| ibeardslee | morning | 19:49 |
|---|---|---|
| ojwb | morning | 19:55 |
| chilts | morning | 20:36 |
| ajmitch | morning | 20:37 |
| ibeardslee | such a pity that Precise still has so many errors and crashes | 20:52 |
| ajmitch | part of the problem is that some of these crashes weren't terribly visible in previous versions, but the new error reporting tool pops up when something silently dies | 20:54 |
| ajmitch | so it's a mix of perception & of things just being buggy | 20:55 |
| ibeardslee | perception of broken things shouldn't exist in an LTS release .. esp at the x.xx.1 release | 20:55 |
| lifeless | well | 20:56 |
| lifeless | its not that simple really. | 20:56 |
| lifeless | Consider - a background thread in a GUI crashes. | 20:56 |
| ibeardslee | the non-LTS versions should make that more visible so they get elimintated | 20:56 |
| lifeless | Some folk don't notice at all. | 20:56 |
| hads | I imagine you need the reports to find out what's broken. | 20:56 |
| lifeless | Some folk notice, because e.g. their ipod doesn't sync properly. | 20:56 |
| lifeless | We can't just gather the stats without peoples consent. | 20:56 |
| lifeless | And we don't have good enough heuristics that a global consent from a user will be good enough to avoid all chance of snarfing up passwords etc. | 20:57 |
| lifeless | So we have a choice, of not knowing that there is a problem, or of our users also knowing that there is a problem. | 20:57 |
| ibeardslee | sure .. but for most people .. Precise crashes more than previous versions | 20:58 |
| lifeless | *Because* its an LTS, its important we know whether its still got a high failure rate or not, otherwise we can't tell if allocating engineering effort to fixing it makes sense. | 20:58 |
| ibeardslee | sorry .. but for most people .. "Precise crashes more than previous versions" | 20:58 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: See, *maybe* it does, *maybe it doesn't*. What we know about previous versions is worse than anecdotal. | 20:58 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: what is clear is that we can now go out and fix precise. | 20:59 |
| lifeless | (and we are) | 20:59 |
| ajmitch | there was a spirited discussion about whether to turn off whoopsie in 12.04.1. The data just isn't there for previous releases of ubuntu | 20:59 |
| hads | From my perspective, until I saw the explanation that crash reporting was turned on, I thought that precise was just crashy. | 20:59 |
| lifeless | ajmitch: btw speaking of error reporting. | 20:59 |
| lifeless | ajmitch: did you see the php oops client link ? | 21:00 |
| ajmitch | lifeless: yeah I did thanks | 21:00 |
| ibeardslee | I agree, but I'm here defending precise against people telling me it crashes more than previous versions | 21:00 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: I certainly understand *that*. | 21:00 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: Windows had exactly the same psychological issue when it introduced error reporting | 21:00 |
| ajmitch | ibeardslee: previous releases had apport turned off at release, so this is where perception of crashiness comes in, but the data just wasn't there to compare against | 21:01 |
| ajmitch | there | 21:01 |
| ibeardslee | and because of that, I have others telling me they don't want to upgrade to Precise because it keeps crashing for others | 21:01 |
| ajmitch | there have been developers allocated for stable release maintenance & this is what they use to schedule what to work on | 21:01 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: so, thats fine - the primary goal isn't to get everyone on precise, its to finally fix this horribly crashing platform we have. | 21:02 |
| lifeless | Precise is probably the least crashy we've been. | 21:02 |
| hads | Cool | 21:03 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: I don't /care/ if O users avoid precise like the plague. | 21:03 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: if we don't fix the root cause, the *justified* reputation of Linux as a crashy horrible desktop OS will remain. | 21:04 |
| ibeardslee | Agreed .. but unless people are aware that this LTS is all about fixing existing underlying issues, Precise *looks like* the buggiest release yet. | 21:08 |
| lifeless | yeah | 21:09 |
| lifeless | its a rub, thats for sure | 21:09 |
| mwhudson | i'm not sure what the alternative course of action is | 21:09 |
