[03:01] <ailo> len-dt: knome: My motive for not keeping nautilus is simply the maintenance problem
[03:01] <ailo> It's not just a gui program
[03:02] <ailo> And right now, it seems like we don't have 100% check on what is running and what not
[03:02] <ailo> As it seems Thunar is running in the background
[03:03] <ailo> I'd tell Scott, but he's not here
[03:05] <ailo> It would just make things simpler inheriting working Xubuntu settings
[03:06] <ailo> Besides, people can install nautilus if they want
[03:17] <len-dt> ailo, do you feel we are having problems with nautilus?
[03:18] <len-dt> I personally have had more problems with thunar
[03:18] <len-dt> Crashes and freezes.
[03:18] <ailo> len-dt: I personally don't use XFCE at all
[03:19] <ailo> What I personally do is not what I'm talking about
[03:19] <len-dt> I understand, but I do use US and have had problems with thunar
[03:20] <len-dt> Most of the time it works ok, but nautilus seems to most 100%
[03:20] <len-dt> s/most/more
[03:20] <ailo> Again, it's not just a gui program
[03:21] <len-dt> When we first switched to nautilus, I also wondered why, but have had a lot less problems with it
[03:21] <ailo> Did you try finding anyu bug reports on that?
[03:21] <len-dt> OK, it is more than a GUI
[03:22] <len-dt> what problem is it giving us?
[03:22] <ailo> I haven't been using the thunar gui much. When I'm on US, I usually only use the terminal
[03:22] <ailo> And I like to use the gnome-terminal over the XFCE default
[03:23] <ailo> len-dt: Remember when opening documents on the desktop were opening thunar instead of nautilus?
[03:23] <len-dt> Are these things we should change for next cycle?
[03:23] <ailo> len-dt: And Thunar is still running, isn't it?
[03:23] <ailo> I mean folders, not documents
[03:24] <len-dt> not any more. Have you tried the 12.10 ISO? desktop icons open nautilus
[03:24] <ailo> len-dt: I know, not anymore. But, Thunar, is it still running?
[03:24] <len-dt> yes
[03:24] <len-dt> but there has to be something acting as a desktop
[03:25] <ailo> len-dt: So, in my view, we don't have 100% check on what Thunar is doing, and what Nautilus doing. The choice for having Nautilus is only for the gui interface, nothing else
[03:25] <len-dt> nautilus is not running all the time
[03:25] <ailo> len-dt: And since there is more to both programs, I think if we should keep nautilus, it would make sense to have 100% understanding of what they do
[03:26] <len-dt> Ya. The dual device icons is not thunar or nautilus
[03:26] <len-dt> it is there in xubuntu and vanilla
[03:26] <ailo> Right now it feels a bit hacky
[03:27] <len-dt> it doesn't seem hacky from a user POV
[03:27] <len-dt> its like, do I open a URL with firefox or orpera///
[03:27] <ailo> No, that's completely different
[03:27] <ailo> That's my point
[03:28] <ailo> My point is the maintenance problem of customizing XFCE to be more like Gnome, and the extra work that goes into that, just to get a couple of gui features
[03:28] <ailo> I'd rather let the user worry about the desktop choice
[03:29] <ailo> It's just extra work
[03:29] <len-dt> Ok... I think I am not getting what you are saying. The extra work? add a package and change one config?
[03:30] <ailo> Well, Thunar is still running, so it's not been replaced
[03:31] <len-dt> Thunar does one job, nautilus does another
[03:31] <ailo> Sure about that?
[03:31] <len-dt> because thunar is there, the user has the choice to swicth from nautilus.
[03:32] <len-dt> I'm not seeing a problem at this point.
