syncronized [15:30] lots of positives assuming the security is acceptable [15:30] has lots of advantages [15:31] i think personally this is how the entire world will move eventually [15:31] we will be holding "dumb terminals" and all processing done in the cloud, as well as storage [15:31] i cant say i mind... thats what i try to get users to do, just out of the ease of it [15:31] scott-work and holstein: You two both sounded like Steve Jobs... [15:31] use Gdocs... gmail... evernote... dropbox [15:31] change OS's whenever you like [15:32] use literally whatever machine anywhere anytime [15:32] its handy [15:32] i think taking these ideas and implementing ones own alternatives, such as owncloud, is the ultimate "right" answer [15:33] not that i even personally care to take the time to maintain an owncloud server ;) ...i cant expect my mom to do that [15:33] yeah, it will take a generation before most people will be able to accept cloud based computing and storage as "the norm" or even acceptable [15:34] But cloud IS the future [15:34] maybe they're afraid of security [15:34] or, just someone like apple to just do it in the background, and not tell you [15:35] "access your documents from anywhere" with no explanation of the security or services [15:35] not that thats all bad.. i suggest apple to users i think its an appropriate match for [15:35] smartboyhw: i would say that it (the cloud) is too big of a shift to what they know and are comfortable using [15:35] most folks still have no idea... they buy a machine, it "comes on".. they use it... [15:36] most older people who use computers are comftable with a desktop computer on which you install microsoft windows [15:36] my girlfriend teaches computer classes at a high school.. professionally.. went to school for that [15:36] you tell them you can replace windows or the OS and they think you want them to buy a new computer [15:36] to them windows IS the computer [15:36] she's *never* installed an operating system [15:36] wow, that's kinda ...disturbing in a way [15:36] ... [15:36] I'm 14, and I know how to install Ubuntu [15:37] we are asking a lot of a user.. to decide the machine is "not working" and to determine its the operating system.. assuming they no what that means [15:37] then, install a different operating system [15:37] *none* of my engineer friends could handle that [15:37] maybe one.. but he still preffers sonar on XP [15:37] also, i think the success of android in the mainstream market (albeit most likely a tech savvy "mainstream") will benefit linux and ubuntu studio as well [15:38] holstein: They are s****heads [15:38] gives it legitimacy it didn't have before [15:38] smartboyhw: please watch the language [15:38] smartboyhw: age doesnt matter.. its a matter of expeience, and folks just dont do that [15:38] ... [15:38] aye [15:38] you're not supposed to, and with all the iDevices and android phones and tablets... you dont do that [15:39] you buy what you buy [15:39] and thats fine.. its just something i think we need to think about as a community [15:39] Looks like a 14-year-old is even better than an adult that teaches computer classes [15:39] maybe go the preconfigured hardwrae route like system76 [15:39] smartboyhw: again, it makes no diffrence your age.. only experience [15:40] i've got to get real work done [15:40] scott-work: o\ [15:40] scott-work: o/ [15:41] holstein: I don't have much experience [15:41] smartboyhw: cool.. then imagine what it must be like when you say to someone "try ubuntustudio, heres a live CD" [15:41] or worse yet.. "heres a link to a download page" [15:42] holstein: The worse yet one isn't worse, the first one is more worse [15:42] you have much more experience right now than arguably 90+% of computer users ;) [15:42] I don't have a Live CD [15:42] I just have a 4GB USV! [15:42] *USB [15:42] smartboyhw: again, i think you are getting caught up on the details of my statement [15:42] what im suggesting is empathy for the non-technical norm [15:43] this does not mean they are not "smart" or "technical" even.. in context, i am much less technically proficient than scott-work [15:43] OK [15:43] I'm much less technically proficient than all of you [15:44] but, i think we can all learn a lot by thinking about that user who has no idea what you mean when you say "kernel" or "operating system" [15:44] Kernel is difficult to learn [15:44] the target audience for me is no one now [15:44] i dont try and convert anyone anymore [15:44] not by force, thats for sure [15:44] But then operating system is not difficult to learn [15:44] folks come to me, and