[05:04] <popey> *yawn* morning
[05:29] <em> morning
[05:52] <MartijnVdS> \o
[06:07] <popey> \o/ weekend
[06:27] <em> hm, yes it is isn't it.
[06:50] <MartijnVdS> Woo, BBC also posted the _time_ at which they'll broadcast the new Doctor Who episode!
[06:50] <MartijnVdS> Next week, 19:20
[06:54] <popey> ooh
[06:54] <popey> strictly starts too i think/
[06:54] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://www.bbc.co.uk/tv/guide/bbc/london/20120901
[06:54] <MartijnVdS> doesn't look like it.. there's Proms on 2
[06:55] <MartijnVdS> popey: it's starting in NL though.. with lots of B and C-list "celebrities"
[06:57] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://avro.nl/strictlycomedancing/ in case you're interested :)
[07:21] <MartijnVdS> uhr.. wut
[07:21] <MartijnVdS> I get BBC Radio 1-4 on DVB-T as well now?!
[07:21] <mattt> MartijnVdS: you should just move here
[07:22] <mattt> then you can get everything all the time :P
[07:22] <MartijnVdS> mattt: DVB-S works fine for me :)
[07:58] <christel> GOOD MORNING
[08:07] <popey> correct
[08:23]  * MartijnVdS 's javascript h4xx0r1ng worked! \o/
[08:28] <jacobw> you used a hack saw?
[08:54]  * jacobw wonders if googe's pdf reader can translate contents yet
[09:41] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:42] <jacobw> morning
[09:42] <brobostigon> morning jacobw
[09:51] <bigcalm> Ug morning
[09:54] <brobostigon> morning bigcalm
[10:23] <bigcalm> Have I missed out on any fun this week?
[10:26] <oly> Anyone here playing Guild Wars 2 on ubuntu out of intrest ?
[11:38] <davmor2> Happy weekend all
[11:39] <penguin42> and a happy long weekend it is
[12:30] <raphasaurus> hi
[12:30] <raphasaurus> does anyone have experience with the 3 dongle?
[12:31] <raphasaurus> It appears to require some software installation for it to work. On windows it involves hitting the 'run' key but don't know how to get the dongle to work on Ubuntu
[12:34] <penguin42> in principal the network manager should take care of it
[12:35] <penguin42> it should show up as a Mobile Broadband device
[12:38] <popey> which specific 3 dongle?
[12:38] <popey> most "just work"
[12:39] <popey> The Huawei ones tend to work best. I have the E353 HSDPA+ which is pretty good
[12:39]  * MartijnVdS switched to a Mifi. Wifi always works.
[12:39] <popey> yeah, i dont use mine much anymore
[12:39] <popey> tend to share out the phone more often
[12:40] <MartijnVdS> but I agree, that's not a solution for the current problem :)
[12:40] <raphasaurus> ok, thanks, unfortunately, I don't have the dongle here in front of me, but just thought I'd ask
[12:40] <popey> raphasaurus, generally googling the exact model and "ubuntu" turns up something
[12:40] <raphasaurus> popey, k, thanks I will do that.
[12:42]  * popey fiddles with openwrt
[12:42] <popey> hope to get it doing bridging
[12:42] <MartijnVdS> popey: that's the easy bit :)
[12:42] <popey> oh?
[12:42] <MartijnVdS> popey: if you need help, shout :)
[12:42] <raphasaurus> ok
[12:42] <raphasaurus> bye
[12:42] <MartijnVdS> raphasaurus: good luck!
[12:43] <popey> ok, so the plan is to put this AP in the middle of the house for best reception, connected to an ethernet over power device
[12:43] <popey> it wont be the dhcp server
[12:43] <MartijnVdS> popey: Like mine then :)
[12:43] <popey> yay
[12:43] <MartijnVdS> let me find the /etc/config
[12:43] <popey> it has some config on it already for when it was a backup AP
[12:43] <popey> for doing 3g sharing
[12:43] <popey> need to rip that out i suspect
[12:44] <popey> heh, the ESSID is OggCamp11
[12:44] <MartijnVdS> popey: what kind of device is it?
[12:44] <popey> Netgear WNDR3700
[12:44] <popey> woohoo, found a tomboy note with some notes in from the past
[12:45] <MartijnVdS> popey: can you pastebin /etc/config/network and /etc/config/wireless? (you can censor passwords if you like :))
[12:45] <popey> once I can get into it!
[12:45] <popey> \o/
[12:46] <popey> remembered WPA key
[12:46] <popey> "popeyisawesome"
[12:46] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[12:48] <raphasaurus> currently dual-booting windows/ubuntu
[12:49] <MartijnVdS> popey: are you in yet? :)
[12:49] <raphasaurus> my mother says to keep windows and asks "why" use ubuntu when  you have windows already. I 'm not sure what to say. Is there a website I can point her to?
[12:50] <popey> "It's better"
[12:50] <popey> "I prefer it"
[12:50] <raphasaurus> :)
[12:51] <popey> not quite MartijnVdS
[12:51] <MartijnVdS> popey: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/netgear/wndr3700 -- there's a failsafe mode you can start in
[12:51] <popey> its okay, it's just a logistics/cable issue
[12:51] <popey> my ac100 has no ethernet port
[12:51] <popey> so i can either be online or connected to the AP in question
[12:52] <popey> so hard to pastebin
[12:52] <popey> but not impossible
[12:52] <popey> have to keep switching AP back and forth
[12:53] <MartijnVdS> you can't connect over wifi?
