popey*yawn* morning05:04
popey\o/ weekend06:07
emhm, yes it is isn't it.06:27
MartijnVdSWoo, BBC also posted the _time_ at which they'll broadcast the new Doctor Who episode!06:50
MartijnVdSNext week, 19:2006:50
popeystrictly starts too i think/06:54
MartijnVdSpopey: http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/guide/bbc/london/2012090106:54
MartijnVdSdoesn't look like it.. there's Proms on 206:54
MartijnVdSpopey: it's starting in NL though.. with lots of B and C-list "celebrities"06:55
MartijnVdSpopey: http://avro.nl/strictlycomedancing/ in case you're interested :)06:57
MartijnVdSuhr.. wut07:21
MartijnVdSI get BBC Radio 1-4 on DVB-T as well now?!07:21
matttMartijnVdS: you should just move here07:21
matttthen you can get everything all the time :P07:22
MartijnVdSmattt: DVB-S works fine for me :)07:22
christelGOOD MORNING07:58
* MartijnVdS 's javascript h4xx0r1ng worked! \o/08:23
jacobwyou used a hack saw?08:28
* jacobw wonders if googe's pdf reader can translate contents yet08:54
brobostigongood morning everyone,09:41
brobostigonmorning jacobw09:42
bigcalmUg morning09:51
brobostigonmorning bigcalm09:54
bigcalmHave I missed out on any fun this week?10:23
olyAnyone here playing Guild Wars 2 on ubuntu out of intrest ?10:26
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
davmor2Happy weekend all11:38
penguin42and a happy long weekend it is11:39
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
raphasaurusdoes anyone have experience with the 3 dongle?12:30
raphasaurusIt appears to require some software installation for it to work. On windows it involves hitting the 'run' key but don't know how to get the dongle to work on Ubuntu12:31
penguin42in principal the network manager should take care of it12:34
penguin42it should show up as a Mobile Broadband device12:35
popeywhich specific 3 dongle?12:38
popeymost "just work"12:38
popeyThe Huawei ones tend to work best. I have the E353 HSDPA+ which is pretty good12:39
* MartijnVdS switched to a Mifi. Wifi always works.12:39
popeyyeah, i dont use mine much anymore12:39
popeytend to share out the phone more often12:39
MartijnVdSbut I agree, that's not a solution for the current problem :)12:40
raphasaurusok, thanks, unfortunately, I don't have the dongle here in front of me, but just thought I'd ask12:40
popeyraphasaurus, generally googling the exact model and "ubuntu" turns up something12:40
raphasauruspopey, k, thanks I will do that.12:40
* popey fiddles with openwrt12:42
popeyhope to get it doing bridging12:42
MartijnVdSpopey: that's the easy bit :)12:42
MartijnVdSpopey: if you need help, shout :)12:42
MartijnVdSraphasaurus: good luck!12:42
popeyok, so the plan is to put this AP in the middle of the house for best reception, connected to an ethernet over power device12:43
popeyit wont be the dhcp server12:43
MartijnVdSpopey: Like mine then :)12:43
MartijnVdSlet me find the /etc/config12:43
popeyit has some config on it already for when it was a backup AP12:43
popeyfor doing 3g sharing12:43
popeyneed to rip that out i suspect12:43
popeyheh, the ESSID is OggCamp1112:44
MartijnVdSpopey: what kind of device is it?12:44
popeyNetgear WNDR370012:44
popeywoohoo, found a tomboy note with some notes in from the past12:44
MartijnVdSpopey: can you pastebin /etc/config/network and /etc/config/wireless? (you can censor passwords if you like :))12:45
popeyonce I can get into it!12:45
popeyremembered WPA key12:46
raphasauruscurrently dual-booting windows/ubuntu12:48
MartijnVdSpopey: are you in yet? :)12:49
raphasaurusmy mother says to keep windows and asks "why" use ubuntu when  you have windows already. I 'm not sure what to say. Is there a website I can point her to?12:49
popey"It's better"12:50
popey"I prefer it"12:50
popeynot quite MartijnVdS12:51
MartijnVdSpopey: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/netgear/wndr3700 -- there's a failsafe mode you can start in12:51
popeyits okay, it's just a logistics/cable issue12:51
popeymy ac100 has no ethernet port12:51
popeyso i can either be online or connected to the AP in question12:51
popeyso hard to pastebin12:52
popeybut not impossible12:52
popeyhave to keep switching AP back and forth12:52
MartijnVdSyou can't connect over wifi?12:53
popeyi can12:53
popeybut the ac100 has only one wifi card12:53
popeyso i cant be online and be connected to the ap12:53
MartijnVdSah.. you can't connect the AP to a switch then?12:53
popeyi can but it gets an ip then disconnects12:53
MartijnVdSthat doesn't help :)12:54
popeyi saw it get an ip from the other AP and then drop it12:54
popeyyay, am in12:55
