[16:28] <Raju_> Hi everybody this is natarajan, new to the ubuntu manual group
[18:18] <PatrickDickey> Did I miss the meeting? (I haven't checked the time yet. :S )
[18:18] <carsten_g> Hi Patrick
[18:18] <carsten_g> No, it is tomorrow. :-)
[18:25] <PatrickDickey> LOL That figures.
[18:25] <PatrickDickey> It's just an introduction meeting for new authors, right?
[18:28] <carsten_g> Yes
[18:28] <carsten_g> Do you join?
[18:33] <PatrickDickey> I will if I'm awake. I'm working third shift (7 pm to 5 am) tomorrow, so I'll be sleeping around the time of the meeting.
[18:38] <carsten_g> Oh I see. Don't let ring the alarm for the meeting, the sleep is more important. :-)
[18:43] <PatrickDickey> It'll all depend on how late I stay up tonight, I guess. I went to bed early enough last night, that I'm up already.
[18:56] <PatrickDickey> Carsten, off hand, do you remember the defaults for the texlive installation?  For the symlinks? Tejas Kale posted to the mailing list that his installer doesn't have any defaults listed when he goes to create the symlinks (Option O then L).
[19:06] <carsten_g> one moment, I'll have a look
[19:07] <godbyk> It's strange that it isn't showing the defaults.
[19:07] <godbyk> I think they should all be subdirs of /usr/local by default
[19:07] <godbyk> (/usr/local/bin for binaries, /usr/local/lib for libraries, etc.)
[19:08] <godbyk> There's also a way to get the symlinks created after the installation is finished, but I'd have to look it up again. tlmgr knows how.
[19:08] <godbyk> From his email it sounds like he's already removed the first installation, though. :(
[19:09] <carsten_g> I see the defaults
[19:10] <carsten_g> /usr/local/bin for binaries
[19:10] <carsten_g> /usr/local/man for manpages
[19:10] <carsten_g> /usr/local/info for info
[19:12] <godbyk> Does anyone else find Launchpad to be confusing or is it just me?
[19:13] <carsten_g> No, you are not alone. :-)
[19:13] <godbyk> Thanks, carsten_g. :)
[19:14] <carsten_g> But I think, it would be better, if Launchpad would be translatable
[19:14] <godbyk> At this point, it'd be immensely helpful if they'd just put little edit buttons next to every field they show. That way I don't have to go digging through myriads of links to figure out where that setting is at.
[19:14] <godbyk> Launchpad can't be translated?  Really?!
[19:16] <carsten_g> No, as far as I know.
[19:16] <godbyk> Somehow, the oneiric branch has a review 'team': https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/oneiric
[19:17] <carsten_g> See https://translations.launchpad.net/launchpad
[19:17] <godbyk> Okay, to fix the symlinks using tlmgr (I found an old email I sent):  sudo /usr/local/texlive/2012/bin/x86_64-linux/tlmgr path add
[19:18] <godbyk> (might have to change the x86_64-linux bit to match your system architecture)
[19:18] <godbyk> carsten_g: That's disappointing.
[19:19] <carsten_g> There are some bugs for that, but I see no development in this direction, see https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/3896
[19:19] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 3896 in launchpad "Launchpad itself is not translatable in Launchpad" [Low,Triaged]
[19:19] <godbyk> Heh.. classy.
[19:22] <carsten_g> Hey, how or what is manualbot?
[19:22] <PatrickDickey> I figured out what Tejas was doing. He hit "O", and it doesn't show the defaults. But, when he hits "L", it will.
[19:23] <godbyk> PatrickDickey: Ah! That makes sense.
[19:23] <godbyk> carsten_g: It's an IRC bot. It can look up bug summaries and other useful tidbits.
[19:24] <carsten_g> ah, I see.
[19:25] <godbyk> I think it may know some stuff about LaTeX, too, but I don't recall.
