[14:55]  * skaet waves
[14:56] <Riddell> hi skaet
[14:56] <skaet> hi Riddell,  :)
[14:57]  * balloons may or may not have just sent his summary
[14:58] <scott-work> hello, skaet , we didn't get an email sent but i'm here for the meeting nonetheless
[14:58]  * skaet didn't see it yet,  but hasn't refreshed in last 30 minutes
[14:58] <Riddell> balloons: I see it
[14:58] <balloons> Riddell, :-)
[14:58] <balloons> hello scott-work !
[14:58] <skaet> hello scott-work,  astraljava sent one.  :)
[14:58]  * stgraber waves
[14:59] <scott-work> skaet: oh good! i looked in my mail but didn't see naything
[14:59] <scott-work> hi balloons
[14:59] <scott-work> heh, i see it now
[14:59] <skaet> :)
[14:59] <popey> \o/ I _just_ beat balloons
[15:00] <skaet> #meeting
[15:00] <skaet> #startmeeting
[15:00] <meetingology> Meeting started Fri Aug 17 15:00:44 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[15:00] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[15:00] <skaet> Agenda (and minute location):
[15:00] <skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-08-17
[15:00] <skaet> .
[15:00] <skaet> Upcoming dates:
[15:00] <skaet> 12.04.1
[15:00] <skaet>     2012/08/20: ReleaseNoteFreeze
[15:01] <skaet>     2012/08/23: Ubuntu 12.04.1
[15:01] <skaet> 12.10
[15:01] <skaet>     2012/08/23: Quantal FeatureFreeze
[15:01] <skaet>     2012/09/06: 12.10 Beta 1
[15:01] <skaet> .
[15:01] <skaet> Work Items:
[15:01] <skaet> 2012/08/10 -  3011 (was 3010  (last  week):   We are behind the trendline for some of the projects.
[15:01] <skaet> There is only 1  weeks left until FeatureFreeze, so getting us back on track would be appreciated.  If something is clearly not going to make it this cycle, please mark it POSTPONED.
[15:01] <skaet> Please help get us back where we should be by making sure https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork is up to date for your tasks.
[15:01] <skaet> .
[15:01] <skaet> .
[15:01] <skaet> Work Items:
[15:01] <skaet> 2012/08/10 -  3011 (was 3010  (last  week):   We are behind the trendline for some of the projects.
[15:01] <skaet> There is only 1  weeks left until FeatureFreeze, so getting us back on track would be appreciated.  If something is clearly not going to make it this cycle, please mark it POSTPONED.
[15:01] <skaet> Please help get us back where we should be by making sure https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork is up to date for your tasks.
[15:01] <skaet> .
[15:01] <skaet> Bugs:
[15:01] <skaet> Quantal: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
[15:01] <skaet> 12.04.1: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/milestone-12.04.1.html
[15:01] <skaet> 12.04.1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=49926
[15:01] <skaet> .
[15:01] <skaet> hmm... that date on the work items should be 2012/08/17..
[15:02] <skaet> Weekly Status Received:
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001741.html - QA - gema
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001742.html - Security - mdeslaur
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001745.html - Kernel - ogasawara
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001746.html - Desktop - seb128 (kenvandine rep)
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001747.html - Lubuntu - gilir
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001748.html - HW Cert - brendand
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001749.html - Edubuntu - stgraber
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001750.html - Ubuntu Studio - astraljava
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001751.html - Xubuntu - astraljava
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001752.html - Kubuntu - Riddell
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001753.html - Linaro - fabo
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001754.html - Foudnations - ogra_
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001757.html - Ubuntu One - joshuahoover
[15:02] <skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001759.html - Server - arosales
[15:02] <skaet> ?? - Community Testing - balloons
[15:02] <skaet> ?? - Product Strategy (Unity) - popey
[15:02] <skaet> ..
[15:02] <skaet> #topic Questions and Comments
[15:03] <skaet> hi all,  welcome.
