[00:01] LVM and RAID are the reason I use the alt, but 95% of the people I recommend it to use it because the graphical one won't load [00:01] micahg, if having cryptsetup means the user will be able to enrypt anything, then i suppose very slim. i've been in favor of dropping alt's too, but pleia2, Unit193 and others have raised concerns; based on those and my limited knowledge of all the use cases alt could have, i haven't made a final decision yet, but decided to leave it as it is [00:02] will server still have an alt? Not sure how you'd do an install over ssh with ubiquity [00:02] yeah, I think so [00:02] but server might not be i386 [00:02] there's always netboot [00:02] and mini [00:03] which i have been proposing for the alternative for alternate [00:03] this would also mean less effort needed for testing. [00:04] I'm also a grumpy old debian sysadmin so I <3 the d-i [00:04] pleia2, your marketing target audience didn't specify an age group [00:04] * [00:04] ;) [00:06] pleia2, how often do you recommend the alt to people since the graphical installer isn't loading? [00:07] * micahg would suggest testing early and often to get the GUI installer working [00:08] yes; alternate images are partly dragging the testing too [00:08] I don't have metrics to give a useful answer to that, and I admit that I don't do any debugging when it "doesn't work" since recommending the alt is usually the right answer [00:08] at least, it's the much easier one with a non-technical user [00:08] since we don't have non-PAE support in 12.10-> either, doesn't that already rule out some of the oldest machines, which are probably the ones that will not run the graphical installer? [00:09] true [00:09] and actually pointing people to rather use the mini installer and just do "sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop" isn't *too* hard [00:09] well, if mini will keep the alternate installer, I guess your solution to tell them to use tat and install xubuntu-desktop is ok [00:09] there is no alt/desktop for mini [00:09] mini is... mini. [00:10] ok, if mini will keep the debian installer... :) [00:10] :) [00:10] why wouldn't it? [00:10] it doesn't come with X packages [00:10] !minimal [00:10] The Minimal CD image is very small in size, and it downloads most packages from the Internet during installation, allowing you to select only those you want (the installer is like the one on the !Alternate CD). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD [00:10] I don't know, people do crazy things [00:10] Ubuntu 12.04 "Precise Pangolin" Minimal CD 27MB* [00:11] they could put ubiquity on the cd and just not install the shiny bits [00:11] lol [00:11] ... [00:11] as if... [00:11] I don't actually know how big ubiquity+dependencies are :) [00:11] maybe it's secretly small [00:11] haha [00:11] :) [00:12] if we drop the alt, and cryptsetup/LVM/RAID doesn't work for 12.10, how much do we lose? [00:13] it's the release after LTS, this is the place to do things like this [00:13] they will probably get it fixed by next LRS [00:13] *LTS [00:13] * knome knocks wood [00:13] loss of LVM would be :( [00:13] I use it a lot [00:13] LVM supposedly works, why not try it now [00:13] LVM should work [00:14] okie [00:19] I think that the big topic here is what do WE want, do we want to be a distribution aimed to old specs hardware, or we aim to be a full equiped alternative, standard paradigmatic, distribution aimed to all those who dislike the "unity path" [00:19] alternate disks are fine, but i've found using them on newer machines is useless [00:20] I have a 500MHz, 512M, 10G comp that has support for PAE, it doesn't count out all ones that don't take Ubiquity as well. [00:20] supporting older hardware is fine, but with not having a kernel supporting non-PAE already means we will lose some userbase [00:20] Unit193, but does it work with the graphical installer? [00:20] knome, yes, thats where the decision has to come [00:21] closer to the latter according to our strategy document (but I don't agree we're "aimed to all those who dislike the "unity path"") [00:21] so, even if we had the alternate disks, there's no way to support those machins with no PAE [00:21] My semi-modern netbook wont recognize the wireless network card on alternate, but it does on desktop iso's [00:21] yes, i wrote an article about it too: http://open.knome.fi/2012/08/19/xubuntu-is-not-a-refugee-camp/ [00:22] Well, if we drop alternate, we have to test mini and install xubuntu-desktop to see if we get the same things. [00:22] we dropped our "aimed to old specs hardware" thing a couple years ago ;) I point people to lubuntu [00:22] Unit193, of