[00:03] <stochastic> smartboyhw, you were trying to grab my attention a little while ago, what's up?
[00:41] <ailo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ReleaseNotes
[00:42] <knome> uh
[00:44] <ailo> knome: relax. I'm not suggesting we change to Gnome
[00:44] <ailo> ;)
[00:44] <knome> i'm not worried about that ;)
[00:45] <knome> it's just i think there are enough remixes already
[00:45] <knome> or whatever their names
[00:48] <ailo> Would be strange not to have a gnome derivative?
[00:48] <ailo> Which I assume this is to be
[00:48] <knome> hmm, no... :P
[01:03] <knome> going to bed now
[01:03] <knome> good night!
[01:09] <ailo> Good night
[01:09] <ailo> I actually just woke up
[01:09] <ailo> But a bit too early to say good morning
[03:19] <len-1210> hmm, our ISO installs again. nautilus goes by its own name and has a menu bar again.
[03:21] <ailo> len-1210: Yea, they decided to go back to the older version for now
[03:21] <ailo> Of nautilus
[03:21] <holstein> yeah, i think we should think about bailing on it
[03:22] <holstein> going with thunar or whatever
[03:22] <holstein> for me, keeping nautilus was a way to be more "gnome2" like
[03:22] <ailo> Might be smart to skip any non-xfce apps all together
[03:23] <holstein> the xubuntu one is nice
[03:23] <holstein> thunar, right?
[03:23] <ailo> It's the xfce file manager
[03:23] <holstein> yeah... thats what i meant
[03:23] <ailo> Practically the same thing
[03:23] <ailo> I mean, as nautilus
[03:24] <holstein> there are some things that are missing, but nautilus is removing those features
[03:24] <len-1210> The problem with double icons for removable devices is only in the live session
[03:24] <ailo> len-1210: Did you add the gnome-system-monitor already?
[03:24] <ailo> holstein: Like what?
[03:24] <len-1210> yes 
[03:24] <holstein> ailo: i forget.. someone in xubuntu was complaining and i looked it up
[03:25] <holstein> that "join network" menu was one
[03:25] <len-1210> thunar is missing two things I need: search and sftp:
[03:25] <holstein> something else key though... something with the view i though
[03:25] <holstein> maybe it was search
[03:25] <ailo> holstein: They dropped paned view
[03:25] <holstein> whatever it was, it was valid
[03:26] <ailo> holstein: But, don't think there was anything else. You meant "connect to network"
[03:26] <ailo> The biggest change is just putting the whole menu inside one button
[03:26] <holstein> ailo: yeah, i really missed that "connect to network" thing
[03:27] <len-1210> Nautilus allows using directories on other systems
[03:27] <len-1210> It is really nice for backup
[03:27] <ailo> "connect to server", was what I meant
[03:27] <holstein> len-1210: i think these are things that xubuntu would be interested in having
[03:28] <holstein> ailo: whatever its called.. i think its slick
[03:28] <len-1210> thunar can do the sftp with outside help
[03:28] <holstein> len-1210: gigolo?
[03:28] <len-1210> search was a separate app
[03:28] <ailo> holstein: Nautilus was not dropping the "connect to server" feautre. AFAIK, only paned view
[03:28] <ailo> The rest is just cosmetics
[03:28] <holstein> ailo: yeah, it was folks missing that in thunar
[03:29] <len-1210> holstein, yes, but with some extra package we don't have
[03:29] <holstein> someone wanting nautilus running in xubuntu
[03:29] <ailo> They can always install it if they want
[03:29] <holstein> len-1210: i was wondering if its something that would be appreciated upstream
[03:29] <len-1210> I have had some problems with thunar dying on me
[03:29] <ailo> Also, there are other applications for mounting filesystems. I usually use sshfs using the terminal
[03:30] <holstein> im using thunar 1.0.2
[03:30] <holstein> ailo: sshfs is what gigolo would be doing right?
[03:30] <holstein> kind of a gui for that and other things?
