[00:12] <pleia2> but maybe over here
[00:16] <knome> mmh, true
[00:18] <pleia2> I like the ones that were originally on the main page, the "new to" ones are kind meh
[00:18] <pleia2> maybe keep chapter 4 link
[00:18] <knome> btw, we have this too: file:///usr/share/doc/xfce4-utils/html/C/index.html
[00:18] <pleia2> oh brother
[00:19] <pleia2> I forgot about that
[00:19] <knome> hehe
[00:19] <knome> well, we can use that...
[00:19] <knome> :]
[00:19] <knome> but it's 2008 too.. ;]
[00:19] <pleia2> yeah, link to it
[00:19] <pleia2> hah
[00:19] <knome> (at best.)
[00:19] <pleia2> maybe they updated it for 4.10 :)
[00:19] <knome> some parts are 2004
[00:19] <knome> This manual describes xfwm4 version 4.8.3 
[00:19] <knome> says the xfwm page, for example
[00:20] <knome> i think they had the idea to update
[00:20] <knome> but i'm not sure if anything good came out of that
[00:20] <knome> we could just rewrite that too.
[00:20] <knome> ;]
[00:20] <pleia2> hahah
[00:20] <knome> it doesn't really seem to take too long to rewrite some stuff.
[00:20] <pleia2> ok, you sleep on monday, wednesday and friday, I get tuesday, thursday and saturday
[00:20] <knome> hehe
[00:21] <knome> do i need to sleep at all if i don't want to?
[00:21] <pleia2> bits stop working after you don't sleep for a couple days
[00:21] <knome> not really.
[00:21] <knome> only after 4 days.
[00:21] <pleia2> hah
[00:21] <pleia2> I think we ignore xfce for now
[00:22] <knome> i used to be able to do *months* with a few hours of sleep per night when i was younger...
[00:22] <pleia2> ah, to be young again!
[00:22] <knome> yeah. young, arrogant and all that stuff.
[00:22] <knome> anyway... back to docs
[00:22] <pleia2> :)
[00:22] <knome> "backing and support" clearly doesn't deserve its own subpage
[00:23] <knome> so does not "version and release numbers"
[00:23] <pleia2> yeah
[00:23] <pleia2> I think both can go under "What is Xubuntu?"
[00:23] <knome> yup
[00:23] <knome> i'll do that.
[00:24] <pleia2> do we want to create a 3. Installing and upgrading
[00:24] <pleia2> and pretty much copy docs from the website?
[00:24] <knome> hmm.
[00:24] <knome> i'm thinking how much our users would benefit from having "installing" there
[00:24] <knome> they are already running the cd at least
[00:25] <pleia2> yeah
[00:28] <knome> oh but yeah, i suppose we would benefit of such section
[00:28] <knome> even if it was just upgrading
[00:28] <pleia2> mostly I was just trying to find a home for upgrading :)
[00:28] <knome> but maybe we could group that with the existing 3
[00:28] <knome> "uprading"
[00:28] <knome> "migrating from other OS'es"
[00:29] <pleia2> hm
[00:29] <pleia2> "importing their favorites from Microsoft Internet Explorer 6" hehe, IE6
[00:29] <knome> "heh"...
[00:29] <pleia2> remember 2003?!
[00:29] <pleia2> :)
[00:30] <knome> i was 17 then
[00:30] <knome> i suppose i barely do
[00:30] <pleia2> lol
[00:30] <knome> that was about when i met my wife
[00:31] <pleia2> I was 22 and working at a webdev firm, trying to continue supporting IE5 and swearing a lot :x
[00:31] <pleia2> browser compatibility pain is what made me learn I wasn't cut out for webdev :)
[00:31] <knome> hah :)
[00:31] <knome> like IE6 wasn't still a pain...
[00:32] <knome> ok, see http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10/What%20is%20Xubuntu%3F now
[00:32] <pleia2> maybe just make Upgrading its own thing, I can't think of how to merge it with "if you've been using windows"
[00:33] <knome> gimme 2mins and i'll tell you
[00:33] <pleia2> that's nice
[00:33] <knome> main page "Getting up-to-date"
[00:33] <knome> "whether you're coming from windows or upgrading your old xubuntu installation..."
[00:34] <knome> \o/
[00:34] <knome> well, that's just an idea
[00:34] <pleia2> ok
[00:34] <knome> but i don't want too many pages
[00:34] <pleia2> it does imply that windows isn't up to date :)
[00:34] <knome> it's just horrible to even look at the old TOC
[00:34] <knome> heh, well is it? :P
[00:35] <pleia2> it's certainly not as shiny as linux
[00:35] <knome> or just "Migrating and Upgrading"
[00:35] <pleia2> yeah that's good
[00:35] <pleia2> Migrating from Windows
[00:35] <pleia2> Upgrading from an older version of Xubuntu
[00:36] <knome> mental note to self: do not typo page names
[00:38] <knome> mmh, then we need to suppress those windows pages :)
[00:38] <knome> hmm
[00:38] <knome> i just noticed you were editing the page
[00:38] <knome> :D
[00:39] <pleia2> haha, sorry
[00:39] <pleia2> fixed a little typo, I'm out now
[00:39] <knome> the lock should be a hard lock
[00:39] <knome> well i updated already :P
[00:39] <pleia2> no conflicts, we're ok
[00:39] <knome> hehe, good
[00:39] <knome> i think the "glossary of windows terms" is actually quite useful, but that isn't quite what the title says
[00:40] <knome> it's more like a windows-linux dictionary
[00:41] <pleia2> heh, file:///usr/share/xubuntu-docs/about/xubuntu-index.html
[00:42] <pleia2> yeah, what do you call a thing that translates terms
[00:43] <knome> dictionary? :P
[00:43] <knome> isn't that essentially what it is
[00:43] <knome> we should drop some of the stuff there, but some are good
[00:43] <pleia2> yeah
[00:43] <knome> like control panel <> settings manager
[00:44] <pleia2> I don't think I know enough about Windows anymore
[00:44] <knome> (and stuff under "system")
[00:44] <knome> heh :)
[00:44] <knome> maybe we can ask somebody who does
[00:44] <pleia2> I don't know people like that
[00:44] <pleia2> :D
[00:45] <pleia2> the internet has some
[00:45] <knome> yeah, some
[00:45] <knome> so
[00:45] <knome> should i group the windows pages whatsoever
[00:46] <pleia2> I think maybe the dictionary can be merged with "migrating data"
[00:47] <pleia2> since we can drop some of them if we do that, because 
[00:47] <pleia2> "migrating" covers some of them
[00:47] <knome> hmm
[00:47] <knome> i wonder if there's some page in the ubuntu community wiki about converting stuff
[00:48] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingToUbuntu/FromWindows
[00:48] <knome> ahh
[00:49] <knome> http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10/Migrating%20from%20Windows is loooong
[00:49] <pleia2> yeah
[00:49] <knome> that should be much shorter, to not scare people
[00:50] <knome> the migrating data page does kind of the same thing
[00:50] <knome> or, describes
[00:50] <knome> how can it be so much text.
[00:50] <pleia2> I don't love that the page exists at all to be honest
[00:51] <knome> yeah, but i imagine it's valuable information for somebody coming from windows
[00:51] <knome> but yeah, users migrating from windows aren't our main target
[00:51] <pleia2> I'd rather see a page explaining that Xubuntu is not Windows, here are a few things that are different, see <online docs> for more about specific things
[00:51] <knome> mm-hmm
[00:52] <knome> what if we start by dropping the converting stuff?
[00:52] <knome> let's see how it looks after taht
[00:52] <knome> *that
[00:52] <pleia2> yeah
[00:52]  * pleia2 looks at ubuntu docs for inspiration
[00:53] <pleia2> yeah, they don't mention windows at all ;)
[00:53] <knome> heh
[00:53] <knome> do we want a list of things users need to configure their internet?
[00:53] <knome> isn't that what their operators should do
[00:54] <pleia2> it should happen with magic
[00:54] <knome>   ipconfig /all > C:\network_settings.txt
[00:54] <knome> wut
[00:54] <knome> :D
[00:54] <knome> some samba stuff might be cool.
[00:54] <pleia2> hehe
[00:54] <knome> or not cool, but actually useful
[00:55] <pleia2> yeah, enough people want to do shares
[00:55] <knome> "if there are stil idio^Wusers using windows in your local network, ..."
[00:56] <pleia2> I use samba, I get all kinds of goofy devices connecting to my share
[00:56] <knome> yeah, goofy
[00:56] <knome> http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10/Migrating from Windows
[00:56] <knome> sad.
[00:56] <knome> http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10/Migrating%20Your%20Data%20Into%20Xubuntu
[00:56] <knome> so that then
[00:56] <knome> what do we want to keep?
[00:57] <knome> i imagine we could replace the loooong files section with a simple table
[00:57] <knome> glossary-style
[00:57] <knome> "where are my files"
[00:57] <pleia2> photos and music are obsolete
[00:58] <pleia2> does windows have a photo manager?
[00:58] <knome> "Xubuntu does not include a powerful photo manager by default."
[00:58] <knome> ERR
[00:58] <knome> wrong
[00:58] <knome> :D
[00:58] <knome> even if we didn't, DON'T SAY THAT
[00:58] <knome> obsolete, but should we rewrite them?
[00:58] <pleia2> I think we just delete the photos thing, windows doesn't do any better by default
[00:58] <pleia2> afaik
[00:59] <pleia2> same with music I think
[00:59] <knome> hmm.