course, but that's a lot easier than testing two alt images of about 700MB [00:23] and alt keeps breaking so then micahg^Wsomeone has to fix it :\ [00:23] yeah, will probably keep breaking more after ubuntu drops support [00:23] yeah, that's my fear [00:23] unless you meant exactly that [00:23] pretty sure it's broken at the moment [00:23] well that goes without saying [00:24] it was yesterday anyway [00:24] :) [00:25] pleia2, exactly my point, i've been pointing people to lubuntu and even to tinycore if i think it deserves it [00:25] yes, it's not a competition really [00:25] I think we should make a point and say, well people, we need to move on. [00:26] moving on is not neglecting people with older hardware, there are many other distros pointed to them [00:26] knome: Technically, I'm pretty sure mine could get ubiquity to work, but I wouldn't personally bother. [00:26] in the theoretical case that we decided to keep alt... [00:27] 1) alt would break more often, or as much as now, but we would be fixing it ourself [00:27] 2) we would still need to continue testing alt; if we dropped, we could even add tests for mini and those would be easier to run anyway [00:28] What are Kubuntu, Lubuntu, and whatever else? [00:28] no idea [00:28] kubuntu probably drops it, if they haven't already [00:28] lubuntu might stick to it [00:28] and i hope they will [00:28] (and not just because that's one more reason to be able to drop alt from xubuntu9 [00:29] ) [00:29] heh [00:32] stgraber raised some concerns over LTSP installability with no alt; does anybody think that's essential for xubuntu? :P [00:32] hey sean [00:38] bluesabre, ? :) [00:39] alternate is currently broke due to the mismatching indicator gtk2 stack [00:40] mr_pouit said he'd upload the replacement stack at some point [00:40] * micahg can't get to it this week [00:40] yes, i talked with him; he asked for help from the lubuntu team too [00:45] knome, what's up? [00:47] bluesabre, as a very possible future xubuntu developer, what do you think of dropping/keeping alternate images? see: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-August/035675.html [00:48] Aren't one big benefit of the alternate images that you can install with significantly less ram? Which kinda benefits xubuntu and lubuntu installation scenarios I would imagine [00:50] probably, but would the system be usable with eg. 256 ram anyway? [00:51] well, anyway; there is always the minimal iso [00:51] install that + run "sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop" [00:51] Though alternates permit you to have no internet connection. [00:52] except when downloading, but i can see your point [00:52] how common do you think that is? [00:52] I think if we had a page somewhere on the website that showed how to use the minimal iso, it wouldn't be too bad [00:52] bluesabre, we can do that. it's really simple anyway [00:53] And not having the minimal isos would make less work and less testing, so theoretically a better product [00:53] you mean alt [00:53] ? :) [00:54] yeah [00:54] alt [00:54] :D [00:54] yes, i agree with that [00:55] knome, but there is apt-offline [00:56] Another reason to add it. :P [00:56] there's a mention of "aptoncd" on our docs, how useful is that? [00:56] people who have to download the iso can download a minimal and the offline for xubuntu-desktop [00:56] i know is a pita but... [00:56] there are better options for old hw than xubuntu [00:56] :/ [00:56] not that bad if we have a easy-to-follow tutorial though [00:56] well, not having an internet connection doesn't mean you have bad hardware [00:57] you might be just really isolated [00:57] siberia. [00:57] central africa. [00:57] antarctic. [00:57] ...Indiana. [00:57] yeah [00:57] sure, but if they get an iso they can get a smaller one and some offline apts [00:57] GridCube, though we can't suggest anything else than the whole xubuntu-desktop [00:58] GridCube, unless we create a xubuntu-minimal metapackage, which doesn't depend on the applications [00:58] eg. will leave abiword, gnumeric, ff, tb, gmb out [00:59] again, I think that the point is if we want to *really* adress those people, who have old hardware or not [01:00] if they are isolated but they can use the desktop image they will [01:00] right, that's true [01:00] unless they have one of the newer machines that won't support desktop [01:00] but that should be "fixed" by testing ubiquity more [01:02] sure, they can also have quantum microprocesors and whatnot, :P we cant make everyone happy, nor we should try to. We should try to make the most consistent product possible, knowing who we target and what we want to achieve [01:02] i