| === MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch | ||
| === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow | ||
| === dandrader is now known as dandrader|afk | ||
| === dandrader|afk is now known as dandrader | ||
| === gustavold1 is now known as gustavold | ||
| === dandrader is now known as dandrader|lunch | ||
| === dandrader|lunch is now known as dandrader | ||
| cr3 | has anyone used a wacom bamboo tablet as a multi touch device? is there anything special I need to do? | 19:37 |
|---|---|---|
| cr3 | running mtdev-test /dev/input/event12 returns nothing after supported mt events :( | 19:44 |
| cr3 | however, the hardware support page seems to indicate that wacom usb has been supported since 11.04: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Multitouch/HardwareSupport | 19:45 |
| dandrader | not me | 20:04 |
| cnd | cr3: the bamboo touch should work out of the box as a touchpad | 20:06 |
| cnd | which means that X synaptics will grab the dev event node | 20:06 |
| cnd | so mtdev and any similar programs like evemu and evtest will not work unless you stop X or vt switch away | 20:07 |
| === dandrader is now known as dandrader|afk | ||
| cr3 | cnd: it should work as a touchscreen rather than a touchpad, right? ie, I shouldn't expect to do two finger scrolling, not that I know how to get it working with my finger anyways | 20:13 |
| cnd | cr3: you can make it behave like a touchscreen if you want | 20:13 |
| cnd | but by default it behaves like a touchpad | 20:13 |
| cnd | because it isn't a touchscreen | 20:13 |
| cnd | and the bamboo touch line is usually a bit too small to actually behave like a touchscreen | 20:14 |
| cr3 | cnd: this is a bamboo tablet (mte-450) though, it behaved like a touchscreen when I plugged it in: http://www.tablet4u.co.uk/product/en/bamboo-tablet.html | 20:15 |
| cnd | cr3: when you say it behaved like a touchscreen, what exactly do you mean? | 20:15 |
| cnd | maybe I am misunderstanding | 20:15 |
| cr3 | cnd: heh, and maybe I'm not expressing myself well because this is all new to me :) first, in system settings, it appears as a wacom graphics tablet. second, the tablet only responds to the stylus so I can't imagine how it could be used as a touchpad | 20:18 |
| cnd | cr3: in X terms, we use "direct" and "indirect" input devices | 20:19 |
| cnd | a direct input device, like a touchscreen, makes the cursor move to wherever you touch on the device | 20:19 |
| cnd | if you touch the top left corner, the cursor will move to the top left corner of the screen, no matter where it was previously | 20:19 |
| cnd | an indirect device will behave like a touchpad, where the cursor movement is controlled by relative motion of the input device | 20:20 |
| cnd | an indirect device is also a relative device, like a mouse | 20:20 |
| cnd | in fact, indirect is very similar to "relative", and direct is very similar to "absolute" positioning | 20:20 |
| cnd | I'm not exactly sure how your bamboo tablet would behave, I was thinking about my bamboo touch, which only has touch input (no pen) | 20:21 |
| cnd | I actually do expect your tablet to behave like a touchscreen, but we'd have to check to be sure | 20:21 |
| cnd | if it's behaving like a touchscreen, then it should work with mtdev | 20:22 |
| cnd | can you run xinput --list --all and pastebin the results? | 20:22 |
| cr3 | cnd: I could try mtdev-test in a vt, one sec | 20:22 |
| cnd | ok | 20:22 |
| cr3 | cnd: ok, stuff is happening when I run mtdev-test, but I don't see the usual ABS_MT_* at the top of running mtdev-test | 20:23 |
| cr3 | cnd: as for running xinput --list --all, that returns: unable to find device --all | 20:24 |
| cnd | then my guess would be that your tablet isn't being recognized as a multitouch device | 20:24 |
| cnd | if it only has pen input, no touch input, then it's just single touch input anyway, right? | 20:24 |
| cr3 | cnd: it could be single touch input, I was hoping it might be more to touch real multitouch devices | 20:25 |
| cnd | xinput --list --long is what we need | 20:25 |
| cr3 | cnd: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187794/ | 20:27 |
| cnd | cr3: yeah, no multitouch :( | 20:28 |