[12:53] <popey> i can
[12:53] <popey> but the ac100 has only one wifi card
[12:53] <popey> so i cant be online and be connected to the ap
[12:53] <MartijnVdS> ah.. you can't connect the AP to a switch then?
[12:53] <popey> i can but it gets an ip then disconnects
[12:54] <MartijnVdS> that doesn't help :)
[12:54] <popey> i saw it get an ip from the other AP and then drop it
[12:55] <popey> yay, am in
[12:55] <popey> will copy/paste everything and then pastebinit it in a mo
[12:58] <popey> MartijnVdS, does it lock you out if you incorrectly login a few times?
[12:58] <MartijnVdS> popey: no
[12:59] <popey> hmm
[12:59] <popey> i got in just now, but now it's giving me connection refused
[12:59] <MartijnVdS> telnet or ssh?
[12:59] <popey> ssh
[12:59]  * popey reboots it
[12:59] <MartijnVdS> In that case.. I'd re-flash without keeping settings first :)
[13:00] <popey> i cant even recall how to flash it :)
[13:00] <MartijnVdS> the openwrt wiki knows :)
[13:00] <popey> nvm, am in
[13:00] <MartijnVdS> in /etc/config/wireless,, in the "wifi-iface" section, check the "option network"
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> then look for that in /etc/config/network
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> and which ports are in that network
[13:01] <MartijnVdS> ("config interface <network name here>")
[13:02] <popey> hang on...
[13:02] <penguin42> popey: USB-ether?
[13:02] <popey> oh yeah, i have one of them on my desk :)
[13:02] <popey> duh
[13:02] <popey> will fail, same ip range on both ap
[13:03] <MartijnVdS> time to get a second laptop ;)
[13:03] <popey> thats why I am using the ac100
[13:03] <popey> typing to you on thinkpad
[13:03] <popey> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1166198
[13:04] <MartijnVdS> the wifi interface is in the "lan" network (= bridge)
[13:04] <MartijnVdS> that network also contains the "eth0.1" port, which I guess to be the switch
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> so anything on the "switch" ports is on the same network as the WLAN
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> you can change the "option proto static" to "option proto dhcp"
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> and remove the ipaddr/netmask lines
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> then it DHCPs on that port as well
[13:05] <MartijnVdS> (but static address = useful if it drops DHCP, as you claim it does)
[13:06] <MartijnVdS> you can remove the "interface wan" for ppp0, I guess
[13:06] <MartijnVdS> the entire block
[13:06] <popey> yeah
[13:08] <MartijnVdS> you can disable its DHCP server using.. wait..
[13:08] <popey> would it be easier to just revert to clean?
[13:08] <popey> bah, disconnected from it
[13:08] <MartijnVdS> that would help, I guess.. the OpenWRT wiki also has lots of docs about the config file format
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/uci#configuration.files
[13:09] <MartijnVdS> and http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/recipes/bridgedap
[13:11] <popey> ta
[13:13] <popey> is there a copy of the default config?
[13:14] <popey> i mean, in that bridgedap guide it says that it assumes default config
[13:24] <popey> woooot!
[13:24] <popey> that was easy
[13:24] <popey> phone connected via ap chained to other AP with dhcp from the backend one
[13:24] <popey> \o/
[13:24] <popey> thanks MartijnVdS
[13:28] <MartijnVdS> popey: remove everything from /overlay and reboot to get defaults back
[13:37] <Azelphur> Twitter is joining the Linux foundation http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/24/twitter-joining-the-linux-foundation/ :D
[13:48] <GentileBen> MartijnVdS: did you expect Van Persie to move to Utd?
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> GentileBen: I have no idea
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> who is he?
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> what is utdf?
[13:50] <MartijnVdS> -f
[14:15] <christel> MartijnVdS: a footballer and manchester united ;)
[14:15] <christel> a dutch one at that
[14:15] <MartijnVdS> christel: meh football :)
[14:16] <christel> hehe
[14:16] <christel> i believe he plays in your national squad but has played professionally for arsenal i think for a few years before moving to man u
[14:16] <christel> it is a bit sad that i know this!
[14:42] <MartijnVdS> I like to avoid football :)
[14:44] <jacobw> fußball
[14:53] <Azelphur> anyone know how to start a new X screen to VNC into with a specific resolution?
[14:56] <jacobw> export to VNC with a particular resolution?
[14:58] <Azelphur> jacobw: ?
[14:58] <penguin42> Azelphur: You mean start a VNC X session with a given res - how do you normally start it (there are a few ways)
[14:59] <Azelphur> penguin42: I don't normally start it, that's why I'm asking :P
[15:00] <penguin42> Azelphur: Do you have one of the vncserver packages installed?
[15:00] <Azelphur> I installed vnc4server just now
[15:00] <penguin42> hmm, not used that one before
[15:00] <popey> vncserver --geometry
[15:00] <penguin42> Azelphur: should be vncserver -geometry 1920x1080
[15:01] <Azelphur> vncserver  :1  -depth 16  -geometry 1280x736 got it running with this, only problem now is that I only seem able to connect to it locally
[15:02] <popey> it should be accessible on the LAN
[15:02] <Azelphur> it doesn't seem to mention a port anywhere
[15:02] <penguin42> Azelphur: You mean X or vnc connect?