[03:33] <ailo> It would probably make more sense using Gnome3, but replacing the panel with the XFCE panel, since that is what this whole change was about
[03:34] <ailo> And perhaps when nautilus finally changes to FILE, everyone, including Ubuntu will make a fork to keep the ol Nautilus intact
[03:34] <len-dt> I don't know if I would use the xfce pannel then
[03:36] <len-dt> I personally don't have a huge problem with "file". Just learning something new. everything is still there
[03:36] <len-dt> it is styled after chromium
[03:36] <ailo> Not only File. It's a design choice for other apps too
[03:37] <ailo> Within the GNOME desktop
[03:40] <ailo> And it's just the menu that lends it's design idea from Chrome
[03:41] <len-dt> Lets use FVWM
[03:42] <len-dt> Ok, I don't think there will be too many takers
[03:43] <len-dt> ailo, it was not my choice to include nautilus. I do like it better than thunar, though thunar could be made to have the same features it is missing from nautilus. (I think xubuntu does actually)
[03:44] <len-dt> And it may work better if it is not sharing files with nautilus (drag and drop from one to the other)
[03:49] <len-dt> ailo, I get the idea you want to redo our desktop environment from scratch pretty much. That could be a lot of work and with only two of us doing it would mean other more important things got left behind. (workflow specific things)
[03:54] <ailo> len-dt: I have not said anything about wanting to create a desktop from scratch
[03:55] <ailo> I'm saying the opposite. Stick to one desktop
[03:55] <ailo> Some things I say include some irony
[03:55] <len-dt> Ok.
[03:57] <len-dt> We already, with the apps we include pull in lots of libs... I think KDE is the only one we don't almost.
[03:58] <ailo> Since Ubuntu Studio is about multimedia creation, I don't think we should be focusing on what file manager we use
[03:58] <len-dt> But even setting that aside. from a user POV we want the best experience. That was why we changed from the xfce task manager
[03:58] <ailo> Even if that of course is a part of the workflow
[04:00] <len-dt> File management is a part of just about any workflow. 
[04:00] <ailo> Thunar is a file manager
[04:01] <len-dt> Does it do the job just as well as nautilus? for that matter is nautilus the best one?
[04:02] <len-dt> Someone(s) felt that nautilus did a better job... started faster etc.
[04:03] <len-dt> The plus side of getting rid of nautilus would be some size.
[04:04] <len-dt> I would assume thunar is being actively developed and maybe some of the things people disliked about it have been taken care of.
[04:05] <len-dt> ailo, I will install gvfs-backends and a search utility and use thunar for a week.
[04:11] <ailo> len-dt: My point is not only about Thunar, but about the general strategy for maintaining the Ubuntu Studio desktop. Since there are so few of us, it might make sense to do as little customization as possible. And I'm saying this to create the discussion.
[04:11] <ailo> And hope that certain parties will not just keep arguing for something, because they were a part of making a choice about it
[04:12] <len-dt> I think it will have to be one app/customization at a time.
[04:12] <ailo> The file manager is a very integrated part of the desktop. Nautilus brings in a lot of libs
[04:13] <len-dt> certain parties not being around right now... Like I said I am using US as my only DE right now, so If I switch to thunar. I can speak for it.
[04:14] <len-dt> I don't think that will change much this cycle. Next though.
[04:15] <len-dt> What would you like to do about system manager?
[04:15] <len-dt> Should we go back to the xfce-task-manger?
[04:16] <ailo> len-dt: Right now I'm more inclined to use XFCE default applications, and let the user decide on customization. I'm saying this more for creating the discussion than to make decisions about it
[04:16] <ailo> So, no hurry on my account
[04:17] <ailo> To make changes, I mean
[04:18] <len-dt> Ok, I think that is a good argument. The maintaining part. There are only two of us
[04:19] <ailo> I'm not really doing much maintaining right now. More of development, not counting -lowlatency, which it seems I will be maintaining
[04:19] <len-dt> I will be going back to work soon and so my free time and energy will drop.
[04:19] <len-dt> ailo, there seem to be only two doing much at all
[04:20] <len-dt> There are people doing and giving suggestions, for which I am grateful, but there is not much else.
[04:21] <ailo> Well, there are more, if you count people who help us
[04:21] <ailo> friendly devs in the neighborhood
[04:22] <len-dt> what helps xubuntu helps us for sure
[04:23] <len-dt> Those who keep up the media apps is a big help too.
[09:45] <smartboyhw> Er ailo, len-dt: The build is ready YEAH!
[10:02] <ailo-w> smartboyhw: kernel build?