| === dandrader|afk is now known as dandrader | ||
| cnd | it's just a singletouch pen tablet | 20:28 |
| cr3 | cnd: do you think that the bamboo tablet is essentially like a touchscreen? in other words, are touchscreens multitouch? | 20:28 |
| cnd | a touchscreen can be single-touch | 20:29 |
| cnd | so your tablet is like a singletouch touchscreen | 20:29 |
| cr3 | cnd: when a touchpad supports two finger scrolling, is that reall multi touch? | 20:31 |
| cr3 | s/reall/really/ | 20:31 |
| cnd | it depends | 20:31 |
| cnd | it might be multi-finger singletouch | 20:32 |
| cnd | where it reports only one location, but guesses the number of touches on the trackpad | 20:32 |
| cnd | or it may be full multitouch | 20:32 |
| cr3 | cnd: so, on the CheckingMTDevice wiki page, it says to use mtdev-test to test for multi touch. however, I ran it on a few laptops, some of which didn't even support ABS_MT_*, and it always outputs stuff when moving the touchpad mouse | 20:41 |
| cr3 | cnd: I'm quite sure these laptops are not all multi touch though, so perhaps I'm not looking for the right thing in the output | 20:42 |
| cnd | hmmm… that page is out of date... | 20:42 |
| cr3 | some laptops are from 2006, so not recent | 20:42 |
| cnd | xinput --list is the best way | 20:42 |
| cnd | you're right that it will always output stuff | 20:42 |
| cnd | you have to check that mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* | 20:43 |
| cnd | but that's easier said than done | 20:43 |
| cr3 | cnd: so, if I understand correctly, when mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* that means that the touchpad can report two or more absolute coordinates in order to be considered multitouch, right? | 20:48 |
| cnd | correct | 20:48 |
| cr3 | cnd: is there a possibility that mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* but physically pressing two fingers on the touchpad doesn't work? in other words, do you think that physical validation of multitouch support will uncover potential problems? | 20:49 |
| cnd | not likely | 20:49 |
| cnd | devices need linux drivers to have multitouch suppor | 20:49 |
| cnd | it doesn't magically occur :) | 20:50 |
| cnd | so anything that does say it is multitouch almost assuredly is | 20:50 |
| cr3 | cnd: that's great because the test can be automated! however, do you know of a way to script such a test considering that ctrl-alt-f1 to vt in order to run mtdev-test is going to be really difficult to script :) | 20:51 |
| cnd | well, mtdev-test isn't the best way to go at this point | 20:51 |
| cr3 | cnd: I mean, is there a way to determine whether a touchpad outputs ABS_MT_* other than running mtdev-test in a vt :) | 20:51 |
| cnd | it would be better to use the output of xinput --list --long | 20:51 |
| cnd | and look for XITouchClass | 20:52 |
| cr3 | cnd: ok, let me compare a couple systems, one moment.. | 20:52 |
| cnd | k | 20:52 |
| cr3 | cnd: seems to be quite apparent: Class originated from: 0. Type: XITouchClass | 20:57 |
| cr3 | cnd: could multitouch screens be tested the same way? ie, will they also appear with XITouchClass for a separate input device in the output of xinput --list --long? | 20:59 |
| cnd | yes, they will have XItouchClass too | 21:02 |
| cr3 | cnd: interesting, a colleague just sent me the output of their xinput --list --long from a laptop that apparently has a multitouch touchscreen: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187841/ | 21:05 |
| cr3 | cnd: from what I can see, it doesn't look like the touchscreen supports multitouch though, right? | 21:05 |
| cnd | so serial wacom tablets are a bit of a sore point | 21:06 |
| cnd | they can be multitouch | 21:06 |
| cnd | but you have to force them into a specific mode using a user-space tool | 21:06 |
| cnd | I don't really know how to do it myself | 21:06 |
| cnd | but I know bdmurray has been able to get it to work | 21:06 |
| cnd | but in its default startup state it behaves like a single touch touchscreen | 21:07 |
| cr3 | cnd: hm, I remember seeing something about wacom serial on the HardwareSupport page under the MultiTouch wiki pages: " Need to use setserial to configure. " | 21:07 |
| cnd | yeah | 21:07 |