they say "why do you have no viruses" or "why does your stuff always work" [15:45] thats when i talk about it.. and i say "you dont want to usre this.. its challenging, and totally worth it" [15:45] holstein: Really, that's great [15:45] but i suggest trying other options.. other alternatives... other os's.. i want folks to get whats best for them [15:45] I agree [15:45] is linux the best choice?.. thats a matter of opinion, and my opinion is, i can do whatever i need in linux, and you can to [15:46] holstein: Did you try yo build the new 3.6 kernel? [15:46] but, that doesnt mean that this ficitious person cares about that.. they might just want to "hit the button" and get some work done with some software they are comfortable with that they understand [15:47] took me quite a while to switch from cubas on XP to ardour on linux... and i wouldnt have it any other way [15:47] but, someone with a buisness... they might prefer protools on osx.. they are making the $$ to afford the tools, and i cant say 'ardour is *so* much better" [15:48] i can only say "i prefer JACK, and like the routing, and the open-ness of the community" [15:48] and share my work, and let it stand.. and if they want to talk shop, we can... [15:48] holstein: You sort of ignored my question [15:48] 16 lines above [15:48] smartboyhw: i wouldnt say "sort of" [15:48] smartboyhw: i was talking... and you asked a question [15:49] holstein: Please finish your long speech...:) [15:49] smartboyhw: while i was typing a response, you state i ignored you [15:49] Sorry [15:49] Not sure if you are going to respond after such long lines of typing [15:49] smartboyhw: this is what i meant the other day when i suggested waitng a few minutes [15:49] OH! [15:50] smartboyhw: i would say, for you, you can wait a good 10 minutes before firing off anyting like that [15:50] holstein, I was thinking about the session manager and realizing in win/OSx they don't need it because most DAWs include everything in one program and the program is the session. I am guessing that is the direction ardour is headed. [15:50] Sorry [15:50] * smartboyhw waves at len-dt [15:50] i am capable of missing a question, no doubt.. but you should know and trust this community enough by now to know you are not going to be purposefully ignored smartboyhw [15:51] just reading the back scroll got me thinking. [15:51] holstein: I've been purposefully ignored somehow in the past few days [15:51] smartboyhw: no worries.. im just explaining what can come off as "abrasive" from your "netiquette" [15:52] Don't worry, I got a mentor to teach me "netiquette" [15:52] smartboyhw: everyone everwhere are volunteers [15:53] folks get busy... i joined #ubuntustudio, asked a questions.. i think a week later stochastic answered me when he was around [15:53] Wow! [15:53] A week! [15:54] ive been hanging there ever since, trying to at least greet everyone, and make sure they get redirected, or know that we are not dead, just busy and small [15:54] smartboyhw: ive waited much longer than that [15:54] smartboyhw: a day is typically what i suggest on the irc.. that way all the timezones have had a chance to go around [15:55] When things get very specialized, fewer people can answer the questions. You just gotta learn to wait for that someone to drop by. [15:55] smartboyhw, I often type several lines and get the response the next day. I have learned never to say hi or are you there.Just type what needs saying and wait... or go away for a bit. [15:55] smartboyhw: anyways... i have not built my own kernel yet.. i have not compiled one at all, though i still read about it occasinoally and plan to [15:55] smartboyhw: i "still* havent read len-dt 's post above, but he knows im going to... [15:56] len-dt: im not sure... i know there is a proposed new sound system? klang? [15:56] len-dt: other DAW's dont have the interoperablility we do, so i think its a non-issue [15:57] len-dt: i would love to have a few minutes with las in private to know what he thinks [15:57] Isn't it still quite infant? [15:57] holstein, klang is a yet to be. [15:57] astraljava: i think its still a dream [15:57] i dont think theres any code yet, right? [15:57] Most likely. [15:58] It wasn't supposed to even be anounced yet as there is no code. Just an idea [15:58] ... [15:59] holstein, I was thinking of a session manager for other than audio nad as I thought I was going it maybe doesn't make sense. [15:59] The workflow is different. [15:59] len-dt: quite differnt [15:59] astraljava: Are you in for the QA meeting tmr? [15:59] When you were talking about the professional use of