[15:03] <jdstrand> hi
[15:03] <smartboyhw> Hi
[15:03] <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001760.html  mine
[15:03] <gilir> hi
[15:03] <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001761.html balloons
[15:03] <kenvandine> oh yay... when seb128 asked me to fill in i didn't even think about it being the week before feature freeze :)
[15:03]  * balloons thanks popey
[15:03] <skaet> thanks popey.
[15:04] <skaet> kenvandine, yup.   we'll Feature Feeze at 2100 UTC next Thursday.
[15:04] <skaet> other comments..
[15:04] <skaet> Data Center move didn’t go quite as smoothly as hoped for our buildds,  but i386, amd64, armhf are back on line now.   Powerpc will be back up shortly.   We’ll be respinning the candidates for 12.04.1 today, so look for them to appear on the iso tracker after we make a couple of decisions about some late landing fixes and the safety of their inclusion.
[15:04] <skaet> ..
[15:04] <skaet> any "o/" for questions before I start into my list?  ;)
[15:05] <skaet> astraljava, scott-work, stgraber,, Riddell,   -  any surprises seen from 12.04.1 smoke testing?   All ready for testing when first candidate images start to land?
[15:05] <scott-work> skaet: i am not aware of any problems
[15:05] <stgraber> so far so good for Edubuntu
[15:05] <stgraber> did a few tests yesterday without seeing any issue
[15:05] <stgraber> ..
[15:05] <Riddell> skaet: all good as far as it has been reported to me
[15:06] <skaet> thanks.    glad to hear it.  :)
[15:06] <skaet> ..
[15:06] <skaet> As we head into feature freeze and bugs are going to be more important...   spotting some concerns about following our process for this release.
[15:07] <skaet> arosales, QA reports running into https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/1028453,  for a couple of weeks now,  but there doesn’t seem to be much activity on it.   Is it planned to be fixed?  (still has rls-q-incoming tag on it and isn’t targetted to quantal)
[15:08] <skaet> kenvandine,  also noticed  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brltty/+bug/1022927 - still has rls-q-incoming tag on it, and not targetted to quantal.  Is it planned to be fixed?
[15:08]  * arosales looking
[15:08] <kenvandine> skaet, i don't know
[15:08] <kenvandine> but i'll check into it
[15:08] <skaet> thanks kenvandine  :)
[15:08] <skaet> other one I spotted was:
[15:08] <skaet> Riddell in your bug list:  http://goo.gl/ESmab  there are about half without an importance set,  could you update those?  (wanting to know which are critical/high, and there looks like there may be a couple in the undecideds)
[15:09] <Riddell> yeah I need to do some bug triage
[15:09] <skaet> thanks Riddell.  :)
[15:09] <skaet> ..
[15:09] <skaet> gema,  bootspeed is showed significant reduction between 8/11 and 8/12 - was this is this a result of transition from test environement to real values, or further change expected?  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/boot-speed/acer-veriton-02/index.html
[15:10] <gema> skaet: the high timings were due to a problem with the environment
[15:10] <gema> we are rerunning the tests so that we have good data, now that we got to the bottom of things
[15:10] <gema> on old images
[15:10] <skaet> is the data from 8/12 onwards considered good?
[15:10] <arosales> skaet: I'll follow up on bug 1028453. We should be able to fix that hopefully before beta1
[15:11] <skaet> thanks arosales.    gema, ^
[15:11] <gema> skaet: do not consider anything definitive until we've caught up
[15:11] <gema> skaet: there is a bad run there from the 0813
[15:11] <skaet> gema,  fair 'nuf.  :)   thanks.
[15:11] <gema> np
[15:11] <skaet> ..
[15:12]  * skaet wonders if any one else has questions?
[15:12] <balloons> o/
[15:13] <Riddell> o/
[15:13] <skaet> go balloons
[15:14] <balloons> ok I've got a few questions.. I'll start with the ARM images. Right now none of the daily builds since alpha 3 have worked to my knowledge
[15:14]  * ogra_ tests daily ... 
[15:15] <balloons> I'm trying to find the latest bug reports.. but I just wanted some feedback on a couple bugs causing issues
[15:15] <balloons> is it working for you?