popeywill copy/paste everything and then pastebinit it in a mo12:55
popeyMartijnVdS, does it lock you out if you incorrectly login a few times?12:58
MartijnVdSpopey: no12:58
popeyi got in just now, but now it's giving me connection refused12:59
MartijnVdStelnet or ssh?12:59
* popey reboots it12:59
MartijnVdSIn that case.. I'd re-flash without keeping settings first :)12:59
popeyi cant even recall how to flash it :)13:00
MartijnVdSthe openwrt wiki knows :)13:00
popeynvm, am in13:00
MartijnVdSin /etc/config/wireless,, in the "wifi-iface" section, check the "option network"13:00
MartijnVdSthen look for that in /etc/config/network13:01
MartijnVdSand which ports are in that network13:01
MartijnVdS("config interface <network name here>")13:01
popeyhang on...13:02
penguin42popey: USB-ether?13:02
popeyoh yeah, i have one of them on my desk :)13:02
popeywill fail, same ip range on both ap13:02
MartijnVdStime to get a second laptop ;)13:03
popeythats why I am using the ac10013:03
popeytyping to you on thinkpad13:03
MartijnVdSthe wifi interface is in the "lan" network (= bridge)13:04
MartijnVdSthat network also contains the "eth0.1" port, which I guess to be the switch13:04
MartijnVdSso anything on the "switch" ports is on the same network as the WLAN13:05
MartijnVdSyou can change the "option proto static" to "option proto dhcp"13:05
MartijnVdSand remove the ipaddr/netmask lines13:05
MartijnVdSthen it DHCPs on that port as well13:05
MartijnVdS(but static address = useful if it drops DHCP, as you claim it does)13:05
MartijnVdSyou can remove the "interface wan" for ppp0, I guess13:06
MartijnVdSthe entire block13:06
MartijnVdSyou can disable its DHCP server using.. wait..13:08
popeywould it be easier to just revert to clean?13:08
popeybah, disconnected from it13:08
MartijnVdSthat would help, I guess.. the OpenWRT wiki also has lots of docs about the config file format13:08
MartijnVdSand http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/recipes/bridgedap13:09
popeyis there a copy of the default config?13:13
popeyi mean, in that bridgedap guide it says that it assumes default config13:14
popeythat was easy13:24
popeyphone connected via ap chained to other AP with dhcp from the backend one13:24
popeythanks MartijnVdS13:24
MartijnVdSpopey: remove everything from /overlay and reboot to get defaults back13:28
AzelphurTwitter is joining the Linux foundation http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/24/twitter-joining-the-linux-foundation/ :D13:37
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
GentileBenMartijnVdS: did you expect Van Persie to move to Utd?13:48
MartijnVdSGentileBen: I have no idea13:50
MartijnVdSwho is he?13:50
MartijnVdSwhat is utdf?13:50
christelMartijnVdS: a footballer and manchester united ;)14:15
christela dutch one at that14:15
MartijnVdSchristel: meh football :)14:15
christeli believe he plays in your national squad but has played professionally for arsenal i think for a few years before moving to man u14:16
christelit is a bit sad that i know this!14:16
MartijnVdSI like to avoid football :)14:42
Azelphuranyone know how to start a new X screen to VNC into with a specific resolution?14:53
jacobwexport to VNC with a particular resolution?14:56
Azelphurjacobw: ?14:58
penguin42Azelphur: You mean start a VNC X session with a given res - how do you normally start it (there are a few ways)14:58
Azelphurpenguin42: I don't normally start it, that's why I'm asking :P14:59
penguin42Azelphur: Do you have one of the vncserver packages installed?15:00
AzelphurI installed vnc4server just now15:00
penguin42hmm, not used that one before15:00
popeyvncserver --geometry15:00
penguin42Azelphur: should be vncserver -geometry 1920x108015:00
Azelphurvncserver  :1  -depth 16  -geometry 1280x736 got it running with this, only problem now is that I only seem able to connect to it locally15:01
popeyit should be accessible on the LAN15:02
Azelphurit doesn't seem to mention a port anywhere15:02
penguin42Azelphur: You mean X or vnc connect?15:02
Azelphurpopey: that's the one, ty :D15:02
AlanBellwould that use llvmpipe?15:04
* penguin42 doubts it15:04
penguin42hmm I guess it would have to - is there any docs on it?15:08
popeysurely not, vnc has been around and worked without a 3d video driver since well before llvmpipe15:17
penguin42popey: Yeh but it looks like Mesa on the client side is the one with llvm, so within a vnc session it should use it15:21
guest-34929hii al15:26
guest-34929how i can save 20 sec of video file from 10 back and 10 forwrord?15:27
