[00:00] <chrisccoulson> i can't believe that it's 2012 and i'm playing around with hal
[00:00] <RAOF> Why are you playing around with hal?
[00:02] <chrisccoulson> RAOF, trying to figure out what flash depends on for playing DRM content
[00:03] <RAOF> How does *that* involve hal?
[00:03] <chrisccoulson> RAOF, that's what i'm about to find out (hopefully) ;)
[00:04] <RAOF> Heh
[00:37] <mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: oh, interesting.../me wants to know more
[04:59] <didrocks> good morning!
[06:37] <MCR1> smspillaz: Hi :) Do you have 3 minutes ?
[06:39] <smspillaz> MCR1: yes
[06:39] <smspillaz> MCR1: whats up ?
[06:40] <MCR1> I have a big problem with how Unity handles the show desktop stuff.
[06:40] <MCR1> We have 2 plugins in Compiz to show the desktop: Fade-to-desktop and Show-desktop
[06:41] <smspillaz> MCR1: right
[06:41] <MCR1> but Unity implements a third hardcoded way to show the desktop (essentially the fade-to-desktop plug-in behavior)
[06:41] <smspillaz> yes
[06:41] <smspillaz> that's intended
[06:42] <MCR1> instead of using the Compiz plug-ins selected
[06:42] <smspillaz> yep
[06:42] <MCR1> why ?
[06:42] <MCR1> it creates problems
[06:42] <smspillaz> MCR1: interacting with minized minimized window previews would be really really hard if I did it any other way
[06:43] <smspillaz> the only reason why it does it the way it does is so that when you use the alt-tab switcher in unity you can get the live window previews for the hidden windows
[06:43] <smspillaz> (getting window previews for hidden windows is not trivial)
[06:43] <smspillaz> MCR1: what problems did it create ?
[06:44] <MCR1> for example it ignores the settings of the Show-desktop plug-in (it fades no matter what)
[06:44] <smspillaz> yes, it overrides the behaviour completely
[06:44] <MCR1> and if you choose the fade-to-desktop plug-in everything breaks
[06:44] <smspillaz> right, we should create a conflict then
[06:45] <MCR1> bug 1006429
[06:45] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1006429 in compiz "Fade to Desktop plug-in makes windows disappear completely, getting them back to view solely by pressing "Show Desktop" on the Unity panel again" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1006429
[06:46] <MCR1> the other bug I filed regarding that behavior somehow disappeared, although I am sure I filed it...
[06:46] <smspillaz> MCR1: I think the best way to handle this is to to make those plugins conflict with unityshell
[06:46] <smspillaz> they conflict with each other already
[06:46] <smspillaz> and unityshell implements a show desktop behaviour
[06:46] <smspillaz> (IMHO, showdesktop should be removed from unity, since the entire concept doesn't make any sense)
[06:46] <smspillaz> (but that's just my opinion)
[06:47] <MCR1> yes, but it is a regression that the windows do not move out the screen...
[06:47] <MCR1> this was much cooler than a simple fade
[06:47] <smspillaz> in any case, I briefly considered reconciling the code back upstream so that it would work with the upstream plugins but the behaviour (interaction wise) was too different
[06:48] <smspillaz> MCR1: I understand that, however when you're running unity you're running unity :)
[06:48] <smspillaz> its not really a regression because its not the way we ever really intended for it to work
[06:49] <MCR1> I would rather remove the fade-to-desktop plug-in and use the other functionality (move windows out of the way) for Unity - is this possible or really not wanted ?
[06:49] <smspillaz> MCR1: to be honest, I think I'm going to have a chat with the design team about showdesktop next cycle
[06:49] <smspillaz> that and window shading
[06:49] <smspillaz> because at the moment, both concepts don't have much use
[06:50] <smspillaz> either they need to be redesigned to be slicker (I agree, the fade is lame), or they need to be removed from unity entirely
[06:50] <MCR1> smspillaz: I have Emerald and 3 additional buttons to shade/unshade sticky/unsticky and set above/unset above
[06:50] <smspillaz> and how often do you use shade/unshade ?
[06:51] <MCR1> I have to admit - almost never
[06:51] <smspillaz> I'm pretty sure that there was a period for like
[06:51] <smspillaz> maybe 5 months
[06:51] <smspillaz> where shading a window would break your desktop completely
[06:51] <smspillaz> and nobody filed a bug about it
[06:51] <smspillaz> and I only noticed it when I tried to shade a window
[06:51] <MCR1> but the sticky and set above functionality is in use often here
[06:51] <smspillaz> right, that's fine
[06:52] <smspillaz> MCR1: in any case, its probably going to stay the way it is, unless design decides they want to keep it and can come up with a better animation for it
[06:52] <MCR1> I do not understand why the design theme does not want to go with Emerald, but with the GTK win decorator
[06:52] <MCR1> *design team
[06:52] <smspillaz> MCR1: that wasn't the design team's choice
[06:52] <smspillaz> MCR1: we needed to support metacity
[06:52] <smspillaz> it makes sense to use the officially supported code
[06:52] <smspillaz> emerald has not been supported in a long time
[06:53] <MCR1> It is sooo much more advanced - I am pretty sure noone ever showed them Emerald
[06:53] <smspillaz> and I don't intend to support it, the code is a complete disaster
[06:53] <smspillaz> maybe we can write a new window decorator with a better design for what we intend to do
[06:53] <smspillaz> but who knows
[06:54] <MCR1> It is still working perfectly, with one minor issue since the global menu was introduced (the buttons disappear), but I am sure even me could fix that
[06:54] <smspillaz> MCR1: btw, everything that emerald can do gtk-window-decorator can do as well
[06:54] <smspillaz> emerald just has options for all the old hardcoded stuff
[06:54] <MCR1> Transparency, glowing animated buttons ?
[06:54] <smspillaz> yep
[06:55] <MCR1> fully customizable titlebar ?
[06:55] <smspillaz> MCR1: like I said, it introduced options
[06:55] <MCR1> where is the theme manager ?
