[03:42] <smartboyhw> len-dt: What are you working on now?
[03:43] <len-dt> I have been doing some recording.
[03:44] <smartboyhw> I have been building an ISO
[03:44] <len-dt> Sounds fun.
[03:45] <smartboyhw> Yeah the Ubuntu GNOME remix
[03:46] <len-dt> I'm thinking to leave that one alone till at least first release... maybe first LTS to look at it.
[03:46] <smartboyhw> HAHAHA
[03:47] <len-dt> I only have so much time to spend playing with distro building and priorities are studio then xubuntu.
[03:47] <smartboyhw> len-dt: My priority is studio then ubuntu then xubuntu
[03:49] <len-dt> My first thought was to give holstein's line "ubuntustudio _is_ ubuntu" :) But I know what you mean.
[03:49] <smartboyhw> len-dt: Yes.:)
[03:50] <smartboyhw> Yes "ubuntustudio _is_  Ubuntu with multimedia creation apps:)
[03:50] <smartboyhw> And xfce
[03:51] <smartboyhw> And xubuntu base
[03:51] <len-dt> Vanilla is Ubuntu with unity on top
[03:51] <smartboyhw> len-dt: LOL
[03:52] <len-dt> The DE is actually a very small part of what Ubuntu is.
[03:52] <smartboyhw> Yes. 
[03:52] <len-dt> But very visible.
[03:52] <smartboyhw> LOL
[04:03] <micahg> smartboyhw: the DE is part of the Ubuntu desktop product
[04:05] <len-dt> micahg, I have sent an email to Colin about our metas
[04:05] <micahg> len-dt: ok, I'll take a look at the diff when he uploads it so I can do stuff like this in thefuture
[04:05] <micahg> I just seem to be missing something
[04:07] <len-dt> It does seem odd that it doesn't just work. The graphics meta changed just fine.
[04:08] <smartboyhw> Am I wrong but then isn't there something known as Ubuntu Core which has no DE micahg?
[04:08] <micahg> smartboyhw: I didn't say anything about Ubuntu core, there are many difference projects under the umbrella of the Ubuntu project
[04:09] <micahg> err...products under the umbrella
[04:09] <len-dt> I don't think core is meant to be used on it's own though smartboyhw 
[04:09] <len-dt> :)
[04:09] <smartboyhw> i don't know!!??!?
[04:10] <smartboyhw> Anyway what I know is that Ubuntu is the Ubuntu kernel with Unity that's all
[04:11] <len-dt> Without the repos with all the extra software, Ubuntu would not be where it is.
[04:11] <len-dt> It is all a part of it
[04:11] <micahg> no, that's the Ubuntu desktop product which a lot of people think of as Ubuntu
[04:14] <smartboyhw> Now I'm confused
[04:14] <micahg> Ubuntu is a project, this project has archives, lots of products are hosted in this archive
[04:14] <len-dt> smartboyhw, you might think of it like Lego. Someone could build a Lego truck. Is that truck Lego? or is it the parts the truck is made of?
[04:15] <smartboyhw> Lego??? I don't play lego, len-dt:(
[04:15]  * len-dt sometimes plays with Lego.
[04:15] <len-dt> But you do know what it is. ?
[04:16] <smartboyhw> Yes
[04:16] <smartboyhw> len-dt: How old are you to play Lego???
[04:16] <len-dt> I have a 6 year old. I get to play with his.
[04:16] <smartboyhw> Ah alright
[04:20] <len-dt> No worries, I was not trying to make you any younger than you are.
[04:21] <smartboyhw> LOL
[08:38] <ailo> Anyone experienced quantal pulseaudio crashing now and then?
[08:39] <ailo> I need to test on other HW, cause it might HW related for me. PA crashes every now and then, and reinitializes volumes. My apps get stuck and need tp get
[08:39] <ailo> ..be restarted
[08:41] <ailo> Well, actually. Jack is fine all the time, only PA is having problems
[08:49] <ailo> smartboyhw: Ubuntu without the desktop is in the package ubuntu-minimal
[09:03] <falktx> hey
[09:04] <falktx> I'm wondering again - why is debian multimedia packages built with debug mode on?
[09:07] <ailo> falktx: I would ask Debian Multimedia Team, if the packages aren't built differently on Ubuntu
[09:07] <falktx> afaik they are not
[09:07] <falktx> I just saw some recent syncs
[09:08] <ailo> Interesting note. Wonder why they do that
[09:11] <falktx> is anyone here on their mailing list?