penguin42guest-34929: kdenlive lets you edit video files - if that's what you mean?15:27
penguin42how to install it however is a different matter15:28
guest-34929penguin42: i want the camera will take a fideo file alll athe time.. but when it get a triger, it need to save 20 secendes of video file, 10 secends before the triger and 10 secends after the triger.15:30
penguin42ah right, motion detect type of thing ?15:31
penguin42guest-34929: Might be worth trying the 'motion' package15:31
guest-34929penguin42: i have debian based linux15:33
guest-34929penguin42: how i can see the camera?15:34
penguin42guest-34929: Well, motion is in the ubuntu package repo - and it looks like it just came from debian - so sudo apt-get install motion should install it; seeing a camera, the simplest program is 'cheese'15:34
guest-34929penguin42: but it only text mode15:35
penguin42what's only text mode?15:36
guest-34929my linux15:36
penguin42guest-34929: well displaying a video camera in text mode is not going to be very useful; install X15:37
penguin42(there probably is an SDL based thing or aa - but that's not that useful is it)15:37
guest-34929how i can do it?15:37
guest-34929apt-get install x?15:37
penguin42guest-34929: It looks like you have some more basic 'how do I start using debian' type quesitons - and you're probably better asking that on a debian help channel15:38
guest-34929but ubuntu = debian?15:39
guest-34929debian = ubuntu server15:39
penguin42guest-34929: no15:39
penguin42guest-34929: They're related but not the same15:39
penguin42guest-34929: Ubuntu is based on debian but with a whole chunk of changes, especially when it comes to installation and X setup15:40
guest-34929penguin42: ok. it work now on gnome desktop envairment15:54
* penguin42 grrrs at Android - a nice green tick next to 'Application not installed' with no explanation16:26
smarqleInstalling Ubuntu Restricted Extras gave me pause for thought. I haven't seen a non-games site that needed Java for years now. I used to use Think Free, but Zoho made that redundant some time back16:27
* hamitron cuddles his wp7 phone16:27
popeyits not just games that use java16:28
popeymany corporate internal sites use java16:28
smarqleI know that's true in theory. I just can't think of recent example I've come across16:29
smarqleI wasn't counting Intranets no. That would be the main case now?16:30
popeyi suspect so16:30
AlanBellhttp://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/events/events_for_adults/Lates.aspx this looks like an interesting thing, free evening stuff at the Science Museum on the last wednesday of each month16:30
penguin42smarqle: even then my experience is that they tend to have very specific versions needed16:30
christelAlanBell: i love the science museum16:30
popeyhttp://doodle.com/6vcb8a6rcgcewhf6 not impressive jam turnout16:31
AlanBellsquillions of things use serverside java with jboss/tomcat whatever16:31
christelapparently those evening dos are tons of fun too16:31
popeyAlanBell, you on up to date quantal?16:32
popeycan you replicate/confirm bug 1041583 ?16:32
lubotu3Launchpad bug 1041583 in Unity "Dash home opens files by default, should be applications?" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/104158316:32
penguin42popey: Might help if it was on: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/1901/detail/16:33
AlanBellpopey: works for me right now, but I have updates to do, will do them and test again16:34
smarqleHow can I decide if something is a bug or just works in a way I don't like? I don't like that you can't remove your lastfm station history in Rhythmbox. Is that  bug or just a feature I don't like?16:34
popeyi'm not putting it there till we know how many people will come16:34
penguin42popey: Actually there don't seem to be many things listed on there16:35
AlanBellpopey: unable to reproduce16:40
AlanBelltried on a guest session to in case it was oddness in my profile somewhere16:41
smarqleSo why would a bug like that only happen for a very few people? Not for. just tried it16:49
smarqleAnother bug I was thinking of reporting is that pidgin-twitter doesn't work. That's not a big deal because pidgin-microblog does, but surely the old one should have been removed from the apt-cache search?16:53
LaneyI need ideas17:18
LaneyI just moved house and after reconnecting my PC at the new place it doesn't turn on17:18
Laneynothing at all happens when I press the button17:19
LaneyI tried resetting the CMOS and changing the battery because I thought it was on the way out17:19
Laneyalso shorting the power pins incase the button was broken17:19