[06:55] <smspillaz> MCR1: like I said, it introduced options
[06:55] <smspillaz> the code is basically the same, except that less stuff is hardcoded
[06:55] <MCR1> (Never looked at the code - you got me ;))
[06:56] <smspillaz> MCR1: I think the thing to understand is that while compiz may have had a "customizable" past, we are not really supporting that in the unity case. I am fine with people running compiz standalone though and doing what they want with it
[06:57] <smspillaz> the fact that the window manager and compositor are pluggable are useful in both cases
[06:58] <MCR1> I love the Unity/Compiz idea, but still keys and plugins should be customizable
[06:58] <smspillaz> MCR1: or I'll rephrase - I'm not going to go out of my way to remove options, however I'm not going to go out of my way to support them in something that's supposed to be designed and locked down from the ground up
[06:59] <smspillaz> MCR1: right, the keys and plugin are customizable, its just that customizing /all/ the plugins and keys and expecting it to work whilst also running unity is not supported
[06:59] <smspillaz> we don't have the manpower to support something of that scale, nor is it important given the audience the unity is targeting
[06:59] <didrocks> MCR1: why "should"?
[07:00] <MCR1> didrocks: because currently there are many problems, especially with hardcoded shortcuts
[07:01] <didrocks> MCR1: well, the problems mostly comes from cutomization
[07:01] <didrocks> so introducing options is costly
[07:01] <didrocks> and not well tested
[07:01] <didrocks> the consequence is that the final product is average
[07:01] <MCR1> and Compiz is not aware of those hardcoded Unity shortcuts - it is a design problem
[07:01] <didrocks> because this and this and this combination doesn't work
[07:02] <MCR1> you cannot say - let Compiz manage one part of shortcuts and Unity some other ones - problems WILL happen then
[07:02] <MCR1> Compiz should be in control of all shortcuts, after all Unity is a compiz plug-in, not the other way round
[07:04] <didrocks> MCR1: for this case, I agree it's more a code issue, but it's also the way the super key is dealt
[07:04] <didrocks> MCR1: but still, I don't agree that everything should be customizable
[07:04] <didrocks> and that was my point :)
[07:05] <smspillaz> MCR1: right the super key problem is a hard one really
[07:05] <smspillaz> MCR1: internally compiz is in charge of managing all the shortcuts, however not all of that is exposed to compizconfig
[07:05] <MCR1> Compiz does not know about Alt+Space for example
[07:06] <smspillaz> MCR1: I think it does actually
[07:06] <smspillaz> MCR1: yeah, ccsm -> general -> window menu key
[07:07] <MCR1> smspillaz: Try to change it :)
[07:07] <smspillaz> I'm not running unity at the moment
[07:07] <smspillaz> so I wouldn't know
[07:07] <MCR1> It does not work
[07:07] <smspillaz> hmm
[07:07] <MCR1> and you can also assign Alt+Space to something else in CCSM and it will accept it without warning
[07:07] <didrocks> (another example of options leading to broken behavior)
[07:08] <smspillaz> I think that key is actually handled by unity-panel-service
[07:08] <MCR1> same goes for many Unity hardcoded stuff
[07:08] <didrocks> smspillaz: yeah, I think you're right
[07:08] <MCR1> didrocks: I do not think you want to ban all software that wants to use Alt+Space
[07:08] <smspillaz> MCR1: to be honest, I think its a compiz bug that it gets to keep the keybinding
[07:09] <MCR1> imagine you want to play a game, where space is shooting and alt bombing - the window menu will pop up al the time
[07:09] <MCR1> *all
[07:09] <smspillaz> MCR1: if you have a passive grab on a key in X11 and try to make another passive grab, it will not allow you to
[07:09] <didrocks> MCR1: that's not related to "changing the key" though
[07:09] <smspillaz> so this change should be communicated back up to compizconfig
[07:09] <smspillaz> so that it is unset
[07:10]  * RAOF pipes up as the author of some software that uses <super>+<space> by default. Yes, please :)
[07:10] <smspillaz> RAOF: author ?
[07:10] <smspillaz> RAOF: gnome-do ?
[07:10] <RAOF> Yah.
[07:11] <smspillaz> oh, cool didn't know you were involved in that one
[07:11] <didrocks> smspillaz: come on, it's part of the secret conspiracy to make life hard to mono developer, shhhh :)
[07:11] <smspillaz> oh yeah
[07:11] <smspillaz> bono
[07:11] <RAOF> :P
[07:11] <MCR1> I am unfortunately too much of a newbie to know how it exactly works at the moment, but I do realize that many keys Unity and Compiz use work perfectly, CCSM is aware of their existence, warns, you can change them - while others are imho unnecessary hardcoded
[07:11] <didrocks> heh
[07:11] <RAOF> I hates you and your <super> key grabbing!
[07:12] <didrocks> RAOF: we love you too :-)
[07:12] <didrocks> RAOF: TBH, it's a real difficult issues
[07:12] <MCR1> RAOF: +1
[07:12] <smspillaz> MCR1: it might not make sense to hardcode them but it does make sense to fix the behaviour so that there's no conflict
[07:12] <smspillaz> errr
[07:12] <didrocks> I remember that we discuss it in extend length 1 year and half ago
[07:12] <RAOF> didrocks: Yeah, I gather. It's been fixed and unfixed a couple of times.
[07:12] <smspillaz> *might not make sense to make them options
[07:13] <didrocks> RAOF: everytime we "fixed it", it came back with worse side-effects ::
[07:13] <didrocks> :/
[07:13] <RAOF> Right.
[07:13] <smspillaz> actions bound to modifier keys
[07:13] <smspillaz> !
[07:13] <RAOF> I'm not sure that it makes sense to have the keybindings customisable _at all_. There's a lot to be said for standard keybindings everywhere.
[07:13] <MCR1> smspillaz: Some of them are options for generations of Compiz already - do you want to remove those options ?