[09:14] <ailo> falktx: I am. I could ask them
[09:14] <ailo> falktx: I'm actually going to join that team later on. You ever thought about doing that?
[09:15] <falktx> I did once, but then I saw the limitations
[09:15] <ailo> falktx: limititations?
[09:15] <falktx> and all the hard work just for simple tasks
[09:16] <falktx> ailo: yes, if a piece of code doens't have a very clear license, they refuse to package it
[09:16] <falktx> I remember the audacious case
[09:16] <falktx> a plugin code was removed from the source tarball because it didn't have any header-comments
[09:17] <falktx> I though that was just crazy
[09:17] <ailo> To me that just sounds like making sure packages adhere to the Debian policy
[09:17] <falktx> yeah, that is the thing - I don't agree with that policy
[09:18] <falktx> linuxsampler exception rule still kills me
[09:18] <falktx> Ubuntu used to have java in the repos, it displayed the license when installing
[09:18] <falktx> why can't that be done too?
[09:19] <falktx> there are a lot of things that I don't agree with Debian, I guess that's the main reason why I haven't joined the team
[09:19] <ailo> You can either join Debian, and help improve it, or start your own Debian
[09:20] <ailo> You can't change something, if you are looking in from the outside
[09:20] <falktx> well, I started my separate project, as you know
[09:21] <ailo> falktx: Are you sure linux-sampler could not be packaged for Debian? There is a non-free repo after all
[09:21] <ailo> falktx: You mean, your PPA's
[09:21] <ailo> Yea, they are filling a purpose in deed
[09:22] <falktx> ailo: considering there is worst licenses then LS, I'm sure it could
[09:22] <falktx> *than
[09:22] <ailo> I've seen a bug report about packaging it, and no one was claiming it couldn't be done
[09:23] <ailo> On the report, that is
[09:23] <falktx> I think debian is just losing people's attention, not sure...
[09:24] <falktx> I know alession works in d-multimedia, but is there anyone else?
[09:24] <ailo> falktx: Anyone else from where? there are people there. And I don't think anyone is loosing attention to the foundation for anything Debian based
[09:25] <ailo> falktx: there's no reason why you can't do things on many levels you know
[09:25] <falktx> well, it's just my impression
[09:25] <ailo> There are reasons for the restrictions that Debian has. If they would change them, many would leave Debian
[09:26] <ailo> And you can build upon it, just like Ubuntu does, and Mint does off on Ubuntu
[09:26] <ailo> Like you do with your PPA's. Similar to Mint
[09:26] <ailo> So, I don't really see the problem
[09:27] <falktx> I see your point
[09:27] <ailo> You can't have a library of software representing free and open source software, if it's not being free and open source.
[09:27] <ailo> And surely, there are lot's of grey zones
[09:27] <ailo> Debian vanilla is 100% free. Even the kernel.
[09:28] <ailo> But they have a non-free repo
[09:28] <falktx> well, I think there's some firmware things that are not truly free
[09:28] <falktx> but that's being picky... :)
[09:28] <falktx> still, back to my main though - why do they have to build things in debug mode
[09:28] <ailo> falktx: Even in Debian vanilla? They took out all the firmware that wasn't and put them in different packages
[09:29] <falktx> ailo: could you ask on their ML ?
[09:29] <ailo> falktx: I'll do that
[09:29] <falktx> ailo: I mean the kernel, I read that at phoronix once. whatever that is a trust-worthy source... heh...
[09:30] <ailo> falktx: I don't know the specifics, but to my knowledge, all the non-free parts of the kernel were repackaged, and put into the non-free repo, so you can add them after installation
[09:30] <ailo> wifi drivers, etc
[09:30] <ailo> It's a pain, cause the installation freezes if you have a non-free wifi
[09:31] <falktx> ok
[09:31] <ailo> Ubuntu being less restrictive, just keeps it all in the kernel as is
[09:31] <falktx> I see, I'm just too used to Ubuntu I guess
[09:31] <falktx> it makes things too easy :)
[09:32] <ailo> Debian is in some way not a distro. More of a library
[09:34] <ailo> falktx: Oh, let me ask you where you saw about the debug being built in. I want to know what I'm asking for
[09:36] <ailo> bbs
[09:37] <ailo> Actually, let me check some packages sources :)
[09:37] <falktx> ailo: it's all in the new lv2 libs
[09:37] <falktx> lv2-dev, serd, sord, sratom, lilv, suil
[09:37] <falktx> also qtractor, patchage
[09:38] <falktx> I noticed it in the recent packages
[09:39] <falktx> also muse I think
[09:39] <falktx> better to give an example
[09:40] <falktx> here we go
[09:40] <falktx> ailo: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/qtractor.git;a=summary
[09:40] <falktx> ^that is the qtractor debian-git page
[09:41] <falktx> look at debian/rules file:
[09:41] <falktx> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-multimedia/qtractor.git;a=blob;f=debian/rules;hb=HEAD
[09:41] <falktx> dh_auto_configure -- --enable-debug ...