Laneythere's a light on the motherboard which is illuminated to indicate it is getting power17:19
soreauLaney: That doesn't mean the power supply is still good17:20
soreauFirst thing you should suspect is broken PSU17:20
popeyI'd unplug all power juicy things like drives17:45
soreauIf the PSU isn't functioning correctly, I wouldn't try to use it at all17:46
Laneythe P183 is a beautiful case for getting to stuff ♥17:48
penguin42well you don't know it's the PSU - it's a good guess, but it's also possibly a bad peripheral - so strip it down to the basics17:48
Laneyi'll try and find someone to lend me one17:48
popeyi have one you can borrow but I'm probably not nearby17:53
Laneynot unless you moved to the midlands :-)17:54
penguin42computers don't like being switched off and moved; it's unsettling; they get used to things, just have a nice spot, with a nice view....18:00
MartijnVdSpenguin42: tell that to my laptop18:03
penguin42MartijnVdS: Laptops can travel a lot when they're young and still have that wonderlust18:04
brobostigonadvice, when is the right time, to appear, at music venue,impromptu, on saturday.?18:05
brobostigonrephrase, when is a correct time, to appear?18:08
MartijnVdSwhen does it open?18:09
brobostigonas we speak.18:09
brobostigonMartijnVdS: they will be playing all night.18:09
brobostigonMartijnVdS: it is rumoured dave pegg will be around.18:10
* brobostigon better get ready he thinks.18:11
MartijnVdSI tend to show up about 15 minutes before the door opens... so I might not be the best person to ask :)18:11
MartijnVdSStaff will love it if there's a customer if you're early (and one of few customers) :)18:11
brobostigonMartijnVdS: think being,i dont know an exact time, which makes things difficult.18:19
christeli dunno, i am always late for everything18:20
brobostigoni tend to like be early.18:20
brobostigonchristel: my autistic side.18:22
brobostigonok, bbl, have fun everyone.18:23
christelhave fun brobostigon :)18:23
brobostigonyou also christel :)18:23
christeli shall! :)18:23
MartijnVdSchristel: No fun allowed in this channel!18:24
MartijnVdSOnly serious Ubuntu discussion!18:24
christelaw boo :(18:25
* MartijnVdS plays with his new shiny toy18:29
MartijnVdSMade it myself, with jQuery(-UI) and HTML5!18:29
MartijnVdS(I built/maintain a "paid wifi" infrastructure for a large camping, and the ~8 year old Perl scripts + HTML templates were in need of a refresh)18:30
MartijnVdSSo I rebuilt it as one HTML page which calls the server-side scripts (I've modified the scripts to return simple bits of JSON)18:31
MartijnVdSit looks a lot cooler too18:31
MartijnVdSonly a few features left to build18:32
MartijnVdS(stats, forceful logout, stuff like that)18:33
AzelphurI just had a cool idea too, I was trying to come up with a way to make links in conky clickable18:34
Azelphurand now I've ended up with a hacked together semi-functional HTML/CSS powered conky type thing18:34
MartijnVdSI'm really impressed with how easy jquery-ui is18:35
MartijnVdSactually, I'd always dismissed javascript as a silly language.. but it's cooler than I thought :)18:36
penguin42MartijnVdS: The syntax is awful, but it's in so many places and wired in to so much that it can do a lot18:54
MartijnVdSpenguin42: I think it's not strict enough (and I'm a Perl coder ;))18:57
matttpeople still use perl?18:58
MartijnVdSmattt: there was even a conference this week18:58
MartijnVdSmattt: in Frankfurt18:59
matttlike a highschool reunion?18:59
MartijnVdSmattt: More like "Look at the cool things you can do with Perl now".. also it's not as ugly anymore if you know what you do :)19:00
mattti'm just kidding19:00
matttwhen i first started playing w/ linux, everyone used perl19:00
matttbut brb, dinner time ;P19:01
MartijnVdSyeah that's "old" perl :)19:01
MartijnVdSnow people look at you weird if you don't at least "use warnings;" and "use strict;"19:01
* SuperEngineer still has "learn Perl in 24 hours" on dsk... hmmmm brain thinks...all those years back??19:04
* mgdm has that on dead tree19:05
mgdmnever did quite get around to it19:06
SuperEngineer[but thenre again - I wrote DOS batch files that people couldn't belive - yes they were that good19:06
SuperEngineer[&yes - it was long ago]19:06
MartijnVdSheh, I remember that time too19:06
MartijnVdSbut I was in school so nobody cared19:06
SuperEngineerMartijnVdS: ;)19:06
SuperEngineer[I was in a professional job - guess I showing my age here]19:07
MartijnVdSSuperEngineer: your FIRST job?19:09
SuperEngineerMartijnVdS: unfortunately not... clue: I used to do Unix before Linux19:09