[00:59] <pleia2> they just live in directories and you clicky on files to make them go
[00:59] <knome> i think we could have a small section on default apps
[00:59] <knome> "how to add your music to gmb"
[00:59] <knome> "how to import your settings to firefox"
[00:59] <knome> and just really quickly go through that
[01:00] <knome> and link to online, app-maintained, docs
[01:00] <pleia2> but that should go in 5. Music, Video and Photos
[01:00] <pleia2> not in windows part
[01:00] <knome> and do that on *one page*, so we don't have to go through everything if we change our default apps
[01:00] <knome> yeah.
[01:01] <knome> what about new section
[01:01] <pleia2> like so maybe, under Music - Xubuntu offers gmb to organize your music, see [[Music]]
[01:01] <knome> "Quick guide to the default applications"
[01:01] <knome> and link to each one's one docs
[01:01] <knome> and add some really useful/common tasks
[01:01] <pleia2> ok
[01:02] <knome> i'm just thinking what should we have there
[01:02] <knome> probably tb/ff import and that gmb collection thing
[01:02] <knome> what else?
[01:02] <pleia2> so we put "Office" and "Music, Video and Photos" under that subheading
[01:02] <knome> possibly yes...
[01:02] <knome> and definitely yes too :P
[01:03] <pleia2> :)
[01:03] <knome> but what else would there be to it?
[01:03] <knome> file:///usr/share/xubuntu-docs/musicvideophotos.html#music
[01:03] <knome> that's quite a lot of stuff
[01:03] <pleia2> aww exaile
[01:04] <knome> Download Music from the Internet
[01:04] <knome> :|
[01:04] <knome> and then there's some mic troubleshooting
[01:04] <knome> that's just a mess :D
[01:04] <knome> do we need rip/burn audio cd?
[01:05] <pleia2> hrm
[01:05] <knome> rip is exaile too, btw
[01:05] <knome> i don't think we ship anything to rip cd's by default
[01:05] <knome> gmb with a plugin might do it, but i'm not certain
[01:06] <pleia2> I think if we don't do it out of the box, just drop it
[01:06] <knome> mmh
[01:07] <knome> i created a new section, 5 def apps
[01:07] <pleia2> okie
[01:07] <knome> file:///usr/share/xubuntu-docs/office-document-templates.html
[01:07] <knome> huh?
[01:07] <knome> we don't even ship 3/4 of those apps by default
[01:07] <knome> ever shipped
[01:08] <knome> that's out
[01:08] <pleia2> heh
[01:09] <pleia2> I think I'm in "delete everything" mode now, I don't think I can do this for much longer tonight :)
[01:10] <knome> did you just say to*night*? :P
[01:10] <pleia2> this evening? :)
[01:10] <knome> hehe.
[01:10] <knome> maybe we should start writing something then.
[01:10] <pleia2> I do have some blueprint questions before you go sleepies
[01:10] <knome> i'm not going too soon
[01:11] <knome> but go ahead ;)
[01:11] <pleia2> on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-website-improvements we have a couple that I think may be done
[01:11] <pleia2> [xubuntu-website] Cleanup and review website: INPROGRESS
[01:11] <knome> what about /about ? : /
[01:12] <pleia2> aha, wasn't gridcube working on that?
[01:12] <knome> i can't remember he was
[01:12] <knome> but didn't beardygnome write a draft of that ages ago?
[01:12] <pleia2> ah, yes
[01:12] <pleia2> ok, I'll dig up drafts
[01:12] <pleia2> any other pages? I think we got most everything else
[01:13] <knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Website/Drafts
[01:13] <knome> that would be it
[01:13] <pleia2> oh good
[01:13] <knome> hmm, about/ and contribute/development/
[01:13] <pleia2> hrm, I suppose /contribute/translating/ still needs love
[01:13] <knome> those are the standing issues
[01:14] <pleia2> ok
[01:14] <knome> probably that too, though i went through it and gave as much love as i could
[01:14] <knome> i don't know too much about translating, and i don't know if anybody does
[01:14] <pleia2> how about the wiki, any work to be done there? I think we deleted almost everything :)
[01:14] <knome> hehe
[01:14] <knome> well, we have about/ there too
[01:14] <pleia2> hah
[01:15] <pleia2> alright, but I think that's it
[01:15] <pleia2> we should review that /About, merge the two and delete the wiki page
[01:15] <knome> probably yes.
[01:15] <pleia2> then we will be done with the wiki!
[01:16] <knome> yeah, plus the testcases need to be moved
[01:16] <knome> they are still on the wiki
[01:16] <pleia2> yeah, what's the holdup there?
[01:16] <knome> lazyness i suppose
[01:16] <pleia2> hehe
[01:16] <knome> and the lack of "general test intro"
[01:16] <knome> see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-qa-procedures for those things
[01:16] <pleia2> I don't mind doing it, but I don't want to upset QA people by doing the wrong thing :)
[01:17] <knome> we shouldn't copy them to the QA wiki
[01:17] <knome> they've built stuff to integrate all that to the ISO tracker
[01:17] <pleia2> yeah
[01:17] <knome> but that's not so much a wiki issue
[01:17] <knome> i'm okay with marking the wiki stuff DONE once about/ is ok
[01:17] <pleia2> ok
[01:18] <pleia2> wiki AND "community wiki" I think, since it's turned only into a development wiki really
[01:18] <knome> no
[01:18] <pleia2> oh
[01:18] <knome> with community wiki...
[01:18] <knome> i mean the community help wiki
[01:19] <pleia2> oh, help.ubuntu?
[01:19] <knome> there's some xubuntu-categorized stuff
[01:19] <knome> yes
[01:19] <pleia2> I haven't even looked at those
[01:19] <knome> we should go through those and see how current that is
[01:19] <pleia2> ok
[01:19] <knome> and maybe see if there's something else worth categorizing under xubuntu
[01:19] <knome> probably search for all pages that say "xfce" or "xubuntu"
[01:20]  * pleia2 nods
[01:20] <knome> there isn't a lot of the categorized pages
[01:20] <pleia2> ok, going through that will help some with docs in general anyway
[01:20] <knome> yes
[01:20] <knome> now wait a minute
[01:20] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.04/ubuntu-help/index.html
[01:21] <knome> this didn't look like this the last time i checked? :P
[01:21] <pleia2> spiffy huh? :)
[01:21] <knome> oh,hah
[01:21] <knome> that was the official document
[01:21] <knome> huh
[01:21] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingXubuntu
[01:22] <pleia2> I love how their search doesn't search the wiki
[01:22] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryXubuntu
[01:22] <knome> there we go.
[01:22] <knome> that. isn't. much.
[01:22] <knome> that's like so little i would just like to delete that all.
[01:22] <pleia2> hehe
[01:22] <knome> seriously, what is there for us :P
[01:23] <knome> compiz installation guide
[01:23] <knome> :P
[01:23] <knome> but sounds quite general
[01:23] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto#Xubuntu_Prior_to_10.10
[01:23]  * pleia2 facepalm
[01:23] <pleia2> kind of silly
[01:23] <knome> haha
[01:23] <knome> yeah
[01:23] <knome> go delete that.
[01:24] <knome> ;]
[01:24] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XubuntuPanels
[01:24] <knome> that sounds like something we should consider adding to our blog as an article
[01:24] <knome> and tag with FAQ
[01:24] <knome> i suppose that's pretty much the only sensible thing in the community wiki about xubuntu
[01:25] <pleia2> yeah
[01:26] <pleia2> huh, does this work? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager#Xubuntu_10.04.2C_10.10.2C_11.04_and_11.10_12.04
[01:26] <knome> i have no idea
[01:26] <pleia2> suppose I could test it on my laptop
[01:26] <knome> compiz has never been supported any way under xubuntu
[01:26] <pleia2> yeah
[01:27] <knome> people have it working, but i'm not sure if i still want that on an official wiki
[01:27] <knome> well, official/community
[01:27] <pleia2> it covers all the flavors, so I'm inclined to leave it if it works
[01:28] <knome> the whole tutorial is poorly written
[01:28] <knome> "all the flavors"
[01:28] <pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingXubuntu isn't so horrible as a thing, but it needs to be rewritten
[01:28] <knome> what about ubuntu studio? :)
[01:28] <pleia2> DEs? :)
[01:28] <knome> don't we have the installing guide on our website?
[01:28] <pleia2> sort of
[01:28] <knome> merge those
[01:29] <pleia2> k
[01:29] <knome> well, again just an idea
[01:29] <knome> but why maintain two versions
[01:29] <pleia2> so /getxubuntu is the closest we have to an install page
[01:29] <knome> heh.
[01:29] <knome> let me look at the CW page
[01:30] <knome> Installation process
[01:30] <knome> The installation process for Xubuntu is basically the same as for Ubuntu. Please refer to the Ubuntu Installation Guide for more information. 
[01:30] <knome> there isn't much else to it
[01:30] <knome> "Unlike the Windows family of operating systems, an early machine does not require an early version of Ubuntu. If you are installing Xubuntu on an old PC or with early hardware, jump straight to the most recent version. It is not necessary to hunt down an old version of Ubuntu to use your PC. One of the newest (that is, supported) versions is the appropriate one."
[01:31] <knome> not completely true either, if your pc is ancient
[01:31] <pleia2> blah blah blah
[01:31] <knome> (and some willing to use xubuntu has those)
[01:31] <pleia2> yeah
[01:31] <knome> that guide simply isn't very useful imo
[01:31] <knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstalandoXubuntu_ES
[01:31] <knome> heh.
[01:32] <knome> Candidate for Deletion
[01:32] <pleia2> the german one too
[01:32] <knome> yup.
[01:32] <knome> is the community wiki EN only?