[10:02] <smartboyhw> NO I mean 12.10 Beta 1
[10:02] <smartboyhw> Marked ready so we don't need to test it ailo-w
[10:02] <ailo-w> len-dt tested it yesterday
[10:03] <smartboyhw> Yep so it is marked ready
[10:04] <smartboyhw> We are the only one:)(
[10:28] <smartboyhw> ailo-w: Do you know where astraljava has been?
[10:35] <ailo> smartboyhw: I don't keep track of peoples wereabouts. If people have the time and will, they'll be around. Otherwise not
[10:40] <smartboyhw> Well I haven't seen him for 2 WEEKS really weird
[11:00] <knome> smartboyhw, he's busy.
[11:07] <smartboyhw> Just been wondering..Haven't seen him for a while and wated to say hi
[13:00] <len-dt> ailo, I wonder how much "load" a midi port puts on an IRQ
[13:00] <smartboyhw> Yo len-dt
[13:00] <len-dt> smartboyhw, good morn
[13:00] <smartboyhw> Good evening...9 {M here
[13:00] <smartboyhw> *PM
[13:01] <len-dt> :) Thas why I said it...
[13:02] <len-dt> ailo, what I mean is I wonder if heavy midi use affects audio on the same card
[13:08] <ailo-w> len-dt: midi is pretty thin in data amount. I've been developing a sysex controller for my synth module in puredata, making it possible to automate the synth-module with the live app I'm coding
[13:08] <ailo-w> I could use it to create some heavy load
[13:09] <ailo-w> Actually, it's not so hard to do
[13:09] <ailo-w> Just do a midi dump
[13:09] <ailo-w> Of something
[13:09] <len-dt> That is my thought too. I was just looking at my IRQ priority and seeing:
[13:09] <len-dt>  766  FF     85 125   - [irq/20-snd_ens1]
[13:09] <len-dt>   796  FF     85 125   - [irq/21-snd_ice1]
[13:10] <len-dt> both my MIDI and my audio are the same priority
[13:11] <ailo-w> I wonder what the maximum data rate is
[13:11] <len-dt> I haven't had any problems even at low latency... but I don't do much midi
[13:11] <len-dt> 31k
[13:11] <ailo-w> 31K/? ?
[13:11] <smartboyhw> LOL
[13:12] <len-dt> or am I off by 10?
[13:12] <ailo-w> Actually, what is k?
[13:12] <smartboyhw> One thousand?
[13:12] <smartboyhw> 1k = 1000
[13:13] <ailo-w> smartboyhw: I know, it usually means that. But, in this instance it seems strange
[13:13] <smartboyhw> Yes it does
[13:13] <len-dt> the bit rate is 31k (31250) but the computer only services it at 3k the byte rate
[13:14] <ailo-w> len-dt: So, 31k bits in which amount of time?
[13:14] <ailo-w> second?
[13:15] <len-dt> In the case of midi it may be half that because each midi event may have two or the bytes which would be loaded to the uart at once
[13:15] <len-dt> per second
[13:15] <len-dt> That is why the maxfreq for hpet is suggested at about 3k
[13:16] <len-dt> status bytes are single, but a note on is two byes
[13:17] <ailo-w> sysex is a bit larger than that
[13:17] <len-dt> I think the uart can take up to 16 bytes at a time in its on chip buffer
[13:17] <len-dt> sysex would be done 8 bytes at a time
[13:18] <ailo-w> 8 bits, you mean?
[13:18] <len-dt> bytes
[13:19] <len-dt> The driver would load 8 bytes from the memory buffer to the uart buffer then the uart chip would do the bit stream with no help from the system
[13:20] <ailo-w> Ok, so the device may be able to do 8 bytes a time, but the sysex packets are in bytes = 8 bits at a time
[13:21] <len-dt> Assuming the uart started idle, the driver would put 16 bytes in. the if the "low water mark" was 8 the uart would give an interupt at 8
[13:22] <len-dt> Yes but I am thinking of how often does the cpu need to deal with the uart.