[07:13] <didrocks> smspillaz: don't ever mention those words, I'm making nightmares now :)
[07:13] <smspillaz> MCR1: nope, just want to make it so that when you run unity there's no conflict
[07:14] <smspillaz> eg, two things bound to the same key and undefined behaviour as a result
[07:14] <didrocks> RAOF: agreed, and we shouldn't mix two parts: the bug itself in super that MCR1 is describing and the fact we can or can't change it
[07:14] <MCR1> yes, agreed.
[07:14] <didrocks> those are really 2 differents things
[07:16] <smspillaz> MCR1: if you want to file a bug about how there is undefined behaviour when unity's keys interact with compiz keys and that the unity behaviour should override the compiz behaviour in the unity case, then I'll add it to the 0.9.8 buglist
[07:16] <MCR1> bug 1022743
[07:16] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1022743 in unity "Shortcuts in CCSM reset after getting changed." [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1022743
[07:17] <MCR1> but unfortunately the title has been reduced and info has been cut out
[07:17] <MCR1> but the description still says everything
[07:19] <MCR1> for me this bug has more than "low" importance
[07:22] <MCR1> smspillaz: Thanks for making it a milestone - feels much better now :)
[07:24] <smspillaz> MCR1: this doesn't necessarily mean I'll be able to allocate resources to work on it
[07:24] <MCR1> smspillaz: I know, I'll try to dig into it as well, but I have to understand how everything works together first...
[07:25] <smspillaz> I can help after FF
[07:25] <MCR1> thx
[08:39] <seb128> hey desktopers
[08:49] <RAOF> Hey seb128!
[08:49] <seb128> RAOF, hey, how are you?
[08:50] <RAOF> Pretty good.
[08:50] <RAOF> It's nice that it's the weekend, though.
[08:51] <seb128> hehe, still a work day between the weekend and me :p
[08:53] <seb128> RAOF, thanks for updating your workitems btw!
[08:54] <RAOF> NP.
[09:24] <mpt> didrocks! upgrading user config
[09:25] <didrocks> mpt: hey hey hey, sure, I have time now :)
[09:25] <didrocks> (in fact, perfect timing ;))
[09:26] <mpt> didrocks, so, "Design to decide what should be presented to user on logout (red too much?)"
[09:26] <mpt> didrocks, what are we presenting?
[09:27] <didrocks> mpt: so, I didn't write that line as I told you some weeks ago
[09:27] <didrocks> however, I think, this is:
[09:27] <didrocks> if an application needs to logout/login to get some new data migration to happen, what should we do to tell them "you need to logout/login"
[09:28] <mpt> didrocks, can you give an example where you'd need to log out?
[09:29] <didrocks> mpt: ok, so next week, compiz (and unity) is transitionning from gconf to gsettings
[09:30] <didrocks> we need to convert some gconf keys if they have been changed by the user to their gsettings equivalent
[09:30] <didrocks> with our current infra, it's only possible to do that on login
[09:30] <mpt> ok
[09:30] <didrocks> so, people have to upgrade to new compiz/gsettings, and so on
[09:30] <didrocks> and to logout/login
[09:30]  * MCR1 fears next week :-X
[09:31] <didrocks> if compiz crash before they logout
[09:31] <didrocks> it will restart
[09:31] <didrocks> but presents the default values
[09:31] <didrocks> and next logout/login will transition the data
[09:31] <didrocks> so not a particularly good experience :)
[09:32] <smspillaz> MCR1: welcome to ubuntu development
[09:32] <MCR1> hehe
[09:32] <mpt> didrocks, why at login? Why not whenever compiz next starts, whether it's at login or not?
[09:32] <didrocks> mpt: because we don't have the infra to support that and it implies all upstream have a migration mechanism
[09:32] <didrocks> which they don't
[09:33] <smspillaz> didrocks: oh neat, we have the infrastructure to do that on login now ?
[09:33] <smspillaz> awesome
[09:33] <didrocks> smspillaz: yeah, not reading planet ubuntu? :)
[09:33]  * smspillaz has been waiting for that for years
[09:33] <didrocks> smspillaz: http://blog.didrocks.fr/post/Announcing-session-migration-now-in-ubuntu
[09:33] <smspillaz> didrocks: yeah I just remembered I saw it on your blag
[09:34] <didrocks> mpt: also, we want to have the user doing the logout/login as soon as possible
[09:34] <MCR1> didrocks: I have your subscribed to your blog, but this was not in the feed
[09:34] <didrocks> mpt: because in that case, people will upgrade g-s-d and g-c-c
[09:34] <didrocks> mpt: g-s-d will need to be restarted to support gsettings
[09:34] <MCR1> didrocks: sorry, it was
[09:35] <MCR1> didrocks: I just missed it somehow....
[09:35] <didrocks> mpt: but gnome-control-center, which after the upgrade will only support gsettings and not gconf will show keys that you can modify without any action until you restart compiz and g-s-d
[09:35] <didrocks> MCR1: no worry :)
[09:35] <mpt> didrocks, do you have examples that would occur post-release?
[09:35] <didrocks> mpt: I think the first person doing that post-release will be killed :)
[09:36] <didrocks> mpt: but with the new scheme of "always having a development release working…"
[09:39] <mpt> didrocks, sorry for all my naive questions. :-) Here's another one: Why wouldn't the upgrade process restart g-s-d itself?
[09:41] <didrocks> mpt: so, it means that you are doing an upgrade, ensure you have compiz, unity, g-c-c, g-s-d on box at the same time (the packaging part is taking care of that), and then, restart compiz/unity, g-s-d, and g-c-c (if started), reopen them to the same status before the upgrade?
[09:42] <mpt> didrocks, sorry, I was imprecise. For an upgrade from one Ubuntu version to the next, there's going to be a restart anyway, right?
[09:43] <didrocks> mpt: yeah, we are speaking about "inside a dev release" here I guess
[09:43] <didrocks> mpt: but with the always having a working unstable distro, I think this is part of the scope?
[09:45] <mpt> didrocks, if it's a development pre-release, I'm tempted to say "just use debconf" :-)
[09:45] <achiang> for the coming unity-fication, will it be possible to force unity to run in LLVM mode?