other OSs I realized they are mostly one app does it all. [16:00] its the first thing i would miss, and keeps me on linux for sure... but the typical protools user has no idea [16:00] smartboyhw: Don't know yet. We'll see tomorrow. It's about that time when I either get out of work, or am freakishly busy at the office still. [16:00] So session management is a linux idea. [16:00] len-dt: the idea of JACK running "first" or "in the background" is quite different [16:00] astraljava: Ok, hopefully I will see ya then [16:01] holstein, I have been looking at nama, not because we should include it but out of personal interest. [16:02] I am realizing there is a whole other workflow for CLI [16:03] I have a friend who is a blind computer tech and am realizing how a GUI can be a hindrance and not a help. [16:03] * astraljava suddenly gets interested [16:04] * smartboyhw gets interested too [16:04] I am remembering that at lot of our softsynths are CLI apps with gui wrapers. [16:06] len-dt: Would you think of some scripts or the likes as tools for such a work flow? [16:07] I think it would be interesting to have a non-X audio server/box that can be used standalone for someone who wants that or can add extra function to a gui machine using using netjack. [16:07] nama is a set of scripts in perl for ecasound [16:07] Fascinating. [16:08] Anyway, just thinking "out loud". [16:09] I hear ya. No pun intended. [16:09] "out loud" so that it is logged [16:09] :) [16:09] smartboyhw: think of #ubuntu-meeting as a "common area" [16:09] holstein: Why? [16:09] its a place where one must be aware, and and keep it clear and clean [16:10] Isn't it #ubuntu or #ubuntuforums or #ubuntu-offtopic? [16:10] its important to check the schedule, and be respectful in there [16:10] thats where the main teams meet and do buisness... sometimes thats the only contact they will have for who knows how long [16:11] its important that they be given the opportunity to be as efficient as possible.. like it was when we had our meeting there [16:11] Don't you think I know, I'm chair sometimes on QA [16:12] smartboyhw: cool... what i see you doint right now in ubuntu-meeting is coming off as "in the way" [16:13] smartboyhw: i feel you are about to be officially reprimanded, and i am giving you a polite heads-up [16:13] "officially reprimanded" what does that mean? [16:13] to which, you can repond with either "no thanks, i know what im doing" or "ok, thanks" [16:13] but, you will not hit be with "i know" [16:13] Please improve my English vocab:) [16:14] because, you dont know.. otherwise, it would be more clear to me why you are disrupting a meeting, or that you are supposed to be there [16:14] holstein: Did I disrupt a meeting? [16:14] smartboyhw: i dont know? are you part of that meeting? [16:15] smartboyhw: im just trying to give you a heads-up man.. do you thing [16:15] Can't I just idle there/ [16:16] smartboyhw: sure.. but you are not idle there.. you are commenting in the meeting that you are not a part of [16:16] But that's related to Ubuntu Server [16:16] I'm contacting to see if I can help in testing [16:17] smartboyhw: sure.. but thats not where or when to do that [16:17] you can literlaly google "ubuntu server team" [16:17] You thoughy [16:17] I did do it [16:17] imagine we were in the middle of our meeting the other day, and someone came in and said "hey guys, i want to help" [16:18] its not the place to do that.. and its fine that you dont konw that... but im telling you, right now [16:18] asking the team during their meeting *is* disruptive, and again, your enthusiasm is noted and appreciated [16:20] holstein: Do you know how old am I? [16:21] im only giving you a 'heads-up'.. some actions like that recieve punishments that i dont think you would appreciate [16:21] holstein: Just guess [16:21] smartboyhw: again, its not your age.. its your experience... and i think you have a mature does of both, and greatly appreciate you being here [16:21] dose* [16:21] I mean, guess it [16:22] Bye now, need to sleep [16:22] smartboyhw: enjoy! [16:23] holstein, thank you very much! [16:24] len-dt: :D ...i should have probably did that in a PM.. but i wanted to keep it constructive [16:24] It helps keep people like me calm. I have been quiet rathger than say something I would not want to. [16:34] holstein: It's alright to keep in here. Other people will see what has been done, and he also learns that polite and constructive discussion can be had publicly as well. [16:54] holstein: paul on klang -> http://ardour.org/pd_on_klang [17:01] not surprisingly, paul is direct to the point and