[15:02] <popey> 5901
[15:02] <Azelphur> VNC
[15:02] <Azelphur> popey: that's the one, ty :D
[15:04] <AlanBell> would that use llvmpipe?
[15:04]  * penguin42 doubts it
[15:08] <penguin42> hmm I guess it would have to - is there any docs on it?
[15:17] <popey> surely not, vnc has been around and worked without a 3d video driver since well before llvmpipe
[15:21] <penguin42> popey: Yeh but it looks like Mesa on the client side is the one with llvm, so within a vnc session it should use it
[15:26] <guest-34929> hii al
[15:27] <guest-34929> how i can save 20 sec of video file from 10 back and 10 forwrord?
[15:27] <penguin42> guest-34929: kdenlive lets you edit video files - if that's what you mean?
[15:28] <penguin42> how to install it however is a different matter
[15:30] <guest-34929> penguin42: i want the camera will take a fideo file alll athe time.. but when it get a triger, it need to save 20 secendes of video file, 10 secends before the triger and 10 secends after the triger.
[15:31] <penguin42> ah right, motion detect type of thing ?
[15:31] <penguin42> guest-34929: Might be worth trying the 'motion' package
[15:33] <guest-34929> penguin42: i have debian based linux
[15:34] <guest-34929> penguin42: how i can see the camera?
[15:34] <penguin42> guest-34929: Well, motion is in the ubuntu package repo - and it looks like it just came from debian - so sudo apt-get install motion should install it; seeing a camera, the simplest program is 'cheese'
[15:35] <guest-34929> penguin42: but it only text mode
[15:36] <penguin42> what's only text mode?
[15:36] <guest-34929> my linux
[15:37] <penguin42> guest-34929: well displaying a video camera in text mode is not going to be very useful; install X
[15:37] <penguin42> (there probably is an SDL based thing or aa - but that's not that useful is it)
[15:37] <guest-34929> how i can do it?
[15:37] <guest-34929> apt-get install x?
[15:38] <penguin42> guest-34929: It looks like you have some more basic 'how do I start using debian' type quesitons - and you're probably better asking that on a debian help channel
[15:39] <guest-34929> but ubuntu = debian?
[15:39] <guest-34929> debian = ubuntu server
[15:39] <penguin42> guest-34929: no
[15:39] <penguin42> guest-34929: They're related but not the same
[15:40] <penguin42> guest-34929: Ubuntu is based on debian but with a whole chunk of changes, especially when it comes to installation and X setup
[15:54] <guest-34929> penguin42: ok. it work now on gnome desktop envairment
[16:26]  * penguin42 grrrs at Android - a nice green tick next to 'Application not installed' with no explanation
[16:27] <smarqle> Installing Ubuntu Restricted Extras gave me pause for thought. I haven't seen a non-games site that needed Java for years now. I used to use Think Free, but Zoho made that redundant some time back
[16:27]  * hamitron cuddles his wp7 phone
[16:28] <popey> its not just games that use java
[16:28] <popey> many corporate internal sites use java
[16:29] <smarqle> I know that's true in theory. I just can't think of recent example I've come across
[16:30] <smarqle> I wasn't counting Intranets no. That would be the main case now?
[16:30] <popey> i suspect so
[16:30] <AlanBell> http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/visitmuseum/events/events_for_adults/Lates.aspx this looks like an interesting thing, free evening stuff at the Science Museum on the last wednesday of each month
[16:30] <penguin42> smarqle: even then my experience is that they tend to have very specific versions needed
[16:30] <christel> AlanBell: i love the science museum
[16:31] <popey> http://doodle.com/6vcb8a6rcgcewhf6 not impressive jam turnout
[16:31] <AlanBell> squillions of things use serverside java with jboss/tomcat whatever
[16:31] <christel> apparently those evening dos are tons of fun too
[16:32] <popey> AlanBell, you on up to date quantal?
[16:32] <popey> can you replicate/confirm bug 1041583 ?
[16:33] <penguin42> popey: Might help if it was on: http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/global/1901/detail/
[16:34] <AlanBell> popey: works for me right now, but I have updates to do, will do them and test again
[16:34] <smarqle> How can I decide if something is a bug or just works in a way I don't like? I don't like that you can't remove your lastfm station history in Rhythmbox. Is that  bug or just a feature I don't like?
[16:34] <popey> i'm not putting it there till we know how many people will come
[16:35] <penguin42> popey: Actually there don't seem to be many things listed on there
[16:40] <AlanBell> popey: unable to reproduce
[16:41] <AlanBell> tried on a guest session to in case it was oddness in my profile somewhere
[16:49] <smarqle> So why would a bug like that only happen for a very few people? Not for. just tried it
[16:53] <smarqle> Another bug I was thinking of reporting is that pidgin-twitter doesn't work. That's not a big deal because pidgin-microblog does, but surely the old one should have been removed from the apt-cache search?