MartijnVdSso, you used to catch the dinosaur to work?19:10
* SuperEngineer shakes walking stick19:10
jacobw /o\ perl19:11
MartijnVdSjacobw: /o\ Perl from <200519:12
SuperEngineerMartijnVdS: I used to be [& still am] a protagonist [read annoyance] to that firm for reminding them the world had updated itself19:12
SuperEngineer[& there was a *nix now beginning an 'L']19:12
MartijnVdSjacobw: what's wrong with that? That's _easy_ :)19:13
jacobwi really hate the documentation style19:13
MartijnVdSMost things were written long ago19:14
jacobw"this thing is kind of closures, and kind of like this other term that only used in the perl world, hey, let's move on the next topic"19:14
MartijnVdSjacobw: try this: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlreftut.html19:14
MartijnVdSjacobw: blessing = making a reference special, so you can call methods on it :)19:14
MartijnVdS(you bless it with a class name!)19:15
MartijnVdSjacobw: if you don't understand, add "tut" to the name ;)19:15
jacobwall new perl developments have an odd thing in common19:16
jacobwthey make it more like python :D19:16
SuperEngineer...did anyone guess I might be over 21? What gave it away?  Don't answer... I know the answer ;)19:17
* jacobw is 2119:17
SuperEngineerjacobw: happy birthday19:17
MartijnVdSjacobw: this is good :)19:17
MartijnVdSSuperEngineer: it's the beard.19:17
SuperEngineerdouble ;) ;)19:17
jacobwis it a neckbead?19:17
christelHAPPY BIRTHDAY YOUNG jacobw <319:18
* SuperEngineer had a beard once.. never again thanks19:19
christeli have never quite managed to grow a good one19:19
SuperEngineer[all those flees & mosquitoes! -yuk]19:19
MartijnVdSSuperEngineer: but.. extra meals!19:20
MartijnVdSchristel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard ?19:20
SuperEngineerchristel: so grow a bad one - call it "my baaaadboy beard"19:20
jacobwmy birthday was nearly 3 month ago ;)19:21
christeli struggle with growing a bad one too!19:21
christeljacobw: aw19:21
jacobwi didn't say i was 21 _today_19:21
MartijnVdSjacobw: you are still 21 though, right?19:21
MartijnVdSso you ARE 21 today19:21
christeli wish i was 2119:21
SuperEngineerjacobw: no - *i* did!19:21
MartijnVdSchristel: you're 18, right?19:21
christelMartijnVdS: i love you19:22
* jacobw hides in a corner19:22
SuperEngineer& if I did - you're 21 2day19:22
jacobwthat doesn't seem like an answer christel :D19:22
jacobwunless loving MartijnVdS implies being 1819:22
* SuperEngineer wonders about MartijnVdS / christel relationship19:23
AlanBellthe fountain of youth \o/19:23
jacobwthat'd be a great superpower, if a person loves you they become young19:23
jacobwthat'd be a better episode of buffy :p19:24
christeljacobw: i am of such an age that anyone who suggests that i might be younger than middleaged (!) automagically gain my love for life ;)19:24
SuperEngineerif a person loves you, *you* become young - surely19:24
MartijnVdSSuperEngineer: so THAT's why you're old?19:24
jacobwouch :o19:25
christelaw boo, noone loves me.. this is why i am so old :(19:25
jacobwchristel: aw :)19:25
SuperEngineernah - I 27 - i'm loved plenty19:25
SuperEngineer[mostly by me]19:25
* SuperEngineer never learnt to count higher than 27 ;)19:25
SuperEngineer[don't need to on my planet]19:26
christelAlanBell: MartijnVdS is the fountain of youth?19:26
MartijnVdSjacobw: Awww19:26
* christel plans a trip to holland19:26
AlanBelloh no :(19:26
SuperEngineerchristel: make sure you shave before going to Holland!19:27
AlanBellI was at an event with Neil Armstrong as a speaker19:27
christelSuperEngineer: i er, uhm, ok i will19:28
SuperEngineerAlanBell: the real Neil Armstrong?  me jealous19:28
MartijnVdSAlanBell: he didn't do that often19:28
AlanBellSuperEngineer: yeah, 3 years ago19:28
AlanBellMartijnVdS: no, it was *really* rare, someone knew him personally and asked19:29
AlanBellerr, 5 years ago19:29
MartijnVdSAlanBell: BBC broadcast "Being Neil Armstrong" a few weeks ago19:30
* mgdm had just been reading through some space-related books of late, he featured in a couple19:30
mgdm(Failure Is Not An Option, notably)19:30
SuperEngineerAlanBell: so you've both met a spaceman & work for a spaceman -  pretty damn cool19:30
AlanBellI don't work for a spaceman19:30
* SuperEngineer giggles19:31
Laneyhow likely is this jam to happen?19:31
* Laney would be interested but would like to buy train tix in advance19:32
christelpopey was investigating space at canonical hq wasn't he?19:33
christelooh! i pay no attention do i!19:35
christelLaney: i assume it will happen :)19:36