[15:15] <ogra_> desktop was broken due to a general ubiquity bug for a few days (encryption page was getting in the way), beyond that ll images worked fine
[15:15] <skaet> gema, ^ any input?
[15:15] <gema> skaet: nope, we haven't been testing ARM
[15:16] <ogra_> but as i stated in my mail, from yesterday on desktop testing is moot, we dont have GLES drivers so you wont be able to use the desktop
[15:16] <ogra_> (the installer doesnt use any 3D elements, so you will be able to install but will not be able to run a live session or a desktop session on the installed system
[15:16] <ogra_> )
[15:16] <balloons> ogra_, we're getting kernel panics upon reboot
[15:16] <balloons> ahh.. so that might be the driving issue then
[15:17] <ogra_> balloons, bug # ?
[15:17] <ogra_> i definitely dont have any panics
[15:17] <ogra_> ..
[15:17] <balloons> bah I can't seem to find it right now.. at least the kernel panic issue
[15:17] <balloons> my issue was the wifi drivers not working, which the kernel folks fixed.. I still need to test again to see if it worked
[15:18] <ogra_> well, there will be a new kernel soon
[15:18] <ogra_> afaik it was just uploaded
[15:19] <balloons> ok, well, I guess what's the best way to communicate with you on the issues the community finds and I can confirm?
[15:19] <ogra_> (read: completely new from scratch ... vs the old cruft we used from precise with some hacks)
[15:19] <balloons> ogra_, ok, good to know!
[15:19] <ogra_> balloons, #ubuntu-arm generally has some distro arm people hanging around
[15:19] <balloons> I can gather up the shortlist of bugs I know is causing grief
[15:20] <balloons> ok, I'll chat more after, so I don't kill the meeting runtime
[15:20] <balloons> thanks ogra_
[15:20] <ogra_> and even though there is no official team anymore, the ubuntu-arm team on LP still exists, if you subscribe ubuntu-arm to bugs, the team gets mail notifications ;)
[15:20] <ogra_> ..
[15:20] <balloons> ..
[15:20] <balloons> ohh
[15:21] <balloons> lol, umm, I also wanted to ask colin what was going to happen with ubuquity before ff.. if anything
[15:21] <balloons> cjwatson, are you about ^^
[15:21] <skaet> ogra_,  do you know the plans?  or see if cjwatson can comment?
[15:22] <ogra_> skaet, nope, i know that xnox is working hard on the lvm and encryption bits but i would have to ask for status
[15:22] <ogra_> nothing beyond whats mentioned in the mail ...
[15:22] <ogra_> ..
[15:22] <skaet> ogra_, ack
[15:22] <cjwatson> balloons: I'm not particularly working on it at the moment, although xnox is continuing to make progress on LVM/crypto work
[15:23]  * xnox 0/
[15:23] <cjwatson> ah yes, ogra_ said that too :)
[15:24] <xnox> after ff, there will be more changes to the manual partitionaire. The automatic installation is done.
[15:24] <xnox> lvm, ecryption is supported.
[15:24] <xnox> no raid.
[15:25] <xnox> ..
[15:25] <skaet> xnox,  so FFE planned for the changes to the manual partitioners?
[15:25] <Riddell> xnox: interesting, we should look at doing that in the kde frontend sometime presumably
[15:25] <balloons> xnox, ok great. I'll want to make especially sure we have testcases for that
[15:25] <balloons> ..
[15:25] <xnox> skaet: there was an email out about it to you from slangasek. And I still need to follow up on it with more details.
[15:26] <skaet> xnox,  ok.
[15:26] <xnox> skaet: initially, after feature-freeze I will continue to implement bits and that see if they are ready to be incorporated into the installer.
[15:26] <xnox> and if they are, then possibly there might be changes landing after the ff.
[15:27] <xnox> Riddell: yes. The automatic partitioning is done, and you can start implementing the Qt front-end changes.
[15:28] <skaet> xnox,  please make sure well documented, so that we can make sure testing lines up with it.
[15:29] <skaet> will follow up on the rest by email (when I scrub my inbox to find that message :/ )
[15:29] <skaet> ..
