=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch === MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow === dandrader is now known as dandrader|afk === dandrader|afk is now known as dandrader === gustavold1 is now known as gustavold === dandrader is now known as dandrader|lunch === dandrader|lunch is now known as dandrader [19:37] has anyone used a wacom bamboo tablet as a multi touch device? is there anything special I need to do? [19:44] running mtdev-test /dev/input/event12 returns nothing after supported mt events :( [19:45] however, the hardware support page seems to indicate that wacom usb has been supported since 11.04: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Multitouch/HardwareSupport [20:04] not me [20:06] cr3: the bamboo touch should work out of the box as a touchpad [20:06] which means that X synaptics will grab the dev event node [20:07] so mtdev and any similar programs like evemu and evtest will not work unless you stop X or vt switch away === dandrader is now known as dandrader|afk [20:13] cnd: it should work as a touchscreen rather than a touchpad, right? ie, I shouldn't expect to do two finger scrolling, not that I know how to get it working with my finger anyways [20:13] cr3: you can make it behave like a touchscreen if you want [20:13] but by default it behaves like a touchpad [20:13] because it isn't a touchscreen [20:14] and the bamboo touch line is usually a bit too small to actually behave like a touchscreen [20:15] cnd: this is a bamboo tablet (mte-450) though, it behaved like a touchscreen when I plugged it in: http://www.tablet4u.co.uk/product/en/bamboo-tablet.html [20:15] cr3: when you say it behaved like a touchscreen, what exactly do you mean? [20:15] maybe I am misunderstanding [20:18] cnd: heh, and maybe I'm not expressing myself well because this is all new to me :) first, in system settings, it appears as a wacom graphics tablet. second, the tablet only responds to the stylus so I can't imagine how it could be used as a touchpad [20:19] cr3: in X terms, we use "direct" and "indirect" input devices [20:19] a direct input device, like a touchscreen, makes the cursor move to wherever you touch on the device [20:19] if you touch the top left corner, the cursor will move to the top left corner of the screen, no matter where it was previously [20:20] an indirect device will behave like a touchpad, where the cursor movement is controlled by relative motion of the input device [20:20] an indirect device is also a relative device, like a mouse [20:20] in fact, indirect is very similar to "relative", and direct is very similar to "absolute" positioning [20:21] I'm not exactly sure how your bamboo tablet would behave, I was thinking about my bamboo touch, which only has touch input (no pen) [20:21] I actually do expect your tablet to behave like a touchscreen, but we'd have to check to be sure [20:22] if it's behaving like a touchscreen, then it should work with mtdev [20:22] can you run xinput --list --all and pastebin the results? [20:22] cnd: I could try mtdev-test in a vt, one sec [20:22] ok [20:23] cnd: ok, stuff is happening when I run mtdev-test, but I don't see the usual ABS_MT_* at the top of running mtdev-test [20:24] cnd: as for running xinput --list --all, that returns: unable to find device --all [20:24] then my guess would be that your tablet isn't being recognized as a multitouch device [20:24] if it only has pen input, no touch input, then it's just single touch input anyway, right? [20:25] cnd: it could be single touch input, I was hoping it might be more to touch real multitouch devices [20:25] xinput --list --long is what we need [20:27] cnd: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187794/ [20:28] cr3: yeah, no multitouch :( === dandrader|afk is now known as dandrader [20:28] it's just a singletouch pen tablet [20:28] cnd: do you think that the bamboo tablet is essentially like a touchscreen? in other words, are touchscreens multitouch? [20:29] a touchscreen can be single-touch [20:29] so your tablet is like a singletouch touchscreen [20:31] cnd: when a touchpad supports two finger scrolling, is that reall multi touch? [20:31] s/reall/really/ [20:31] it depends [20:32] it might be multi-finger singletouch [20:32] where it reports only one location, but guesses the number of touches on the trackpad [20:32] or it may be full multitouch [20:41] cnd: so, on the CheckingMTDevice wiki page, it says to use mtdev-test to test for multi touch. however, I ran it on a few laptops, some of which didn't even support ABS_MT_*, and it always outputs stuff when moving the touchpad mouse [20:42] cnd: I'm quite sure these laptops are not all multi touch though, so perhaps I'm not looking for the right thing in the output [20:42] hmmm… that page is out of date... [20:42] some laptops are from 2006, so not recent [20:42] xinput --list is the best way [20:42] you're right that it will always output stuff [20:43] you have to check that mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* [20:43] but that's easier said than done [20:48] cnd: so, if I understand correctly, when mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* that means that the touchpad can report two or more absolute coordinates in order to be considered multitouch, right? [20:48] correct [20:49] cnd: is there a possibility that mtdev outputs ABS_MT_* but physically pressing two fingers on the touchpad doesn't work? in other words, do you think that physical validation of multitouch support will uncover potential problems? [20:49] not likely [20:49] devices need linux drivers to