[19:25] <carsten_g> Is there a link with explanations of that bot?
[19:27] <godbyk> carsten_g: I don't have one right off. It's a supybot, though.
[19:27] <godbyk> I should track down its owner. (I can't remember who it was that set it up now..)
[19:27] <godbyk> Hmm.. this doesn't bode well..
[19:28] <godbyk> I updated all the TeX Live packages last night and now I can't build the manual.
[19:28] <PatrickDickey> You can get some minor information by messaging it. /msg manualbot help will give you a start.
[19:28] <godbyk> It looks like xindy might hate me.
[19:28]  * PatrickDickey ruh roh... looks at his texlive installation
[19:29] <PatrickDickey> I'm updating it right now with the 2012 installation.
[19:30]  * PatrickDickey has a long ways to go before he knows if it's trashed...  7:02:15. I'm on 16 of 2520 right now.
[19:34] <carsten_g> Huuh, yesterday and today I had the same "Problem" with TeX Live 2012
[19:34] <carsten_g>  :-))
[19:35] <carsten_g> First I tried the upstream installation and forgot the symlinks^^
[19:36] <carsten_g> So I deleted it completely and tried the quantal backports.
[19:36] <carsten_g> This works now , xindy too. :-)
[19:37] <PatrickDickey> So it might be something with the upstream version?
[19:37] <carsten_g> Well, I think my problem was the forgotten symlinks.
[19:38] <carsten_g> I did not test it with them again.
[19:38] <PatrickDickey> Gottcha.
[19:38] <PatrickDickey> There's a gui for the installer, right? I think you were the one that mentioned it to John (c7p)
[19:39] <carsten_g> Yes
[19:40] <carsten_g> Who knows, why these symlinks are not activated by default... :-/
[19:41] <PatrickDickey> It's probably something that they forgot to do (or have a good reason for) and while everyone's annoyed by it, no one bothers to point it out to them.
[19:44] <godbyk> Well, you could set the installation directory to /usr instead of /usr/local and then you wouldn't need the symlinks.
[19:45] <godbyk> I tried rewriting the instructions a while back to make it clearer that you needed to create the symlinks but people still seem to miss that note.
[19:45] <godbyk> I'm not sure what to do about it. Are the instructions unclear? Are people not reading the instructions?
[19:48] <carsten_g> well, it will be the last thing.
[19:49] <godbyk> carsten_g: I'm going to work on updating the install-pkgs.sh script to check the tlmgr symlinks and also work with the TL 2012 PPA packages. I just wanted to give you a heads-up.
[19:50] <carsten_g> I think, this is a very important point (the symlinks) and for that the corresponding section should be more dominant on the website
[19:50] <godbyk> carsten_g: Suggestions on how to improve the instructions?
[19:51] <godbyk> brb
[19:51] <carsten_g> And the installation will start and finish without problems. If you forget the symlinks, you will notice that when it is to late...
[19:51] <carsten_g> Well, maybe there can be such a warning symbol, as we have it in the manual.
[19:53] <carsten_g> Yes, this would be a good help, if the install-pkgs.sh script can detect and fix the missing symlinks
[19:53] <PatrickDickey> I just sent off an email to the tug mailing list asking about the symlinks. It'll be interesting to see what reason they have.
[19:54] <carsten_g> Great, please post the response on our list
[19:54] <PatrickDickey> I'll do that. I probably won't get anything until tomorrow morning. I set my subscription to a daily digest.
[21:16] <carsten_g> godbyk: are you still online?
[21:17] <godbyk> carsten_g: yep
[21:19] <carsten_g> I found an issue which may affect all translations...^^
[21:19] <carsten_g> DId you already compile a translated version?
[21:22] <carsten_g> Then you will see at 6 positions in the document a straight sign (looks like a square with an cross included), for example on the blank page before chapter 2 "The Ubuntu desktop"
[21:23] <godbyk> Which edition and language are you looking at?