[09:46] <achiang> my current hardware does support compiz, but i run 2D today because otherwise my CPU melts
[09:47] <didrocks> mpt: hehe, I think it can make sense :)
[09:47] <mpt> didrocks, or here's a better idea. I know there's a flag you can set on a software update to say that it will require restart. I don't know what that flag looks like. Do you know?
[09:47] <mpt> didrocks, maybe we can extend that flag to have an option to say that it will require logout, instead of restart.
[09:47] <didrocks> mpt: yeah, it's a restart, do we want to differentiate restart from login again?
[09:47] <didrocks> I guess it was more or less what was discussed in the discussion
[09:47] <didrocks> to have logout possibility
[09:49] <mpt> I'm wondering how useful it is to have "logout strongly recommended" rather than "logout required right now"
[09:49] <mpt> I guess it would help to have examples other than the compiz one.
[09:49] <didrocks> mpt: the others are linked to unity
[09:49] <didrocks> but it's more on "recommends front"
[09:49] <didrocks> like removing/adding a launcher icon
[09:50] <didrocks> (because a software changed its .desktop file name)
[09:50] <didrocks> it happened with ubuntuone
[09:50] <didrocks> so if you still want to have the launcher icon entry
[09:50] <didrocks> you need to rename the entry in gsettings
[09:52] <mpt> ok
[09:52] <mpt> and you might not even have that application in your Launcher, so requiring you to log out just for that would be overkill.
[09:54]  * mpt struggles to imagine something that *wouldn't* be overkill in that situation :-)
[09:55] <mpt> If you click the Launcher item and it doesn't work, that the session menu is red probably wouldn't help much
[09:56] <mpt> and on the other hand if you notice it's red and inside it says "Log Out Recommended..." or whatever, and you're not affected by whatever migration it is, that would be kinda annoying
[09:56] <mpt> hrmmmm
[09:57] <didrocks> mpt: yeah, tricky isn't it?
[09:57] <didrocks> for something which seems so easy :)
[09:58] <mpt> If this will only ever happen pre-release, then if you have multiple users logged in to a pre-release Ubuntu version, you ought to expect some occasional weirdness that's fixed by a logout
[09:58] <Laney> couldn't unity notice this situation occurring and trigger the transition itself?
[09:59] <mpt> Laney, that would be ideal. "Wait, this file is changing. I'd better redraw the Launcher that uses it."
[10:01] <mpt> (That would also fix the problem where the Launcher still shows applications that have just been uninstalled.)
[10:03] <didrocks> well, this is one example, but the gsettings transition is way more complex to detect
[10:03] <didrocks> it's like predicting the future "oh, I will soon have to transition to that and look at this"
[10:04] <chrisccoulson> i hate flash
[10:05] <mpt> didrocks, any more post-release examples?
[10:05] <didrocks> mpt: no post-release, I think we will never do that post-release (apart from application changing their .desktop filename maybe in extras)
[10:06] <mpt> didrocks, so what do you think of the idea to just use debconf then?
[10:06] <chrisccoulson> if i want to monitor everything on the system bus, do i just need to add "<allow eavesdrop="true"/>" to the default policy in /etc/dbus-1/system.conf?
[10:07] <chrisccoulson> i'm fairly sure i'm still not seeing everything i expected to see
[10:07] <didrocks> mpt: I don't see how debconf solve the issue here TBH
[10:08] <mpt> didrocks, by assuming that if you're using a pre-release version, *either* you're the only person logged in (in which case you get the debconf prompt suggesting that you log out), *or* you're prepared for possible weirdness if someone else does an update while you're logged in.
[10:08] <didrocks> mpt: why not using the same thing that asking for restart?
[10:09] <didrocks> but having another mode for logging out/in
[10:09] <didrocks> all logged users will be warned then
[10:09] <mpt> didrocks, sure, that would suit me too.
[10:09] <mpt> ok, I'll update the SoftwareUpdates spec with a variation on the restart prompt.
[10:09] <didrocks> mpt: it's not a lot to do (well, feature freeze is next week, so too late), but can be a nice addition for next cycle. The words should be chosen though :)
[10:10] <didrocks> mpt: excellent, thanks :)
[10:24] <mpt> didrocks, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1152346/ ... I don't have it right yet
[10:26] <didrocks> I like: "Software updates will finish installing when you log out." and "Ubuntu may behave unexpectedly until you next log in."
[10:26] <mpt> ok
[10:33] <soren> I'm trying to use the gnome3-team/gnome3 ppa on Precise. When I choose Gnome in lightdm, I still land in a Unity environment. The PPA's description points here for help.
[10:37] <seb128> soren, what do you want from the ppa?
[10:37] <seb128> the ppa shouldn't really be needed in precise
[10:37] <soren> seb128: I think I added it because I expected it to fix this exact problem.
[10:37] <seb128> (I didn't look at it most recently but precise has mostly everything in the archive)
[10:37] <seb128> soren, is gnome-shell installed?
[10:38] <soren> I very likely dont need it.
[10:38] <seb128> is that what you want to run?
[10:38] <soren> se	Yes.
[10:38] <soren> I'd like to take it for a spin, at least, yeah.
[10:38] <soren> gnome-shell is installed.
[10:38] <seb128> did you pick the gnome-foot logo session in lightdm?
[10:38] <soren> And gnome-session is invoked as "gnome-session --session=gnome"
[10:38] <soren> seb128: Yup.
[10:39] <seb128> can you pastebin your .xsession-errors?
[10:40] <soren> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1152374/
[10:40] <soren> Hm, gnome3 has its own wm, doesn't it?
[10:40] <soren> I have compiz running for some reason.
[10:41] <seb128> soren, what does "/usr/lib/gnome-session/gnome-session-check-accelerated" returns?
[10:41] <soren> 0
[10:41] <seb128> $ /usr/lib/gnome-session/gnome-session-check-accelerated; echo $?
[10:42] <soren> Hmm.. even if I "gnome-wm --replace", I end up with Compiz again.
[10:42] <seb128> gnome-session[5342]: EggSMClient-WARNING: Invalid Version string '0.9.4' in /home/soren/.config/autostart/Compiz.desktop
[10:42] <soren> Some shell script respawns it.