[15:29] <xnox> skaet: yes. I have started discussions to enable automatic testing of ecryption in jenkins, and I will be adding manual iso test cases soon as well (next week)
[15:29] <xnox> ..
[15:29] <skaet> xnox,  thanks!  :)
[15:30] <skaet> Riddell,  your turn now
[15:30] <Riddell> Canonical server are having some downtime this weekend, will that affect CD build?
[15:30] <ogra_> doesnt it already  ?
[15:30] <stgraber> Riddell: I don't think so, the builders have been moved yesterday
[15:31] <ogra_> yeah
[15:31] <Riddell> that makes life easier
[15:31] <ogra_> well, there is still enough to do for them and bad things can always happen :)
[15:32] <ogra_> ..
[15:32] <skaet> cron jobs are running again at least.
[15:32] <skaet> ..
[15:32] <Riddell> ..
[15:33] <skaet> kenvandine,  the new xserver breaking NVIDIA,   who's on point to get this resolved?
[15:33] <stgraber> Riddell: just confirmed, nusakan is on the "stay in GS2" list and the rest was already moved, so not expecting any CD build failure this weekend.
[15:33] <stgraber> ..
[15:33] <skaet> thanks stgraber.  :)
[15:33] <skaet> ..
[15:34] <kenvandine> skaet, i think tseliot
[15:34] <skaet> Given the scope of machines potentially involved and beta 1 coming up,  is there plans to roll back if we don't have a fix in place?
[15:35] <skaet> before beta 1 freeze?
[15:35] <kenvandine> not that i am aware of
[15:35] <kenvandine> but i'll make a note of it for seb128
[15:35] <skaet> thanks kenvandine :)
[15:35] <skaet> ..
[15:35] <ogra_> iirc the plan (picked up from another channel) is to rebuild with the 13 ABI dropped, that will make the packlage uninstallable until it is fixed
[15:35] <ogra_> ..
[15:36] <skaet> thanks ogra_
[15:37] <skaet> popey,  will this likely impact your team's development?
[15:37] <popey> which bit skaet ?
[15:37] <skaet> (ie. do a lot of them have nvidia boxes?)
[15:37] <popey> we have a mix
[15:37] <skaet> new xserve not working with NVIDIA
[15:37] <popey> mostly not nvidia
[15:37] <kenvandine> unity developers rely heavily on nvidia
[15:38] <smartboyhw> I like AMD
[15:38] <ogra_> they could all just switch to pandaboards !
[15:38] <kenvandine> last time this happened, unity lost like 3 weeks of productive development time
[15:38] <ogra_> oh, wait, no driver for that either ...
[15:38] <ogra_> ..
[15:38]  * skaet resists getting into the unity 2D/3D discussion...
[15:38] <kenvandine> ogra_, you're funny :)
[15:39] <popey> skaet, most of my guys are intel/amd people, unity guys afaict are mostly intel
[15:39]  * ogra_ likes how we fill the chasm with a landfill of non-GL capable computers to make our users get over it 
[15:39] <popey> unless kenvandine knows better
[15:39] <ogra_> :P
[15:39] <ogra_> ..
[15:39] <popey> ..
[15:39] <kenvandine> popey, unless things changed... mostly nvidia
[15:39]  * xnox wants to know the post code location of that landfill.....
[15:40] <kenvandine> DBO, jay, macslow, etc
[15:40] <kenvandine> mostly the GL guys
[15:40] <popey> ok
[15:40] <kenvandine> they all live and breathe nvidia
[15:40] <skaet> kenvandine,  thanks,  yeah,  please raise the possibility of reverting with seb128
[15:41] <kenvandine> skaet, noted
[15:42] <skaet> ..
[15:43] <skaet> popey,  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/1008918 is showing up on our tracking list of one that needs to be fixed, but I'm not seeing it on your list of bugs working on.   Can you look at adding it to the active list?
[15:44] <popey> i see lukasz requested more info
[15:44] <skaet> gema, ^
[15:44] <popey> ok skaet
[15:44] <popey> ..
