[06:18]  * MartijnVdS files a bug on the (shiny, I admit) gdocs scope
[06:46] <christel> good morning pretties
[06:54] <MartijnVdS> \o
[06:58]  * christel knuffels MartijnVdS 
[06:58] <christel> hoe gaat eet met u? (that was probably not real dutch!)
[06:58] <MartijnVdS> eet = het
[06:59] <MartijnVdS> and if you "knuffel" someone, you tend to say "je" or "jou", not "u" :)
[06:59] <MartijnVdS> christel: Goed hoor :)
[07:00] <christel> oh!
[07:01] <christel> one day i will learn dutch properly! :D
[07:01] <MartijnVdS> \o/
[07:01] <MartijnVdS> After all, Norwegian is just another Dutch dialect :P
[07:01] <MartijnVdS> Just like Frisian
[07:01] <christel> so that i can flirt with you without anyone realisi... wait i mean...
[07:01] <christel> haha
[07:06] <christel> it is SUNNY today, this makes me very happy
[08:05] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[08:32] <extrasolar> Bitcoins
[08:34] <christel> morning brobostigon, extrasolar
[08:34] <christel> brobostigon: how was the gig? :)
[08:34] <brobostigon> morning christel
[08:34] <brobostigon> christel: went fine, :)
[08:34] <extrasolar> Hellos
[08:34] <extrasolar> to all
[08:34] <brobostigon> morning extrasolar
[08:34] <christel> brobostigon: \o/
[08:35] <brobostigon> christel: :
[08:35] <brobostigon> :)
[08:50] <extrasolar> so is bitcoin legal in the UK?
[08:50] <extrasolar> It seems no one knows
[08:58] <extrasolar> anyway
[08:58] <extrasolar> g2g
[10:27] <AlanBell> it isn't legal tender which means you are not obliged to accept it in settlement of a debt
[10:27] <AlanBell> but it is not illegal as such
[10:30] <MartijnVdS> Do bitcoins come with pics of the queen on them?
[10:53] <BigRedS> yeah, there's no such thing as an illegal currency in the UK, you can pay your debts in pigs if you like
[10:57] <soreau> MartijnVdS: They're probably made of solid gold with a picture of Yoshi on them. And when you collect one, you hear this sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfkcI8dhfsQ
[11:24] <bittin> http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock
[11:24] <Laney> how do I get the record tasks on duolingo to work?
[11:24] <Laney> the mic works but the website just says it can't hear me
[11:26] <MartijnVdS> Laney: is it flash?
[11:26] <MartijnVdS> you might have to allow Flash to use the mic
[11:26] <MartijnVdS> (right click, settings)
[11:29] <Laney> I think so, and it is allowed
[11:29]  * Laney tries some stuff
[11:45]  * MartijnVdS ducks, covers
[11:50] <popey> hmm, amazon.co.uk appears broken
[11:50] <popey> images don't load
[11:53] <penguin42> popey: I'm seeing some broken on boingboing as well - it's taking it's time to load stuff
[11:53] <bittin> cost me 1crown per mb to surf :(
[11:53] <popey> hmm, yeah, seeing it on twitter too
[11:53] <bittin> Tele2 has destroyed my fiber :(
[11:53] <penguin42> popey: which network/browser?
[11:53] <bittin> hope its fixed tommorow
[11:53] <popey> virgin media
[11:54] <popey> firefox
[11:54] <penguin42> popey: Hmm, demon
[11:54] <penguin42> popey: chromium - so no overlap
[11:55] <popey> just doing wget https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/101298134/BFE031709_normal.jpg  fails
[11:55] <popey> ssl issue maybe
[11:56] <penguin42> popey: Oddly, for me it's working in ff, but not chrome
[11:58] <penguin42> hmm, it's back
[11:58] <popey> yeah, works here too now
[11:59]  * penguin42 reads a g+ post by Dave Airlie about bugs due to the flashing cursor; 'last one was flashing cursor during hibernate overwriting ram!' - classic
[12:00] <popey> :)
[12:01] <popey> one of my fave bugs is bug 248619 where openoffice won't print on tuesdays
[12:01] <penguin42> ah yes, that is a classic
[12:02] <penguin42> popey: What's interesting about that one is there is near to know way it would have been spotted in any OOo testing scheme you could imagine
[12:02] <penguin42> with any better than a 1/7 chance
[12:04] <popey> still seeing broken images on twitter
[12:04] <popey> makes me think it's an AWS or S3 issue
[12:07] <bigcalm> Good morning^W afternoon peeps :)
[12:07] <MartijnVdS> good day, bigcalmian
[12:07] <bigcalm> Did anybody else catch the lurgy from oggcamp this year, or was it just myself and Hayley?