[01:32] <pleia2> no, but EN is most maintained (which says a lot about the others :x)
[01:32] <knome> heh
[01:33] <knome> again, i wouldn't mind all the pages deleted
[01:33] <pleia2> yeah, I'll go through them a bit more to see if there are nuggets we can pull out
[01:33] <knome> and if somebody else has gone through the non-EN pages and think they might be removed, maybe delete those at least.
[01:34] <knome> until we can really enable translations on xubuntu.org, we can create some subpages for other-language guides, if those are useful
[01:34] <pleia2> yeah
[01:34] <knome> or translate an essential part of the site
[01:35] <knome> mostly i think the site is quite easy to read if you have the least english skills
[01:35] <pleia2> yeah
[01:36] <pleia2> ok, and I didn't make a marketing blueprint, so while I have todo list items there it's not blueprint critical
[01:36] <knome> :)
[01:36] <knome> what kind of stuff?
[01:36] <pleia2> still have to define our marketing target, and collect info for handouts
[01:37] <knome> what about putting that under strategy document (#1)
[01:37] <knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-review-strategy-document
[01:37] <pleia2> marketing target is different than general target
[01:37] <knome> but isn't that still kind of under the same umbrella?
[01:37] <pleia2> maybe
[01:37] <knome> if you want, we could just create the blueprint too
[01:38] <knome> i'm sure we can find other things we want to list there at a later stage
[01:38] <knome> especially if we get far enough with the handouts and other stuff like that
[01:38] <pleia2> well, I did actually do a fair amount that wasn't blueprint tracked and probably should have been
[01:38] <pleia2> like make and ship stickers, make pins, made a trial t-shirt
[01:39] <knome> you can add those too to the blueprint.
[01:39] <knome> just list them as done and it'll be fine
[01:39] <knome> or if you don't want to list, that's okay too :P
[01:39] <pleia2> yeah, I should, it'll make it look like I did stuff!
[01:39] <knome> heh
[01:40] <knome> yeah, you're currently not even listed!
[01:40] <knome> btw, things under xubuntu-web and those; feel free to change the assignee to yourself if you complete an item
[01:40] <pleia2> :)
[01:40] <pleia2> ok
[01:40] <knome> ideally, i'd like all items to have a person as an assignee when we release 12.10
[01:40] <pleia2> other-q-xubuntu-marketing ?
[01:40] <knome> that way we can actually track who did stuff
[01:40] <knome> yup, that sounds fine :)
[01:41] <knome> we're going to have to poke skaet or somebody else to make it accepted for quantal :)
[01:41] <knome> or wait
[01:41] <knome> can i do that? :o
[01:42] <knome> just ping me once you've actually created the blueprint and i'll look
[01:43] <pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-marketing
[01:43] <knome> ah, it's still just proposed
[01:43] <knome> :)
[01:44] <knome> actually, i have to be the approver
[01:44] <pleia2> oh ok
[01:44] <knome> i
[01:44] <knome> i'll set you as the drafter
[01:47] <pleia2> alright, that's sorted
[01:47] <knome> ...aaand it's linked from the roadmap
[01:48] <pleia2> now I feel better about what I'm supposed to be doing :)
[01:48] <knome> good :)
[01:51] <knome> so, you up for some more docs stuff?
[01:51] <knome> :P
[01:51] <pleia2> oh right, -art
[01:51] <knome> heh, yeah
[01:51] <pleia2> I think I need to take a computer break
[01:51] <knome> how long would that be? :P
[01:51] <pleia2> probably one ST:TOS long
[01:51] <knome> lol
[01:51] <knome> like that was off-computer... :)
[01:52] <knome> have fun :)
[01:52] <pleia2> it is! I walk over there to the couch and watch the tv :)
[01:52] <knome> let's see if i'm *still* online...
[01:52] <pleia2> hehe, ok
[01:52] <pleia2> bbiab
[01:52] <knome> might go for an all-nighter...
[01:53] <knome> hah, looking at the ultrabook monitor after watching these dells for hours, ohhh it's so lousy...
[02:52] <pleia2> knome: still about?
[02:52] <knome> umm :)
[02:52] <knome> yeah!
[02:52] <pleia2> :)
[02:52] <pleia2> I am being picked up for dinner in a little bit, but I have some time
[02:53] <knome> see the docs front
[02:54] <pleia2> "More reading around Xubuntu" is kind of awkward
[02:54] <knome> feel free to change the name
[02:54] <knome> but look at the page first
[02:54] <knome> to grasp an idea what we could say there
[02:54]  * pleia2 nods
[02:55] <pleia2> something like "More about what Xubuntu is built on" or something
[02:55] <knome> quite long :|
[02:55] <knome> just "more reading"
[02:55] <knome> ?
[02:56] <knome> or "what xubuntu *REALLY* is?"
[02:56] <knome> :P
[02:56] <pleia2> hehe
[02:56] <pleia2> "More about Xubuntu"
[02:57] <knome> yeah, but in a way it's not about xubuntu
[02:57] <knome> what if we added say ubuntu (or a link to the derivatives page) or shimmer project there
[02:57] <knome> that's the kind of thing i'm looking after
[02:57] <knome> that's why "around"
[02:58] <knome> hmm
[02:58] <knome> "Learn more about the things behing Xubuntu"
[02:58] <pleia2> hm, maybe "Related projects" ?
[02:58] <knome> behind too
[02:58] <pleia2> "things" :)
[02:58] <knome> heh
[02:58] <pleia2> need a better word
[02:59] <pleia2> Learn more about what makes Xubuntu
[02:59] <knome> mmh
[02:59] <knome> yeah, that could work
[02:59] <pleia2> I don't think I agree that "Add/Remove Programs" is analogous to the software center, Windows doesn't have anything so awesome (there has been talk of a windows app store, but I don't think it really exists yet)
[03:00] <knome> yeah, i think we need to review that
[03:00] <knome> we probably just want more than A = B anyway
[03:00] <pleia2> windows people just clicky clicky around the internet and install random cr..stuff
[03:00] <knome> i just dropped those there
[03:00] <pleia2> yeah
[03:00] <knome> i think those are the ones which we should keep
[03:00] <pleia2> ok
[03:01] <pleia2> this looks good
[03:02] <knome> yeah, it looks better than i hoped about 10 hours ago
[03:03] <knome> every deleted (striked) link should now have a footnote
[03:03] <knome> and pretty much every alive link should have one too
[03:03] <pleia2> great
[03:04] <knome> and every link should point to 12.10/something
[03:06] <knome> the footnotes should desribe how i've moved stuff around
[03:06] <knome> +c
[03:07] <pleia2> yeah, that's good
[03:19] <knome> huho
[03:20] <knome> i'm wondering if i should stay awake or try to sleep some
[03:20] <pleia2> probably sleep :)
[03:31]  * pleia2 dinner
[03:31] <knome> bon appetit
[04:35] <Unit193> On the calendar, it has the meeting listed at 1800 local time, whereas it is at 1100 local time.
[04:35] <smartboyhw> ...
[04:36] <Unit193> Yes?  Is there something we can help you with?
[04:36] <smartboyhw> Nope
[04:44] <Unit193> So the point of that was what?
[08:37] <knome> Unit193, it's 15UTC, whatever the calendar says ;)
[08:38] <Unit193> Yeah, oddly enough, I'm looking at two that say something different (from each other, one agrees with you and I figured somehow the second is goofed...)
[08:39] <knome> :)
[08:39] <knome> well, the meeting's always been 15utc
[08:39] <knome> mail is lagging
[08:39] <knome> bah
[08:59] <Unit193> Yeah, one calendar is showing those events in UTC time, but the rest of the events in local time, weird.
[09:01] <knome> :|
[09:32] <malv> daily reminder: fix for 12.04 branch still has yet to be committed. Fix requires 10 minutes of time to complete. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/xfwm4/+bug/1001936
[09:32] <malv> preserve my sanity, make Xubuntu a viable Ubuntu alternate. Thank you
[09:37] <malv> mr_pouit: btw, this is mostly directed at you
[09:38] <knome> not really.
[09:38] <malv> btw, you should be proud that a great person like me has decided to use XFCE as his default DE
[09:38] <knome> uhm?
[09:38] <malv> you can put that in your testimonials
[09:38] <malv> knome: yes?
[09:39] <knome> we won't.
[09:39] <malv> awww, too bad
[09:39] <malv> knome: rationale for not porting the patch to 12.04?
[09:39] <malv> it applied directly, btw
[09:39] <knome> i didn't speak of that
[09:39] <malv> applies*
[09:39] <knome> i just told we won't add you to the testimonials.
[09:40] <malv> oh, =(
[09:40] <malv> there is a 99% chance I am Linus
[09:40] <knome> there's not; and this is useless
[09:40] <malv> "this" referring to?
[09:41] <knome> the more you try to lie to us and the more you have an arrogant attitude, the less i feel like getting that bug fixed, even if it affects me too.
[09:41] <malv> LOL
[09:41] <knome> this referring to this discussion; it's just pointless
[09:41] <Sysi> was this guy banned from #xubuntu already? he's trolled half of channels I'm in, apparently wants to keep up the series
[09:42] <malv> you guys don't really want to apply a patch that causes spurious window teleportations?
[09:42] <malv> are you serious?
[09:42] <malv> i am trying to help you here
[09:42] <knome> malv, we got the message.
[09:42] <knome> malv, is there something else we can do to help you?
[09:42] <malv> I don't think you have, because I have been banging on this bug ever so slightly the past 3 months
[09:42] <knome> patches/contributions *are* always welcome
[09:43] <malv> if you are going to tell me that the offical XFCE stance is that you will not fix this bug, I will gladly direct my energy elsewhere
[09:43] <knome> we don't have any official xfce stance. we are the xubuntu development team.