[09:41] <falktx> that is just awful for qtractor
[09:42] <falktx> it gets into an unusable state (prints a lot of debug stuff even when processing, as it's being built for debug purposes)
[09:42] <falktx> splitting the debug symbols into a separate package won't do anything, as debug is already activated
[09:43] <falktx> and this is just 1 small example
[09:43] <falktx> if all qtractor's libs are built in debug (lv2 libs, libsamplerate, libsndfile, etc), then it gets even worse
[09:44] <falktx> ailo: do you think this information is enough for a post?
[09:44] <falktx> you can post the direct irc chat if you want
[10:00] <ailo> falktx: Thanks. More than enough. I'll start with that, and see what they say
[10:01] <smartboyhw> Oops what did I miss
[10:06] <ailo> smartboyhw: You can always check the irc logs
[10:06] <ailo> at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[10:07] <smartboyhw> Bye no
[10:08] <smartboyhw> *now
[10:12] <ailo> falktx: I was just googling at first, just to see if there was already something discussed about this. So, this might answer half the question: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=684035
[10:12] <ubottu> Debian bug 684035 in jackd1 "jackd1: Please provide debug symbols" [Normal,Open]
[10:12] <falktx> wtf??
[10:12] <falktx> jack itself with debug
[10:12] <falktx> .... what???
[10:13] <falktx> ailo: do they not think about how sluggish apps are by default in debug?
[10:14] <falktx> ailo: anyway, please let me know when you post something. and thanks in advance
[10:15] <ailo> falktx: I guess it would be best if debug was always in a separate package, right?
[10:15] <falktx> I'll try to speak with Rui from qtractor when I see them (about this)
[10:15] <falktx> ailo: separate package - yes. using debug mode in all packages and split symbols - no
[10:16] <falktx> splitting debug symbols do nothing
[10:16] <falktx> the app was not optiized for runtime, it will be slow
[10:16] <falktx> *optimized
[10:17] <falktx> audio denormals will most likely happen with this scenario, increasing cpu even more
[10:17] <falktx> I see the point on using debug mode for testing releases, but not for final ones
[10:22] <ailo> yea. Would seem like the best procedure would still be keeping separate debug packages, no matter which release, so you only need to maintain one version of something
[10:22] <ailo> I've never done a package like that, so I don't know what extra work goes into it
[10:23] <falktx> I guess it comes down to what is most important - app optimization and less cpu usage, or better debug/crash info
[10:23] <falktx> considering that most users never report any kind of bugs, well...
[11:31] <ailo> falktx: Message sent. I'll let you know when and if i get an answer
[11:32] <falktx> ailo: ok, thanks!
[12:17] <smartboyhw> Oh yo I saw the mail ailo:)
[12:29] <holstein> wonder what that was about
[12:29] <smartboyhw> holstein: Look at the channel backlog:)
[12:29] <holstein> "im trying to boot into a new operating system without rebootin"
[12:29] <holstein> smartboyhw: oh, im aware of what was said.. i just dont understand.. i assume im missing something else
[12:30] <smartboyhw> OK
[13:15] <len-dt> ailo, does ubuntu-minimal come as a ISO? Is that the new pulse version? (PA-2.1)
[13:17] <len-dt> holstein, I'm not really sure either. Maybe he wants to boot into a virtual box of some sort.
[13:18] <smartboyhw> Hmm
[13:18] <smartboyhw> len-dt: But he's trying to install it on a SSD
[13:19] <len-dt> I don't think that makes that much difference as to where it is. Just the same as running wine, The directories that make the fake win part could be anywhere
[13:31] <len-dt> smartboyhw, is there a page that describes the various ISOs?
[13:32] <smartboyhw> len-dt: What do you mean?