[10:42] <seb128> soren, rm ~/.config/autostart/Compiz.desktop ?
[10:43] <soren> Let's see.
[10:43] <seb128> soren, otherwise edit /usr/share/gnome-session/sessions/gnome.session
[10:44] <seb128> soren, add a --debug to the gnome-session command
[10:44] <seb128> then retry login and paste your .xsession-errors again
[10:46] <soren> seb128: Sorry, I don
[10:46] <soren> t see the gnome-session command i nthere.
[10:47] <seb128> soren, sorry /usr/share/xsessions/gnome-shell.desktop
[10:47] <soren> Ah.
[10:47] <soren> Right now, I don't even get a working desktop (after I removed that compiz.desktop autostart thing)
[10:48] <seb128> soren, does running gnome-shell by hand works?
[10:48] <soren> Iwas just about to say "no", but then it finally started 
[10:49] <soren> Anyway, I've added --debug, I'll log out and back in.
[10:49] <seb128> soren, weird, get a --debug log I guess
[10:49] <soren> Maybe my ridiculously large monitor is causing it.
[10:50] <seb128> compiz 1 - 0 gnome-shell on big monitors? :p
[10:51] <soren> Oh, I was just being impatient. It actually does start now.
[10:53] <soren> Is gnome-shell also the wm?
[10:53] <mpt> didrocks, ok, <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates?action=diff&rev2=81&rev1=80> <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdates?action=diff&rev2=81&rev1=80#After_installing>
[11:03] <didrocks> mpt: excellent! thanks :)
[11:09] <didrocks> mpt: what is about this "(except the user who installed the updates, if any of them also require restart)."
[11:09] <didrocks> he want to be warned as well that the updates requires logout/login?
[11:21] <mpt> didrocks, I guess we could add the secondary text from the logout-required alert to the restart-required alert
[11:21] <mpt> in that case
[11:22] <didrocks> mpt: agreed
[11:53] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: hey, did you see my question about the chat item in thunderbird yesterday?
[12:39] <Sweetsha1k> mvo: since when do we have this sweet sessionhelper API? i.e. should this also work on precise?
[12:55] <chrisccoulson> didrocks, what question is that?
[12:55] <chrisccoulson> sigh @ bug 1038047
[12:55] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1038047 in thunderbird ""evolution-data-server" has to be installed for Thunderbird 15 after upgrade to be executable, otherwise Thunderbird will crashs at runtime" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1038047
[12:56] <chrisccoulson> libedataserver now has a hard run-time dependency on evolution-data-server
[12:56] <chrisccoulson> seb128, ^^
[12:56] <seb128> urg :-(
[12:56] <chrisccoulson> it seems anything using libedataserver aborts because of missing gsettings schemas if e-d-s isn't installed
[12:57] <seb128> so we either need to move the schemas or hard depends on it
[12:57] <chrisccoulson> and then it aborts if it can't start evolution-source-registry if you fix the schema issue
[12:57] <seb128> chrisccoulson, do you see a point trying to avoid the depends?
[12:57] <seb128> oh ok
[12:57] <seb128> so hard depends it is I guess
[12:57] <seb128> is that an issue for tb?
[12:57] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: since the end of July, I have the "chat" icon in thunderbird
[12:57] <chrisccoulson> didrocks, yeah, that's expected
[12:58] <seb128> same here
[12:58] <didrocks> but it's bad
[12:58] <chrisccoulson> seb128, yeah, it breaks tb for anybody not using gnome
[12:58] <seb128> chrisccoulson, can we distro patch that setting to default to off?
[12:58] <didrocks> we already have a chat app :/
[12:58] <didrocks> and people starts to contact me and it's showing here
[12:58] <seb128> chrisccoulson, that settings = the one displaying the chat button
[12:58] <didrocks> when I want to be offline
[12:58] <chrisccoulson> i'm not sure what to do with it atm. it's actually already preffed off in release builds
[12:58] <didrocks> seb128: it should prevent connecting as well
[12:59] <seb128> didrocks, what accounts is it using?
[12:59] <didrocks> my gmail one
[12:59] <seb128> oh, you configured a gmail mail and it's using it for im?
[12:59] <didrocks> as I have gmail configured in it
[12:59] <didrocks> yeah
[12:59] <didrocks> so I'm online
[12:59] <seb128> is there a bug about it to milestone?
[12:59] <didrocks> I can set it off in the preference
[12:59] <didrocks> I don't think so (for now)
[12:59] <seb128> if you find one please milestone it ;-)
[13:00] <seb128> seems like something we should track for quantal indeed
[13:00] <seb128> chrisccoulson, do you agree?
[13:00] <didrocks> seb128: well, at worse, I will find one. Minde :)
[13:00] <didrocks> Mine ;)
[13:01] <chrisccoulson> seb128, it's already off in release builds still, and it should be benign unless you've configured a chat account
[13:01] <chrisccoulson> i use gmail here, and chat remains unconfigured
[13:02] <didrocks> I opened bug #1038073
[13:02] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1038073 in thunderbird "Shouldn't have the chat element in thunderbird" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1038073
[13:02] <didrocks> chrisccoulson: seb128 ^
[13:04] <mvo> Sweetsha1k: it should
[13:04] <didrocks> yeah, seems to be a separate account that I configured to try it when I saw it in guadec
[13:04] <didrocks> maybe it just prefiled the account
[13:04] <mvo> seb128: do you think you could organize that someone reviews my phased updates work for update-manager ? or should I just land it ;) ?