[09:43] <malv> the patch is there
[09:43] <malv> you just need to apply it to the 12.04 branch
[09:44] <Sysi> if you want it so badly, grab 4.10 packages
[09:44] <malv> 12.04 is the LTS release. The patch need to be ported to 12.04
[09:44] <malv> I already fixed it on my end
[09:44] <malv> the general point is ensuring that XFCE becomes a viable DE
[09:44] <knome> fine. then is there something else you need help with?
[09:44] <Sysi> so you want to cause unnecessary noise?
[09:44] <malv> oh, jesus christ, I am trying to help you here because I like XFCE
[09:44] <malv> why are you giving me flac
[09:44] <malv> just fix it or dont
[09:45] <knome> you are wasting our time with continuing the discussion; we got the message, we have seen the bug and the patch; we have applied for an exception to get it in .1
[09:45] <Sysi> how's making unnecessary noise "helping"
[09:45] <knome> is there something else you need help with, or can we continue on fixing other bugs and issues in xubuntu?
[09:46] <malv> I am not making unnecessary noise. I have been patient for 3 months.
[09:47] <malv> I administer a research lab and have chosen XFCE as the default DE.
[09:47] <malv> certain researchers in this lab have brought this bug to my attention and I told them I would work to have it fixed
[09:47] <Sysi> linus and head of research lab, awesome.
[09:48] <malv> not a head of a research lab
[09:48] <malv> merely administer it
[09:48] <malv> just tell me to f-off and we're done here
[09:48] <knome> malv, good luck with your choice; we have heard your issue
[09:48] <malv> are you going to fix it?
[09:49] <malv> after I have probably spend at least 4 hours of my time trying to get it fixed?
[09:49] <knome> did you read at all what i wrote earlier? try to read the backscroll.
[09:49] <malv> I have no idea what this means: "we have applied for an exception to get it in .1"
[09:50] <knome> "if possible, we will fix it in .1"
[09:50] <malv> .1 of what?
[09:50] <Sysi> you just said you've been patient for months, now you say you've just ranted for hours
[09:50] <malv> I spent only 4 hours of my time following up on this bug
[09:50] <knome> malv, well, probably don't need an exception for 14.04.1 yet
[09:50] <malv> how come you cannot apply a simple patch to 12.04?
[09:51] <malv> it's an LTS release
[09:51] <knome> malv, we will fix the bug for 12.04.1 if possible
[09:51] <malv> what are the protocols for submitting fixes to LTS releases?
[09:51] <malv> is there a reason for why it takes longer
[09:52] <knome> i have no motivation to keep up the discussion; ubuntu governancy and other LTS based reading can be found in the internet
[09:52] <malv> fyi, that kind of attitude does not lead people to support your software endeavors
[09:52] <malv> I like to think you hope to make XFCE popular
[09:53] <malv> overall it is a good DE
[09:53] <malv> and it is in a very good position to become a mainstream DE
[09:54] <malv> and this bug, I am telling you, shatters the professional facade of XFCE
[09:55] <malv> teleporting windows is a real deal breaker to any serious desktop users
[09:55] <malv> so please fix it... I'm done
[13:27] <Pjotr> Hello, I have a configuration request:
[13:27] <Pjotr> The tooltips in the lower panel of the desktop ("the dock"), are a bit of a nuisance. They obscure big chunks of the panel, and are therefore counterproductive.
[13:27] <Pjotr> It's easy to switch them off, but I think they should be switched off by default. What do you think?
[13:30] <knome> the icons are not 100% self-explanatory for new users
[13:30] <knome> and the tooltips are only visible when hovering
[13:31] <smartboyhw> I agree with knome
[13:31] <smartboyhw> Hi knome! How are you today?
[13:31] <knome> i'm fine
[13:33] <Pjotr> knome: they explain themselves, when you first start an application.... Afterwards, they are just aggravating... Render the lower panel much less useful. 
[13:33] <Pjotr> so all in all, I'd like to see them disabled by default. :-)
[13:33] <Sysi> that's your personal opinion
[13:34] <Sysi> and it's easy to change like you said
[13:34] <knome> i don't use the dock-like panel myself either, but i think it's good for newcomers, and the tooltips definitely aren't unnecessary
[13:34] <smartboyhw> I like the dock
[13:35] <Pjotr> Sysi: for me, yes. But maybe not for beginners.
[13:35] <smartboyhw> Uh oh, emergency maintence on Launchpad tmr
[13:35] <Sysi> clearness is better than minor fixable annoyance
[13:35] <Pjotr> smartboyhw: I like the dock, too. :-)
[13:35] <bluesabre> mr_pouit: I think I fixed the bug you sent in for parole.  Want to test it again?
[13:36] <Sysi> Pjotr: then again, for a new user it's annoying to not have tooltips, if you don't know what are those launchers
[13:37] <Pjotr> Sysi: launch once and you know it. Without tooltips.
[13:37] <knome> i don't think a user should need to launch an application to know what it does
[13:37] <Sysi> Pjotr: tooltip is much nicer, then again, that's just an opinion
[13:38] <Sysi> removing them would benefit more advanced users like you, who can change it anyway
[13:40] <bluesabre> mr_pouit: (In the latest git master that is)
[13:41] <knome> hey bluesabre :)
[13:41] <knome> meeting in 80mins
[13:41] <bluesabre> I'll be here :)
[13:41] <knome> good
[13:41]  * bluesabre should make sure his blueprint items are up-to-date.
[13:42] <knome> that would be great
[13:42] <knome> atm it looks we're lagging behind
[13:43] <knome> but i think the situation is rather good anyway
[13:43] <bluesabre> Yeah
[13:44] <bluesabre> knome, question: If we get parole 0.3.0 into debian and ubuntu,  we can pull in 0.3.0.1 after feature freeze, right?
[13:44] <knome> if 0.3.0.1 is just bugfix release; yes
[13:45] <bluesabre> Good deal
[13:45] <knome> we need to specify every bug that 0.3.0.1 fixes though, at least in some level
[13:45] <bluesabre> It seems like most of the problems are only seen on arch, things are working great in xubuntu for parole
[13:46] <bluesabre> Sure thing.  I'll be sure to address that in the release notes
[13:46] <knome> great
[13:47] <knome> i'm sure you know but FF is aug 23, not a long time to get the pkg to debian and ubuntu :)
[13:47] <bluesabre> Yeah
[13:47] <bluesabre> I'm going to be bugging mr_pouit alot between now and then
[13:47] <knome> heh
[13:47] <knome> i suppose micahg can be of help too, if he has time
[14:05] <knome> micahg or mr_pouit, you around?
[14:07] <knome> Xubuntu community meeting in about an hour at #xubuntu-devel. Everybody welcome! Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[14:12] <smartboyhw> knome: I'll see if I can come
[14:12] <knome> ok
[14:26] <knome> out for throwing the garbage and a quick walk
[14:26] <smartboyhw> ...
[14:26] <knome> be back in <30
[14:47] <knome> i'm back
[14:49] <elfy> I'll put the kettle on then
[14:49] <knome> heh :)
[14:49]  * knome drinks coke
[14:49]  * elfy doesn't 
[14:49] <knome> walked to the store and went to buy a bottle :P
[14:50] <elfy> :)
[14:50] <knome> the thing is, i should really eat something today too
[14:51] <knome> pleia2, good morning sunshine
[14:51] <smartboyhw> Waiting for meeting now
[14:52] <GridCube> ETA to meeting?
[14:52] <knome> 10ish minutes
[14:52] <GridCube> :)
[14:52] <smartboyhw> 8 minutes here
[14:53] <GridCube> can we have an announcement on our media outlets? (twitter, g+, etc)
[14:54] <knome> i can do twitter, but not the rest
[14:54] <smartboyhw> Where's the twitter site
[14:54] <knome> https://twitter.com/Xubuntu
[14:55] <knome> GridCube, twitter done
[14:56] <smartboyhw> Thanks
[14:56] <GridCube> :D
[14:57] <knome> at least pleia2 said she's attending, so let's wait for people to show up
[14:57]  * pleia2 yawns and puts on some coffee
[14:57] <knome> hello! :)
[14:58]  * smartboyhw waves at everybody
[14:59] <bluesabre> T-1?
[14:59] <knome> apparently i like to do things in a rush. cooking some tortellinis now ;)
[14:59] <smartboyhw> T-1:)
[15:00] <knome> micahg, mr_pouit: either of you around?
[15:01] <knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
[15:01] <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug 15 15:01:21 2012 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:01] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:01] <knome> #chair pleia2 
[15:01] <meetingology> Current chairs: knome pleia2
[15:01] <GridCube> o/
[15:01] <knome> astraljava, you around?
[15:01] <astraljava> Yes, just booted.
[15:01] <knome> great! i'll chair you
[15:01] <knome> #chair astraljava 
[15:01] <meetingology> Current chairs: astraljava knome pleia2
[15:02] <knome> (i'll be the chair, but just in case...)
[15:02] <knome> #topic Items carried on
[15:02] <knome> #subtopic Open action items from previous meeting
[15:02] <knome> let's see
[15:02] <knome> #nick xubuntu-team
[15:03] <knome> #action xubuntu-team to investigate adding a screenlocker
[15:03] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to investigate adding a screenlocker
[15:03] <knome> has anybody had time to look at that?
[15:03] <astraljava> Not me.