popeyit will if people decide to come19:37
Laneyyou have agreement to host it there?19:37
Dave2mmm, jam19:37
Laneywould be nice to work out of the office for a day anyway19:38
popeywith some caveats19:38
Laney- no neckbeards19:38
Laney- sandals must be worn without socks19:38
popey - no debian developers19:38
* Laney alt-f419:38
* jacobw hugs debian19:39
AlanBellI was so tempted to put sandals on over my socks the other day, too hot for shoes and too cold for no-socks. I resisted the temptation.19:39
jacobwi personally see nothing wrong with that combination19:40
christeli would have lost all respect for you :o19:40
SuperEngineerchristel: +119:41
Laneyhttp://open.spotify.com/track/6LZB5SNqBMMwM5KHKdCzgy good tune itt19:42
SuperEngineersocks / sandals???? mathematians tried the equation & ansered it with the result - "yuk"19:42
SuperEngineerhere's a strange one - I use single click in Nautilus to move around,,,  after converting a whole bunch of files fron wav to mp3 I was involuntarily back on double click. had to reboot to regain control.19:42
SuperEngineer...who asked for my prefs to converted at the same time - not me!19:44
SuperEngineer[mind you cpu was at 100% useage during conversion - so I suppose it's congrats actually to Ubuntu for not getting any more confused than that19:46
popeyAlanBell, you might be interested in http://accessiblecomputingfoundation.org/19:53
popeythere is a current discussion on mumble19:53
Dave2mumble on a domain containing "teamspeak"? How confusing.19:54
Azelphurmumbleteamspeak :p19:55
popeyAlanBell, you're echoing20:04
* AlanBell changes microphone20:07
extrasolarI would like to go to a linux user group in london20:47
extrasolarbut am I too young?20:47
extrasolarI'm about 2020:47
Dave2Probably not.20:49
Dave2I was younger when I first started going to a LUG.20:49
StrontiumCatRIP Neil Armstrong :(20:53
penguin42extrasolar: LUGs tend to have a wide range of people20:53
extrasolarHopefully people can relate to me20:54
popeyextrasolar, you are not too young21:00
extrasolarin that case21:04
extrasolarI'm confident I'll go21:04
Azelphurextrasolar: I went to the Ubuntu release party when I was 18 lol21:05
extrasolarhow was it?21:06
Azelphuractually I think I was a few days before 18 and not technically allowed in since it was a pub, but I went anyway21:06
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
Azelphurextrasolar: was fine, although I imagine a LUG would be different to a release party :)21:06
extrasolarfair enough21:08
mattt20 too young?21:10
matttpeople are running businesses at 20 :)21:10
* AlanBell is too young21:11
matttAlanBell: isn't it your bed time21:11
AlanBellor too old, I can't remember which21:11
extrasolarso are LUGs drinking clubs?21:17
jacobwer, if the drink is tea, then yes :p21:18
jacobwLUGs do have a range of people21:20
jacobwi don't know what to set $CLASSPATH to find java.*21:20
matttextrasolar: were you home schooled?21:21
extrasolarI wasn't schooled at all :P21:21
matttextrasolar: whatchootalkinbout?21:21
mattttho to be fair, LUGs have kind of gone the way of perl21:22
* mattt looks at MartijnVdS 21:22
* BigRedS ponders rising to it :)21:23
BigRedSextrasolar: Gllug is21:25
BigRedSit's largely equivalent to the London Perl Mongers, though. The membership is nigh on identical, but all the arranging of pubs is on london.pm's list21:25
extrasolarOh i see21:27
jacobwhmm, updates-alternatives openjdk-6-java cannot find java.lang, this can't be normal21:29
BigRedSThat said, since funtimes with the gllug list a while ago I've not received any mail. It might've moved without my following...21:30
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
AzelphurSigh, Amazon keeps telling me they'll get back to me and then never getting back to me22:47
Azelphurrude :(22:47
smarqleAzelphur: Customer service dept?22:50
Azelphursmarqle: yea22:50
AzelphurI asked them for a microsoft tax refund, they said they'd get back to me before the 17th, they didn't so I messaged them and they said they'd get back to me before the 23rd and they didn't :(22:52
penguin42Azelphur: In the uk ?22:52
Azelphurthink I'll give em one more chance and then hit up the complaints department22:52
Azelphurpenguin42: yep22:52
penguin42Azelphur: Since when can you get a MS refund in the UK?22:53
Azelphurpenguin42: since forever afaik?22:53
penguin42Azelphur: Have you ever succeeded?22:53
Azelphurpenguin42: never tried, theopensourcerer has done it multiple times and he's UK afaik22:53
penguin42Azelphur: I suspect your problem is that it's gone into the support org and hit the 'He wants to do WHAT?'22:54