| cr3 | cnd: ok, for enablement purposes, I still want to fail the device because user experience is bad and I want the vender to know about it :) | 21:07 |
| cnd | I would say so | 21:08 |
| cnd | if it doesn't boot up into multitouch mode, then it's a poor experience | 21:09 |
| cr3 | cnd: apparently, multitouch worked out of the box in quantal. if you'd like, I could ask him to join this channel if you might have a few questions | 21:09 |
| cnd | I don't have any questions? | 21:09 |
| cnd | I personally don't care about wacom | 21:09 |
| cnd | well, old wacom serial I mean | 21:09 |
| cnd | they are only two touch | 21:10 |
| cnd | which doesn't get you much in ubuntu right now | 21:10 |
| cr3 | cnd: if a toushcreen is not reporting XITouchClass, as in the case of wacom serial, but it does actually support two finger touch, how would you suggest I test for that? | 21:16 |
| cnd | well, that's a practically impossible task | 21:16 |
| cnd | you can't do anything if the kernel says it's not supported | 21:16 |
| cr3 | cnd: if the kernel says it's not support, how can it work? | 21:18 |
| cr3 | supported even? | 21:18 |
| cnd | it can't? | 21:20 |
| cnd | I don't understand what you're asking | 21:20 |
| cr3 | cnd: in this output of xinput, the touchscreen apparently doesn't support multitouch (no XITouchClass) but my colleague says it supports multitouch: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187841/ | 21:24 |
| cnd | yes | 21:24 |
| cnd | there's no way for a script to know that | 21:24 |
| cr3 | cnd: to recap, a touchpad or a touchscreen that reports XITouchClass in the output of xinput will necessarily work, but the opposite is not necessarily true where these devices don't report XITouchClass then they might work, right? | 21:27 |
| cnd | you could say that, but most likely devices that don't have a touch class just aren't multitouch devices | 21:27 |
| cnd | like your tablet | 21:27 |
| cnd | it just isn't a multitouch device | 21:27 |
| cnd | most multitouch devices these days work out of the box | 21:28 |
| cr3 | cnd: if it's not a multitouch device but it behaves well enough according to criteria I'm not in control of, I might want to test physically | 21:30 |
| cr3 | cnd: could you recommend a way for me to detect something like: when user presses two fingers on the touchscreen, the test passes? | 21:31 |
| cnd | I don't understand | 21:31 |
| cr3 | cnd: for example, would it be possible to listen on the output of xinput test-xi2 for specific events? | 21:31 |
| cnd | if xinput says it's not multitouch, then it's not multitouch | 21:31 |
| cnd | it won't work | 21:31 |
| cnd | you can listen to the output of events from xinput test-xi2 | 21:32 |
| cnd | it will tell you when there are touch events | 21:32 |
| cnd | but you won't get any touch events from non-multitouch devices | 21:32 |
| cr3 | cnd: so how does the system simulate support for two finger touch for a wacom serial touchscreen? | 21:34 |
| cnd | it doesn't | 21:34 |
| cnd | there's no "simulation" of multitouch | 21:34 |
| cnd | if it's not multitouch, then it's not multitouch :) | 21:34 |
| cnd | or the driver doesn't support multitouch, which is basically the same | 21:35 |
| cnd | as far as any script can tell | 21:35 |
| cr3 | so, it doesn't seem to be possible to determine whether a device that is physically a multitouch actually works as a multitouch device: | 21:37 |
| cr3 | 1. if it's detected as a multitouch device, it'll just work | 21:37 |
| cr3 | 2. if it's not detected as a multitouch device, then who's to know it's physically a multitouch device | 21:37 |
| cr3 | cnd: does that sound about right? | 21:38 |
| cnd | exactly :) | 21:38 |
| cr3 | cnd: if I wanted to make double sure that multitouch was working, like wearing a belt and suspenders, I would first check for XITouchClass but I would then want to verify physically... | 21:51 |
| cr3 | cnd: if I listen to the output of events from xinput test-xi2, is there anything I should be paying attention to for multitouch events? | 21:51 |
| cnd | cr3: yes, look for XITouch{Begin,Update,End} events | 21:56 |
| cr3 | cnd: sweet, I think that will make everyone happy :) | 21:57 |
| cnd | good :) | 21:57 |
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