think that our Strategy Document was clear on that [01:03] Bummer if we do drop it. Synaptic and alternate in the same release. :/ [01:03] Unit193, apt-get... :) [01:06] synaWHA?! [01:06] D: [01:06] synaptic is leaving?! jockey-gtk is leaving?! D: [01:06] Ah, all three in one, thanks GridCube. [01:07] its not my fault :( [01:07] i like those apps [01:08] quick, let's port them and rebase them on libmate! [01:08] gnome2 forever [01:08] :P [01:08] GridCube, synaptic is going simply because it isn't maintained actively [01:08] :| [01:08] sad [01:09] knome: I understand, just still think it is the best UI, even though it might be better to get rid since it is GTK2 as well. [01:10] Unit193, well yeah, you are of course free to install it, as goes with other apps; i believe many want to use chrome, evolve/claws, other music players ... [01:11] Yep, sure am. [01:11] again, quantal is LTS+1 [01:11] time to drop old stuff and get along [01:14] we're stuck with GTK2 until xfce is fully ported [01:14] yeah, that's true [01:14] but that doesn't make synaptic maintained :] [01:14] mvo keeps updating it :) [01:14] but hasn't he promised not to for a few times? :D [01:16] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-August/008393.html [06:43] how much RAM is needed to really run ubiquity? in the early days of ubiquity I had to add swap to not have it dying because of too little memory, instalation was awfully slow but still worked [06:46] I know many people use alternate because they trust it more than ubiquity, so it would be kinda better to not have crippled alt available [06:51] when ubiquity gets proper LVM support, doesn't that give RAID functionality? though as mentioned in that email it's quite easy to setup dmraid after installation [06:52] it gives you the ability to pool disks like raid0, but it's not the same [06:55] and it's much easier to set up raid in the installer [07:05] so it is question of having some functionality (and memory usage) [07:41] with 256MB livecd doesn't seem to boot, with 512MB and 64MB graphics memory installs just fine (current daily, now loading language package) [07:42] well, it did boot but stuck after loading panels [07:46] hi mips1911 [07:46] hi elfy [07:46] hey elfy. you happen to know anything about docbook? [07:47] fraid not knome - or I'd have answered your mail :( [07:47] heh, np [07:47] do you know anything about the conventions of ubuntu docs then? [07:47] for example, what does it mean that ~xubuntu-docs is a subteam of ~ubuntu-docs - what does that give us [07:48] I think that is possibly just the way that LP sets things up [07:48] forum membership team is a subteam of ubuntu members as another example [07:49] yeah, but i'm wondering if that gives us some permissions [07:49] I would think it would allow you to do what you need to do [07:49] i am sure there are some technical implications [07:49] yes, but what *is* that? :D [07:50] only documentation contributors can push, i think [07:50] I'd suggest the place to hang about waiting for a real answer would be #ubuntu-doc [07:50] well yeah, i've asked there and waited, and we've asked the ML [07:51] :( [07:51] seriously, it seems that if you want to get something done relatively quickly, you need to know somebody from a team [07:51] they are ever so good at communication ... [07:52] as anybody [07:53] I think if you can get hold of mdke you might get somewhere - sorry I can't be of more help [08:45] knome: I want to ask: Do you opt for removing the alternate images? [08:48] smartboyhw, if you'd follow our mailing list, you would know it's discussed [08:50] I know. I would opt for NOT having a alternate one, I will then do less testing:) [08:51] nobody is expected to do desktop+alt even currently, it should be a community effort [08:51] :) [08:53] knome: did main-buntu already decide to drop it or is it still in discussion? [08:53] Sysi: Main Ubuntu decided to drop it at Beta 1. [08:53] Sysi, it is not official yet i think, but i'm sure they will take that motion [08:54] I actually got PM with balloons about that, and he sure said that no alternate [08:55] minimal seems to work well for "advanced installation" even if it takes quite a while of downloading [08:56] Sysi, the 27MB? ;) [08:57] knome: I think he meant the need to download packages when installing [08:57] knome: xubuntu-desktop mostly [08:57] smartboyhw, yes, i know. i was only kidding. [08:58] knome: :) [08:58] Sysi, i believe it doesn't take much more than downloading the ISO [08:59] I'd guess so [09:03] I only use the alternate images, i never download the desktop ones. WOuld be sad if it's dropped. [09:04] mips1911: any reason for