[03:30] <len-1210> Ya
[03:31] <holstein> after i found gigolo, i didnt "need" nautilus anymore
[03:31] <holstein> that was the last thing i just didnt understand how to replace with my skill level
[03:32] <ailo> So far Gnome hasn't dropped any features, other than cosmetic, AFAIK. Only been adding them
[03:32] <ailo> Some gui controls are changing, becoming more minimalistixc
[03:32] <holstein> nothing wrong with that
[03:33] <holstein> im suprised the ubuntu-gnome edition isnt bigger already
[03:33] <holstein> ailo: http://ugr.teampr0xy.net/home-1
[03:33] <len-1210> the one thing missing was an about box.... so I could find out what the program was called
[03:33] <holstein> i thought you might want to get in on that
[03:33] <ailo> I think it's a general misconception of Gnome3, since it's not as easy to customize at first glance
[03:34] <ailo> holstein: Ubuntu is getting a Gnome derivative soon
[03:34] <ailo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/ReleaseNotes
[03:34] <ailo> Based on Gnome 3.6
[03:34] <holstein> i thought that was it
[03:35] <holstein> i saw "them" asking about how to set up an irc channel
[03:35] <holstein> i just thought it would have been right when the switch to unity happened
[03:35] <ailo> Ah, didn't read more closely
[03:36] <len-1210> there have been changes to the theme too
[03:36] <ailo> Gnome3 would have needed more developers working on customization. The initial config is a bit crude
[03:36] <len-1210> the window with focus now has a blue top bar
[03:36] <len-1210> and most other highlights are blue too
[03:37] <holstein> well, the initial unity at that time was on par i thought
[03:37] <holstein> i think now its too little too late
[03:38] <holstein> folks have either jumped to mint, or like unity
[03:38] <holstein> not that i dont want to try it out, and support it
[03:38] <ailo> Don't think it matters. If Gnome3, or rather Gnome4, which is not that far away, will rock a bit more, I think it will automatically create interest
[03:39] <ailo> Problem is all the veteran nix people, who don't like to leave the 90's
[03:39] <holstein> i think for some more tech-y folk
[03:39] <holstein> i was thinking the ubuntu community though.. they are likely using unity now, and the newcomers as well
[03:39] <holstein> we'll see.. i dont think gnome3 is bad either
[03:39] <holstein> i like it and unity just fine now that they have "had time to bake"
[03:40] <holstein> the time was unfortunate i think... and neither one are really anything im interested in running on my desktop full time i dont think
[03:40] <len-1210> I guess I am one of the old guys ;)
[03:40] <holstein> len-1210: hehe!
[03:41] <len-1210> I was looking at fvwm again and thinking how nice it was
[03:41] <ailo> I've been running Gnome3 for the past 6 months, and have no complaints
[03:41] <ailo> But I can see why people don't see the benefits
[03:41] <ailo> It does take a few moments to get into new features too
[03:42] <len-1210> I have two problems with unity... both speed things
[03:42] <len-1210> it takes a long time to change desktops (1 to 3 or what ever)
[03:43] <len-1210> it takes a long time to start any app not on the left bar
[03:43] <ailo> I felt Unity was slow too
[03:43] <holstein> it was... its faster now.. still pokey in a couple spots
[03:43] <len-1210> these are not a problem for many people
[03:44] <holstein> its the general layout of both that i just dont need
[03:44] <len-1210> I was talking as of 12.04
[03:44] <len-1210> My wife has it and it is fine fore her, she uses three app
[03:45] <len-1210> one at a time
[03:45] <ailo> Both Unity and Gnome3 are trying to integrate the web into the desktop, but so far, I think both are not doing the best job at it
[03:45] <len-1210> our ISO is still missing two metas
[03:46] <ailo> Need to get moving. Taking a bus to a neighbour city today. Will probably start a "network technician" education there shortly
[03:46] <ailo> Later guys
[03:46] <len-1210> G'luck
[03:47] <holstein> ailo: o/
[04:15] <len-dt> micahg, no need to answer just now. I am wondering if the new metas will make it for this cycle or should I put the apps back into the graphics meta for now? And if so, would it hurt to leave the apps in both places...
[04:22] <len-dt> micahg, I forgot to add. ubuntustudio-default-settings has two bug fixes (again) There is a third to do, but I am waiting for information.
[04:23] <micahg> len-dt: ok, unless the fixes are critical for beta 1, I'll upload after that, as for the metas, just ask cjwatson if he can do it after beta 1, I seem to be missing something WRT the metas somehow
[04:23] <len-dt> micahg, not critical
[04:24] <len-dt> Our ISO seems to install. 
[07:01] <len-dt> ailo, beta 1 fails. It does not install. Did we set device auto mounting on purpose or can we deselect it?
[07:06] <len-dt> or can we set it up different in live from install?