[17:18] <Laney> I need ideas
[17:18] <Laney> I just moved house and after reconnecting my PC at the new place it doesn't turn on
[17:19] <Laney> nothing at all happens when I press the button
[17:19] <Laney> I tried resetting the CMOS and changing the battery because I thought it was on the way out
[17:19] <Laney> also shorting the power pins incase the button was broken
[17:19] <Laney> there's a light on the motherboard which is illuminated to indicate it is getting power
[17:20] <soreau> Laney: That doesn't mean the power supply is still good
[17:20] <soreau> First thing you should suspect is broken PSU
[17:21] <Laney> yeah
[17:21] <Laney> ?
[17:45] <popey> I'd unplug all power juicy things like drives
[17:46] <soreau> If the PSU isn't functioning correctly, I wouldn't try to use it at all
[17:48] <Laney> the P183 is a beautiful case for getting to stuff ♥
[17:48] <penguin42> well you don't know it's the PSU - it's a good guess, but it's also possibly a bad peripheral - so strip it down to the basics
[17:48] <Laney> did
[17:48] <Laney> i'll try and find someone to lend me one
[17:53] <popey> i have one you can borrow but I'm probably not nearby
[17:54] <Laney> not unless you moved to the midlands :-)
[17:58] <popey> :)
[18:00] <penguin42> computers don't like being switched off and moved; it's unsettling; they get used to things, just have a nice spot, with a nice view....
[18:00] <popey> :)
[18:03] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: tell that to my laptop
[18:04] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Laptops can travel a lot when they're young and still have that wonderlust
[18:05] <brobostigon> advice, when is the right time, to appear, at music venue,impromptu, on saturday.?
[18:08] <brobostigon> rephrase, when is a correct time, to appear?
[18:09] <MartijnVdS> when does it open?
[18:09] <brobostigon> as we speak.
[18:09] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: they will be playing all night.
[18:10] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: it is rumoured dave pegg will be around.
[18:11]  * brobostigon better get ready he thinks.
[18:11] <MartijnVdS> I tend to show up about 15 minutes before the door opens... so I might not be the best person to ask :)
[18:11] <brobostigon> :)
[18:11] <MartijnVdS> Staff will love it if there's a customer if you're early (and one of few customers) :)
[18:19] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: think being,i dont know an exact time, which makes things difficult.
[18:20] <christel> i dunno, i am always late for everything
[18:20] <brobostigon> i tend to like be early.
[18:21] <christel> hehe
[18:22] <brobostigon> christel: my autistic side.
[18:23] <brobostigon> ok, bbl, have fun everyone.
[18:23] <christel> have fun brobostigon :)
[18:23] <brobostigon> you also christel :)
[18:23] <christel> i shall! :)
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> christel: No fun allowed in this channel!
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> Only serious Ubuntu discussion!
[18:25] <christel> aw boo :(
[18:29]  * MartijnVdS plays with his new shiny toy
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> Made it myself, with jQuery(-UI) and HTML5!
[18:29] <christel> \o
[18:30] <MartijnVdS> (I built/maintain a "paid wifi" infrastructure for a large camping, and the ~8 year old Perl scripts + HTML templates were in need of a refresh)
[18:31] <christel> ooh
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> So I rebuilt it as one HTML page which calls the server-side scripts (I've modified the scripts to return simple bits of JSON)
[18:31] <MartijnVdS> it looks a lot cooler too
[18:32] <MartijnVdS> only a few features left to build
[18:33] <MartijnVdS> (stats, forceful logout, stuff like that)
[18:34] <Azelphur> I just had a cool idea too, I was trying to come up with a way to make links in conky clickable
[18:34] <Azelphur> and now I've ended up with a hacked together semi-functional HTML/CSS powered conky type thing
[18:35] <MartijnVdS> I'm really impressed with how easy jquery-ui is
[18:36] <MartijnVdS> actually, I'd always dismissed javascript as a silly language.. but it's cooler than I thought :)
[18:54] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: The syntax is awful, but it's in so many places and wired in to so much that it can do a lot
[18:57] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: I think it's not strict enough (and I'm a Perl coder ;))
[18:58] <mattt> people still use perl?
[18:58] <mattt> kidding
[18:58] <MartijnVdS> mattt: there was even a conference this week
[18:59] <MartijnVdS> mattt: in Frankfurt
[18:59] <mattt> like a highschool reunion?
[19:00] <MartijnVdS> mattt: More like "Look at the cool things you can do with Perl now".. also it's not as ugly anymore if you know what you do :)
[19:00] <mattt> i'm just kidding
[19:00] <mattt> when i first started playing w/ linux, everyone used perl
[19:01] <mattt> but brb, dinner time ;P
[19:01] <MartijnVdS> yeah that's "old" perl :)
[19:01] <MartijnVdS> now people look at you weird if you don't at least "use warnings;" and "use strict;"
[19:04]  * SuperEngineer still has "learn Perl in 24 hours" on dsk...  hmmmm brain thinks...all those years back??
[19:05]  * mgdm has that on dead tree
[19:06] <mgdm> never
[19:06] <mgdm> never did quite get around to it
[19:06] <SuperEngineer> [but thenre again - I wrote DOS batch files that people couldn't belive - yes they were that good
[19:06] <SuperEngineer> [&yes - it was long ago]
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> heh, I remember that time too
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> but I was in school so nobody cared
[19:06] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: ;)
[19:07] <SuperEngineer> [I was in a professional job - guess I showing my age here]
[19:09] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: your FIRST job?