that? [09:04] Well, I think that the alternate images install faster. I don't know why... [09:04] mips1911, yeah, arguments [09:04] smartboyhw, probably because it doesn't need to run the graphical installer and thus more resources can be used to installing [09:05] Ah. Then I want the alternate images to stay now:) [09:05] ... [09:05] quantal daily installed very fast for me [09:06] of course there is less and less difference with faster hardware [09:06] Maybe I'm a bit inaccurate, I do it on VMs, though the same software:) [09:07] smartboyhw, it sounds like you haven't thought the issue thorough. please do that before commenting. [09:07] knome: Why? [09:08] because otherly your opinion doesn't really have much value [09:08] BTW, I don't understand why there is not LTSP when there's no alternate image. Does LTSP mean a LTS point release? [09:08] smartboyhw, why would i think your opinion is worth listening if you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about? [09:08] I prefer to do a custom cli install as the desktop image has to much stuff in it I don't need. Once I've done a cli install I copy all the packages from the cd/image over to my /var/cache/apt and continue installing what I need. Should I ever have an emergency where I quickly have to do a full install I can also use the alternate image (I install in in a VM anyway to compare my install vs the full xubuntu one as well). I could use the minimal install [09:08] image but I have slow internet and it takes to long that way and should I ever need a full install in a emergency I'm screwed. [09:09] smartboyhw, feel free to google too: http://www.ltsp.org/ [09:09] I've also had issues in the past where the desktop images refuse to boot on my pc. [09:09] mips1911: you can have desktop image for emergencies [09:09] Ah OK. [09:09] Sorry. [09:10] mips1911, well, that's one of the things we need to do. get more testing for the desktop images and fix ubiquity for more people [09:10] Sysi, I'm also bandwidth limited so downloading another iso image is not cool for me. [09:11] if mainline drops support for alternate, it will go sooner or later.. [09:11] another thing to consider is that since ubuntu drops alternate, maybe creating your own remastered disks will become easier [09:13] I wonder what's main-ubuntu's take on LTSP [09:13] Do you guys know if/when we will ever see delta deb support in ubuntu. This will help a lot for those with slow connections & limited bandwidth. I know there are some technical issues wrt to this but I'm seriously considering switching to fedora on the next release because they do delta rpms. i don't really want to but I might have to. [09:14] knome: Then why on 12.04.1 will people do less testing on the alternate images? I did it in the last moment. You said to get more testing for the desktop images, but I think both need more testing:) [09:14] Sysi, that's one of the reasons why i don't think it's official until b1 [09:14] I don't think the alternate images need more testing as they have never failed me where the desktop images have. [09:15] smartboyhw, i don't understand. [09:15] I've had an alternate fail. [09:15] Unit193: Uh oh. [09:15] knome: though when building something like ltsp-server, using minimal and building from it shouldn't be a problem [09:16] mips1911, to be honest, the alternates break wayyy more often than desktops while developing. it's quite often that you will have a build from one or more days ago [09:16] Also, a weird question: Other flavors of Ubuntu can build on 27th or 28th, but then why can't Xubuntu? It is stuck in 22nd. Ubuntu Studio is even worse, stuck in 21st:( [09:16] Sysi, yeah, but what if you want to repeat that for, say, 50 pc's? [09:16] knome, then I've been lucky [09:16] smartboyhw, that's because the alternate images have been failing to build. [09:17] Sysi, does the server image not pull in stuff by default desktop users don't need? [09:17] mips1911, you can select what you want in the server installation. [09:17] still even if i used the server image I would not be able to do a quick xubuntu desktop install. [09:17] mips1911, and if you want ltsp... it's probably not too much of a problem [09:17] mips1911: minimal sure doesn't [09:18] Sysi, I don;t use minimal [09:18] or I should rather say have not use minimal [09:18] knome: why would you install 50 LTSP servers [09:18] Sysi, if you need to? :] [09:19] Sysi, ask stgraber... :P [09:19] knome: I guess you could make local mirror and netinstall would be fast [09:19] How hard would it be to implement a minimal installer for as part of the desktop installer image? [09:20] knome: at my highschool we had