[15:03] <pleia2> yeah, hang on
[15:03] <knome> ok sure :)
[15:04] <pleia2> ochosi was working on that, grabbing notes :)
[15:04] <knome> remember you can use #info and #action :)
[15:05] <pleia2> #info 16:37 < ochosi> knome, mr_pouit: let me add this to the "do away with xscreensaver, instead just use a lock-thingy", this is how far lightdm is in that respect: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-lock-screen
[15:05] <pleia2> #info < ochosi> i.e. not very far. i've been looking out for alternatives, and to be honest, none of them is working extra-smooth or great-looking
[15:05] <pleia2> #info I asked if there were others to try < ochosi> xlockmore, xlockmore-gl, xtrlock, i3lock
[15:06] <knome> lightdm-lock doesn't look good at all :|
[15:06] <knome> should we do some testing on those options then?
[15:06] <pleia2> yeah, I'd say so
[15:06] <knome> i imagine we wanted just a black screen, so no need for screensaver features
[15:06] <knome> or anything else fancy!
[15:06] <pleia2> #info < pleia2> is keeping xscreensaver and just defaulting to blank xscreensaver+screen lock an option?
[15:07] <astraljava> Well, sure can, but if they don't look/work very well, I don't see it a wise replacement for xscreensaver.
[15:07] <smartboyhw> knome: Sorry to interrupt, I want a screensaver on my lock screen
[15:07] <pleia2> #info < ochosi> sure < pleia2> I think that may be as close as we can get until lightdm gets sorted
[15:07] <knome> smartboyhw, you are free to install gnome-screensaver or so
[15:07] <Sysi> what's problem with xscreensaver?
[15:07] <pleia2> that's where things pretty much ended up
[15:07] <knome> keeping xscreensaver is probably the wisest choice, if that's doable
[15:08] <smartboyhw> I agree. Black screen on lock...:(
[15:08] <knome> astraljava, would you be able to be the assignee on that?
[15:08] <astraljava> I suppose, why not.
[15:08] <knome> (xss because of no regressions at least, and no testing other apps)
[15:08] <knome> great!
[15:08] <GridCube> xscreensaver with black screen
[15:08] <knome> do we need to vote on this or should we vote?
[15:08] <knome> eh
[15:08] <knome> do we agree or should we vote, i mean
[15:09] <GridCube> vote
[15:09] <astraljava> Let's provide better results from testing before we vote.
[15:09] <smartboyhw> Count me in for the testing, astraljava!
[15:09] <knome> astraljava, can you explain a bit further? :)
[15:09] <pleia2> will someone take an action item to test xlockmore, xlockmore-gl, xtrlock, i3lock ?
[15:10] <astraljava> Was just thinking that maybe I should provide a more detailed report, or is that from ochosi enough?
[15:10] <knome> didn't we just decide to keep with xscreensaver and just disable screensavers by default?
[15:10] <knome> i thought the others weren't as appealing
[15:10] <astraljava> Ahh... sorry, I'm reading it wrong, then.
[15:10] <astraljava> Ok, just vote.
[15:11] <knome> and from the testing point of view, xss would be easiest, because it would be just a changed setting
[15:11] <knome> so, what are we voting then?
[15:11] <knome> option 1) is xss with black screen
[15:11] <knome> does anybody disagree with that, and with what option?
[15:12] <astraljava> Going once...
[15:12] <mr_pouit> (xss should already use a blank screen by default)
[15:12] <bluesabre> xss with black screen is good for me if we enable monitor power management
[15:12] <mr_pouit> (or at least, we ship a config file for that, maybe it doesn't work)
[15:12] <knome> okay, it's probably working, as i haven't seen any screensaver on my laptop
[15:12] <bluesabre> (Nothing quite like a bright black screen)
[15:13] <Sysi> is xss so big it's worth removing, if there aren't very good alternatives
[15:13] <pleia2> Sysi: just feels a bit overkill to have a screensaver app just to do screen locking :)
[15:13] <pleia2> when screen locking programs exist... but if they aren't so good...
[15:13] <knome> what's xss size then?
[15:13] <Sysi> it also allows user swithiching and that's good functionality
[15:14] <pleia2> I think that's why we were hoping lightdm's implementation would be done
[15:14] <knome> the size?
[15:15] <pleia2> knome: features like user switching, presumably lightdm locking does it too since it's the session manager :)
[15:15] <astraljava> apt-cache show xscreensaver: <snip> Size: 273538
[15:15] <knome> mmh. unfortunately that's not available yet, and tbh, i don't have high hopes for even R
[15:15] <knome> astraljava, what's that in -h ? :P
[15:16] <astraljava> bah
[15:16] <knome> 273KB?
[15:17] <knome> i think that's doable.
[15:17] <knome> does anybody have any other option we should vote about?
[15:17] <mr_pouit> screen locking/user switching is already in lightdm, iirc I played a bit with it (gtk-greeter lacks a special ui for that though)
[15:17] <Sysi> screen locker apps are a bit confusing, though i3lock would let to set image telling to type password to unlock
[15:18] <knome> Sysi, i imagine an image is not translatable :|
[15:18] <Sysi> yeah
[15:18] <knome> if there is no other options, let's move forward
[15:18] <knome> no action needs to be taken, yay
[15:19] <Sysi> otherly you just get bell beeps and wonder what's happening, if you don't figure out to type passwd and press enter
[15:19] <knome> yeah :)
[15:19] <knome> #action xubuntu-team to investigate default settings for monitor power management 
[15:19] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to investigate default settings for monitor power management
[15:19] <knome> anybody worked on that?
[15:19] <GridCube> nope
[15:19] <astraljava> Me neither.
[15:20] <knome> anybody willing to be the assignee instead of lousily leaving it to xubuntu-team?
[15:20] <GridCube> i would not know what to do with that
[15:20] <pleia2> are there specific complaints about our current settings?
[15:21] <knome> tbh, i can't remember when this action item is added
[15:21] <knome> or why
[15:21] <GridCube> a setting i know is bothersome with monitor power management is that parole doesnt stop it while a movie is played on fullscreen so it shuts down in the middle of the play
[15:21] <knome> right
[15:21] <knome> so maybe that's a more precise description
[15:21] <pleia2> I think that's a bug rather than something to do with default settings
[15:21] <astraljava> That's a parole bug, IMHO.
[15:21]  * bluesabre hides
[15:21] <knome> GridCube, is that with parole, vlc, both, or others?
[15:21] <GridCube> ok, i just said thats the only thing i can think about that aspect
[15:22] <mr_pouit> I uploaded parole 0.3.0 today to quantal, maybe that's fixed, I didn't retest that
[15:22] <GridCube> i dont remember knome 
[15:22] <knome> mr_pouit, \o/
[15:22]  * astraljava glares at bluesabre
[15:22] <bluesabre> It's not fixed just yet
[15:22] <GridCube> i disabled it because it bothered me too mcuh
[15:22] <knome> ok
[15:22] <mr_pouit> eh
[15:22] <bluesabre> Hopefully parole 0.3.0.1
[15:22] <knome> bluesabre, mr_pouit, well, bugfix release then. i'll do the FFe's
[15:22] <knome> (unless it lands before FF)
[15:23] <bluesabre> I'll get busy on that
[15:23] <knome> great!
[15:23] <knome> #action bluesabre fixes Parole letting screen to go black while in fullscreen mode and fixes it for 0.3.0.1
[15:23] <meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre fixes Parole letting screen to go black while in fullscreen mode and fixes it for 0.3.0.1
[15:24] <knome> #subtopic Enable or disable compositor by default?
[15:24] <astraljava> Sorry, no results yet.
[15:24] <knome> we've had this in at least two meetings, should we just vote?
[15:24] <knome> i think this is more about preferences than actual problems with many users
[15:24] <knome> we should probably look at how xfce/xfwm is started on the live CD, because we have the grey areas there
[15:25] <astraljava> True. I should write on our -users ML and ask for usage stats.
[15:25] <bluesabre> Wasn't there a consideration to just disable it in the live cd?
[15:25] <knome> or if possible, disable compositor on the "install xubuntu without testing" -mode
[15:25] <Sysi> compositing causes tearing in videos and games
[15:25] <knome> bluesabre, that too.
[15:25] <GridCube> disable
[15:25] <GridCube> i been having some problems with composition lately too, dragged windows keep them selfs in transparent mode no matter what from time to time, i have not find a way to replicate it
[15:26] <knome> if we disable compositing by default, we have to rethink the bottom dock-like panel
[15:26] <bluesabre> ochosi uses a nice background image in his greybird release image
[15:26] <knome> i think disabling it by default might bring us more headache than keeping with it, and trying to fix what it breaks now
[15:26] <knome> bluesabre, i think that bg image works, but it's not as good as the translucent panel, i think
[15:27] <bluesabre> Yeah
[15:27] <knome> astraljava, would either of you look into disabling compositor on live CD?
[15:27] <astraljava> Right, sure.
[15:28] <knome> #Action astraljava to look into disabling compositor on live CD
[15:28] <meetingology> ACTION: astraljava to look into disabling compositor on live CD
[15:28] <knome> so let's wait until at least the next meeting before we vote
[15:28] <knome> investigate, then act! :)
[15:28] <bluesabre> Why not act, then investigate?  :P
[15:28] <knome> #subtopic Blueprint: Add more launchers to Settings Manager
[15:29] <knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps
[15:29] <knome> i think we're at voting stage with this blueprint
[15:29] <knome> please look through the specification wikipage and shout out loud if you think something in that list should *NOT* be listed under the settings manager
[15:30] <knome> was it Q or R when jockey is going under software-properties?
[15:30] <elfy> it is now 
[15:30] <knome> ok, so that's an obsolete item
[15:31] <bluesabre> I agree with ochosi's not on the bottom of removing the settings submenu
[15:31] <astraljava> What's the status of blueman?
[15:31] <knome> micahg, ?