[21:24] <carsten_g> I found out, that we have six tex files which start with an BOM (Byte order mark), see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_order_mark
[21:24] <carsten_g> ... German version precise-e2
[21:24] <carsten_g> but this affects other languages too.
[21:24] <godbyk> Those are still around? I manually removed a few of those that I found. i must've missed some.
[21:26] <carsten_g> Yes, look in the pot file, line 2251
[21:27] <carsten_g> There you see the list of affected files.
[21:29] <godbyk> it looks like there are 6 files that contain U+FEFF:
[21:30] <carsten_g> yep
[21:30] <godbyk> software-management/software-management.tex:1:﻿% Chapter 5 - Software and Packaging/Software Management
[21:30] <godbyk> ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop.tex:1:﻿%Chapter 2 - c7p, hannie
[21:30] <godbyk> working-with-ubuntu/viewing-and-editing-photos.tex:1:﻿%written by Luke Jennings ubuntujenkins@googlemail.com
[21:30] <godbyk> working-with-ubuntu/linuxaltapps.tex:1:﻿%proposed location Chapter 3
[21:30] <godbyk> working-with-ubuntu/readingcomposingemail.tex:1:﻿%Author: Che Dean
[21:30] <godbyk> working-with-ubuntu/microblogging.tex:1:﻿% written by Luke Jennings ubuntujenkins@googlemail.com
[21:33] <carsten_g> I think we should fix this and update the pot file again on Launchpad
[21:35] <carsten_g> Because you get an extra translation entry for that sign, see https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise-e2/+pots/ubuntu-manual/de/255/+translate
[21:37] <carsten_g> Hi Nautu
[21:39] <godbyk> carsten_g: I'll do that. It'll probably take a day or two for the updated .pot to make it through the translation queue, though.
[21:40] <carsten_g> ok
[21:41] <carsten_g> The question is, how can we avoid this in the future?
[21:41] <godbyk> The next step is for us to figure out who put the BOMs there and what editor they were using. Then we can help them (and others) ensure that their editors aren't inserting BOMs.
[21:42] <carsten_g> Yes
[21:43] <carsten_g> And can we make a check in the Makefile which look for the BOMs?
[21:45] <godbyk> carsten_g: We can add a check to the Makefile, yes. I'll do that.
[21:45] <godbyk> carsten_g: As for preventing it, we should ensure that everyone has their editors set to the proper settings (i.e., not to insert BOMs into our .tex files).
[21:46] <godbyk> I've uploaded the new .pot file and pushed all the changes to bzr.
[21:46] <carsten_g> Yes, that's right
[21:47] <carsten_g> I use gedit, and see not such a setting...
[21:47] <godbyk> Normally, the BOM gets inserted into UTF-16-encoded files.
[21:47] <carsten_g> Has your editor such a setting?
[21:48] <godbyk> But some editors may include it with UTF-8, too.
[21:48] <godbyk> The setting is likely just the file encoding when you go to file > save as..
[21:49] <godbyk> it looks like most of the BOMs were inserted in the oneiric repository.
[21:49] <godbyk> natty only has a couple of them.
[21:49] <godbyk> but oneiric has a dozen.
[21:50] <godbyk> maverick doesn't have any.
[21:50] <godbyk> I misspoke.. oneiric only has half a dozen.
[21:50] <godbyk> (I had copies of the files so they were counted twice.)
[21:51] <godbyk> You might look in the oneiric repository at the working-with-ubuntu/viewing-and-editing-photos.tex file. Look at the diffs at each revision and see when the BOM was introduced.
[21:54] <carsten_g> A I see, Rick Fosburgh has done it in rev 48
[21:54] <manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/48 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 48
[21:55] <carsten_g> be quiet manualbot :-)
[22:17] <carsten_g> So, I say good night
[22:18] <carsten_g> See you tomorrow evening in the meeting.