[19:09] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: unfortunately not... clue: I used to do Unix before Linux
[19:10] <MartijnVdS> so, you used to catch the dinosaur to work?
[19:10]  * SuperEngineer shakes walking stick
[19:11] <jacobw>  /o\ perl
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: /o\ Perl from <2005
[19:12] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: I used to be [& still am] a protagonist [read annoyance] to that firm for reminding them the world had updated itself
[19:12] <SuperEngineer> [& there was a *nix now beginning an 'L']
[19:12] <jacobw> http://perldoc.perl.org/perlref.html
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: what's wrong with that? That's _easy_ :)
[19:13] <jacobw> i really hate the documentation style
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> Most things were written long ago
[19:14] <jacobw> "this thing is kind of closures, and kind of like this other term that only used in the perl world, hey, let's move on the next topic"
[19:14] <jacobw> 'blessing'
[19:14] <jacobw> ARGH
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: try this: http://perldoc.perl.org/perlreftut.html
[19:14] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: blessing = making a reference special, so you can call methods on it :)
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> (you bless it with a class name!)
[19:15] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: if you don't understand, add "tut" to the name ;)
[19:16] <jacobw> all new perl developments have an odd thing in common
[19:16] <jacobw> they make it more like python :D
[19:17] <SuperEngineer> ...did anyone guess I might be over 21? What gave it away?  Don't answer... I know the answer ;)
[19:17]  * jacobw is 21
[19:17] <SuperEngineer> jacobw: happy birthday
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: this is good :)
[19:17] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: it's the beard.
[19:17] <SuperEngineer> double ;) ;)
[19:17] <jacobw> is it a neckbead?
[19:17] <jacobw> haha
[19:18] <christel> HAPPY BIRTHDAY YOUNG jacobw <3
[19:19]  * SuperEngineer had a beard once.. never again thanks
[19:19] <christel> i have never quite managed to grow a good one
[19:19] <SuperEngineer> [all those flees & mosquitoes! -yuk]
[19:20] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: but.. extra meals!
[19:20] <MartijnVdS> christel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrowingTheBeard ?
[19:20] <christel> haha
[19:20] <SuperEngineer> christel: so grow a bad one - call it "my baaaadboy beard"
[19:21] <jacobw> my birthday was nearly 3 month ago ;)
[19:21] <christel> i struggle with growing a bad one too!
[19:21] <christel> jacobw: aw
[19:21] <jacobw> i didn't say i was 21 _today_
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: you are still 21 though, right?
[19:21] <jacobw> yeah
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> so you ARE 21 today
[19:21] <christel> i wish i was 21
[19:21] <SuperEngineer> jacobw: no - *i* did!
[19:21] <MartijnVdS> christel: you're 18, right?
[19:22] <christel> MartijnVdS: i love you
[19:22]  * jacobw hides in a corner
[19:22] <SuperEngineer> & if I did - you're 21 2day
[19:22] <jacobw> that doesn't seem like an answer christel :D
[19:22] <jacobw> unless loving MartijnVdS implies being 18
[19:23] <christel> haha
[19:23]  * SuperEngineer wonders about MartijnVdS / christel relationship
[19:23] <AlanBell> the fountain of youth \o/
[19:23] <jacobw> that'd be a great superpower, if a person loves you they become young
[19:24] <jacobw> that'd be a better episode of buffy :p
[19:24] <christel> jacobw: i am of such an age that anyone who suggests that i might be younger than middleaged (!) automagically gain my love for life ;)
[19:24] <SuperEngineer> if a person loves you, *you* become young - surely
[19:24] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: so THAT's why you're old?
[19:25] <jacobw> ouch :o
[19:25] <christel> aw boo, noone loves me.. this is why i am so old :(
[19:25] <jacobw> christel: aw :)
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> nah - I 27 - i'm loved plenty
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> [mostly by me]
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> ಠ_ಠ
[19:25]  * SuperEngineer never learnt to count higher than 27 ;)
[19:26] <christel> haha
[19:26] <jacobw> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19381098
[19:26] <jacobw> shucks
[19:26] <SuperEngineer> [don't need to on my planet]
[19:26] <christel> AlanBell: MartijnVdS is the fountain of youth?
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: Awww
[19:26]  * christel plans a trip to holland
[19:26] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[19:26] <AlanBell> oh no :(
[19:27] <SuperEngineer> christel: make sure you shave before going to Holland!
[19:27] <AlanBell> I was at an event with Neil Armstrong as a speaker
[19:28] <christel> SuperEngineer: i er, uhm, ok i will
[19:28] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[19:28] <SuperEngineer> AlanBell: the real Neil Armstrong?  me jealous
[19:28] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: he didn't do that often
[19:28] <AlanBell> SuperEngineer: yeah, 3 years ago
[19:29] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: no, it was *really* rare, someone knew him personally and asked
[19:29] <AlanBell> err, 5 years ago
[19:30] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: BBC broadcast "Being Neil Armstrong" a few weeks ago
[19:30] <AlanBell> http://www.zdnet.com/neil-armstrong-lands-at-lotusphere-3039285620/
[19:30]  * mgdm had just been reading through some space-related books of late, he featured in a couple
[19:30] <mgdm> (Failure Is Not An Option, notably)
[19:30] <SuperEngineer> AlanBell: so you've both met a spaceman & work for a spaceman -  pretty damn cool
[19:30] <AlanBell> I don't work for a spaceman
[19:30] <SuperEngineer> uh?