[15:32] <knome> bluesabre, wait, do you mean you think the submenu should be removed or not? :)
[15:32] <bluesabre> submenu should go away, leave a shortcut for the Settings Manager
[15:32] <knome> i'm not 100% sure about compizconfig-settings-manager
[15:32] <knome> is ubuntuone working with xfce/xubuntu?
[15:32] <bluesabre> Yeah, ubuntuone works
[15:33] <knome> ok, then ok to keep that too
[15:33] <knome> anybody else thinks something shouldn't be added to the settings manager?
[15:34] <knome> opinions on compiz-settings-manager?
[15:34] <GridCube> :( so much lag
[15:34] <GridCube> i like how it looks :)
[15:34] <GridCube> its personal? if it is and it brings options then it should go there
[15:35] <Sysi> compiz is not any *buntu really, but if *all* settings are there..
[15:35] <knome> well, software-sources isn't personal either
[15:35] <elfy> knome: I don't see the need to have it listed - it's not supported so why leave a link for it 
[15:35] <knome> i'm thinking the same as elfy
[15:35] <knome> but if somebody installs compiz, is that link visible at all?
[15:36] <GridCube> it should
[15:36] <elfy> it used to leave a menu item in system (in gnome) 
[15:36] <GridCube> many, many, many people like compiz
[15:36] <knome> of course it should, but if we drop the settings-submenu and don't include it in settings manager, *will* it be visible?
[15:36] <knome> anybody knows?
[15:36]  * GridCube doesnt know
[15:36] <elfy> you want me to check
[15:37] <knome> elfy, if you can
[15:37] <knome> i'm imagining it won't
[15:37] <elfy> 2 secs
[15:37] <Sysi> shouldn't it (re)create that submenu, if we remove items from it instead of just hiding it
[15:38] <knome> Sysi, yes, if we do it like that, but to remove items from that is much harder than just dropping the menu
[15:38] <knome> and i don't know how alacarte handles those "don't lists"
[15:38] <elfy> it dropped it into the settings menu
[15:38] <knome> elfy, but you didn't *remove* the settings menu ?:)
[15:39] <knome> ohai micahg! :)
[15:39] <elfy> didn't do anything knome - the setup here is vanilla as far as menu's goes 
[15:40] <knome> ah yes, that's the issue; we're thinking of changing the menus
[15:40] <micahg> blueman SRU should make it into 12.04.1
[15:40] <knome> and we're keeping blueman? :)
[15:40] <micahg> do we have a replacement?
[15:41] <knome> didn't you talk about gnome-bluetooth or so? but no, not really
[15:41] <elfy> here I have Settings Manager and a whole list of seperate settings listed - a lot of duplicates
[15:41] <micahg> gnome-bluetooth uses gnome-control-center, do you want that?
[15:41] <knome> micahg, no.
[15:42] <knome> so, should we vote of keeping or dropping the compiz item first?
[15:42] <knome> then let's see if that's technically possible
[15:42] <knome> #vote Add (+1) or don't add (-1) compizconfig-settings-manager to the Xfce settings manager
[15:42] <meetingology> Please vote on: Add (+1) or don't add (-1) compizconfig-settings-manager to the Xfce settings manager
[15:42] <meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
[15:42] <knome> -1
[15:42] <meetingology> -1 received from knome
[15:42] <elfy> knome: in my opinion there should be no duplicates in the settings list 
[15:42] <elfy> -1
[15:42] <meetingology> -1 received from elfy
[15:42] <astraljava> +0
[15:42] <meetingology> +0 received from astraljava
[15:42] <GridCube> 0
[15:42] <meetingology> 0 received from GridCube
[15:43] <GridCube> or is it
[15:43] <GridCube> +0
[15:43] <meetingology> +0 received from GridCube
[15:43] <knome> either one works
[15:43] <knome> even -0 does
[15:43] <GridCube> mmkay
[15:43] <knome> or +-0 iirc...
[15:43] <knome> :P
[15:43] <pleia2> +0
[15:43] <meetingology> +0 received from pleia2
[15:44] <bluesabre> -1
[15:44] <meetingology> -1 received from bluesabre
[15:44] <knome> others?
[15:44] <DominicLow> -1
[15:44] <meetingology> -1 received from DominicLow
[15:44] <knome> #endvote
[15:44] <meetingology> Voting ended on: Add (+1) or don't add (-1) compizconfig-settings-manager to the Xfce settings manager
[15:44] <meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:4 Abstentions:3
[15:44] <meetingology> Motion denied
[15:45]  * micahg would -1 that too :)
[15:45] <knome> does anybody think we should vote on other items on the list?
[15:45] <knome> referring to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps
[15:45] <astraljava> I didn't see any that made me go mad.
[15:45] <Sysi> what if there's something else that needs settings-submenu
[15:46] <knome> Sysi, we'll just sort that out
[15:46] <knome> maybe we could then have settings manager, and if items outside that should go under settings menu, that too
[15:46] <knome> i imagine that's possible
[15:46] <elfy> I'm a bit confused as to why things are in setting manager AND the list in that settings menu
[15:46] <knome> so, who's willing to be the assignee to do this change? (make sure the items appear at settings manager?)
[15:47] <knome> elfy, that can be taken care of too, i think
[15:47] <GridCube> cant there be a "others" and all other goes there
[15:47] <GridCube> ?
[15:47] <knome> GridCube, items need to be specifically added to the settings manager, they don't appear there automatically
[15:47] <Sysi> having compiz in settings manager doesn't seem directly bad, except being like gnome/unity and not really supported
[15:48] <GridCube> oh, i though it was like the items in the configuration submenu of the start menu
[15:48] <GridCube> nevermind me then
[15:48] <elfy> I feel the same about wine as I do compiz 
[15:48] <knome> elfy, wine is fine; it's not specifically supported, but it's not quite unsupported either
[15:49] <knome> assignee for adding the items to settings manager??
[15:49] <knome> assigning to -team then for now
[15:50] <knome> #action xubuntu-team to add launchers specified in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps to xfce settings manager
[15:50] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to add launchers specified in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps to xfce settings manager
[15:50] <knome> #action xubuntu-team to make sure other "settings" launchers will show up if needed
[15:50] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to make sure other "settings" launchers will show up if needed
[15:50] <knome> so next item!
[15:50] <knome> #subtopic Encryption required for testing on milestones?
[15:51] <knome> astraljava, i think this is yours?
[15:51] <knome> or at least concerns your stuf
[15:51] <knome> +f
[15:51] <astraljava> Yes, probably. Postpone to the next one, please.
[15:51] <astraljava> I'll look into it during this coming weekend.
[15:51] <knome> ok :)
[15:52] <knome> #subtopic Testcases feedback
[15:52] <knome> this? :)
[15:52] <astraljava> Haven't received any, but ISO tracker querying is on my TO-DO also for this coming weekend.
[15:53] <knome> we should call for testing
[15:53] <knome> will you do that on the weekend?
[15:53] <astraljava> I did, for precise point release.
[15:53] <astraljava> Didn't I?
[15:53] <knome> do we have a lot of tests?
[15:53] <elfy> I think so 
[15:53] <bluesabre> I saw it
[15:53] <knome> yes, you did
[15:53] <astraljava> I'll do another for Beta-1.
[15:54] <knome> i looked into the ISO tracker today, and saw one test
[15:54] <knome> is that our daily average? :/
[15:54] <astraljava> Yeah, but I need to figure out the scripts for querying the data from all previous builds.
[15:54] <knome> ok
[15:54] <astraljava> We aren't getting many tests for dailies.
[15:54] <knome> we could look together at updating the testcases in the tracker.
[15:54] <astraljava> But that's normaly.
[15:54] <astraljava> -y
[15:54] <knome> (re: the mail today about it)
[15:54] <elfy> I had to slow down I'm afraid 
[15:55] <astraljava> For milestones, we get more.
[15:55] <knome> ok, that's good at least
[15:55] <knome> anyway, next topic?
[15:55] <GridCube> im trying to fetch the latest images but my internets wheren cooperative
[15:55] <GridCube> knome, webcam applications
[15:55] <knome> there's the screenlocker thing again, i'll skip that
[15:56] <knome> GridCube, let's get to that once we've gone through the other items on the agenda
[15:56] <GridCube> :) kay
[15:56] <knome> #subtopic Look at how far astraljava got with xfce4-display dialog
[15:56] <knome> astraljava, i assume postpone?
[15:57] <astraljava> Yes, but I'll try to get it in before FF, so imagine within a week or so.
[15:57]  * knome tries to imagine like john lennon
[15:57] <astraljava> I'll announce on #-devel.
[15:57] <astraljava> Err... here, it seems.
[15:57] <knome> yes :)
[15:57]  * astraljava always forgets these meetings aren't on #-meeting.
[15:58] <knome> (oh how i love that fact! no need to get out of way)
[15:58] <knome> anyway, let's move forward
[15:58] <knome> #topic Team updates
[15:58] <knome> #subtopic Development
[15:58] <knome> micahg, mr_pouit, astraljava, bluesabre 
[15:59] <knome> (this is for the reports too, so feel free repeat yourself
[15:59] <knome> (again, #info please!)
[15:59] <bluesabre> #info parole 0.3.0 released, working on fixes for 0.3.0.1 to be released soon
[15:59] <micahg> #info blueman SRU in precise-proposed thanks to cyphermox, should make 12.04.1
[16:00] <bluesabre> #info Working with kalikiana to release the updated/revamped catfish before FF
[16:00] <astraljava> #info xfce4-display should get in by FF, so that updates can be done as bugfixes
[16:00] <knome> #info trying to push bug #1001936 to 12.04.1 (right now)
[16:00] <knome> err, push the fix of course, not the bug.