| mwhudson | i guess whoopsie could have stayed off until quantal | 21:09 |
| mwhudson | but then that's another 6 months of waiting? | 21:10 |
| ajmitch | but then you don't get info on what needed fixing for 12.04.1 | 21:10 |
| ibeardslee | No no, leave it on quantal .. it's not the LTS release. | 21:10 |
| ibeardslee | err /me reads and comprehends better | 21:10 |
| ojwb | you should have sent the code back in time and turned it on for maverick | 21:11 |
| ajmitch | I think that errors.ubuntu.com has been a very useful tool | 21:11 |
| lifeless | We have some assumptions. | 21:13 |
| lifeless | We assume that LTS users are statistically different to current-release users are different to in-development users. | 21:13 |
| lifeless | We assume that we get different issues from these groups; likely with significant overlap, but specifically not subsets. | 21:14 |
| ojwb | that's likely true, though if you'd started in the post-LTS release you'd have shaken out at least some of the issues LTS users hit too | 21:15 |
| lifeless | indeed! | 21:15 |
| lifeless | There are things being done to reduce the impact | 21:16 |
| lifeless | IIRC: | 21:16 |
| lifeless | - the UI is being polished | 21:16 |
| ojwb | my hindsight is 20-20 | 21:16 |
| lifeless | - a cap on reports per user is being put in place to avoid dossing folk | 21:16 |
| lifeless | - there are plans (likely to not be ported to precise) for wider opt-in that might permit no-interaction crash report handling, specficially for known crashes. | 21:17 |
| ojwb | having used linux as a desktop OS heavily for close to 20 years now, I can't say I agree that it's a crashy horrible desktop OS | 21:17 |
| ibeardslee | I agree | 21:18 |
| ojwb | sound has been a rough edge for a long time, on and off | 21:18 |
| lifeless | I use it, and love it, as my desktop. However, compared to Mac OS X and Windows 7, we suffer more failed processes and drivers, per user per day. | 21:18 |
| * ajmitch won't mention those bloody nvidia drivers | 21:19 | |
| lifeless | Personal anecdata - wifi dies for me every day or two, sometimes multiple times per day; graphic lockups once a week or so if I use unity. | 21:19 |
| ibeardslee | until precise, I have to admit that I hardly ever noticed things going wrong. | 21:19 |
| lifeless | Thats intel video, not nvidia. | 21:19 |
| ojwb | well, unity was very crashy, at least in the initial release | 21:19 |
| lifeless | suspend resume are still fragile | 21:19 |
| ibeardslee | or at least if I did, it was an insignificant event | 21:19 |
| ojwb | but I think that's not "linux desktop" really | 21:19 |
| lifeless | firefox and chromium processes dying are routine | 21:19 |
| lifeless | libreoffice going up its own backend is common | 21:20 |
| mwhudson | iwlwifi causes the majority of my pain in precise i think | 21:20 |
| lifeless | so common, they put specific crash handling code for recovery of documents... | 21:20 |
| mwhudson | firefox was very very crashy for a while, but that turned out to be firebug | 21:20 |
| ajmitch | mwhudson: I can believe that, I still have to disable 802.11n to get usable wifi | 21:20 |
| lifeless | gvfs gets stuck on windows interop so often its not funny | 21:20 |
| ojwb | the driver for the wifi chipset in this laptop is very poor, but it's not in the kernel which is probably an indicator of the quality of it | 21:21 |
| ojwb | doesn't ms office do document recovery too? | 21:21 |
| lifeless | point is, put a linux desktop beside a windows 7 or mac for a month, do the same things on them both, and its extremely unlikely that the user observable crash rate on the linux machine will be higher than that of either other OS | 21:22 |
| lifeless | Its important to celebrate how far we have come, but its also important not to be blind to the issues we do have. | 21:22 |
| mwhudson | lifeless: i think you mean 'lower' there? | 21:22 |
| lifeless | mwhudson: BWAH. yes. Thanks/ | 21:23 |
| ajmitch | talking of crash reports, there goes one now :) | 21:59 |
| ibeardslee | heh | 22:04 |
| ibeardslee | tried to ugprade my home PC to Quantal on the weekend | 22:05 |
| ibeardslee | won't do it, despite the video card supporting earlier 3D efforts it isn't supported by the lastest version of unity | 22:05 |
| * ajmitch did a fresh quantal install on the new home pc without too many issues | 22:05 | |
| ajmitch | that's interesting, what card? | 22:06 |