[19:31] <AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/~not-canonical
[19:31]  * SuperEngineer giggles
[19:31] <jacobw> http://www.snopes.com/glurge/communion.asp
[19:31] <Laney> how likely is this jam to happen?
[19:32]  * Laney would be interested but would like to buy train tix in advance
[19:33] <christel> popey was investigating space at canonical hq wasn't he?
[19:34] <AlanBell> http://doodle.com/6vcb8a6rcgcewhf6
[19:35] <christel> ooh! i pay no attention do i!
[19:36] <christel> Laney: i assume it will happen :)
[19:37] <popey> it will if people decide to come
[19:37] <Laney> you have agreement to host it there?
[19:37] <Dave2> mmm, jam
[19:37] <popey> yes
[19:37] <Laney> fair
[19:38] <Laney> would be nice to work out of the office for a day anyway
[19:38] <popey> with some caveats
[19:38] <Laney> - no neckbeards
[19:38] <Laney> - sandals must be worn without socks
[19:38] <popey>  - no debian developers
[19:38]  * Laney alt-f4
[19:39] <popey> hah
[19:39]  * jacobw hugs debian
[19:39] <AlanBell> I was so tempted to put sandals on over my socks the other day, too hot for shoes and too cold for no-socks. I resisted the temptation.
[19:40] <jacobw> i personally see nothing wrong with that combination
[19:40] <christel> i would have lost all respect for you :o
[19:41] <SuperEngineer> christel: +1
[19:42] <Laney> http://open.spotify.com/track/6LZB5SNqBMMwM5KHKdCzgy good tune itt
[19:42] <SuperEngineer> socks / sandals???? mathematians tried the equation & ansered it with the result - "yuk"
[19:42] <SuperEngineer> *answered
[19:42] <SuperEngineer> here's a strange one - I use single click in Nautilus to move around,,,  after converting a whole bunch of files fron wav to mp3 I was involuntarily back on double click. had to reboot to regain control.
[19:44] <SuperEngineer> ...who asked for my prefs to converted at the same time - not me!
[19:46] <SuperEngineer> [mind you cpu was at 100% useage during conversion - so I suppose it's congrats actually to Ubuntu for not getting any more confused than that
[19:53] <popey> AlanBell, you might be interested in http://accessiblecomputingfoundation.org/
[19:53] <popey> there is a current discussion on mumble
[19:53] <popey> ch1.teamspeak.cc:64747
[19:54] <Dave2> mumble on a domain containing "teamspeak"? How confusing.
[19:55] <Azelphur> mumbleteamspeak :p
[20:04] <popey> AlanBell, you're echoing
[20:07]  * AlanBell changes microphone
[20:47] <extrasolar> I would like to go to a linux user group in london
[20:47] <extrasolar> but am I too young?
[20:47] <extrasolar> I'm about 20
[20:49] <Dave2> Probably not.
[20:49] <Dave2> I was younger when I first started going to a LUG.
[20:53] <StrontiumCat> RIP Neil Armstrong :(
[20:53] <penguin42> extrasolar: LUGs tend to have a wide range of people
[20:54] <extrasolar> right
[20:54] <extrasolar> Hopefully people can relate to me
[21:00] <popey> extrasolar, you are not too young
[21:04] <extrasolar> in that case
[21:04] <extrasolar> I'm confident I'll go
[21:05] <Azelphur> extrasolar: I went to the Ubuntu release party when I was 18 lol
[21:06] <extrasolar> how was it?
[21:06] <Azelphur> actually I think I was a few days before 18 and not technically allowed in since it was a pub, but I went anyway
[21:06] <Azelphur> extrasolar: was fine, although I imagine a LUG would be different to a release party :)
[21:08] <extrasolar> fair enough
[21:10] <mattt> 20 too young?
[21:10] <mattt> people are running businesses at 20 :)
[21:11]  * AlanBell is too young
[21:11] <mattt> AlanBell: isn't it your bed time
[21:11] <AlanBell> or too old, I can't remember which
[21:17] <extrasolar> so are LUGs drinking clubs?
[21:18] <jacobw> er, if the drink is tea, then yes :p
[21:20] <jacobw> LUGs do have a range of people
[21:20] <jacobw> i don't know what to set $CLASSPATH to find java.*
[21:21] <mattt> extrasolar: were you home schooled?
[21:21] <extrasolar> no
[21:21] <extrasolar> I wasn't schooled at all :P
[21:21] <mattt> extrasolar: whatchootalkinbout?
[21:21] <extrasolar> yes
[21:22] <mattt> tho to be fair, LUGs have kind of gone the way of perl
[21:22]  * mattt looks at MartijnVdS 
[21:23]  * BigRedS ponders rising to it :)
[21:25] <BigRedS> extrasolar: Gllug is
[21:25] <BigRedS> it's largely equivalent to the London Perl Mongers, though. The membership is nigh on identical, but all the arranging of pubs is on london.pm's list
[21:27] <extrasolar> Oh i see
[21:29] <jacobw> hmm, updates-alternatives openjdk-6-java cannot find java.lang, this can't be normal
[21:30] <BigRedS> That said, since funtimes with the gllug list a while ago I've not received any mail. It might've moved without my following...