[13:22] <smartboyhw> Good mail holstein:)
[13:22] <ailo-w> sysex messages are usually up to 16 bytes
[13:22] <ailo-w> or more
[13:22] <holstein> smartboyhw: o/
[13:22] <smartboyhw> holstein: \o Good reply on the testing mail
[13:23] <holstein> its just a misunderstanding
[13:23] <smartboyhw> Yes it is
[13:23] <holstein> like there would be a 24 hour period where one of us could make sure the kernel regression baked into the past kernel he is talking about could be fixed
[13:24] <smartboyhw> OK
[13:24] <holstein> that user is just a little frustrated, and rightly so
[13:24] <holstein> ubuntustudio is not something i would recommend for a laptop anyway
[13:24] <smartboyhw> I did do a late call
[13:24] <len-dt> ailo, yup, so a sysex is actually less system stress than two notes close together but not at the same time.
[13:25] <ailo-w> laptops are fine, just that most of them are crap
[13:25] <holstein> smartboyhw: its public information
[13:25] <smartboyhw> Sorry I am using a laptop to do all the testing and chatting and everything
[13:25] <holstein> smartboyhw: thats fine, but the main generic kernel would be better for battery lifle likely
[13:26] <holstein> life*
[13:26] <smartboyhw> holstein: My notebook doesn't run on a battery, it's just plugged that's all
[13:26] <ailo-w> We still need to test -lowlatency for power usage. I'll be doing that shortly
[13:26] <ailo-w> Would be nice with some hard numbers on that
[13:26] <smartboyhw> ailo-w: YEAH
[13:26] <holstein> i bet its not as bad as the RT one was
[13:26] <holstein> thats probably what the user on the mailing list is talking about
[13:26] <smartboyhw> holstein: +1
[13:27] <holstein> 10.04 with the 9.10 kernel 
[13:27] <ailo-w> holstein: maybe, maybe not. Not sure what does it. The tickrate is quite high on -lowlatency
[13:27] <smartboyhw> Well 12.10 here
[13:27] <ailo-w> holstein: The -rt kernel in the debian repo has a tickless timer
[13:27] <holstein> ailo-w: the lowlatency should be better for sure
[13:28] <holstein> still, shoulc be worse than the generic.. but maybe not
[13:28] <smartboyhw> YEAH
[13:28] <holstein> we'll know soon \o/
[13:28] <smartboyhw> \o/
[13:28] <ailo-w> holstein: I'm not that sure. The difference between -rt and -lowlatency is in the PREEMPT model. And I'm not sure it's that different really
[13:28] <smartboyhw> I want -lowlatency to be better than -generic
[13:28] <holstein> ailo-w: cool.. we'll find out
[13:29] <holstein> smartboyhw: it doesnt need to be better at power management
[13:29] <smartboyhw> Well I want it to be better, not just at power
[13:29] <holstein> smartboyhw: power managerment is not the point of it
[13:30] <smartboyhw> I know, I want it to be better at ALL things
[13:30] <holstein> its better for getting lower latency... better for RT
[13:30] <holstein> i just want the generic kernel to work
[13:30] <holstein> we wont have to maintain it
[13:31] <smartboyhw> Yep, if -generic had rt we don't need the -lowlatency kernel
[13:31] <ailo-w> len-dt: I still don't get why sysex would be less stressful, if the messages are 20 bytes and more. What makes sysex messages be sent in 8 bytes a time, and not notes?
[13:31] <ailo-w> smartboyhw: -lowlatency is -generic
[13:31] <ailo-w> smartboyhw: Just reconfigured
[13:32] <smartboyhw> ailo-w: Yes
[13:32] <smartboyhw> So? I wish one day there is NO need for a -lowlatency
[13:34] <smartboyhw> Yay scott-work
[13:35] <smartboyhw> scott-work: I like your blog:)
[13:35] <scott-work> good morning smartboyhw. thank you
[13:35] <smartboyhw> :)
[13:36] <smartboyhw> Well so the builds are marked ready:)
[13:36] <smartboyhw> And strangely scott-work: I heard Xubuntu is not going to HAVE a beta 1
[13:37] <smartboyhw> Due to test fails
[13:37] <holstein> they are an active team... im sure they will be allowed some time
[13:38] <smartboyhw> scott-work or anybody: Write an article on http://fullcirclemagazine.org/ about ubuntu studio LOL :)
[13:42] <smartboyhw> ailo quit because he's going home....
[13:48] <smartboyhw> scott-work: Update your wiki a bit:)
[13:49] <smartboyhw> len-dt: You don't have a Ubuntu wiki page do you?