[12:08] <penguin42> popey: All green on http://status.aws.amazon.com/
[12:08] <popey> probably a dodgy virgin media proxy then I guess
[12:09] <penguin42> popey: But I don't think that explains why I saw it; I'm demon/thus, owned by C&W so that shouldn't be playing with any virgins
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> nope.. jquery.com is breaky too
[12:09] <MartijnVdS> _something_ is wrong on tinterweb
[12:10] <bigcalm> Works for me
[12:21]  * SuperEngineer sighs with relief - 2 days off & [music] project completed
[12:21] <SuperEngineer> & howdi all
[12:24]  * SuperEngineer relaxes, sits back & lets rhythmbox takeover
[12:24] <bigcalm> I've finally found some error log info on my mysql problem: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1167957/
[12:25] <bigcalm> But I don't know how to find out why it's running out of memory
[12:26] <SuperEngineer> bigcalm: coz you haven't enough installed memory... does it use swap space & fills that too?
[12:28] <bigcalm> There's half a gig of memory on the VPS
[12:28] <bigcalm> I honestly don't know how to read `free` or `top` to understand memory usage :(
[12:28] <bigcalm> I fail at being a geek
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: free lists kilobytes , free -m lists megabytes
[12:29] <SuperEngineer> derrr - if *that* ain't enough - you need to shout at it "naughty sql, behave yourseelf"!
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: top also specifies it has "KiB" (* 1024 = bytes of memory)
[12:29] <SuperEngineer> [sorry - in too good /relaxed mood today
[12:30] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF9fqx4H_Cg
[12:30]  * SuperEngineer looks curiously at link
[12:30] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: I understand that bit on both, but I don't know how to read if swap is actually being used or if it's just reserved
[12:31] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm: http://serverfault.com/questions/85470/meaning-of-the-buffers-cache-line-in-the-output-of-free
[12:31] <popey> bigcalm, is it ubuntu server + wordpress + mysql + php 5.3?
[12:31] <popey> +apache
[12:32] <bigcalm> popey: yes
[12:32] <bigcalm> popey: and gitlab
[12:32] <popey> this is why I switched to lighttpd
[12:32] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: like the vid -thanks
[12:32] <popey> i have seen 4 machines do this now
[12:32] <bigcalm> I have never had a problem until 12.04. And this is the only machine that has such trouble
[12:32] <popey> it's common enough that I can spot it a mile away :)
[12:44] <SuperEngineer> ooo - that's beetter - "Thunderstruck" from PC - loud through the sound system - go sub-woofer - go ;)
[12:50] <SuperEngineer> [and now Perfect Day (Lou Reed) - perfect] - why did I wait so long to use pooter as sound driver - doh!
[13:02] <SuperEngineer> BBC reports that Jerry Nelson, the voice of Sesame Street's Count von Count, dies aged 78 :(
[13:03] <jacobw> does anyone know if the java liscening issues have caused main libraries to be removed?
[13:07] <jacobw> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1168010/
[13:07] <SuperEngineer> jacobw: I think you're down to open source [JDK] only on repositories these days - can't remember exactly when but was removed for reason for suggest
[13:08] <penguin42> bigcalm: thoughts; run sysstat and enable it to collect regular memory/load info, you can dump it out later and see if the amount of free memory is slowly dropping; top in memory sort mode to see if anything else is eating RAM, use 'df' watch the amount of RAM used in /run, /run/shm and /dev (i.e. any of the tmpfs ones), finally /proc/slabinfo and /proc/meminfo give some very low level memory usage stats
[13:09] <jacobw> i know why it was removed, and what now provides java in ubuntu, i just don't know if it's stripped of the packages found in the classpath of oracle distributions
[13:09] <jacobw> java.lang seems a big thing to be missing, i'm not sure if it's even possible for that to be missing
[13:10] <bigcalm> penguin42: thank you, all useful information I will try not to forget :S
[13:10] <bigcalm> This is the output of mysqltuner: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1168018/
[13:10] <bigcalm> I think I need to sort mysql out
[13:11] <jacobw> bigcalm: using innodb?
