[01:56] <destructifier> Came here to vent about your shitty software fucking up my laptop. I installed your shit thinking I would give it a try and soon figured out that I don't like having all my applications completely hidden. I litterally searched around in your useless menu system for 45 minutes looking for specific application only to come up empty handed.
[01:58] <destructifier> Tutorials on the web explaining how to uninstall and switch back to gnome were completely useless. I'm guessing you guys had too many people jumping ship so you made it impossible to switch. YOU CANNOT SWITCH FROM THE LOGIN SCREEN. The option is simply not there.
[01:58] <destructifier> FUCKYOU AND YOUR SHITTY SOFTWARE
[01:59] <destructifier> TRIED UNINSTALLING YOUR SHIT AND IT COMPLETELY HOSED MY SYSTEM.
[02:14] <Daekdroom> I see so many things that guy did wrong in order to reach this point
[02:40] <ESphynx> Hey guys... Is it going to be possible to bring the dock to the RIGHT in Quantal? Please?
[02:40] <ESphynx> Simple reason why Right is that most people (probably including lefties) handle their mouse with their right hand, and to quickly access the dock you go far out to the end of the screen. Now obviously your wrist is more flexible rotating towards the right (and you are stuck with your keyboard on the left anyways).
[02:40] <ESphynx>  It'd also be really nice if by default when you click on the Launch button you could see the terminal, like, 'right there',  out of appreciation for the fact that Linux is traditionally a geek OS.
[02:46] <Daekdroom> You can always leave a terminal fixed in the 'dock'.
[02:47] <ESphynx> Daekdroom: you ca, but I'm talking about the very first Ubuntu impression.
[02:47] <ESphynx> can*
[02:47] <Daekdroom> I have the impression that Ubuntu does not want to give a first impression of a geek OS.
[02:47] <ESphynx> I had an extremely frustrating 2 minutes of searching for the terminal on my first try of Quantal.
[02:48] <ESphynx> but that is not good.
[02:48] <ESphynx> The non-geek user won't even notice the terminal there.
[02:48] <Daekdroom> How did it take you 2 minutes? Did you not see you can type "terminal"?
[02:48] <Daekdroom> (If you didn't see you can type it, then yeah, it's a problem)
[02:48] <ESphynx> no I expected an icon somewhere easy to find in that menu
[02:48] <ESphynx> and I did not.
[02:48] <ESphynx> I did not want to type, I wanted to click.
[02:49] <ESphynx> if I wanted to type, I would have just stayed in the virtual tty.
[02:49] <ESphynx> previous Ubuntu versions had a terminal icon right there... RedHat as a very obvious terminal icon
[02:50] <ESphynx> It's completely nice that Ubuntu wants to be user-friendly and an OS my grandma can use, but it's not good if power users don't find themselves at home anymore.
[02:51] <Daekdroom> I think it's fairly power-user friendly.
[02:51] <Daekdroom> I can do <Super> gnome-terminal <enter>
[02:51] <ESphynx> I personally hate the whole direction of Unity... but I'm hoping it could be made slightly better by these simple improvements.
[02:51] <ESphynx> that is not
[02:51] <ESphynx> friendly at all
[02:52] <Daekdroom> It's keyboard-only.
[02:52] <ESphynx> like, at all.
[02:52] <ESphynx> I know I can do term[enter]
[02:52] <ESphynx> which is already much better
[02:52] <ESphynx> but still.
[02:52] <ESphynx> I just want to do 2 clickst
[02:52] <ESphynx> to start a terminal
[02:52] <ESphynx> click, click. boom I'm in a terminal. that's how any Linux should be imo.
[02:53] <ESphynx> the whole Idea of categorization and recently used program I hate also... to actually find the terminal I have to go through that
[02:53] <ESphynx> and the terminal might be really far away, and I have to start thinking 'hmm, where would the terminal be?'
[02:53] <ESphynx> start/accesories/terminal ... is still reasonable
[02:54] <veebers> ESphynx: Once you've opened the terminal once you can lock it to the launcher so it's only 1 click :)
[02:54] <ESphynx> veebers: yes... but again it's that first impression .
[02:54] <veebers> ESphynx: also Ctrl-Alt t should open a terminal
[02:54] <ESphynx> I had a very bitter first impression.
[02:55] <ESphynx> yes... but there is no way to know that if you're a new power user on Ubuntu
[02:55] <ESphynx> I just wish to avoid the frustration of new power users trying out Quantal for the first time
[02:55] <Daekdroom> ESphynx, I think it's very unlikely for someone to be having their first impression and wanting to find the terminal.