Azelphurpenguin42: yea, pretty much lol22:54
smarqleA lot of these companies really drag their heels on that one. There was case recently about it where someone sued a vendor and won. I wish I could remember and link to it22:54
Azelphursmarqle: yea there's a few cases like that22:54
Azelphurpenguin42: I just quoted EU consumer law at them22:54
penguin42Azelphur: Which particular EU consumer law is that?22:55
AzelphurThe Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumer regulations 2002 requires that the retailer replace the faulty item, or if that is impossible provide you with a refund. The Sale of Goods Act gives you --> the right to partially reject items <--. Essentially you assert your 'statutory rights"22:56
penguin42can you arbitrarily reject it - or only if you find fault?22:57
penguin42Azelphur: I mean if you bought a car and decided you didn't need the passenger seat, could you carefully take it out, return it to the vendor and ask for a refund?22:57
Azelphurpenguin42: http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/08/pressure-mounts-on-windows-tax/ is the page on the subject :)22:57
smarqleI don't think that's the law that won the case. I'm sure it was some element of contract law, as long as you don't start the computer in windows. First start has to be from a live CD and then you haven't seen the EULA so you aren't bound by it22:58
Azelphursmarqle: lol simply seeing an EULA doesn't make you bound to it, you actually have to agree :P22:59
Azelphursmarqle: By reading this you are legally required to send me all your monies :p22:59
penguin42Azelphur: Oh I see, hmm saying you're not agreeing to the EULA, because you hadn't seen it up front - are you sure the Amazon page which had it on sale didn't say that there was a license with it?22:59
smarqleYeah but as I understand it after windows has started you have already received the goods23:00
Azelphurpenguin42: *shrug*23:00
smarqleIf windows never starts you haven't and you were charged for something you never received23:00
Azelphursmarqle: when you buy an OEM laptop first boot asks you to accept the license23:00
AzelphurI simply didn't accept it and then stuck a Ubuntu CD in there :p23:01
DaraelSince the Windows setup process on first boot for an OEM-installed machine explicitly states "To use Windows, you must agree to this EULA", one has not received usable goods unless one then agrees to the EULA, surely?23:01
smarqleYeah that's what I mean. If you make the first boot from the CD then you never received windows, in the legal sense of the word23:02
AzelphurDarael: yep :P23:02
DaraelIt usually then has another, below, saying "To use your /computer/, you must agree to *this* EULA", and it's a licence agreement that doesn't mention using the computer at all, just the use of the vendor-installed bloatware.23:03
Azelphuryea, the windows license also says that it can be returned to the manufacturer23:03
Azelphurso either amazon or lenovo has to cough up :p23:03
smarqleI think you can win on the sale of goods act but you get bogged down in what constitutes a sale and what is a licence which is too expensive for most people to pursue23:03
smarqleAnd I think the key word their is manufacturer; ie not the vendor23:04
smarqlewrong there sorry23:04
Azelphurso if I loose at amazon I just go bully lenovo instead23:04
penguin42Azelphur: How much are you hoping to get back?23:05
Azelphurpenguin42: I dunno23:05
Azelphurmaybe £30 or something23:05
penguin42Azelphur: If I was them I'd tell you to return the whole thing23:06
Azelphurpenguin42: they tried that, I declined.23:06
penguin42Azelphur: So, what do you reckon to the car analogie?23:07
Azelphurpenguin42: not really the same, you can take the car seat out and resell it, the car seat is also crucial to the cars function and is a non-optional component23:08
Azelphurwhere as with a Windows license, I can't resell it, it's not a requirement of the machines function, and it's thrust upon me :(23:08
penguin42Azelphur: The car seat's not crucial - if you are single and you never want to use the other seat23:08
smarqleReading Google News, I just noticed all the cases were won against manufacturers and none against vendors23:08
Azelphurpenguin42: then ya can take it out and sell it :D23:08
penguin42Azelphur: By your argument though it would be easier for me to return it to the vendor23:09
smarqleTwo against Lenovo ironically, who defended each case though :(23:09
penguin42Azelphur: Actually, thinking about it, the difference here is the fact you're claiming it's faulty; and I'm not with the car seat23:10