[13:12] <bigcalm> jacobw: where I can, yes. Looks like some systems have installed themselves using myisam
[13:12]  * bigcalm kills off civicrm and vtiger :D
[13:14] <bigcalm> Damn, that made no difference :(
[13:14] <bigcalm> How would I go about changing myisam databases to use innodb?
[13:15] <jacobw> myisam in deprecated in >5.1 IIRC
[13:15] <jacobw> which version are you running?
[13:16] <bigcalm> 5.5.24-0ubuntu0.12.04.1
[13:16] <jacobw> ah :)
[13:17] <bigcalm> If I use ALTER TABLE foo ENGINE=Innodb; Would I need to alter programs that use those databases?
[13:18] <jacobw> i don't think so
[13:19] <bigcalm> Good
[13:19] <jacobw> i think mysql-server abstracts to interface to the database, the engine is table level and the interface is database level
[13:21] <jacobw> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/converting-tables-to-innodb.html
[13:39] <BigRedS> bigcalm: only if they do MyISAM-specific things, but I don't think there are any really
[13:39] <BigRedS> Innodb is hideously fragile, though
[13:40] <BigRedS> really, only migrate to innodb where there's a clear benefit to going there, so on tables that particularly want row-level locks or transactions
[14:22] <SuperEngineer> Lcawte|Away is now known as annoying msg ;)
[14:37] <jacobw> at least it isn't actual away message
[14:46] <SuperEngineer> jacobw: ;)
[15:38] <SuperEngineer> "d" - I started with "d" - yup that helped - I feel soo much better now
[15:38]  * BigRedS is puzzled
[15:39] <SuperEngineer> BigRedS: see the topic ;)
[15:43] <BigRedS> SuperEngineer: ahhh!
[15:44] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[15:49]  * SuperEngineer notices that even Tweedle Dee has changed name to "d" tweedle, stating: "it helps" ;)
[15:50] <SuperEngineer> [Tweedle Dum doesn't seem to care]
[18:07] <SuperEngineer> Solid State Quantum Computer Finds 15=3x5 — 48% of the time [ SuperEngineer laughs ]
[18:34] <penguin42> gah, wikimedia upload rules are a pain; I was about to fix their page on Eve's pudding which didn't have a picture of one; but you have to have an account that's 4 days old and have made 10 other edits before they let you upload
[18:52] <SuperEngineer> penguin42: looking on the bright side -  you don't have to ask the Equadorian embaasy as well ;)
[18:56] <penguin42> true
[19:02] <BigRedS> Anyone know roughly how long and hard a Zimbra upgrade is? Open source to open source, no funny business. Just can't fidn any docs on Zimbra's site
[19:03] <MartijnVdS> BigRedS: AlanBell knows
[19:04] <BigRedS> aha! I'll quiz him later. Customer can't possibly be expecting an answer on a sunday evening. Ta!
[19:05] <SuperEngineer> hmmm - Q!I Xl has just announced Alan Davies as being from another planet... odd that - I don't recall seeing him when I was there ;)
[19:05] <MartijnVdS> but.. what else is there to do on Sunday evening than IRC?
[19:05] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: there are more than 2 planets
[19:06] <stgraber> MartijnVdS: assuming both versions are supported and you do a full backup of /opt/zimbra (rsync or similar) before doing the upgrade, it usually goes pretty smoothly
[19:06] <BigRedS> MartijnVdS: oh, there's _loads_ to do :( It's just a matter of which fraction of my todo list I remove
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> stgraber: --> BigRedS
[19:06] <BigRedS> stgraber: aha! Ta!
[19:06] <stgraber> MartijnVdS: indeed, sorry :)
[19:06] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: but I visited all the others on my way here!
[19:06] <BigRedS> Any idea on time usually? I'm guessing it's not particularly mailstore-size dependent or anything?
[19:06] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qriH-8yeqcE ?
[19:06] <BigRedS> I think I've done one before and it was trivial, but I might be making that up
[19:06] <stgraber> BigRedS: all you need to do is run the zimbra installer, it's going to detect it needs to upgrade, will update the packages, update the DB and LDAP schema then run a few tests
[19:07] <stgraber> BigRedS: doing the backup of /opt/zimbra will take the most time, the rest can usually be done in around 30min in my experience
[19:07] <BigRedS> oh, awesome
[19:07] <BigRedS> ta!