[15:45] <gema> skaet: ?
[15:45] <skaet> gema,  bug on unity QA reported is waiting on an question answer
[15:46] <ogra_> looks like thats against unity-2d though ... isnt that unsupported now ?
[15:46] <gema> skaet: no worries we will get that moving
[15:46] <skaet> thanks gema,  popey.  :)
[15:47]  * skaet wondering if any one else has questions?
[15:48] <skaet> if not...
[15:48] <stgraber> just got a quick one
[15:48] <skaet> just a reminder we Feature Freeze for 12.10 at 2100 next Thursday.     Release Note Freeze for 12.04.1
[15:48] <skaet> on 2100 next Monday.
[15:48] <skaet> go stgraber.  :)
[15:49] <stgraber> for kernel, I noticed that bug 1021471 was reproduced by Clint yesterday, would be good if it could be prioritized and looked into as it's affecting quite a few people running lxc apparently
[15:49] <skaet> ogasawara, ^
[15:49]  * ogasawara will take a look
[15:49] <stgraber> I poked about it a few meetings back but we stopped getting reproducers since then until yesterday when Clint poked me about it
[15:49] <stgraber> ..
[15:49] <stgraber> ogasawara: thanks
[15:50] <skaet> #endmeeting
[15:50] <meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Aug 17 15:50:28 2012 UTC.
[15:50] <meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-17-15.00.moin.txt
[15:50] <meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-17-15.00.html
[15:50] <xnox> thanks
[15:50] <smartboyhw> thanks
[15:51]  * ogra_ hugs skaet 
[15:52] <skaet> Thanks stgraber, popey, gema, ogra_, xnox, cjwatson, kenvandine,  Riddell , scott-work, ogasawara , balloons, gema, gilir, smartboyhw
[15:52] <popey> \o/
[15:52] <popey> thanks skaet
[15:52] <kenvandine> thanks skaet
[15:52]  * skaet hugs ogra_ back.  :)   
[15:52] <skaet> have a good weekend all.
[15:52] <kenvandine> you too
[15:52] <ogra_> you too !
[15:52] <stgraber> thanks!
[15:53] <skaet> thanks arosales
[15:53] <smartboyhw> YEAH!
[15:53]  * skaet just noticed missed on earlier thanks 
[15:54] <arosales> thanks skaet for chairing :-)
[15:55] <jdstrand> bye!
[15:55] <skaet> thanks jdstrand  :)
[15:56] <smartboyhw> Bye!
[15:56] <seb128> skaet, kenvandine: I'm back, reverting what?
[15:56] <kenvandine> nvidia
[15:56] <seb128> I had a chat with the #ubuntu-x guys about nvidia this morning
[15:56] <kenvandine> breaking the ABI or something
[15:56] <skaet> seb128, xserve until we get an nvidia fix
[15:56] <seb128> skaet, kenvandine: reverting 60 xorg packages? ahah, good one
[15:56] <kenvandine> remember the last time this happened?
[15:57] <seb128> yes, that's why I went to rant on #ubuntu-x
[15:57] <kenvandine> and the unity team lost 3 weeks of work?
[15:57] <seb128> they told me it's #ubuntu-release who wanted to copy to quantal
[15:57] <seb128> I'm not totally happy that #ubuntu-release forced the copy to quantal knowing that was broken
[15:57] <seb128> I know the argument is "proposed is not meant for avoid breakages"
[15:57] <seb128> but still
[15:58] <kenvandine> yeah
[15:58] <seb128> anyway tseliot said he had a driver update and he would aim at verifying it works and uploading to quantal today
[15:58] <kenvandine> it was some level of protection though
[15:58] <kenvandine> ok
[15:58] <kenvandine> good
[15:58] <kenvandine> thx seb
[15:58] <kenvandine> seb128, the other question skaet had was about bug 1022927
[15:58] <kenvandine> tagged rls-q-incoming but not targetted
[15:59] <Laney> proposed isn't meant to be used that way indeed, but since it /was/ discovered, we should have used that data ...