[13:06] <jibel> mvo, 1rst run, this is great!  https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Quantal/view/AutoPkg%20Test/job/quantal-adt-software-center/1/
[13:08] <mvo> jibel: cool, it says FAIL though ;)
[13:08] <seb128> mvo, give it to didrocks I heard he has plenty of time and nothing to do next week? ;-)
[13:08] <jibel> mvo, yeah, but at least now we know ;)
[13:08] <mvo> jibel: haha
[13:08] <didrocks> seb128: if you want it to be stalled, sure do it :-)
[13:09] <mvo> jibel: yeah, its all good, I tested it in my localally build adt and it was much happier there, I will investigate
[13:09] <seb128> mvo, joke aside let's see
[13:09] <seb128> mvo, I need to check with mterry how crazy busy he is when he gets online
[13:10] <seb128> mvo, he knows a bit update-manager since he worked on it and he's one of the few ones that might have spare cycles
[13:10] <seb128> other ones are robru and cyphermox who might have a bit of spare time
[13:10] <seb128> mvo, do you have the urls for the merge request?
[13:11] <mvo> seb128: sure https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/update-manager/phased-updates/+merge/119503
[13:11] <seb128> didrocks, thanks for the tb bug, if it requires manual config and is off in stable version it's a bit less of an issue but we should keep an eye on it
[13:11] <seb128> mvo, danke
[13:11] <seb128> oh, speaking of mterry
[13:11] <seb128> mterry, hey
[13:12]  * mterry looks up
[13:12] <didrocks> seb128: yeah, for consistency with the platform
[13:13] <mvo> jibel: is there a way to get log articfacts from the adt build? or should I just add some code to simply cat them at the end of the adt run?
[13:16] <jibel> mvo, the logs we attach at the moment are all there: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Quantal/view/AutoPkg%20Test/job/quantal-adt-software-center/ARCH=amd64,label=albali/1/artifact/results/
[13:16] <jibel> mvo, if there is any specific log you wish to add, tell me and I'll add it
[13:17] <seb128> mvo, we will have a review for you monday (or tuesday) next week most likely
[13:17] <seb128> mvo, either mterry or robru (new starter)
[13:18] <jibel> mvo, also the lab have restrictions regarding access to external resources
[13:18]  * seb128 is out for some hours, bbl
[13:18] <didrocks> see you seb128!
[13:19] <seb128> didrocks, see you, have good holidays if you are off work by the time I'm back
[13:19] <didrocks> seb128: thanks a lot! maybe ttyl or yeah, see you in september :)
[13:19] <didrocks> and good luck with feature freeze in that case ;)
[13:20] <seb128> thanks! ;-)
[13:20] <mvo> jibel: the stuff in the buildtree, tests/output would be nice
[13:20] <mvo> jibel: eh, os.path.join(buildtree,"tests","output") :)
[13:21] <mvo> jibel: but I can add a "cat" to my run-tests.sh script too if that is easier ?
[13:21] <jibel> mvo, if it's specific to SC, it's easier to add a 'cat' indeed
[13:23] <mvo> jibel: will do
[13:33] <jibel> mvo, looking at how the test runs you can cat to stderr when a test fails and it will be collected in dsc0t-run-tests-stderr
[13:37] <mvo> ta
[14:12] <Sweetsha1k> mvo: k, thanks
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> the fact that libedataserver now depends on the gsettings schema is a pain. because the dependency needs to be strict, it means that ABI transitions will be painful in the future
[14:39] <chrisccoulson> can we version gsettings schemas? ;)
[14:52] <jcastro> jasoncwarner_: "Today is the first day that 'Unity' can be used without confusion on Ubuntu." You mean until Unity the game engine runs on ubuntu and then we're doomed again right? :)
[14:52] <kenvandine> jcastro, lol
[14:54] <dobey> chrisccoulson: it's going to be REALLY fun when schemas *remove* some settings
[15:39] <robru> seb128, mvo: yes I have the whole weekend free, starting right now. what can I help with?
[15:44] <ESphynx> Would any of you here be able to assist me regarding integration problems with Unity?
[15:44] <ESphynx> http://ecere.com/tmp/unityBug.png
[15:45] <ESphynx> is there some kind of weird override going on with maximized apps? > Unity realy doesn’t play nice with my GUI toolkit :|  you’ll see the menu bar display twice under itself when maximized... and sometimes the clicks are gonna be off as well... I really wish we could work to resolve this
[15:45] <ESphynx>  My app is meant to come up maximized...But with Unity, sometimes it will come up maximized messed up, sometimes maximized OK , sometimes not maximized (fine)
[15:49] <didrocks> ESphynx: hey, you should go to #ubuntu-unity to contact upstream
[15:50] <ESphynx> didrocks hehe k, I was there but no one answered :P will retry :)
[15:50] <ESphynx> I stormed in rage how I disliked Unity when I joined though, that might explain :P
[15:51] <didrocks> maybe yeah :)
[15:51] <ESphynx> just got really upset when I couldn’t find the terminal :P
[15:51] <didrocks> ctrl + alt + t
[15:51] <ESphynx> those little icons at the bottom...
[15:51] <ESphynx> and recent stuff
[15:51] <didrocks> or super + terminal
[15:51] <ESphynx> I know... but...
[15:51] <ESphynx> :P
[15:51] <didrocks> super + ter + enter
[15:51] <ESphynx> I don’t like the alt-tabber much eithe
[15:52] <didrocks> ok, if it's just for trolling, I have other things to do…
[15:52] <ESphynx> nope, not trolling :)
[15:52] <ESphynx> thanks didrocks
[15:52] <didrocks> yw ESphynx ;)
[15:58] <seb128> robru, hey
[15:59] <robru> good morning!
[15:59]  * didrocks waves good evening and good week-end!
[15:59] <robru> bye didrocks
[15:59] <didrocks> bye bye robru ;)
[15:59] <seb128> robru, we do code reviews usually when we can and mvo was looking for someone to review his https://code.launchpad.net/~mvo/update-manager/phased-updates/+merge/119503
[16:00] <seb128> robru, I figured maybe you could have a look? it's python code and shouldn't be too long
[16:00] <robru> seb128, oh, ok. I'm just about to have breakfast but I can look at it within an hour or so.
[16:00] <kenvandine> oh... robru... maybe you can review mterry's deja-dup branch that i haven't had time to look at too :)
[16:00] <kenvandine> he's been waiting for me for a couple days now :)
[16:00] <robru> kenvandine, yeah sure! URL?