Azelphurgood point :)23:10
penguin42Azelphur: Now, if I was Amazon I'd bury in the T&C's somewhere a 'if you're buying something with software, then you agree to the license on the software that you know that you're buying'23:11
smarqleReading more it looks like no company has willingly done this; they all fought it into the courts :(23:11
smarqleIt's funny though. I tend t buy from local suppliers and each one knocked £25 off for a bare bones system. It seems like it's only a big issue for big companies23:13
penguin42smarqle: For big companies it's just 'a standard model' that they;'re selling, with everything in23:13
penguin42smarqle: Dell will do it if you order via their business side for most of their desktops/servers (or did a few years ago when I used to order from them)23:14
smarqleI notice with Dell, many of their refurbs already come OS free. I rarely buy new. I'm too much of a treehugger :)23:15
penguin42smarqle: I'm too much of a tight b*****23:15
Daraelpenguin42: I think defining a purchase as including agreeing to the licence when the person can't necessarily read the licence before buying is illegal on the grounds of unconscionability.23:16
smarqleWell there's that too penguin42 :)23:16
DaraelThat's probably why they don't do /that/.23:16
penguin42Darael: Then provide a link; I think MS's stuff is all on their site23:16
smarqleI'm pretty sure, it would also run contrary to the Distance Selling act Darael23:17
DaraelThat's the thing, though - not everyone's is, and to put it in the Ts&Cs, they'd have to make it practical for /any/ purchase including software.23:17
smarqleSoftware is already exempt but the hardware can't be23:17
Daraelsmarqle: That sounds likely, yes.23:17
penguin42Darael: Interesting point - do you want to try and get a refund on the BIOS if you put coreboot on?23:18
smarqleI'll tell you something very odd though. I bought from the old Mesh a few years ago and they knocked £30 off the price but according to their saleswoman, they couldn't actually prevent me receiving the preinstalled Windows I hadn't paid for; now that's weird23:20
shaunocould you put coreboot on without using the bios/23:20
* penguin42 hands shauno a jtag lead23:20
shaunonot sure my mac has headers for that ;)23:21
Daraelpenguin42: If I could get the price of the BIOS pinned down, and it seemed enough to be worth it, why not?  Could be that there's more of an argument to it being part of the product, though?23:21
* penguin42 hands shauno a soldering iron23:21
DaraelIt'll have somewhere that one can be soldered in, at least, shauno - Apple will want to be able to refurbish it after they convince you to buy a new one :P23:21
penguin42Darael: That's kind of my point though; it's a very grey line as to what's part of the product; why does it matter if the OS is stored on disk and the BIOS in flash; especially if it was an SSD23:22
smarqleI've definitely read that firmware is a grey area and there are always terms stating you flash it at your own risk. It was tested in court with that Wii jailbreak that let you play videos as I recall23:23
Daraelpenguin42: Yeah.  The OS is definitely on the not-part-of-product end of that grey-area, and the BIOS toward the other side, but where the line should go seems to be anybody's guess.23:23
smarqleHaving said that the US case went against Apple so who knows23:24
DaraelFlashing the BIOS (or other firmware) in any manner but an "approved" one is a reasonably fast way to invalidate one's warranty, but it shoudn't be blockable by software licensing.23:24
penguin42Darael: If you think about a phone where it's all in the same flash chip then it seems odd to discriminate - why discriminate ona  PC?23:25
smarqleBut isn't only part of the ROM writeable on a PC whereas all the card is on a phone? I'm splitting hairs but…23:26
Daraelpenguin42: If it looked to be worth the effort in terms of the monies one would get back, I'd be absolutely in favour of trying to get a refund on the BIOS if one used a JTAG connector to install coreboot instead.23:27
smarqleI think the way forward is really open hardware in the end23:27
DaraelGenuinely open hardware would indeed be nice.23:27
penguin42it would; it's proving difficult to get/make23:28
smarqleI've used Linux a few times but I'm only now reading about the philosophy. It's a great idea if only it can be made to stick23:28
smarqleBut there are so many powerful vested interests ranged against it :(23:30

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