[08:12] <smartboyhw> Hello all
[08:17] <smartboyhw> ailo, len-dt: What are your comments on Ubuntu GNOME remix? Also I didn't test the build, my download speed is bad:(
[08:19] <smartboyhw> I mean the Beta 1:)
[12:31] <smartboyhw> ailo: do you know if there is a Quantal lowlatency kernel git like in your email?
[13:32] <len-dt> smartboyhw, beta 1 does not install right. As soon as partman formats the partition our de mounts it then ubiquity gets upset and says it won't install to a mounted partition.
[13:33] <len-dt> I was able to work around that though
[13:33] <smartboyhw> OK, I can't test it, strangely cdimage has a very poor internet connection
[13:38] <scott-work> hi len-dt, did you have have a good camping trip?
[13:38] <len-dt> Aye
[13:39] <len-dt> scott-work, how are you?
[13:39] <scott-work> ailo: maybe your email (and leanne's poke) might help move andy forward on the procedures
[13:39] <scott-work> len-dt: i believe i'm doing okay
[13:39] <smartboyhw> Hi scott-work
[13:39] <len-dt> scott-work, our ISO doesn't install without fidling
[13:39] <scott-work> hello smartboyhw 
[13:40] <scott-work> "fidling"?  hmmmm, that's a little concerning, no?
[13:40] <len-dt> Very.
[13:40] <smartboyhw> scott-work: I wonder: Can I be mod of the Ubuntu Studio section of Ubuntu Forums?
[13:40] <len-dt> if doing the "use whole disk" install it fails
[13:40] <scott-work> smartboyhw: i don't have control of that, i'm not actually sure who does really. sto.chastic is a mod though, you might ping him
[13:41] <smartboyhw> Oh OK, since jussi is not helping out now, and he (or she) told me to ask you
[13:41] <scott-work> len-dt: is that something vanilla is experiencing as well or just localized to ubuntu studio
[13:42] <scott-work> smartboyhw: there is also a "ubuntu forums council", i believe, that might have the authority to set mods
[13:42] <len-dt> The DE auto mounts the newly created partition and ubiquity won't install on it
[13:42] <scott-work> smartboyhw: but you can always google search how to be a mod in ubuntu forums
[13:42] <smartboyhw> Sure, but then I think I need your approval
[13:42] <len-dt> So if we set no auto mount it should fix it.
[13:43] <len-dt> however, we had automount set last rel and no problem
[13:43] <scott-work> smartboyhw: i think jussi.'s default answer these days is "see Scott" for everything. even the things i don't do or know about :P
[13:43] <smartboyhw> ;P
[13:43] <smartboyhw> So then how? I don't even seee stochastic on the forums these days
[13:43] <scott-work> len-dt: i wonder if something changed elsewhere that might be affecting this
[13:43] <scott-work> smartboyhw: you can send sto.chastic an email from his launchpad account
[13:43] <smartboyhw> I'm answering a few questions at least
[13:44] <scott-work> len-dt: meaning, it worked last release, vanilla made a change but also changed the automount setting, and now we are having issues
[13:44] <len-dt> xfce4.10/thunar may be more agressive about looking for new partitions to mount or ubiquity may not be fast enough grabbing it.
[13:44] <scott-work> len-dt: perhaps asking colin might shed some light or at least get a point of contact for who might know about it
[13:45] <len-dt> I will be talking to him anyway so I will ask. does he hang out on an irc channel ? which one should I look at?
[13:46] <len-dt> scott-work, I need to help my wife out the door to school back in a bit.
[13:46] <smartboyhw> Oh ok
[13:46] <scott-work> len-dt: i would say #ubuntu-devel is the most active that i have seen
[13:49] <stochastic> hi smartboyhw 
[13:49] <smartboyhw> Hi stochastic
[13:49] <smartboyhw> I wanna be mod at the Ubuntu Studio section of Ubuntu Forums,
[13:50] <falktx> smartboyhw: afaik you need to be very active within that forum section first
[13:50] <smartboyhw> Sure, I'm getting to it:)
[13:50]  * falktx says 'hi all'!