[16:00] <kenvandine> hehe
[16:01] <kenvandine> robru, you rock
[16:01] <mterry> robru, aha!  A new deja-dup sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hreviewer!  :)
[16:01] <seb128> robru, no hurry, monday works as well
[16:01] <robru> oh no...
[16:01] <kenvandine> https://code.launchpad.net/~mterry/deja-dup/verify/+merge/119176
[16:02] <mterry> robru, no worries, no rush on that either
[16:02] <kenvandine> robru, i've made mterry wait like a week already... monday shouldn't hurt much
[16:02] <kenvandine> seb128, ready for another new package from me?
[16:02] <kenvandine> hehe
[16:02] <robru> Funny, I've never looked at deja dup source before, but in the past when I was building my own backup solution I just couldn't bring myself to trust any GUI, had to write my own rsync wrapper in shell script...
[16:02] <kenvandine> not a browser extension
[16:04] <robru> Actually my gf is on her way out the door for the weekend, so I'll have lots of time to kill until sunday night ;-)
[16:04] <kenvandine> seb128, lp:~online-accounts/unity-lens-gdocs/quantal
[16:04] <kenvandine> don't let the project name fool you, that is actually not a lens
[16:04] <seb128> kenvandine, ok, doing that in a bit, let me finish catching up
[16:05] <kenvandine> it is unity-scope-gdocs
[16:05] <kenvandine> sure
[16:05] <kenvandine> no big rush
[16:05] <kenvandine> but this will need to get added to that MIR
[16:05] <kenvandine> i have unity-lens-photos coming too
[16:13] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, fancy taking a look at the change on bug 1038047? i'd upload it, but i don't want to step on anyone’s toes
[16:13] <ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1038047 in evolution-data-server ""evolution-data-server" has to be installed for Thunderbird 15 after upgrade to be executable, otherwise Thunderbird will crashs at runtime" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1038047
[16:13] <chrisccoulson> and i know how much you love evolution ;)
[16:13] <cyphermox> hehe
[16:13] <cyphermox> sure, looking
[16:14] <chrisccoulson> thanks
[16:16] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson: I don't know, the SourceRegistry stuff is really required to have access to any calendars, addressbooks or whatever
[16:16] <cyphermox> it scares me a little to make it not fatal if it doesn't start
[16:17] <cyphermox> that should all get started via DBus activation IIRC
[16:17] <chrisccoulson> cyphermox, that's fine, this change just means that e_source_registry_new_* returns NULL now, rather than aborting
[16:18] <cyphermox> ok
[16:18] <chrisccoulson> which the API documentation claims it should do already
[16:28] <topyli> i have a pretty nice pretty-default gnome in precise now. what will the situation be in quantal? is it still going to be easily achievable?
[16:29] <seb128> topyli, why would that change?
[16:30] <topyli> seb128: i can't define it, it's just an ominous feeling of getting heavily patched nautilus and other components
[16:32] <seb128> topyli, nautilus is less patched in quantal than precise, I don't understand why you state that it's heavily patched
[16:32] <topyli> maybe i read too much omg! ubuntu or something
[16:33] <topyli> note, i don't have quantal, i'm just going by rumours
[16:33] <robru> topyli, I am using gnome-shell in quantal and it's working nicely. Even overlay-scrollbar is easy to uninstall for that stock gnome look and feel.
[16:34] <topyli> robru: yeah it's easy to get rid of
[16:35] <robru> topyli, Nautilus is nice for now... From what I've seen, we don't have the manpower to do much about it for now, but there's talk of replacing it later on.
[16:36] <seb128> robru, you should probably start playing with unity btw :p
[16:36] <seb128> or running at times
[16:37] <topyli> i'd rather see nautilus replaced than changed from the original gnome design
[16:37] <dobey> topyli: maybe you're just confused because upstream gnome is making big changes to nautilus, and most people don't like those changes
[16:37] <robru> seb128, nah, there's enough unity users... the team really needs a gnome shell user to notice breakages, like when you updated bluetooth ;-)
[16:37] <seb128> robru, just curious, did you try unity before or are you just a gnome-shell user? ;-)
[16:37] <topyli> dobey: i do like the changes, i'd rather not see them reversed as "regressions" :)
[16:38] <robru> seb128, yeah I have used it here and there. there are some parts I like and some I don't. overall I just think gnome shell is sexier ;-)
[16:38] <seb128> topyli, what difference does it make to you if there is a compact view available that you don't use?
[16:39] <topyli> seb128: no difference. less buttons, clean interface and shell integration is what matters more
[16:39] <seb128> topyli, well anyway we don't plan to patch nautilus
[16:39] <seb128> topyli, we might ship nautilus3.4 as a separate source though
[16:40] <seb128> topyli, they it's your choice what version to use
[16:40] <topyli> seb128: this sounds good, thanks. our gnome team has always been awesome and continues to be so :)
[16:42] <seb128> topyli, yw ;-)
[16:44] <cyphermox> chrisccoulson: looks fine I guess -- feel free to upload it if you've tested it doesn't break evolution ;)
[16:45] <robru> anybody here fluent in german?
[16:45] <jbicha> I actually like Nautilus 3.6 :)
[16:46] <robru> jbicha, me too! so streamlined.
[16:46] <topyli> i haven't tried, but i do like what i read about and see in screenshots
[16:47] <topyli> i think the next big thing will be turning rhythmbox into a real gnome3 app
[16:54] <seb128> jbicha, robru: I hate the keyboard navigation in it, it's just impossible to use
[16:55] <robru> seb128, I guess I don't navigate by keyboard much.
[16:56] <jbicha> yeah, that badly needs fixing for 3.6, it would have been nice if the new nautilus had landed sooner so we'd have better odds of getting these bugs fixed
[18:26] <robru> good god! not enough hours in the day! I have to go run some errands but when I'm back I intend to start reviewing your merge, mvo
[19:29] <robru> anybody know when mvo is usually on?