have multitouch suppor [20:50] it doesn't magically occur :) [20:50] so anything that does say it is multitouch almost assuredly is [20:51] cnd: that's great because the test can be automated! however, do you know of a way to script such a test considering that ctrl-alt-f1 to vt in order to run mtdev-test is going to be really difficult to script :) [20:51] well, mtdev-test isn't the best way to go at this point [20:51] cnd: I mean, is there a way to determine whether a touchpad outputs ABS_MT_* other than running mtdev-test in a vt :) [20:51] it would be better to use the output of xinput --list --long [20:52] and look for XITouchClass [20:52] cnd: ok, let me compare a couple systems, one moment.. [20:52] k [20:57] cnd: seems to be quite apparent: Class originated from: 0. Type: XITouchClass [20:59] cnd: could multitouch screens be tested the same way? ie, will they also appear with XITouchClass for a separate input device in the output of xinput --list --long? [21:02] yes, they will have XItouchClass too [21:05] cnd: interesting, a colleague just sent me the output of their xinput --list --long from a laptop that apparently has a multitouch touchscreen: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187841/ [21:05] cnd: from what I can see, it doesn't look like the touchscreen supports multitouch though, right? [21:06] so serial wacom tablets are a bit of a sore point [21:06] they can be multitouch [21:06] but you have to force them into a specific mode using a user-space tool [21:06] I don't really know how to do it myself [21:06] but I know bdmurray has been able to get it to work [21:07] but in its default startup state it behaves like a single touch touchscreen [21:07] cnd: hm, I remember seeing something about wacom serial on the HardwareSupport page under the MultiTouch wiki pages: " Need to use setserial to configure. " [21:07] yeah [21:07] cnd: ok, for enablement purposes, I still want to fail the device because user experience is bad and I want the vender to know about it :) [21:08] I would say so [21:09] if it doesn't boot up into multitouch mode, then it's a poor experience [21:09] cnd: apparently, multitouch worked out of the box in quantal. if you'd like, I could ask him to join this channel if you might have a few questions [21:09] I don't have any questions? [21:09] I personally don't care about wacom [21:09] well, old wacom serial I mean [21:10] they are only two touch [21:10] which doesn't get you much in ubuntu right now [21:16] cnd: if a toushcreen is not reporting XITouchClass, as in the case of wacom serial, but it does actually support two finger touch, how would you suggest I test for that? [21:16] well, that's a practically impossible task [21:16] you can't do anything if the kernel says it's not supported [21:18] cnd: if the kernel says it's not support, how can it work? [21:18] supported even? [21:20] it can't? [21:20] I don't understand what you're asking [21:24] cnd: in this output of xinput, the touchscreen apparently doesn't support multitouch (no XITouchClass) but my colleague says it supports multitouch: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1187841/ [21:24] yes [21:24] there's no way for a script to know that [21:27] cnd: to recap, a touchpad or a touchscreen that reports XITouchClass in the output of xinput will necessarily work, but the opposite is not necessarily true where these devices don't report XITouchClass then they might work, right? [21:27] you could say that, but most likely devices that don't have a touch class just aren't multitouch devices [21:27] like your tablet [21:27] it just isn't a multitouch device [21:28] most multitouch devices these days work out of the box [21:30] cnd: if it's not a multitouch device but it behaves well enough according to criteria I'm not in control of, I might want to test physically [21:31] cnd: could you recommend a way for me to detect something like: when user presses two fingers on the touchscreen, the test passes? [21:31] I don't understand [21:31] cnd: for example, would it be possible to listen on the output of xinput test-xi2 for specific events? [21:31] if xinput says it's not multitouch, then it's not multitouch [21:31] it won't work [21:32] you can listen to the output of events from xinput test-xi2 [21:32] it will tell you when there are touch events [21:32] but you won't get any touch events from non-multitouch devices [21:34] cnd: so how does the system simulate support for two finger touch for a wacom serial touchscreen? [21:34] it doesn't [21:34] there's no "simulation" of multitouch [21:34] if it's not multitouch, then it's not multitouch :) [21:35] or the driver doesn't support multitouch, which is basically the same [21:35] as far as any script can tell [21:37] so, it doesn't seem to be possible to determine whether a device that is physically a multitouch actually works as a multitouch device: [21:37] 1. if it's detected as a multitouch device, it'll just work [21:37] 2. if it's not detected as a multitouch device, then who's to know it's physically a multitouch device [21:38] cnd: does that sound about right? [21:38] exactly :) [21:51] cnd: if I wanted to make double sure that multitouch was working, like wearing a belt and suspenders, I would first check for XITouchClass but I would then want to verify physically... [21:51] cnd: if I listen to the output of events from xinput test-xi2, is there anything I should be paying attention to for multitouch events? [21:56] cr3: yes, look for XITouch{Begin,Update,End} events [21:57] cnd: sweet, I think that will make everyone happy :) [21:57] good :)