[19:07] <stgraber> np
[19:09] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: luvit! [but  didn't know someone was filming my arrival!]
[19:12] <MartijnVdS> ♥ discogs
[19:13] <MartijnVdS> (Good CDs for €2 :))
[19:21] <SuperEngineer> I boyght a PC to sound sys lead today.  assistant went on about the gold plating [ignoring my basic request of a mininum lead lengrh].
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: amazon basics :)
[19:22] <SuperEngineer> Got my my own back, I started [but not completed] a lecture on plating quality causing extra impedence
[19:22] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: you know too much!
[19:22] <SuperEngineer> and bad coating being scraped away anyhow on 1St conxn
[19:23] <SuperEngineer>  - if manufacture to standards is high quality]
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: But it has argon bubbles trapped in the conductor!
[19:23] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: ...I stopped the argument when his jaw dropped in defeat...
[19:23] <MartijnVdS> And the conductor was weaved by specially-picked maidens!
[19:24] <SuperEngineer> always -hand picked maidens - [read into that what you want] ;)
[19:25] <MartijnVdS> hand-picked maidens (m/f)...
[19:25] <SuperEngineer> ...
[19:28] <SuperEngineer> I live by a rule that hand-picked maidens are always than hand-picked noses!
[19:28] <SuperEngineer> *better than
[19:38] <SuperEngineer> When we all wake up tomorrow, dont forget to start the day with "d"
[19:38] <SuperEngineer> [You don't have to start with "d" to be here, but it helps]
[19:38] <SuperEngineer> re /topic
[19:39] <SuperEngineer> I intend to go "doh!"... that starts with a "d"
[19:39] <SuperEngineer> ;)
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: and don't forget to end with "y"
[19:40] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: lol
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> ... @ amazon
[19:40] <MartijnVdS> DISPATCH ESTIMATE Saturday 15 Sep 2012 - Saturday 6 Oct 2012
[19:43] <AlanBell> BigRedS: I have not got the foggiest
[19:47] <BigRedS> AlanBell: ah, haha. It's alright now, I've a not-all-that foggy idea :)
[20:35]  * SuperEngineer has decided - I love my ol' Dell Dimension E520 - wish I knew "les femmes" that good ;)
[20:37] <SuperEngineer> ...& performed as well on a desktop ;)
[20:52] <ascenseur> good evening all!
[20:53] <popey> hello
[20:54] <ascenseur> long time no see! ça va?
[20:54] <mattt> bien
[20:54] <ascenseur> bon :)
[20:55] <popey> Oui, john.
[20:55] <ascenseur> i can't believe it's been nearly two years since I last set foot in here, virtually of course
[20:55] <AlanBell> o/ ascenseur
[20:56] <ascenseur> AlanBell: \o/
[20:56] <Seeker`> o/
[20:56] <ascenseur> oh gosh sorry, only just getting used to no using irssi
[20:56] <DJones> Evening, anybody here in Essex near St Osyth? From BBC Breaking news "Essex Police advise residents to stay indoors after reports of a lion being seen in a field in the St Osyth area"
[20:56] <popey> blimey
[20:56] <mattt> wow
[20:56] <ascenseur> oh my
[20:57]  * SuperEngineer roars - that'll frightrn it
[20:57] <ascenseur> anyone currently drying bacon on their washing line is advised to leave it in situ
[20:57] <AlanBell> hmm, I would not be very worried unless that came with a report of a lion being absent from somewhere that a lion should be.
[20:57] <DJones> Probably turn out to be a very shaggy cat
[20:57] <brobostigon> isnt st osyth, just down form clacton ?
[20:57] <ascenseur> how's things been going for you all?
[20:57] <brobostigon> from
[20:57] <brobostigon> from*
[20:58] <ascenseur> AlanBell: how's things? :)
[20:58] <SuperEngineer> brobostigon: the sea floor is just down from Clacton
[20:58] <DJones> brobostigon: Looks like it
[20:58] <bigcalm> Evening peeps :)
[20:58] <AlanBell> ascenseur: where are you these days? want to come to an event or two we are working on?
[20:58] <brobostigon> SuperEngineer: :)
[20:58] <brobostigon> DJones: i thought i recognised the name.