[13:50] <smartboyhw> I did make some post
[13:50] <smartboyhw> Oh sure here comes falktx who wants to topple scott-work's throne:(
[13:51] <stochastic> yes, that's certainly true, very active. I think I was at around 2000+ posts before I was given moderator status there
[13:51] <smartboyhw> Wow, ok
[13:51] <stochastic> the Ubuntu Studio section is the only section (or was at the time) where there was other moderators than the standard forum moderators
[13:51] <smartboyhw> Not now
[13:52] <stochastic> and it's a process that requires the Ubuntuforums staff's approval, not really the Ubuntu Studio team's approval
[13:52] <stochastic> jussi was also a moderator there, not sure if he's still very active there - I know my work there has died off significantly
[13:53] <smartboyhw> Garoff
[13:54] <stochastic> is there any particular reason why you need moderator status in that forum?
[13:54] <smartboyhw> Since you guys have not been active there, and I wanna help:)
[13:58] <smartboyhw> Er, do I get a reply?
[14:00] <smartboyhw> ...stochastic, len-dt, scott-work: Then will tmr's image have a clean build?
[14:01] <len-dt> clean?
[14:01] <smartboyhw> I mean no bugs
[14:02] <len-dt> We will have bugs till after beta one. we are missing most of the photo and publishing applications
[14:03] <smartboyhw> Yep, but then can we ensure we can actually install?
[14:03] <len-dt> A bit early to tell
[14:03] <smartboyhw> Well, two days remaining
[14:04] <len-dt> Scool starts today for one of my sons... I have other things to do too
[14:05] <jussi> no bugs is an unattainable attribute... (the cake is a lie)
[14:06] <len-dt> being able to install is pretty big
[14:07] <smartboyhw> HAHAHA
[14:08] <smartboyhw> Well I think being able to install is the prerequisite
[14:15] <len-dt> scott-work, I have in the past had thunar try to mount fresh partitions too. It seems to be a race thing where it depends on how fast ubiquity mounts the partition.
[14:15] <len-dt> Most of the time it was ok. I suspect changes in ubiquity have made it a bit slower at mounting things.
[14:16] <len-dt> Is the automount setting a big thing? it may be best to just turn it off by default.
[14:17] <len-dt> one could argue that having something mount itself in the middle of audio work is not something we want anyway.
[14:17] <len-dt> Or... can we have it turned off in live and on after install?
[14:30] <smartboyhw> len-dt: On the last question, I think we should give full potential and features of the OS to the guys who just wanna try it.
[14:55] <scott-work> hi falktx  :)
[14:55] <smartboyhw> len-dt is not answering:(
[14:56] <scott-work> smartboyhw: i believe we (len really) is still triaging the problem
[14:56] <smartboyhw> scott-work: Len is our golden boy isn't he?:)
[14:56] <scott-work> to the image (or clean build)
[14:57] <scott-work> len-dt: are we including thunar still on the image? i seem to recall that we were moving completely to nautilus, is that still the goal?
[14:58] <scott-work> smartboyhw: "On the last question, I think we should give full potential and features of the OS to the guys who just wanna try it." i'm not i understand what point you are trying to make
[14:59] <smartboyhw> Well I mean that we should not just omit a feature in live and enable it after install
[15:03] <len-dt> scott-work, smartboyhw it would not omit it, just change the setting, however the ubiquity devs want to fix ubiquity. So I will let them. It seems thunar keeps moving where its config is kept from release to release.
[15:03] <smartboyhw> len-dt: OK YEAH!
[15:03] <shnatsel> ubiquity talk?
[15:03] <shnatsel> !logs
[15:05] <len-dt> cj watson would like to have things so that if any flavour decides to enable automount it will still install.
[15:05] <smartboyhw> Looking at it now
[15:05] <shnatsel> AFAIK it can be disabled in one of Ubiquity's functions
[15:06] <smartboyhw> OK
[15:06] <shnatsel> there's a dedicated setting for locking the desktop during installation - disabling user switching, etc etc
[15:06] <shnatsel> but I'm not entirely sure when the function is called
[15:06] <shnatsel> you can disable the automount in ubiquity_dm binary but it's not clear how to bring it back
[15:07] <shnatsel> at least I haven't figured out how to revert a similar change when it's done from ubiquity_dm
[15:07] <shnatsel> if you do, please tell me
[15:09] <shnatsel> the locking funtion I've been talking about is lockdown_environment(self)  in ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py
[15:10] <holstein> smartboyhw: o/
[15:11] <smartboyhw> \o holstein
[15:38] <smartboyhw> !ubuntustudio-dev is <alias> ubuntustudio-devel
[16:41] <scott-work> len-dt:  would you be able to compile a loose list of things changed recently that we can ask testers to confirm?