[16:00] <seb128> Laney, indeed, that's my point
[16:00] <Laney> but I don't blame whoever did the copy
[16:00] <Laney> someone should have asked for it to be removed from proposed
[16:00] <seb128> #ubuntu-release decided to break quantal nvidia users for the sake of making an argument about not using proposed this way
[16:00]  * xnox pulled one borked update out of -proposed and didn't let it be copied into quantal-release. But infinity was friendly enough to me & made the removal
[16:01] <seb128> whoever did the copy knew it would screw nvidia users
[16:01] <Laney> pretty sure it wasn't intentional
[16:01] <seb128> I pointed it to them last week
[16:01] <skaet> seb128, who in #ubuntu-release?
[16:02] <seb128> skaet, I don't know, but yesterday I read infinity making a comment about taking a axe and breaking xorg
[16:02] <Laney> if launchpad would stop oopsing then i could find out
[16:02] <seb128> so I guess him ;-)
[16:02] <Laney> yeah that's right
[16:02] <skaet> seb128,  ack.
[16:03] <Laney> I don't think he was referring to breaking it for users to teach people a lesson though.
[16:03] <Laney> but I'll leave you to discuss it ;-)
[16:03] <seb128> and I'm sure infinity knew nvidia was broken
[16:03] <Laney> ttyl
[16:03] <seb128> he discussed that transition with tjaalton this week and I pointed the nvidia issue last week
[16:03] <seb128> Laney, see you
[16:08] <ScottK> I think it's flat out wrong to gate a free software development project on availability of binary blobs.
[16:24] <seb128> ScottK, it's flat wrong to break nvidia users without at least publishing a warning before about what is going to happen and what they should do
[16:25] <ScottK> Nah.  People who depend on binary blobs are stuck running at their own risk.
[16:25] <ScottK> Even post release they can get broken without warning.
[16:26] <seb128> no they are not
[16:26] <seb128> or find me where we there is a project statement saying so
[16:27] <seb128> we have a checkbox in our installer
[16:27] <ScottK> It's inherent in running a blob.
[16:27] <seb128> and it's not flagged as "this option might stop working any time"
[16:27] <seb128> no it's not
[16:27] <ScottK> There's no way we can guarantee things will work.
[16:27] <seb128> it's easy enough to deal with those
[16:27] <seb128> we control when we do xorg abi transitions
[16:27] <seb128> and we know the state of the drivers at the time we decide
[16:28] <ScottK> Where is it stated as policy that X updates in the development release require non-free support before landing?
[16:29] <seb128> ScottK, in the "no regression, usable every day" statement
[16:29] <ScottK> The only way to do that is never land anything.
[16:29] <ScottK> That's marketing, not policy.
[16:30] <seb128> I've argued enough, we perfectly knew the state of that transition
[16:30] <seb128> it's not even something you can argue over
[16:30] <ScottK> Yes and I think it was fine.
[16:30] <ScottK> How long would you have waited?
[16:30] <ScottK> Past feature freeze?
[16:30] <seb128> until at least somebody dropped the abi: 13 from the nvidia driver
[16:30] <seb128> which is a buggy claim
[16:31] <seb128> and lead those user to get the upgrade
[16:31] <seb128> rather than having it put on hold
[16:31] <seb128> it's a one line fix
[16:31] <seb128> I don't buy your "we couldn't do that"
[16:31] <ScottK> For how long has someone not done that?
[16:32] <ScottK> If it's so easy, then I don't understand why it's not done.
[16:32] <seb128> that's an orthogonal issue and worth figuring as well yes
[16:32] <ScottK> I agree if there's an easy fix, it should be done and should have been done.
[16:33] <ScottK> All I was aware of was "not compatible" which generally means an upstream update of the blob is needed.
[16:33] <ScottK> Those I think there's no point in waiting on.
[16:33] <seb128> that's another discussion and I disagree with you
[16:34] <seb128> or we should at least announce that properly when it happens and we knew about it
[16:34] <seb128> some people did a pretty bad communication job here
[16:47] <ScottK> I won't argue about communication.  I agree about warning.  I disagree about waiting.