[13:53] <len-dt> nope... 
[13:54] <smartboyhw> Create one and get ubuntu membership:)
[13:54] <len-dt> huh?
[13:54] <smartboyhw> Well, write a wiki page, let people write testimonials, then apply for Ubuntu Membership:)
[13:54] <len-dt> membership (in anything) is not all it's cracked up to be
[13:55] <smartboyhw> I know, just create one so that people can know you, take me for instance
[13:56] <len-dt> Nobody will "know" me from online anything.
[13:56] <smartboyhw> Er what? Even scott has one:( I have one too:)
[13:56] <len-dt> That was not my point.
[13:57] <smartboyhw> !?
[13:59] <len-dt> What someone writes in a blog or in an about is what they want the world to see or what they see themselves as. These are both inaccurate views.
[13:59] <smartboyhw> len-dt: You can't have people writing YOUR wiki do you?
[13:59] <micahg> smartboyhw: the more tests the better on ISOs, 1 test is minimalist
[13:59] <smartboyhw> micahg: YEah alright
[14:11] <len-dt> ailo, I think the direction the MIDI is flowing would make a difference. The cpu would get more interupts for incoming midi with sysexe stuff because every time the cpu empties the uart and a new byte comes the cpu gets hit. With outgoing it can fill the uart up to 16 bytes at a time.
[14:21] <ailo> len-dt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001875.html
[14:21] <ailo> scott-work: ^
[14:22] <smartboyhw> oH ok
[14:40] <smartboyhw> scott-work: Do you think we should add a upgrade testcase for Ubuntu Studio? There isn't one
[14:42] <len-dt> smartboyhw, I don't have time for yet more tests at this point.
[14:42] <smartboyhw> Yep I know, that's sad
[14:43] <len-dt> What mailing list was the message from stilllearnin@thettpost.com on?
[14:44] <smartboyhw> ubuntustudio-user
[14:44] <len-dt> Ah, that would be why I missed it. There is a trick to getting monitor setups to remain from one boot to the next.
[14:45] <smartboyhw> Oh OK
[14:55] <scott-work> smartboyhw: i think most people's answer to an "upgrade test" would be yes. however, we need to think what we are providing
[14:55] <scott-work> smartboyhw: we aren't providing just another desktop, these, ideally, would be machine (or tools) used for creation
[14:55] <smartboyhw> Uh huh
[14:55] <scott-work> i know that i don't like to update my machine more than i have to, i believe holstein feels equally (possibly more) strongly
[14:56] <scott-work> so my feeling is that LTS -> LTS is a good upgrade path (mostly *)
[14:56] <scott-work> but i do not think we should dedicate ourselves to a "cycle -> cycle" upgrade testing
[14:57] <scott-work> if others think that it _is_ important and want to commit to the testing, then i say go for it
[14:57] <scott-work> but for me, it isn't as much value-add as other tasks we could perform
[14:57] <smartboyhw> OK
[14:57] <scott-work> len-dt: yes, i still have multi-monitor trouble and i've tried tens of different ways to make it permanent
[15:10] <len-dt> scott-work, X and xfce are just too smart... 
[15:11] <smartboyhw> len-dt: Why? LOL
[15:11] <len-dt> I was able to have boot to boot permanence _if_ the monitors were always plugged in and turned on prior to booting.
[15:12] <len-dt> As soon as that was not the case I had to start all over.
[15:14] <len-dt> Both xfce and gnome have this problem. They need to have two defaults. One for one display and another for two (or more displays). It is not trivial coding I don't think. I don't know how big the user base is for more than one display... but it is obvious to me there are no (or not many) developers who do.
[15:21] <smartboyhw> scott-work: You updated the release notes yet?:)
[15:23] <smartboyhw> scott-work: I think skaet is asking you to do it too:)
[15:27] <smartboyhw> Bye all
[15:28] <ailo> gn smartboyhw 
[18:02] <len-dt> scott-work, my days of free time are rapidly coming to an end. I don't know if I will have the time to go through the -settings thing.
[18:07] <len-dt> knome, there doesn't seem to be a place to test xubuntu
[18:26] <scott-work> can anyone help me with filling out the release notes for beta1 ?
[18:26] <scott-work> len-dt: i understand about your free time