[19:49] morning [19:55] morning [20:36] morning [20:37] morning [20:52] such a pity that Precise still has so many errors and crashes [20:54] part of the problem is that some of these crashes weren't terribly visible in previous versions, but the new error reporting tool pops up when something silently dies [20:55] so it's a mix of perception & of things just being buggy [20:55] perception of broken things shouldn't exist in an LTS release .. esp at the x.xx.1 release [20:56] well [20:56] its not that simple really. [20:56] Consider - a background thread in a GUI crashes. [20:56] the non-LTS versions should make that more visible so they get elimintated [20:56] Some folk don't notice at all. [20:56] I imagine you need the reports to find out what's broken. [20:56] Some folk notice, because e.g. their ipod doesn't sync properly. [20:56] We can't just gather the stats without peoples consent. [20:57] And we don't have good enough heuristics that a global consent from a user will be good enough to avoid all chance of snarfing up passwords etc. [20:57] So we have a choice, of not knowing that there is a problem, or of our users also knowing that there is a problem. [20:58] sure .. but for most people .. Precise crashes more than previous versions [20:58] *Because* its an LTS, its important we know whether its still got a high failure rate or not, otherwise we can't tell if allocating engineering effort to fixing it makes sense. [20:58] sorry .. but for most people .. "Precise crashes more than previous versions" [20:58] ibeardslee: See, *maybe* it does, *maybe it doesn't*. What we know about previous versions is worse than anecdotal. [20:59] ibeardslee: what is clear is that we can now go out and fix precise. [20:59] (and we are) [20:59] there was a spirited discussion about whether to turn off whoopsie in 12.04.1. The data just isn't there for previous releases of ubuntu [20:59] From my perspective, until I saw the explanation that crash reporting was turned on, I thought that precise was just crashy. [20:59] ajmitch: btw speaking of error reporting. [21:00] ajmitch: did you see the php oops client link ? [21:00] lifeless: yeah I did thanks [21:00] I agree, but I'm here defending precise against people telling me it crashes more than previous versions [21:00] ibeardslee: I certainly understand *that*. [21:00] ibeardslee: Windows had exactly the same psychological issue when it introduced error reporting [21:01] ibeardslee: previous releases had apport turned off at release, so this is where perception of crashiness comes in, but the data just wasn't there to compare against [21:01] there [21:01] and because of that, I have others telling me they don't want to upgrade to Precise because it keeps crashing for others [21:01] there have been developers allocated for stable release maintenance & this is what they use to schedule what to work on [21:02] ibeardslee: so, thats fine - the primary goal isn't to get everyone on precise, its to finally fix this horribly crashing platform we have. [21:02] Precise is probably the least crashy we've been. [21:03] Cool [21:03] ibeardslee: I don't /care/ if O users avoid precise like the plague. [21:04] ibeardslee: if we don't fix the root cause, the *justified* reputation of Linux as a crashy horrible desktop OS will remain. [21:08] Agreed .. but unless people are aware that this LTS is all about fixing existing underlying issues, Precise *looks like* the buggiest release yet. [21:09] yeah [21:09] its a rub, thats for sure [21:09] i'm not sure what the alternative course of action is [21:09] i guess whoopsie could have stayed off until quantal [21:10] but then that's another 6 months of waiting? [21:10] but then you don't get info on what needed fixing for 12.04.1 [21:10] No no, leave it on quantal .. it's not the LTS release. [21:10] err /me reads and comprehends better [21:11] you should have sent the code back in time and turned it on for maverick [21:11] I think that errors.ubuntu.com has been a very useful tool [21:13] We have some assumptions. [21:13] We assume that LTS users are statistically different to current-release users are different to in-development users. [21:14] We assume that we get different issues from these groups; likely with significant overlap, but specifically not subsets. [21:15] that's likely true, though if you'd started in the post-LTS release you'd have shaken out at least some of the issues LTS users hit too [21:15] indeed! [21:16] There are things being done to reduce the impact [21:16] IIRC: [21:16] - the UI is being polished [21:16] my hindsight is 20-20 [21:16] - a cap on reports per user is being put in place to avoid dossing folk [21:17] - there are plans (likely to not be ported to precise) for wider opt-in that might permit no-interaction crash report handling, specficially for known crashes. [21:17] having used linux as a desktop OS heavily for close to 20 years now, I can't say I agree that it's a crashy horrible desktop OS [21:18] I agree [21:18] sound has been a rough edge for a long time, on and off [21:18] I use it, and love it, as my desktop. However, compared to Mac OS X and Windows 7, we suffer more failed processes and drivers, per user per day. [21:19] * ajmitch won't mention those bloody nvidia drivers [21:19] Personal