fat-clients, they were installed and updated with netinstall and FAI, fully automatic install or something [09:20] If you could do both from one cd that kill two birds with one stone but that still leaves out stuff like LVM [09:21] mips1911, not pursueable by xubuntu team with these resources [09:21] Sysi, looks like there are options for the LTSP, read the follow-up messages to steves [09:22] Sysi, eg. click on "next message" at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-August/035675.html [09:22] more insight on other issues too [09:25] knome: I think your last link wasn't "by thread", I'm reading that now [09:26] Sysi, mm [09:28] xubuntu-core = xfce4 I guess (there's already this minimal metapackage) [09:28] hey [09:28] hey mr_pouit [09:28] mr_pouit, and default-settings? [09:29] Default settings, shimmer-themes. [09:29] default settings would imply shimmer-themes, yeah [09:30] does xfce4 depend on xorg? it doesn't include DM, how minimal are we talking about.. [09:30] Sysi, i'm 99.999999% certain it does. :) === smartboyhw_ is now known as smartboyhw [09:35] does dropping jockey finally make installing nvidia drivers with apt-get work? [09:36] Sysi, jockey should now be integrated with software-properties-gtk. i don't know how, though [09:36] Didn't work half as well for me. [09:36] oki, new wallpaper folks [09:36] http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/quantal_wall/wall-draft-1-simons-size-3.png [09:37] i like that it's still called "simons-size" :} [09:37] and slideshow remake: [09:37] http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/quantal_blueprints/slideshow-remake.png [09:37] ochosi, that could be it's name for the shimmer package :P [09:37] Slideshow is nice, wallpaper is slightly bland, but people change that to whatever they want I'm sure. [09:38] it's very simple for a change, and no theme in it really [09:38] Too late this cycle, but "community wallpapers" going for another round? [09:38] we simply have no space, so yeah [09:38] let's see what the situation is with R [09:38] or if we can get non-oversized for Q either :P [09:39] Additional wallpapers/themes or other additions in the repo? [09:39] Unit193, mmh, well, when we are planning R, can you add that item to the roadmap proposals so we don't forget it? [09:40] Unit193, i don't have any reasons not to pursue that, but this cycle was too frantic for that [09:40] i will need some new screenshots for the slideshow [09:40] i'll ping you people when i know what [09:40] It looks like in future I would have to download both the minimal & desktop images, do a minimal install and copy the packages from the desktop image over to my minimal image in order to do what I currently do with the alternate image. I'll just have to figure out how to extract the packages from the squashfs [09:41] aptoncd? [09:42] 7zip liked those, iirc. Also, apt-offline? [09:42] knome, can aptoncd access live images to extract packages? [09:43] mips1911, i have no idea about that, but i believe you can create a cd with packages with that. [09:44] mips1911, what you are doing is simply trying to avoid to try and fix ubiquity [09:44] would it makse any sense to add minimal-installation option to ubiquity? [09:44] knome, yes but it has to download them via the repos as far as i know. I'm trying to avoid that and I would no know all the packages I need. [09:45] s/makse/make [09:45] I've used that feature of alt-cd couple times as well [09:45] Think http://ubottu.com/ljl/apt/ is broken. [09:46] knome, i'm not a dev and don't have a clue so I would leave that up to you guys that know what you are doing [09:46] Sysi, you should take that to ubuntu, again xubuntu doesn't have the manpower to maintain [09:46] yeah [09:47] i don't think it's going to happen, but there might be a very slim chance of it happening [09:47] but why would they add it to desktop if it's failing on alt? [10:00] Grr, skip my previous idea. I just realised the desktop image does not contain and .deb files [10:02] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dylanmccall/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/preview/xubuntu/slides/index.html Anyway to get that to pull from another bzr branch? [10:04] hmm? [10:04] https://code.launchpad.net/~ubiquity-slideshow/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/html [10:05] i haven't pushed the new slideshow yet, though [10:06] Yeah, was under the impression that page was pulling info directly, or something weird. [10:07] heh [10:07] i've no idea [10:07] probably not [10:07] at least from my pc... >:) [10:34] micahg: (for the record, check #u-devel a few mins ago) it seems we'll