[13:33] <len-dt> smartboyhw, I go to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ and there is a list of flavours. Is there a page that has a description for all these flavours? or do I have to find each one separately
[13:34] <len-dt> There are a lot of them that are not even ISOs
[13:34] <smartboyhw> len-dt: I don't know. Tell me what do ya want
[13:35] <len-dt> I want a ubuntu ISO that has no GUI
[13:35] <smartboyhw> len-dt: Try Ubuntu Core
[13:36] <len-dt> It is not an ISO
[13:36] <smartboyhw> Why do you need one without gui?
[13:36] <len-dt> I want to try something on a minimal machine
[13:36] <smartboyhw> Hmm
[13:37] <smartboyhw> IDK then.
[13:38] <len-dt> No problem. I was going to use server and not install any services :-) but I would really like something not server oriented.
[13:38] <smartboyhw> :)
[13:39] <falktx> len-dt: you want the net-boot I assume?
[13:40] <falktx> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/quantal/ ?
[13:40] <len-dt> falktx, I'll look
[13:43] <len-dt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD looks like what I want.
[13:43] <falktx> len-dt: yep, that's the same
[13:44] <falktx> minimal = netboot
[13:44] <len-dt> Ya, that was what I thought I got there from the netboot wiki.
[13:44] <len-dt> But the minimal page provides info the way I want to do things.
[13:46] <len-dt> falktx, I want to make an CLI audio machine and also try netjack on an older machine.
[14:52] <ailo> len-dt: If you do an expert install, you can choose to not install any of the metas (or tasks). What you get then is ubuntu-minimal.
[14:53] <ailo> That which is below all the derivatives
[14:54] <ailo> len-dt: You can do that with different installers. Alternate, net-install
[14:54] <len-dt> ailo, I have a mini.iso (40M) that has an alt installer
[14:54] <len-dt> ya from net-install
[14:58] <ailo> Or maybe just a normal install does that too, with those
[14:58] <ailo> I don't remember. I always do expert install
[14:59] <len-dt> No matter, I have something to play with. I'll start with that.
[15:00] <len-dt> ailo, what version of PA did you have problems with?
[15:01] <ailo> len-dt: hmm, actually not 2.1. 2.0-6
[15:01] <len-dt> Might be an idea to try 2.1
[15:02] <ailo> I'm on Debian Sid at the moment. It's not updating much right now, which I think has to do with Wheezy being released soon
[15:02] <ailo> I should do some tests on Quantal
[15:03] <len-dt> When next I boot quantal I will exercise PA as hard as I can.
[15:03] <ailo> len-dt: Just put something playing for a long period. Like Totem
[15:04] <ailo> It can take hours
[15:04] <len-dt> Ya. 2.1 is available from https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive
[15:04] <ailo> If it happens on Quantal, I will try to see what happens
[15:30] <holstein> len-dt: yeah... still, that would be "easy" to just point the virtualization software to the downloaded iso
[15:31] <smartboyhw> holstein: +1
[15:31] <holstein> i wouldnt think someone wanting to do that would need to ask how
[15:31]  * holstein shrugs
[15:31] <len-dt> holstein, that would be my guess too.
[15:31] <smartboyhw> How on earth can you install without reboot? That is a step after installation using the live dvd
[15:32] <len-dt> smartboyhw, on a virtual run the reboot is only in the virtual box not the surrounding OS
[15:32] <smartboyhw> len-dt: I know
[15:33] <len-dt> I think part of the problem is that the user was not explaining what they wanted to do very well.
[15:33] <smartboyhw> But then it IS a step, and I don't think Ubuntu Studio is really not suitable in a VM
[15:33] <len-dt> I tend to be the same... My brain thinks everyone already knows what I  am talking about.
[15:34] <holstein> len-dt: yeah, maybe a language barrier
[15:34] <smartboyhw> I think he just wants to install it without having a reboot after installation
[15:36] <len-dt> Some of that may be possible... no new kernel for example. But it leads to odd bugs. I have found that even when a SW update does not ask for reboot, it often helps.
[15:36] <smartboyhw> :)
[15:37] <ailo> You can build a new OS on a different partition, but I don't know about installing from ISO, without using the installer.
[15:38] <ailo> Maybe it's possible to switch OS's without rebooting somehow, but I've never heard of it
[15:39] <ailo> I'd assume you need to be running the same kernel, and somehow switch the filesystem on the fly
[15:40] <ailo> Restart pretty much everything
[15:40] <ailo> Which is basically rebooting
[15:40] <len-dt> Ya, but someone doing that should not be having to ask how...
[15:40] <smartboyhw> ailo: +1
[15:42] <ailo> len-dt: At least not on our channel. But, as you said, I'm not sure we understood the question