knowledgeable [18:30] Thanks, scott-work! a GOOD READ. :) [18:30] meh... caps [18:33] oh good, i wasn't sure if my post went through, webchat dropped irc again :/ [18:34] i thought it was interesting as well [20:23] astraljava: cool... i was thinking something along those lines.. keep it public for transparency if nothing else [20:23] * holstein reading about KLANG scott-work [20:26] scott-work: well, that does it for me... im convinced [20:40] i would be interested if the klang people came back and rationally and articulately addressed paul's comments [20:41] scott-work: we can only hope.. i wish they'd offer to work on JACK instead.. or ubuntustudio! [20:41] but i imagine (although i could be completely wrong) they will just say paul is wrong and stupid without any evidence and go on doing their stuff [20:42] i would probably want to react like that as well though... at first [20:42] holstein: i believe that many people who do these types of things (i.e. "i'm going to make a new sound server and screw all that other stuff you're already doing...i'm not helping you...i'm creating the future!!!!") are not philantrhopic people, they aren't doing it to better anything for everyone, they are creating something for themselves [20:43] hopefully they know who he is [20:43] and by "creating something for themselves" i believe that to be fame and notoriety, not software [20:43] yeah, i'm a little jaded and i would be really glad to be wrong though [20:44] jeez, work is crazy these days and going to get worse for a while before it gets better [20:44] scott-work: :/ [20:44] *shrug* it is what it is [20:50] scott-work: The person behind Kland did answer the forum [20:50] ailo: oh ho, i should read the comments then :) [20:51] was it a crap answer or an articulate one? [20:51] scott-work: Also, the discussion kept going on a different forum [20:51] scott-work: He's quite serious. But, first of all, he never announced Klang. That was the first mistake in Pauls comments [20:51] ah, i will have to look for this later one [20:51] that's exciting news then [20:52] It is hard to tell unless you are developing audio drivers and really know as much as they do. [20:53] I did some background check on this guy. Someone posted a youtube video about him on LAU list [20:53] He does game engine hacking on his sparetime [20:53] But works as a system admin somewhere in Germany [20:53] wow, some very serious heavyweights of linux audio posting in the comments so far [22:37] stochastic, re: the website code in LP; i need some access to https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website [22:38] i'm in the website team, but i might need to be admin; scott needs to do that [22:38] LP says that there's no branches in that product, and probably only admins can create those [22:38] scott could also create that branch, and then *maybe* i would be able to push to that [22:39] there's also *this*: https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website-content [22:39] * stochastic looks [22:39] i think either of those products are actually redundant. you only need one product [22:39] we're doing it like this with xubuntu: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-website-wordpress [22:39] we have a branch for plugins, theme and countdown banners there [22:40] while that is not quite how branches are usually used, it works for us [22:40] (yes, we have xubuntu-website product too, but that's the old website, and we should get rid of that) [22:46] knome if you can merge your branch with this: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website that would be the best solution for now [22:47] but that's the old website branch too [22:47] but i suppose i can try that [22:47] i'll do that in the next 30mins [22:48] yes, that's the old website, but if we don't merge the new code into there then we'll have two different branches both claiming to be current [22:48] mmh. [22:48] but if i merge there, the studio website products are unnecessary too. [22:49] bug managing is easier if you have a product [22:49] yes, there seems to be multiple products that are empty and lacking of purpose [22:49] we'll need to run any further changes through scott [22:49] yeah [22:49] he has owner status over things from what I see [22:50] yup. [22:57] stochastic, oops, see #xubuntu-devel [22:57] :) [23:00] yeah, I'm not too worried about the history knome [23:03] me neither, just wanted to check with you. [23:03] i'll do that push in a minute [23:06] looks like i need to upgrade the branch format too :) [23:06] don't know how long that takes, but doing [23:32]