[16:01] <bluesabre> #info xubuntu-shortcuts-overlay probably won't make it for Q, while its mostly done, I've just not so much time with it.  And with the compositor up in the air, it might not be an option either
[16:01] <knome> bluesabre, have you set those items to POSTPONED? :)
[16:01] <bluesabre> currently, its marked as INPROGRESS because I had some hope for it
[16:01] <knome> ok, fair enough
[16:01] <bluesabre> Things might change, but hard to say
[16:02] <knome> yeah, sure
[16:02] <knome> #subtopic Quality Assurance
[16:02] <knome> astraljava, do you have some quick news how .1 testing went?
[16:02] <astraljava> No, not yet. It's still going, though.
[16:03] <knome> oki
[16:03] <knome> anything else?
[16:03] <astraljava> Well, haven't gotten very good results with the calls for testings. I'll keep trying, though.
[16:04] <knome> ok, let's try to get more publicity for testing again
[16:04] <astraljava> Also, just recently the testcase admin panel was opened, but I haven't had a chance to look at it, yet.
[16:04] <knome> #action xubuntu-team to try to get more publicity for testing ...agin
[16:04] <meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-team to try to get more publicity for testing ...agin
[16:04] <astraljava> Mean to, during this weekend.
[16:04] <knome> yes, same here
[16:04] <astraljava> (it's a busy one, daymn...)
[16:04] <knome> #subtopic Marketing, Promotion and Artwork
[16:04] <knome> pleia2, you're up!
[16:05] <pleia2> #info so we ended up making a Marketing blueprint afterall
[16:05] <pleia2> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-marketing
[16:05] <pleia2> #info since our last meeting, I did a trial order of a black t-shirt from zazzle, but the printing was slightly off so I don't think we'll go with them: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/7575566200/
[16:06] <pleia2> (they offered a refund, but I don't want to rely upon them)
[16:06] <bluesabre> Sad shirt
[16:06] <pleia2> #info I also ordered some pins which turned out nice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/7640334336/
[16:06] <pleia2> (I'll bring some to UDS :))
[16:07] <knome> yes, i believe we should have the best providers for our marketing stuff, because it's not going to be out in millions
[16:07] <knome> pleia2, is the white border intentional?
[16:07] <knome> it looks surprisingly good, but just wondering
[16:07] <pleia2> knome: no, and if you look at the image it's only around about half the circle :\
[16:07] <pleia2> we might want to just print on white shirts tbh
[16:08] <knome> hmmh. bigger bleed area next time then
[16:08] <knome> what's the issue with printing on black?
[16:08] <pleia2> the blue ended up a bit darker than I wanted on black too
[16:08] <knome> if the manufacturer is good enough, they can solve it out
[16:08] <pleia2> the whole shirt is just dark
[16:08] <knome> it's too late, but maybe we should've ordered both white and black to see the differences
[16:09] <pleia2> I plan on doing some more orders, so in the future :)
[16:09] <knome> ok, great
[16:09] <knome> anything else on this stuff?
[16:09] <pleia2> that's pretty much it for marketing
[16:09] <knome> before we move to docs...
[16:09] <knome> #subtopic Documentation
[16:09] <knome> #info the documentation rewrite has seriously begun!
[16:09] <knome> #link http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10
[16:10] <knome> #action knome and pleia2 to get more publicity to docs rewrite to get those who promised to help to start working
[16:10] <meetingology> ACTION: knome and pleia2 to get more publicity to docs rewrite to get those who promised to help to start working
[16:10] <bluesabre> I should probably help more with that
[16:11] <knome> that's fine
[16:11] <knome> #info we expect good progress on the next week or two to be able to ship the new documentation for Q
[16:12] <knome> #subtopic General updates
[16:12] <knome> something else?
[16:12] <knome> done something worth mentioning?
[16:12] <pleia2> yeah website
[16:12] <knome> oh,
[16:12] <knome> that was in the same block as marketing
[16:12] <knome> but go ahead
[16:13] <pleia2> so we need these merged: http://xubuntu.org/about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/About https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Website/Drafts
[16:13] <pleia2> #info so we need these merged: http://xubuntu.org/about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/About https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Website/Drafts
[16:13] <pleia2> I'm going to work on it, I'll nudge people in channel for review
[16:13] <GridCube> o/
[16:13] <pleia2> that'll knock out two blueprint items once it's done
[16:13] <knome> i'll be glad to help with that
[16:13] <knome> GridCube, yeah?
[16:13] <pleia2> (well, 1 1/2 :))
[16:13] <GridCube> the webcam application thingy
[16:14] <knome> GridCube, yes, it's coming
[16:14] <knome> we're still not at the end of our agenda :P
[16:14] <GridCube> C:
[16:14] <knome> follow at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[16:14] <pleia2> #info We're also reviewing: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryXubuntu most of it is junk :\
[16:14] <knome> (we're now at team updates, general)
[16:14] <GridCube> i though we were on others
[16:14] <GridCube> :P
[16:14] <knome> GridCube, the #topics and #subtopics give a good hint where we are progressing
[16:15] <knome> GridCube, not always 100% accurate but...
[16:15] <GridCube> (:
[16:15] <pleia2> that's it for website stuffs
[16:15] <knome> oki
[16:15] <knome> i suppose that's it for the updates
[16:15] <knome> #topic Announcements
[16:15] <knome> #info UDS sponsorship requests should be sent by 17th of Aug; that's in two days! if you want to attend but need sponsoring, please leave your application now
[16:17] <knome> #topic New an emerging items
[16:17] <knome> #subtopic Strategy Document review
[16:17] <knome> so!
[16:18] <knome> #link http://strategydoc.knome.fi/
[16:18] <knome> is there anything in the *contents* that people will want to have vote before approving and releasing to public?
[16:19] <pleia2> I think I nitpicked it to death enough :)
[16:19] <knome> i have a few grammar fix mails and things like that to go through at least before publishing, but are we satisfied with the content?
[16:19] <knome> or, is there something we should remove completely, or add to the document?
[16:19] <bluesabre> Somehow, I've never seen this.  I'll review it today
[16:20] <astraljava> I haven't looked at it in ages, but I recall enough from our last discussion. If it hasn't changed fundamentally since that, I'm fine with it. :)
[16:20] <knome> ok
[16:20] <knome> #info One more week for reviewing; after that, the SD will be published as is if no arguments against are raised in the ML or in the meeting next week
[16:21] <knome> #action knome will send one more call to review the new, proposed SD
[16:21] <meetingology> ACTION: knome will send one more call to review the new, proposed SD
[16:21] <bluesabre> the Introduction looks nicely improved :)
[16:22] <knome> anybody want to raise issues now? :P
[16:22] <knome> ok, good :P
[16:22] <knome> #subtopic Webcam application in Q
[16:22] <knome> GridCube, you're up!
[16:22] <GridCube> :P cheese its the only webcam application thats worth mentioning, all others that i've found lack many features (not that cheese has too many) or are qt dependable, if there are other applications out there i havent find them, also its supposed that pidgin can do webcam chats, but i havent been able to figure out how to do that
[16:22] <knome> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/WebcamApplication
[16:23] <knome> ok, so do we need more information, or shall we jump to voting if we want a webcam app by default?
[16:23] <micahg> we have no space on the ISOs
[16:23] <GridCube> so i think we should add cheese to the defaults
[16:23] <GridCube> oh
[16:23] <knome> i think this is quite straightforward; there is only one viable choice anyway
[16:23] <knome> micahg, how much are we oversized, or are we?
[16:23] <GridCube> well nvm then its not that important, it would just be nice
[16:24] <knome> what's the thing that takes a shot of you when you install xubuntu?
[16:24] <knome> that uses webcam
[16:24] <micahg> on the live images 27/45MB i386/amd64
[16:24] <knome> micahg, ugh. what's the hopes of getting under? :P
[16:24] <astraljava> micahg: Any chance we could utilize xz compression on more packages?
[16:24] <micahg> without dropping anything?  pretty slim
[16:25] <knome> ouch and ouch
[16:25] <micahg> astraljava: that won't help the live images where most of the packages are in squashfs
[16:25] <astraljava> Right, silly me.
[16:25] <knome> should we vote whether to have a webcam app by default IF we'd have space? :P
[16:26] <GridCube> sure
[16:26] <GridCube> again its not vital, just would be nice
[16:26] <knome> micahg, isn't there really anything to do? it's still that python2 and gimp dragging us over?
[16:26] <micahg> and I'm not sure we can go with cheese unless we have a lot of space as it'll pull in clutter and a whole bunch of GNOME with it
[16:26] <knome> ah :|
[16:26] <knome> that too
[16:26] <GridCube> micahg, it does?
[16:27] <micahg> yeah, after 3.0 it needs clutter which is why Ubuntu stuck with 3.0 for precise
[16:27] <GridCube> i think that with --no-install-recommends its pretty small
[16:27] <GridCube> oh
[16:27] <knome> micahg, when would you have time to look at this oversized-issue in the near future?
[16:27] <micahg> oh, maybe not, but it was in universe, so they didn't care
[16:27] <knome> micahg, i mean, at the issue itself, and also discuss about our strategy to cope with it
[16:28] <micahg> I think I can drop webkit1.0 (needs a little porting in gimp), that'll give us ~7MB, not so sure about the rest
[16:28] <knome> #info ATM we don't have size for a webcam app, postponed until at least theoretically possible
[16:28] <micahg> would be much easier if we had a GTK3 DE :)
[16:28] <GridCube> knome, i know ochosi send a patch to gmb to fix it from being on random by default, but thats pretty much where all stoped with it
[16:28] <knome> yeah, but not going to happen very soon
[16:29] <bluesabre> If we are doing xss with a blank screen, do we get some space back by not shipping any screensavers?