[22:47] <Azelphur> Sigh, Amazon keeps telling me they'll get back to me and then never getting back to me
[22:47] <Azelphur> rude :(
[22:50] <smarqle> Azelphur: Customer service dept?
[22:50] <Azelphur> smarqle: yea
[22:52] <Azelphur> I asked them for a microsoft tax refund, they said they'd get back to me before the 17th, they didn't so I messaged them and they said they'd get back to me before the 23rd and they didn't :(
[22:52] <penguin42> Azelphur: In the uk ?
[22:52] <Azelphur> think I'll give em one more chance and then hit up the complaints department
[22:52] <Azelphur> penguin42: yep
[22:53] <penguin42> Azelphur: Since when can you get a MS refund in the UK?
[22:53] <Azelphur> penguin42: since forever afaik?
[22:53] <penguin42> Azelphur: Have you ever succeeded?
[22:53] <Azelphur> penguin42: never tried, theopensourcerer has done it multiple times and he's UK afaik
[22:53] <penguin42> hmm
[22:54] <penguin42> Azelphur: I suspect your problem is that it's gone into the support org and hit the 'He wants to do WHAT?'
[22:54] <Azelphur> penguin42: yea, pretty much lol
[22:54] <smarqle> A lot of these companies really drag their heels on that one. There was case recently about it where someone sued a vendor and won. I wish I could remember and link to it
[22:54] <Azelphur> smarqle: yea there's a few cases like that
[22:54] <Azelphur> penguin42: I just quoted EU consumer law at them
[22:55] <penguin42> Azelphur: Which particular EU consumer law is that?
[22:56] <Azelphur> The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumer regulations 2002 requires that the retailer replace the faulty item, or if that is impossible provide you with a refund. The Sale of Goods Act gives you --> the right to partially reject items <--. Essentially you assert your 'statutory rights"
[22:57] <penguin42> can you arbitrarily reject it - or only if you find fault?
[22:57] <penguin42> Azelphur: I mean if you bought a car and decided you didn't need the passenger seat, could you carefully take it out, return it to the vendor and ask for a refund?
[22:57] <Azelphur> penguin42: http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/08/pressure-mounts-on-windows-tax/ is the page on the subject :)
[22:58] <smarqle> I don't think that's the law that won the case. I'm sure it was some element of contract law, as long as you don't start the computer in windows. First start has to be from a live CD and then you haven't seen the EULA so you aren't bound by it
[22:59] <Azelphur> smarqle: lol simply seeing an EULA doesn't make you bound to it, you actually have to agree :P
[22:59] <Azelphur> smarqle: By reading this you are legally required to send me all your monies :p
[22:59] <penguin42> Azelphur: Oh I see, hmm saying you're not agreeing to the EULA, because you hadn't seen it up front - are you sure the Amazon page which had it on sale didn't say that there was a license with it?
[23:00] <smarqle> Yeah but as I understand it after windows has started you have already received the goods
[23:00] <Azelphur> penguin42: *shrug*
[23:00] <Azelphur> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lenovo-Ideapad-Laptop-Windows-Premium/dp/B004TQQCAS
[23:00] <smarqle> If windows never starts you haven't and you were charged for something you never received
[23:00] <Azelphur> smarqle: when you buy an OEM laptop first boot asks you to accept the license
[23:01] <Azelphur> I simply didn't accept it and then stuck a Ubuntu CD in there :p
[23:01] <Darael> Since the Windows setup process on first boot for an OEM-installed machine explicitly states "To use Windows, you must agree to this EULA", one has not received usable goods unless one then agrees to the EULA, surely?
[23:02] <smarqle> Yeah that's what I mean. If you make the first boot from the CD then you never received windows, in the legal sense of the word
[23:02] <Azelphur> Darael: yep :P
[23:03] <Darael> It usually then has another, below, saying "To use your /computer/, you must agree to *this* EULA", and it's a licence agreement that doesn't mention using the computer at all, just the use of the vendor-installed bloatware.
[23:03] <Azelphur> yea, the windows license also says that it can be returned to the manufacturer
[23:03] <Azelphur> so either amazon or lenovo has to cough up :p
[23:03] <smarqle> I think you can win on the sale of goods act but you get bogged down in what constitutes a sale and what is a licence which is too expensive for most people to pursue
[23:04] <smarqle> And I think the key word their is manufacturer; ie not the vendor
[23:04] <Azelphur> indeed
[23:04] <smarqle> wrong there sorry
[23:04] <Azelphur> so if I loose at amazon I just go bully lenovo instead
[23:04] <Azelphur> haha
[23:05] <penguin42> Azelphur: How much are you hoping to get back?
[23:05] <Azelphur> penguin42: I dunno
[23:05] <Azelphur> maybe £30 or something
[23:06] <penguin42> Azelphur: If I was them I'd tell you to return the whole thing
[23:06] <Azelphur> penguin42: they tried that, I declined.
[23:06] <Azelphur> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/August/2012-08-10-150952_1908x1170_scrot.png
[23:07] <penguin42> Azelphur: So, what do you reckon to the car analogie?