have to port indicator-messages back to gtk2, since the old gtk2 version won't work anymore === yofel_ is now known as yofel [11:04] knome: about new wallpaper, what if circles of bottom right were a bit bigger and maybe higher? [11:04] Sysi, possible [11:06] it interferes with focusing to bottom panel a bit now [11:06] yeah, we'll need to fix that [11:07] well, it works with default panel layout or panel on top but I think having panel on bottom is quite popular too [11:08] (and it just might look better, maybe give it a shot) [11:09] sure === red_ is now known as amerigena [11:22] Email said to join #xubuntu-devel and post if I wanted to contribute to the Docbook effort. [11:23] I'd get ready for knome to snatch your hand off then :) [11:24] OK. [11:24] You know docbooks? [11:25] No. But the email stipulated that experience wasn't strictly necessary. [11:26] It's OK if you don't know anything [11:26] about Docbook. Just come hang around and we'll see what we can do. [11:27] Sure, was just asking until knome shows up and says something. [11:28] something [11:28] amerigena, do you know docbook already? [11:28] Nope. [11:28] Don't. [11:29] knome: Missed the period, and scrollback. ;) [11:29] amerigena, familiar with bzr? [11:30] Somewhat. [11:30] okay, get a copy of our docs: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/quantal/+source/xubuntu-docs [11:31] 'bzr branch lp:ubuntu/xubuntu-docs' that is [11:31] i don't know docbook myself, so i don't know where to start [11:31] i do know something though [11:33] you will need docbook, docbook-utils and gnome-doc-utils to be able to build the documentation. [11:33] at least. [11:34] we don't plan to change the template much (only stylesheets) this release, so what we would need is somebody who is familiar enough with the docs to be able to, simply (or not), drop in new text [11:34] OK. [11:34] exit [11:34] i believe that is rather trivial, but i really don't have time myself to look at it, at least not now [11:35] the doc string freeze is on Sep 20, so things need do happen before that [11:35] if you hang around this channel, you will get guidance and pointers on what we need [11:35] OK/ [11:35] I got a copy of the documentation, and will look at it this afternoon. [11:35] and finally, don't feel obliged to do more than you can. if you feel you've had, or start having enough, just tell us [11:36] we will try to help as much as we can [11:36] but we simply lack hands to do everything :) [11:40] Understood. Looking forward to (hopefully) being one of those helping hands. [11:41] somebody has Q installed? [11:42] Kind of. [11:42] No. [11:42] what does that mean? [11:42] smartboyhw, i don't need the information you don't === tech_ is now known as amerigena [12:54] mr_pouit: ted told me that they weren't going to break it :( [12:55] yeah, sucks pretty bad imo [12:55] especially when there's so little time to think about good alternatives [12:57] tbh I think they'll drop gtk2 support of libindicat* in R [12:57] and xfce will still be gtk2 [12:58] mr_pouit: has there been any progress in porting the panel to gtk3 upstream? [12:58] no [13:00] :( [13:10] there seems to be a huge bunch of problems comming on :/ [13:11] with mainbuntu choosing to move on to gtk3 and all that [13:11] Quite. [13:12] I think that the decision to drop alternate should be made soon, it will save lots of time on people who actually know how to do stuff [13:12] GridCube, we will make it before beta1, aka thursday [13:13] I'll send a mail to the respect now [13:19] do 4.10 action buttons need xscreensaver for user-switching? (is dropping xscreensaver discussion done?) [13:19] Sysi, we won't drop it now [13:31] bbl [16:40] anyone know if I should expect to see nvidia drivers in the additional drivers software-centre tab? [16:41] elfy: usually a seperate popup [16:41] elfy, I didn't see them in there in 12.10 [16:41] holstein: not in 12.10 holstein [16:41] I don't think they build right now [16:41] if you search nvidia, you'll see it, but that doesnt mean you need it.. i usually refer to the wiki [16:41] bluesabre: aah ok - they went walkabout a while ago :) [16:42] holstein: I know I can find it - was thinking about others expecting to find it in add drivers - cos they will :) [19:15] knome: Do we still support/recommend exaile? http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10/Music [19:19] bluesabre, no. gmb is the one for that [19:20] I thought so [19:20] Cleanup time :D [19:20] y [19:20] I just thought it was odd that we still mention it in our offline doc [19:20] yeah, it's not updated yet [19:21] (the section) [19:21] I'll work on it for a bit [19:22]