[16:29] <micahg> we can see about porting stuff to python3, that would be another ~10MB
[16:29] <knome> or is xss-data a *depend* ?
[16:29] <knome> #subtopic ISO size issues
[16:29] <GridCube> kk
[16:30] <knome> #info dropping webkit1.0 (port some in gimp) gives about 7MB
[16:30]  * GridCube idea, drop gimp
[16:30] <knome> #info port stuff to python3, another ~10MB
[16:30] <knome> #info drop xscreensaver screensavers?
[16:31] <GridCube> if we use black screen by default, yeah
[16:31] <GridCube> or leave the one that displays pictures
[16:31] <knome> GridCube, that's been raised before, but that's the last resort
[16:31] <knome> that doesn't work as expected though
[16:31] <knome> and i don't think we can cherry-pick, they're probably in one big package
[16:32] <knome> #info drop xscreensavers, probably <1MB
[16:33] <knome> #info correction: drop xscreensavers, probably ~4MB
[16:33] <knome> that would be 20ish
[16:33] <bluesabre> sudo apt-get remove xscreensaver-gl
[16:33] <bluesabre> The following packages will be REMOVED:
[16:33] <bluesabre>   xscreensaver-gl
[16:33] <bluesabre> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
[16:33] <bluesabre> After this operation, 1,127 kB disk space will be freed.
[16:33] <GridCube> !info xscreensaver-data
[16:33] <knome> -gl-extra?
[16:33] <knome> -data
[16:33] <knome> -data-extra ?
[16:34] <GridCube> is optional it says
[16:34] <micahg> well, I still have to see about what increased all the ISOs 40MB between precise and quantal (probably core stuff we can't drop)
[16:34] <knome> yes, but we might be pulling that too
[16:34] <knome> micahg, so, you have any idea when we could sit down with this?
[16:35] <pleia2> I don't have -data-extra installed so at least that I think is no-default
[16:35] <knome> k
[16:35] <knome> #subtopic Schedule next meeting
[16:36] <GridCube> (gmb?)
[16:36] <micahg> knome: no, I don't have much time for the next week and a half
[16:36] <knome> micahg, gah :(
[16:36] <knome> micahg, i'll try to get a hold of mr_pouit then
[16:36] <knome> GridCube, what about that?
[16:36] <knome> GridCube, are we still keeping with the blueprint or not?
[16:36] <micahg> knome: I can pastebin the diff though if you'd like to pour over it
[16:36] <knome> micahg, i can, if you think that might help
[16:37] <pleia2> beta1 on sept 6th, maybe meeting in 2 weeks?
[16:37] <GridCube> knome, as we agreed i would not work on it anymore because im not objective enough, but no one else kept the work
[16:37] <GridCube> i still think in at least needs some changes in playback modes
[16:38] <micahg> knome: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1149097/ , that was from the 2012-08-11 daily against precise final I believe
[16:38] <micahg> alternate that is
[16:38] <knome> i think it's something you should really go through with ochosi, because he understands gmb best and is able to make changes too
[16:38] <knome> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting is on 22th of August at 15UTC on #xubuntu-evel
[16:38] <GridCube> ochosi fixed the default random setting, thats good, but we at least need a few more changes if we are going to keep using it
[16:38] <knome> devel too.
[16:38] <GridCube> :)
[16:39] <knome> GridCube, if we're not changing either, we're going to use it even without those changes
[16:39] <knome> #endmeeting
[16:39] <meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug 15 16:39:18 2012 UTC.  
[16:39] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-08-15-15.01.moin.txt
[16:39] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-08-15-15.01.html
[16:39] <knome> thanks everybody!
[16:39] <pleia2> phew :)
[16:39] <knome> yeah
[16:39] <GridCube> knome, :) ofcourse
[16:39] <knome> that was a long one, but it was a long time since the last meeting
[16:39] <pleia2> so meeting one week from now
[16:39] <pleia2> updating calendar
[16:39] <knome> yes
[16:40] <pleia2> there w ego
[16:40] <knome> pleia2, you also want to "practice" setting up the minutes?
[16:40] <knome> i need to make a call
[16:40] <knome> and i'm exhausted :P
[16:40] <pleia2> I can but it'll have to be later (busy at work today)
[16:43] <knome> ok
[16:43] <knome> let's see who gets there first
[16:44] <knome> probably me
[16:44] <bluesabre> knome: re: Usability is one of the most important parts of an operating system,  which is used on a daily basis. This is why Xubuntu should be easy to  use and have an elegant appearance that doesn't get in the way. The  appearance should be an all-round experience, covering all user  interfaces from booting to shutting down.
[16:44] <bluesabre> I feel like "elegant" is out of place here.
[16:45] <bluesabre> I'm learning more towards "This is why Xubuntu should be easy to use and have an intuitive interface that doesn't get in the way."
[16:45] <bluesabre> But, I might be alone there
[16:58] <SkippersBoss> Blue And why would that be ?. I like xubuntu firstly because my HP mini can easily cope and second it is still nice to use
[16:59] <SkippersBoss> i ve tried lubuntu a couple of times but in my setup it handling of the screens makes me come back to XU every time
[17:00] <bluesabre> I was just saying replace "elegant appearance" with "intuitive interface".
[17:00] <bluesabre> I just can't seem to make Lubuntu (or LXDE in general) look nice
[17:01] <SkippersBoss> I do not think looking nice in one of the goals of the lubuntu project
[17:02] <SkippersBoss> but we are talking about XU here
[17:02] <SkippersBoss> :-)
[17:14] <bluesabre> Other than that, the Strategy Doc looks great!
[17:28] <knome> #1019621
[17:28] <knome> bug #1019621
[17:28] <knome> :P
[17:32] <micahg> nothing doing for 12.04.1 (save for maybe a backport)
[17:32]  * micahg -> lunch
[17:43] <knome> meeting minutes are up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
[17:44] <astraljava> Yeah, that's a tricky one. And while I do see the point in the opinions for it, I whole-heartedly support the ubuntu devs' point-of-view as well.
[17:45] <astraljava> Backporting, IMHO, is the way to go with that.
[17:45] <knome> i'm not generally too interested about abiword and/or gnumeric.
[17:45] <knome> this is one of the reasons things like this slip through me easier
[17:46] <astraljava> Same for me, I very rarely even open either of them.
[17:46] <knome> well, i don't open them
[17:46] <knome> if i need office suite on a workstation, i purge them and install libreoffice
[17:46] <knome> if i don't, i purge them and install gedit
[17:47] <astraljava> Very rarely == once or twice during my whole *buntu [*] history.
[17:47] <knome> not even while testing? *trollface*
[17:47] <astraljava> Me? TESTING?!
[17:47] <knome> :]
[17:47] <knome> great. only 30mins until food.
[17:48]  * knome prepared lasagna
[17:48]  * elfy waits 30 secs for food 
[17:48] <knome> :d
[17:48] <knome> but it ain't home-made lasagna!
[17:50] <elfy> nope 
[17:51] <elfy> the pork has been cooking really slowly for 7 hours 
[17:53] <knome> heh, that's good too
[17:53]  * astraljava just made sandwiches.
[17:53] <astraljava> elfy: You do realize it's not DCC sendable?
[17:53] <astraljava> Was it DCC? I forget.
[17:53] <elfy> :)
[17:54] <knome> astraljava, :)
[17:56] <astraljava> No, but it'd be delivered home, it it were?
[17:56] <astraljava> Well yeah, both of those are considerably better than rye bread with liver sausage.
[17:56] <astraljava> Oh well, you do what you must, with 3 euros per day.
[18:00] <knome> astraljava, too bad that ain't any more, since you could just take the bus here and eat well :P
[18:03] <elfy> cheap pork ~5euro's   - cooked long - enough for me and daughter for 2 days - not got much money here either astraljava :)
[18:04] <knome> yeah but astraljava's a pig himself, he can't eat pork
[18:04]  * knome hides
[18:04] <elfy> :p
[18:06] <astraljava> Yeah. I don't support cannibalism.
[18:08] <Sysi> astraljava: if you get tired of macaroni and pea soup, meat pasties are relatively cheap
[18:11] <knome> some relatively good beers only cost about 3 euros too
[18:11] <knome> :P
[18:12] <knome> (as if that was any change to your regular diet...)
[18:35] <astraljava> Oh? So you think it's sand and a beer for me, daily?
[18:46] <astraljava> Pigs eat sand, don't they?
[18:48] <elfy> I guess so astraljava 
[18:53] <astraljava> It might have been hen, but I'm pretty sure a very common domestic animal does.
[18:53] <astraljava> Of course not as source of nutrition, but something to do with digestion, I believe.
[18:54] <astraljava> It's nearly three decades since those biology lessons in elementary school, cut me some slack, dangit.
[18:54] <astraljava> And before you ask, YES THIS IS ELEMENTARY TO XUBUNTU DEVELOPMENT!
[19:00] <Unit193> knome_: I did some playing with the desktop files a bit back.
[19:03] <elfy> astraljava: gizzards and birds - stones 
[19:08] <astraljava> Right, that.
[19:09] <elfy> I've seen pigs eat coal 
[19:19] <astraljava> Funny. I don't recall that.
[19:20] <astraljava> Unless of course salmiakki counts as such.
[19:41] <knome> Unit193, yeah. you willing to take that item ?:)
[19:42] <Unit193> Unless there's some hidden hard part, I see no reason not too, just have to revert my changes I've already done. :P
[19:42] <knome> i don't think there is
[22:05] <knome> micahg, if you're more familiar with the SRU stuff.. well, everything's done, in a way :)