anecdata - wifi dies for me every day or two, sometimes multiple times per day; graphic lockups once a week or so if I use unity. [21:19] until precise, I have to admit that I hardly ever noticed things going wrong. [21:19] Thats intel video, not nvidia. [21:19] well, unity was very crashy, at least in the initial release [21:19] suspend resume are still fragile [21:19] or at least if I did, it was an insignificant event [21:19] but I think that's not "linux desktop" really [21:19] firefox and chromium processes dying are routine [21:20] libreoffice going up its own backend is common [21:20] iwlwifi causes the majority of my pain in precise i think [21:20] so common, they put specific crash handling code for recovery of documents... [21:20] firefox was very very crashy for a while, but that turned out to be firebug [21:20] mwhudson: I can believe that, I still have to disable 802.11n to get usable wifi [21:20] gvfs gets stuck on windows interop so often its not funny [21:21] the driver for the wifi chipset in this laptop is very poor, but it's not in the kernel which is probably an indicator of the quality of it [21:21] doesn't ms office do document recovery too? [21:22] point is, put a linux desktop beside a windows 7 or mac for a month, do the same things on them both, and its extremely unlikely that the user observable crash rate on the linux machine will be higher than that of either other OS [21:22] Its important to celebrate how far we have come, but its also important not to be blind to the issues we do have. [21:22] lifeless: i think you mean 'lower' there? [21:23] mwhudson: BWAH. yes. Thanks/ [21:59] talking of crash reports, there goes one now :) [22:04] heh [22:05] tried to ugprade my home PC to Quantal on the weekend [22:05] won't do it, despite the video card supporting earlier 3D efforts it isn't supported by the lastest version of unity [22:05] * ajmitch did a fresh quantal install on the new home pc without too many issues [22:06] that's interesting, what card? [22:06] an onboard nvidia geforce 6somethingmumble [22:06] 6000 series? [22:07] nvidia has some weird numbering [22:07] GeForce 6150 [22:07] that should still be supported by the latest nvidia drivers [22:07] after that it'll only be supported on their legacy branch [22:08] won't do the 3D for Precise either [22:09] odd [22:10] http://www.asus.co.nz/Motherboards/AMD_AM2/M2NPVVM/#specifications [22:10] that's the motherboard (and video) [22:11] could be that unity is expecting certain functionality that the card won't support [22:12] run /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test -p [22:14] * ibeardslee makes a note for this evening [22:15] you can't ssh into your home machine? :) [22:15] home PC is off .. this irc session is on my home server [22:15] ah right [22:16] was getting an old shuttle up and running yesterday as well .. ahh edgy, the memories [22:16] wakeonlan $DESKTOP :) [22:16] that has been configured, but the network is still plugged into the shuttle [22:18] been considering the power useage of that old PC, compared to my existing home server .. that could be a decent upgrade path [22:26] morning [22:27] waiting for the rain to hit [22:27] it certainly hit here over the weekend [22:28] it hits and stops and hits again here [22:28] tho im sure we dont have all of it [22:28] i know one of the posthops in hamilton had their roof cave in due to hail [22:32] * ojwb wonders if that's a typo for postops or postshops [22:33] you mean you haven't seen the post hop? [22:34] no, the bottle shop had sold out of it [22:34] it's a variation of the lindy hop [22:40] ibeardslee: not going to go the ARM route? [22:41] lifeless: for the home server? got a vagueplan to be able to run a couple of vms for things like calibre, koha etc [22:41] ibeardslee: yeah, there is kvm for ARM nowadays === _thumper_ is now known as thumper [22:49] ;p; [22:49] oops [22:49] im tired.. [22:49] post shop [22:52] and now based on previous discussions starts letting all crashes get reported [23:03] lifeless: that does change things a wee bit then [23:03] ibeardslee: google has stuff on it [23:06] although the advantage with the x64 server is just the one arch being cached by apt-cacher-ng [23:07] have you seen the baserock ? [23:07] no I haven't [23:08] http://www.baserock.com/ [23:08] 8 x quad-core [23:08] sounds overkill for a home server? [23:09] probably uses a total of 50W at peak. [23:09] ibeardslee: no such thing as overkill :) [23:09] there is so when $$ are in short supply [23:10] how could I get 4 x 3TB disks in those? [23:11] you'd need a separate container for them, but each board has SATA on it [23:11] anyhow, its just one of the servers out there doing this [23:12] the HP 40L was something I'd considered [23:12] theres a bunch of Ubuntu folk loving on the HP microservers [23:13] but there is much to consider in terms of what I run at home and how live it is 24x7 [23:13] ... which the 40L appears to be [23:13] yes [23:13] the HP website has terrible google juice. [23:13] first page of google for hp 40L has no links to the HP site :( [23:14] but apparently the HP40L is a Ryobi 4 V Lithium-Ion Screwdriver [23:15] well there you go [23:15] try the HP N40L [23:16] yeah [23:16] just found it on their site [23:16] thanks!