[20:59] <DJones> Wasn't Clacton on Sea where Dad's Army was set?
[20:59] <ascenseur> AlanBell: i am mighty fine, starting sixth form in about a week or so's time, and also managed to get myself a job at the local hospital :) (working with sharepoint, mind. not that great!)
[20:59] <ascenseur> AlanBell: I would be absolutely delighted!
[20:59] <ascenseur> AlanBell: I am also willing to lend any time or help I can give, as at the moment I am a little empty handed
[21:00] <AlanBell> http://doodle.com/6vcb8a6rcgcewhf6 possible jam thing in Canonical's shiny new London office
[21:00] <brobostigon> DJones: wasnt that. walmington on sea.
[21:00] <DJones> brobostigon: That rings a bell
[21:01] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1906/detail/ farnham happy hour \o/
[21:01] <AlanBell> issyl0: ^^
[21:01]  * popey flashes his joggler
[21:01] <ascenseur> AlanBell: ooh! all exciting :)
[21:01] <ascenseur> popey: dirty habit! put it away!
[21:01] <ascenseur> :P
[21:01] <AlanBell> and we are thinking interesting ideas around christmas already
[21:02] <ascenseur> AlanBell: estimated times for the jam?
[21:03] <AlanBell> dunno really, depends which day it ends up on, popey is the one to ask
[21:03] <popey> yup
[21:03] <popey> and the problem with security in the building on weekends is that we need a member of staff to stay with people in the office
[21:04] <popey> _and_ a member of staff to let people in
[21:04] <popey> which is tricky
[21:04] <AlanBell> are the office and the door in dramatically different places?
[21:05] <popey> 5 floors apart
[21:05] <ascenseur> you need elastagirl!
[21:05] <AlanBell> is there a pub over the road to meet in?
[21:05] <popey> i was thinking similar
[21:05] <popey> meet at a pre-defined time then all go in
[21:05] <ascenseur> aha it's fine, no worries - it was just an enquiry as i'm going to be working until about 4 on the friday, and have the weekend booked out sadly :(
[21:06] <AlanBell> because, even given two people, that sucks for one of them.
[21:06] <popey> well no
[21:06] <popey> only have to go down to let them in
[21:06] <popey> and then come back
[21:09] <ascenseur> ah okay
[21:09] <AlanBell> yeah, still best to meet in a cafe or pub and pile in together
[21:13] <Azelphur> Amazon got back to me and said they arn't going to refund my windows 7 license :/
[21:14] <bigcalm> Return the laptop
[21:14] <Azelphur> the whole thing?
[21:14] <bigcalm> Your choice
[21:14] <Azelphur> I don't really want to return the laptop, I'd just like to not have to buy windows with it
[21:15] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/7ZP2kQ0N
[21:15] <Azelphur> maybe I could raise it with the BBB since they arn't in line with sales of good?
[21:16] <Azelphur> sales of goods*
[21:16] <Azelphur> and derp, bbb is american only
[21:18] <Azelphur> either that or start trying lenovo, frustrating
[21:26] <Azelphur> Amazon asked me to write a review of their customer service, http://pastebin.com/ytdqQFY4 sound good?
[21:28] <mattt> "abysmally slow and ultimately support."
[21:28] <mattt> ?
[21:28] <Azelphur> mattt: whoops, there was meant to be a "useless" in there :P
[21:29] <mgdm> I'm just wondering if it's Amazon's fault that you've bought a laptop with Windows on
[21:29] <Azelphur> mgdm: it's their fault for not providing me with an option to buy it without Windows on, and it's their fault for not following the law and allowing me to return a product which I can't use
[21:30] <mgdm> I'd have said the latter was the manufacturer, and as for the former - well, you still bought it
[21:30]  * SuperEngineer goes to zzz land... nightie night folks - have a good one
[21:30] <mattt> i'm a bit with mgdm on this one
[21:30] <mattt> it's like me buying a car with a spec i'm not happy with
[21:30] <mattt> then blaming the dealership for not giving me the options i wanted :)
[21:30] <Azelphur> mattt: no it's not, your car doesn't come with a restrictive EULA
[21:31] <Azelphur> mgdm: I bought it because I wasn't presented with any other options, and the law states that they arn't allowed to do this :)
[21:32] <Azelphur> It's against the law for a reason
[21:34] <mattt> still doesn't make sense to buy it
[21:34] <Azelphur> mattt: yes it does, it's the laptop I wanted and I'm allowed to return Windows 7 under EU law, and Amazon has refunded in previous cases
[21:35] <Azelphur> this should be a straightforward matter, it's Amazon that is making it difficult
[21:35] <czajkowski> Azelphur: actually in most cases it has never been straightforward
[21:35] <czajkowski> many manufactures will still argue it
[21:35] <czajkowski> so t's not so simple
[21:35] <Azelphur> czajkowski: I know it's not simple, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be simple
[21:36] <czajkowski> apples and oranges
[21:36] <Azelphur> wat
[21:37] <mattt> Azelphur: what is the value of windows 7?