[19:29] <kenvandine> earlier
[19:30] <kenvandine> it's friday night for him
[19:30] <robru> I only just now noticed that he signed off a few hours ago, around noon for me
[19:38] <seb128> robru, european office hours, like 9am to 6to8pm european time (utc+2)
[19:39] <seb128> robru, but don't worry much, it's w.e time and you will not get lot of people around, monday is fine for comments ;-)
[19:42] <robru> seb128, yeah, I'm going to start looking at it now just because I don't have much else to work on at the moment
[19:44] <seb128> robru, it's friday evening, enjoy your w.e! ;-)
[19:45] <robru> seb128, I've been unemployed for 4 months, I'm all partied out, it's time for serious work now ;-)
[19:47] <seb128> hehe
[19:48] <robru> also, it's only 3PM here.
[19:48] <robru> and I've only been awake for 4 hours. so really it's friday morning. ;-)
[19:51] <seb128> robru, you can also look at http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/gnome.html
[19:52] <seb128> though most of the fun is coming on monday for GNOME 3.5.90
[19:52] <robru> seb128, can do.
[19:52] <kenvandine> oh great... gnome release the week of FF
[19:52] <seb128> robru, but some of those need updating (alacarte, gdl, anjuta, gnome-sushi, ...)
[19:52] <robru> sounds like we're going to be busy!
[19:52] <kenvandine> seb128, glad you aren't expecting me to help with that :)
[19:53] <seb128> kenvandine, yeah, we would be bored otherwise
[19:53] <seb128> kenvandine, GNOME FF ... AND didrocks is on holidaus
[19:53] <seb128> holidays
[19:53] <kenvandine> oh no!
[19:53] <seb128> he picked the right time :p
[19:53] <kenvandine> how will we get unity in the distro!
[19:53] <kenvandine> :-D
[19:53] <seb128> <-
[19:53] <seb128> :-(
[19:54] <kenvandine> awesome
[19:54] <kenvandine> :)
[19:54] <seb128> didrocks has been kind to let me lot of details and detailed instructions and ready to merge Vcses though
[19:54] <kenvandine> i am very anxious for bamf and unity releases
[19:54] <kenvandine> once these branches get merged
[19:54] <seb128> that better go well
[19:54] <seb128> I will find you otherwise ;-)
[19:55] <kenvandine> they are both in "Needs fixing" status
[19:55] <kenvandine> Trevinho provided great feedback
[19:56] <kenvandine> now waiting on racarr to fix
[19:56] <kenvandine> oh LP, why do you hate me...
[19:56] <kenvandine> now i can't check the MP
[19:56] <kenvandine> they both oops
[19:56] <seb128> :-(
[19:56] <seb128> I newed the gdocs lens
[19:57] <kenvandine> thx
[20:03] <robru> hmmmmmmm
[20:03] <robru> having a bit of trouble with mago, trying to run mvo's test
[20:04] <robru> "You must enable accessibility to use mago
[20:04] <robru> To enable accessibility check 'Enable the Assistive Technologies' in the menu
[20:04] <robru> (System -> Preferences -> Assistive Technologies)"
[20:04] <robru> that sounds like a GNOME2 menu. not sure what I'm supposed to do here.
[20:05] <robru> oh, it only does that as root, that's probably why
[20:06] <robru> what a bizarre system. running it not as root gives permission errors about trying to access /proc, running it as root says accessibility needs to be enabled.
[20:08] <robru> No google, I'm not looking for information about mangos.
[20:15] <robru> anyone care to help me get up to speed with mago here?
[20:18] <robru> got the official lp branch of mago, test_minimal.py has three failures. rubbish.
[20:20] <seb128> robru, I don't know much about it
[20:20] <seb128> is update-manager using it?
[20:20] <robru> yeah
[20:21] <robru> I read through mvo's patch and it looks pretty straightforward to me, so I thought I'd run the test suite and it just pukes out screenfuls of errors.
[20:21] <seb128> mterry, ^ you hacked on update-manager before
[20:22] <mterry> robru, naw, update-manager doesn't really use mago.  Not anymore anyway
[20:22] <mterry> robru, I run tests with nosetests3 in its root directory
[20:22] <mterry> robru, look at debian/rules and debian/tests/* to see how they are run during build
[20:22] <robru> oh, the makefile in the tests directory invokes mago
[20:23] <mterry> robru, yeah I think that is outdated.  I left it there when I was updating the code recently just because I wasn't sure if it was 100% useless yet
[20:23] <robru> ah, ok. well I'm a bit relieved that mago's out of the picture then.
[20:24] <robru> ok, still seeing some errors with nosetests3
[20:24] <robru> OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/proc/1/root'
[20:25] <robru> mterry, am I supposed to run the testsuite as root?
[20:26] <mterry> hm
[20:26] <kenvandine> never!
[20:26] <robru> yeah, that seems like a dumb thing to do, but /proc/1/root isn't exactly a user accessible file, I have no idea why the test suite is looking for it.
[20:26] <mterry> robru, it gets run as root during dep8 execution (which is where a VM running jenkins runs through the tests in debian/tests)
[20:27] <mterry> robru, I forget why that file is accessed
[20:27] <robru> lol, all of mvo's tests are failing for me.
[20:27] <robru> even as root
[20:27] <mterry> robru, is that something that could be changed to not need root?  If so, it would seem like a good change
[20:28] <robru> that would definitely be a good change, but I'm not familiar with it at all. I have no idea what it's checking that file for at all.
[20:29] <robru> def inside_chroot():
[20:29] <robru>     """ returns True if we are inside a chroot
[20:29] <robru>     """
[20:29] <robru>     # if there is no proc or no pid 1 we are very likely inside a chroot
[20:29] <robru>     if not os.path.exists("/proc") or not os.path.exists("/proc/1"):
[20:29] <robru>         return True
[20:29] <robru>     # if the inode is differnt for pid 1 "/" and our "/"
[20:29] <robru>     return os.stat("/") != os.stat("/proc/1/root")
[20:30] <robru> I guess that should be in a try/except at the very least
[20:32] <robru> anyway, seems unrelated to what mvo was working on
[20:33] <robru> I'll have to shoot him an email I guess