| ibeardslee | an onboard nvidia geforce 6somethingmumble | 22:06 |
| ajmitch | 6000 series? | 22:06 |
| ajmitch | nvidia has some weird numbering | 22:07 |
| ibeardslee | GeForce 6150 | 22:07 |
| ajmitch | that should still be supported by the latest nvidia drivers | 22:07 |
| ajmitch | after that it'll only be supported on their legacy branch | 22:07 |
| ibeardslee | won't do the 3D for Precise either | 22:08 |
| ajmitch | odd | 22:09 |
| ibeardslee | http://www.asus.co.nz/Motherboards/AMD_AM2/M2NPVVM/#specifications | 22:10 |
| ibeardslee | that's the motherboard (and video) | 22:10 |
| ajmitch | could be that unity is expecting certain functionality that the card won't support | 22:11 |
| ajmitch | run /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test -p | 22:12 |
| * ibeardslee makes a note for this evening | 22:14 | |
| ajmitch | you can't ssh into your home machine? :) | 22:15 |
| ibeardslee | home PC is off .. this irc session is on my home server | 22:15 |
| ajmitch | ah right | 22:15 |
| ibeardslee | was getting an old shuttle up and running yesterday as well .. ahh edgy, the memories | 22:16 |
| hads | wakeonlan $DESKTOP :) | 22:16 |
| ibeardslee | that has been configured, but the network is still plugged into the shuttle | 22:16 |
| ibeardslee | been considering the power useage of that old PC, compared to my existing home server .. that could be a decent upgrade path | 22:18 |
| Atamira | morning | 22:26 |
| Atamira | waiting for the rain to hit | 22:27 |
| ibeardslee | it certainly hit here over the weekend | 22:27 |
| Atamira | it hits and stops and hits again here | 22:28 |
| Atamira | tho im sure we dont have all of it | 22:28 |
| Atamira | i know one of the posthops in hamilton had their roof cave in due to hail | 22:28 |
| * ojwb wonders if that's a typo for postops or postshops | 22:32 | |
| ibeardslee | you mean you haven't seen the post hop? | 22:33 |
| ojwb | no, the bottle shop had sold out of it | 22:34 |
| ibeardslee | it's a variation of the lindy hop | 22:34 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: not going to go the ARM route? | 22:40 |
| ibeardslee | lifeless: for the home server? got a vagueplan to be able to run a couple of vms for things like calibre, koha etc | 22:41 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: yeah, there is kvm for ARM nowadays | 22:41 |
| === _thumper_ is now known as thumper | ||
| Atamira | ;p; | 22:49 |
| Atamira | oops | 22:49 |
| Atamira | im tired.. | 22:49 |
| Atamira | post shop | 22:49 |
| ibeardslee | and now based on previous discussions starts letting all crashes get reported | 22:52 |
| ibeardslee | lifeless: that does change things a wee bit then | 23:03 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: google has stuff on it | 23:03 |
| ibeardslee | although the advantage with the x64 server is just the one arch being cached by apt-cacher-ng | 23:06 |
| lifeless | have you seen the baserock ? | 23:07 |
| ibeardslee | no I haven't | 23:07 |
| lifeless | http://www.baserock.com/ | 23:08 |
| lifeless | 8 x quad-core | 23:08 |
| ibeardslee | sounds overkill for a home server? | 23:08 |
| lifeless | probably uses a total of 50W at peak. | 23:09 |
| lifeless | ibeardslee: no such thing as overkill :) | 23:09 |
| ibeardslee | there is so when $$ are in short supply | 23:09 |
| ibeardslee | how could I get 4 x 3TB disks in those? | 23:10 |
| lifeless | you'd need a separate container for them, but each board has SATA on it | 23:11 |
| lifeless | anyhow, its just one of the servers out there doing this | 23:11 |
| ibeardslee | the HP 40L was something I'd considered | 23:12 |
| lifeless | theres a bunch of Ubuntu folk loving on the HP microservers | 23:12 |
| ibeardslee | but there is much to consider in terms of what I run at home and how live it is 24x7 | 23:13 |
| lifeless | ... which the 40L appears to be | 23:13 |
| ibeardslee | yes | 23:13 |
| lifeless | the HP website has terrible google juice. | 23:13 |
| lifeless | first page of google for hp 40L has no links to the HP site :( | 23:13 |
| lifeless | but apparently the HP40L is a Ryobi 4 V Lithium-Ion Screwdriver | 23:14 |
| ibeardslee | well there you go | 23:15 |
| ibeardslee | try the HP N40L | 23:15 |
| lifeless | yeah | 23:16 |
| lifeless | just found it on their site | 23:16 |
| lifeless | thanks! | 23:16 |
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