[21:37] <mattt> (out of curiousity)
[21:37] <Azelphur> mattt: around £60
[21:37] <Azelphur> but I imagine OEM's will pay less
[21:38] <mgdm> Quite considerably less
[21:38] <mgdm> I'd be surprised if you got 20 quid out of them (not that I'm saying you shouldn't try, of course)
[21:38] <Azelphur> sounds about right
[21:39] <Azelphur> I'm quite happy to keep bashing at them, it's wrong to not provide a simple refund mechanism for this, there's so many situations where Windows is not required with a machine
[21:39] <popey> Azelphur, which specific law have they broken?
[21:39] <Azelphur> popey: http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/08/pressure-mounts-on-windows-tax/ look at the second quoted paragraph
[21:40] <mgdm> I suspect that when I next buy a laptop I won't bother - the value of the refund is less than what I think my time's worth
[21:40] <popey> you quoted "EU bundling laws "
[21:40] <Azelphur> popey: that is the EU bundling law is it not?
[21:40] <popey> you tell me, you're mailing them as if you're an expert in this
[21:41] <Azelphur> haha, I'm no expert, I'm just following what the open sourcerer says, he's the expert on this
[21:41] <popey> if you contact them waving laws then you need to be nice and specific
[21:41] <popey> not give random names to stuff
[21:41] <mattt> and preferably don't link to blogs
[21:41] <mattt> :)
[21:42] <AlanBell> next time I buy a laptop it will quite possibly be a dell ultrabook if they release them here
[21:42] <AlanBell> and dont come up with the usual guff about the UK market being unsuitable for linux
[21:43] <ascenseur> night peeps... catch up with you soon! :)
[21:43] <mattt> ascenseur: ciao
[21:43] <AlanBell> o/
[21:43] <Azelphur> popey: again quoting what open sourcerer said to me before :)
[21:43] <ascenseur> mattt: a bientôt!
[21:43] <popey> right, and that wont work
[21:43] <Azelphur> I'm no lawyer, I'm mostly going on info I've found (I'm just a normal guy trying not to get sold something I don't want)
[21:44] <popey> if i sold something to someone and they start quoting random blogs at me I'd likely tell them to GTFO
[21:44] <AlanBell> you can return the whole thing, do that
[21:44] <popey> whereas if they quote specific laws.. I might be more interested
[21:44] <Azelphur> popey: even if the blog clearly showed that you'd given a refund in the past?
[21:44] <AlanBell> that is what someone who got one with Linux on it by accident might do
[21:45] <popey> its just a blog
[21:45] <popey> anyone can write one
[21:46] <Azelphur> AlanBell: maybe I will return it, I'll take their offer to call me tomorrow and if they won't give me my windows refund I'll return the whole thing
[21:46] <Azelphur> and then get the slightly higher spec version Lenovo has on offer atm for the same price :)
[21:46] <mgdm> and will Lenovo oblige?
[21:46] <popey> I'd be inclined to complain and try to get a refund but speak to them in a more professional way
[21:47] <Azelphur> mgdm: they've been bashed in court a couple of times over it, so hopefully yes, plus it's one central point to go at (everyone is confused as to retailer or manufacturer, this way there's no confusion)
[21:47] <mattt> yeah, calling them utterly useless isn't going to get you anywhere
[21:47] <mattt> at that rate, they're not going to take the entire thing back either :P
[21:47] <Azelphur> popey: I tried my best and I've come in here for advice every step of the way
[21:47] <Azelphur> not a whole lot more I could be doing
[21:47] <mgdm> be persistent, but polite
[21:48] <Azelphur> I have remained polite throughout the whole thing imo
[21:48] <Azelphur> even when they missed all the "We'll contact you before X with an answer" deadlines, I was still polite
[21:49] <popey> so, I'd research the laws they have broken
[21:49] <popey> and quote them
[21:49]  * Azelphur has a look
[21:49] <mattt> yeah, for all you know, that blog could be wrong
[21:50] <Azelphur> I doubt theopensourcerer is wrong he has quite a lot of experience on the windows tax thing
[21:50] <mattt> i don't doubt him
[21:50] <mattt> but find the actual information
[21:51] <popey> he does?