[16:42] <scott-work> len-dt: what i am thinking is basing this off of the completed items in the blueprints and noting either in email or in the release notes (started by skaet) for the milestone images
[16:42] <scott-work> this would also afford us a list for the final release notes when released
[16:43] <scott-work> and by the way len-dt, thank you VERY MUCH for your efforts in this cycle in particular, we certainly would not have made nearly the same progress without your efforts
[16:49] <len-dt> scott-work, sorry zoned out a bit. watching -release to see if ubiquity is going to get fixed or I should make a change to -settings so we can at least install...
[17:17] <len-dt> scott-work, -default-settings has been changed to no automounting of removable storage devices.
[17:17] <len-dt> This will allow our ISO to install. The user can set auto mount from settings once they install.
[17:18] <scott-work> len-dt: that sounds like a good, prudent plan
[17:18] <scott-work> at least we can get testing done currently
[17:18] <len-dt> scott-work, I have wondered in the past if it is a good idea to have something automount while recording...
[17:19]  * len-dt thinks pluggin something in while recording is not smart
[17:19] <scott-work> hehe, you are probably right ;)
[17:28] <len-dt> Ok, it's in. Looks like it made it before respin.
[18:17] <scott-work> len-dt: sweet! who uploaded it for you to the repos?
[18:17] <scott-work> oh. i see the bug report, looks like colin did
[18:19] <scott-work> len-dt: would the high resolution timer adjustment help ralf with MIDI jitter?
[18:30] <len-dt> scott-work, I don't know. I have yet to be able to reproduce any problems I have had.
[18:31] <len-dt> I would think Ralph would have tried it though. In any case Ralph does not use USB MIDI ports, he has something more stable either PCI or FW
[19:25] <ailo> scott-work: Yea, seems like the ball is rolling now
[19:28] <ailo> len-dt: I didn't know about the auto mount part. I'm pretty oblivious to what happens during installation, from a non user perspective. 
[19:32] <ailo> I really have a nack to make a mess on mail lists
[19:32] <ailo> or, rather, knack for making..
[19:33] <len-dt> ailo, auto mount is now off by default.
[19:34] <ailo> len-dt: The disk can't be mounted while partitioning, right? But, the installer should know this, no?
[19:35] <ailo> I suppose this only happens if installing from desktop, with auto mount on?
[19:35] <ailo> And what if you manually mount the disk, and the install?
[19:35] <len-dt> At some point ubiquity will work with automount enabled. But disabled is, in my mind better anyway as it uses thunar and everything else uses nauilus
[19:36] <ailo> Only usb devices are usually auto mounted, from my experience
[19:36] <len-dt> If you manually mount, ubiquity will ask to dismount and then it can continue. With auto mount it goes in circles
[19:36] <ailo> Weird
[19:37] <ailo> len-dt: But, then the auto mount is mounting in a different way, right?
[19:37] <len-dt> It seems anyting not mounted by default is thought of as removable
[19:37] <len-dt> different mountpoint
[19:37] <len-dt> xfce4.10 moves the file where thunar keeps it's configs
[19:38] <len-dt> this breaks ubiquity
[19:38] <len-dt>  http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2008-04-12-desktop-automount-pain.html
[19:38] <len-dt> ailo, see the link for more info
[19:39] <ailo> I see
[19:41] <ailo> Well, I'm going to bed. Hopefully I passed the test today, and am able to start studying for different certificates soon
[19:41] <ailo> Individual study pace, and freedom of choice what certificates are concerned, paid by the government
[19:41] <ailo> I'm going Linux as much as possible, of course
[19:41] <ailo> The test was a bit funny. The computer part was mostly about msdos
[19:42] <ailo> Like a bad joke
[19:42] <ailo> Anyway, gn
[23:32] <smartboyhw> len-dt: Good morning
[23:35] <len-dt> aaaalllllrrrrreeeaaadddyyyy?????
[23:35] <smartboyhw> len-dt: Come on it's 7:35 AM. How is the ubiquity going for Beta 1?
[23:36] <smartboyhw> At least in here:)
[23:37] <len-dt> If we get a respin it should be okish
[23:37] <smartboyhw> :)
[23:37] <len-dt> probably will install from boot ok but not from live session till the respin
[23:37] <smartboyhw> OK
[23:38] <len-dt> still missing two metas, but we are waiting till after beta1 to fix that.
[23:38] <smartboyhw> Anyway gotcha go to school now:)