[23:08] <Azelphur> penguin42: not really the same, you can take the car seat out and resell it, the car seat is also crucial to the cars function and is a non-optional component
[23:08] <Azelphur> where as with a Windows license, I can't resell it, it's not a requirement of the machines function, and it's thrust upon me :(
[23:08] <penguin42> Azelphur: The car seat's not crucial - if you are single and you never want to use the other seat
[23:08] <smarqle> Reading Google News, I just noticed all the cases were won against manufacturers and none against vendors
[23:08] <Azelphur> penguin42: then ya can take it out and sell it :D
[23:09] <penguin42> Azelphur: By your argument though it would be easier for me to return it to the vendor
[23:09] <Azelphur> ?
[23:09] <smarqle> Two against Lenovo ironically, who defended each case though :(
[23:10] <penguin42> Azelphur: Actually, thinking about it, the difference here is the fact you're claiming it's faulty; and I'm not with the car seat
[23:10] <Azelphur> good point :)
[23:11] <penguin42> Azelphur: Now, if I was Amazon I'd bury in the T&C's somewhere a 'if you're buying something with software, then you agree to the license on the software that you know that you're buying'
[23:11] <smarqle> Reading more it looks like no company has willingly done this; they all fought it into the courts :(
[23:13] <smarqle> It's funny though. I tend t buy from local suppliers and each one knocked £25 off for a bare bones system. It seems like it's only a big issue for big companies
[23:13] <penguin42> smarqle: For big companies it's just 'a standard model' that they;'re selling, with everything in
[23:14] <penguin42> smarqle: Dell will do it if you order via their business side for most of their desktops/servers (or did a few years ago when I used to order from them)
[23:15] <smarqle> I notice with Dell, many of their refurbs already come OS free. I rarely buy new. I'm too much of a treehugger :)
[23:15] <penguin42> smarqle: I'm too much of a tight b*****
[23:16] <Darael> penguin42: I think defining a purchase as including agreeing to the licence when the person can't necessarily read the licence before buying is illegal on the grounds of unconscionability.
[23:16] <smarqle> Well there's that too penguin42 :)
[23:16] <Darael> That's probably why they don't do /that/.
[23:16] <penguin42> Darael: Then provide a link; I think MS's stuff is all on their site
[23:17] <smarqle> I'm pretty sure, it would also run contrary to the Distance Selling act Darael
[23:17] <Darael> That's the thing, though - not everyone's is, and to put it in the Ts&Cs, they'd have to make it practical for /any/ purchase including software.
[23:17] <smarqle> Software is already exempt but the hardware can't be
[23:17] <Darael> smarqle: That sounds likely, yes.
[23:18] <penguin42> Darael: Interesting point - do you want to try and get a refund on the BIOS if you put coreboot on?
[23:20] <smarqle> I'll tell you something very odd though. I bought from the old Mesh a few years ago and they knocked £30 off the price but according to their saleswoman, they couldn't actually prevent me receiving the preinstalled Windows I hadn't paid for; now that's weird
[23:20] <shauno> could you put coreboot on without using the bios/
[23:20]  * penguin42 hands shauno a jtag lead
[23:21] <shauno> not sure my mac has headers for that ;)
[23:21] <Darael> penguin42: If I could get the price of the BIOS pinned down, and it seemed enough to be worth it, why not?  Could be that there's more of an argument to it being part of the product, though?
[23:21]  * penguin42 hands shauno a soldering iron
[23:21] <Darael> It'll have somewhere that one can be soldered in, at least, shauno - Apple will want to be able to refurbish it after they convince you to buy a new one :P
[23:22] <penguin42> Darael: That's kind of my point though; it's a very grey line as to what's part of the product; why does it matter if the OS is stored on disk and the BIOS in flash; especially if it was an SSD
[23:23] <smarqle> I've definitely read that firmware is a grey area and there are always terms stating you flash it at your own risk. It was tested in court with that Wii jailbreak that let you play videos as I recall
[23:23] <Darael> penguin42: Yeah.  The OS is definitely on the not-part-of-product end of that grey-area, and the BIOS toward the other side, but where the line should go seems to be anybody's guess.
[23:24] <smarqle> Having said that the US case went against Apple so who knows
[23:24] <Darael> Flashing the BIOS (or other firmware) in any manner but an "approved" one is a reasonably fast way to invalidate one's warranty, but it shoudn't be blockable by software licensing.
[23:25] <penguin42> Darael: If you think about a phone where it's all in the same flash chip then it seems odd to discriminate - why discriminate ona  PC?
[23:26] <smarqle> But isn't only part of the ROM writeable on a PC whereas all the card is on a phone? I'm splitting hairs but…
[23:27] <Darael> penguin42: If it looked to be worth the effort in terms of the monies one would get back, I'd be absolutely in favour of trying to get a refund on the BIOS if one used a JTAG connector to install coreboot instead.
[23:27] <smarqle> I think the way forward is really open hardware in the end
[23:27] <Darael> Genuinely open hardware would indeed be nice.
[23:28] <penguin42> it would; it's proving difficult to get/make
[23:28] <smarqle> I've used Linux a few times but I'm only now reading about the philosophy. It's a great idea if only it can be made to stick
[23:30] <smarqle> But there are so many powerful vested interests ranged against it :(