[21:51] <Azelphur> popey: yep
[21:51] <popey> the blog looks like he has experience of getting a windows refund on exactly one device
[21:51] <Azelphur> https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=theopensourcerer%20windows%20refund&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=35cf4c1a6dae8606&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=2844&bih=1477
[21:52] <popey> right, post that url to amazon and good luck
[21:52] <mattt> :P
[21:52] <Azelphur> popey: I don't see why you've dropped to not being sensible, I merely corrected you
[21:53] <popey> I gave you two pieces of advice which you don't seem interested in taking
[21:53] <popey> you seem to think Alan has lots of experience when in fact he's mostly blogged about one incident as far as I can see
[21:53] <Azelphur> popey: uhh, you said look up the law, I agreed and am reading the pdf right now?
[21:53] <popey> and repeating issues from other users
[21:53] <popey> good stuff
[21:53] <popey> good luck
[21:54] <Azelphur> I believe it falls under a faulty product since I can't use it unless I agree to the EULA
[21:54] <Azelphur> and the faulty product part states that I can request a partial refund
[21:54] <popey> I'd look up the definition of "faulty"
[21:55] <popey> you're closer to "unwanted product" than "faulty product"
[21:55] <Azelphur> Working badly or unreliably because of imperfections.
[21:55] <Azelphur> it doesn't work unless I agree to the EULA
[21:55] <mgdm> tenuous
[21:55] <Seeker`> but it is exactly what you ordered, in the state you expected it to be when you ordered it
[21:55] <Seeker`> that isn't faulty
[21:55] <Azelphur> short of turning on and showing me the EULA, which isn't really useful (I guess that'd fall under working badly)
[21:55] <Seeker`> thats getting what you asked for
[21:56] <Azelphur> Seeker`: *shrug* good point
[21:56] <popey> i wouldn't be making it up as I went along, as I said, see what law other people have used
[21:57] <Azelphur> popey: the page I linked you to from theopensourcer states that that is the law that other people have used
[21:58] <Seeker`> on a more serious note: Is there a problem drinking english breakfast tea at 11pm?
[21:58] <mgdm> Seeker`: No, of course not
[21:58] <bigcalm> mgdm: coming to Symfony Live?
[21:58] <mgdm> bigcalm: No - I don't use it
[21:59] <popey> \o/ joggler updated
[21:59] <Seeker`> mgdm: good, my thoughts too :D
[21:59]  * Seeker` has discovered loose leaf tea recently
[21:59] <mgdm> nice
[21:59] <popey> my mum always uses loose leaf tea
[21:59] <bigcalm> mgdm: maybe you should ;)
[21:59] <mgdm> popey: cool - what you using on it?
[21:59] <popey> what do you brew in?
[21:59] <mgdm> bigcalm: no immediate requirement
[21:59] <bigcalm> popey: updated to use what?
[21:59] <popey> mgdm, the updated openpeak firmware and some extras
[21:59] <Azelphur> but yea, I think I've got a decent plan of approach really, let them call me on Monday and see if they'll refund it, if not I'll just let them take the whole thing back then get the free upgrade from Lenovo and that should hopefully give me a much easier line of attack for getting a refund
[21:59] <Azelphur> so win win really
[21:59] <popey> http://www.jogglerwiki.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=664#p11705
[21:59] <Seeker`> popey: http://www.adagio.uk.com/teaware/glass_mug_and_infuser.html?SID=a6a874e33193421bbf59e9a768bdc035
[21:59] <popey> post 3 onward
[22:00] <bigcalm> mgdm: convince me some more that I should attend PHPNW
[22:00] <mgdm> popey: ah ha - I'll give that a look. I saw there was an Android Jelly Bean firmware the other day, I was tempted by it
[22:00] <mgdm> bigcalm: doooo eeeeet
[22:00] <bigcalm> Ha
[22:00] <popey> i played with android a bit
[22:00] <mgdm> bigcalm: you'll learn other useful things too!
[22:00] <mgdm> bigcalm: like... ummm... the stuff on the schedule!
[22:03] <popey> Azelphur, if you do decide to return it, its possible to get 20% discount direct from lenovo
[22:03] <popey> which offsets the cost of windows
[22:03] <Azelphur> popey: oh nice, hows that work?
[22:03] <Azelphur> is the 20% discount just a 20% discount, or is that an actual I don't want windows thing
[22:04] <popey> just 20% discount
[22:04] <Azelphur> ah
[22:05] <shauno> lenovo don't seem to have a good track record with the refunds.  the only ones I've seen have been dragged through court (and not always successfully)
[22:06] <Azelphur> shauno: worst case scenario I loose and get a better laptop for less money
[22:07] <Azelphur> the goal is to be one of the people who votes with his feet saying I don't want a machine with Windows
[22:07] <Azelphur> I'm not gonna cry over the loss of £20
[22:07] <popey> those dell ultrabooks do look nice
[22:07] <Azelphur> (I don't think anyone here would)
[22:07] <popey> not a thinkpad though
[22:07] <Azelphur> popey: linky? :)
[22:08] <popey> http://en.community.dell.com/techcenter/b/techcenter/archive/2012/05/07/developer-laptop-launches-project-sputnik.aspx
[22:08] <Azelphur> looks cool
[22:09] <Azelphur> unfortunately too big, 11.6 or smaller is what I'm in the market for :(
[22:10] <popey> thats quite small
[22:11] <Azelphur> indeed
[22:11]  * popey hugs his thinkpad
[22:11] <Azelphur> hehe
[22:11] <soreau> stinkpad :)
[22:11] <Azelphur> mine is a thinkpad too, just a tiny one
[22:12] <popey> finding it hard to justify anything other than thinkpad now I have one
[22:13] <popey> \o/ two jogglers flashed
[22:13]  * soreau wants a smaller (hand-held?) device that he can interface with his home automation system on the LAN
[22:14] <Azelphur> soreau: nexus 7? :D
[22:15] <soreau> Azelphur: not sure, I have to do research to see what would be most suitable for my purposes
[22:16] <soreau> also, the home automation system doesn't exist yet, nor the house
[22:16] <soreau> so there are some prerequisites ;)
[22:16] <bigcalm> mgdm: I've mailed my boss, which is a step closer to me committing to attending. We shall see if he wants to throw any money at me ;)
[22:16] <Azelphur> soreau: welcome to my world haha
[22:16] <soreau> Azelphur: hi :)
[22:16] <mgdm> bigcalm: \o/
[22:17] <bigcalm> mgdm: though I doubt that I'll be there for the 200 quid tutoring day
[22:17] <bigcalm> mgdm: will turn up for beers in the evening
[22:18] <christel> mmmbeer.
[22:18] <mgdm> that's my plan too
[22:19]  * bigcalm tickles christel into action
[22:20] <Seeker`> anyone here tried a line6 guitar?
[22:20] <bigcalm> mgdm: I've been adding new starred tracks to my Spotify account, have a listen ;)
[22:20] <mgdm> bigcalm: more Boney M? :D
[22:20] <bigcalm> LOL
[22:20] <bigcalm> NO!
[22:20]  * bigcalm shakes his head
[22:21]  * bigcalm wigs out to Barbra Streisand
[22:21] <mgdm> D:
[22:21] <bigcalm> She's the most wanted woman you know
[22:21] <mgdm> I'll take your word for it
[22:22] <christel> gosh, is she still alive?
[22:23]  * mgdm sleeps
[22:24] <mattt> bigcalm: spotify:track:4UHk2K8jvORnp6WGJMTriJ
[22:37] <AlanBell> Full. Of. Win. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nefPAXvMSKk
[22:54] <shauno> has that been stretched?  (still watching and quite interesting, just curious if his head's always that shape)
[22:55] <penguin42> he doesn't normally look that shape
[22:56] <bigcalm> shauno: this is how it was played to us on the day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J__Lmu4rnw4&feature=related
[23:01] <shauno> he seems to mostly know what he's talking about though, which is a nice change
[23:18] <penguin42> ooohk - who here is in Essex? and do you know what you did with your lion?
[23:18] <penguin42> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-19388301
[23:53] <popey> BED!