[02:55] <ESphynx> Daekdroom: a terminal is the very first thing I want to see in a new OS.
[02:56] <veebers> ESphynx: Sure understood. but, by at least my own under standing of 'power user', a power user will find this out quickly and use it in the future
[02:56] <ESphynx> i'm trying out an OS. welcome screen, ok, where's my terminal?
[02:56] <Daekdroom> It's the first time I see someone complain about the terminal being too difficult to find at first..
[02:56] <ESphynx> well I raged in here once before! :P
[02:56] <ESphynx> guess you weren't around P
[02:56] <ESphynx> :P
[02:57] <veebers> ESphynx: there are also alot of people that would be turned off if the first thing they saw was a terminal
[02:57] <ESphynx> (at the time when I just had that 2 minute frustration :P)
[02:57] <ESphynx> veebers: are there? i'm talking about a terminal 'link', not the actual terminal :P
[02:57] <veebers> ESphynx: I love being able to hit <super> start typing <something> and hit enter
[02:58] <veebers> ESphynx: although i admit it wasn't the first thing I tried
[02:58] <veebers> ESphynx: ah ok understood
[02:58] <ESphynx> I'm okay with Linux becoming user friendly, but not OK with sacrificing pleasing power users for it...
[02:58] <ESphynx> I mean even on Windows 7
[02:58] <ESphynx> I can click Start, All programs, Accessories, and there's my Command Prompt
[02:59] <ESphynx> I hate how All programs became less obvious than Programs before...
[02:59] <ESphynx> All programs is so not in Focus... but to me that should be the menu that pops up, along with a type box (which I admit is nice)
[03:00] <ESphynx> You click Super, and you see your categories (Accessories, Development, Documents, whatever...) and then your type box active by defualt at the bottom
[03:00] <ESphynx> is how I would like to be.
[03:01] <ESphynx> anyway. just a suggestion :) I'd be very happy if the terminal was easier to find.
[03:01] <ESphynx> any chance to be able to move the dock to the right? :)
[03:02] <ESphynx> (I had a very rough start with Unity. Alt-Tab used to crash the system.)
[03:02] <ESphynx> i.e. in previous Ubuntu version. I believe that's no longer an issue :P
[06:37] <Mirv> anyone trying out compiz 0.9.8.2 will bump into this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gsettings-desktop-schemas/+bug/1050216
[06:37] <Mirv> can be fixed manually by gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences button-layout 'close,minimize,maximize'
[06:53] <didrocks> Mirv: the default is 'close,minimize,maximize:'
[06:54] <didrocks> what did you test exactly?
[06:55] <Mirv> didrocks: ah, should be ":" in the end?
[06:56] <didrocks> Mirv: yeah, but that's the default
[06:56] <Mirv> didrocks: it's not after gtk-window-decorator starts using gsettings and the default from gsettings-desktop.schemas
[06:56] <Mirv> so if one upgrades to 0.9.8.2 from eg. ppa:timo-jyrinki/compiz-withoutgconf then buttons are on the right side
[06:56] <didrocks> Mirv: are you sure you had the default set?
[06:57] <Mirv> didrocks: what do you mean, where? the buttons are on the right side also in guest session.
[06:57] <didrocks> Mirv: I think your bug is different, the default is already close,minimize,maximize:
[06:57] <Mirv> didrocks: it's not in the schema file of gsettins-desktop-schemas
[06:57] <didrocks> so maybe compiz is not reading the real value
[06:57] <didrocks> Mirv: because it doesn't work like that, we don't sed the schemas
[06:57] <didrocks> we have overrides files
[06:58] <didrocks> try this:
[06:58] <didrocks> gsettings reset org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences button-layout
[06:58] <didrocks> gsettings get org.gnome.desktop.wm.preferences button-layout
[06:58] <didrocks> what do you get?
[07:01] <Mirv> didrocks: on current quantal version, in guest session, :minimize,maximize,close
[07:01] <Mirv> with https://code.launchpad.net/~timo-jyrinki/ubuntu/quantal/gsettings-desktop-schemas/fix_button_layout/+merge/124106 , the correct one
[07:01] <didrocks> Mirv: do you have /usr/share/glib-2.0/schemas/10_ubuntu-default-settings.gschema.override installed?
[07:02] <Mirv> didrocks: no, it does not look so
[07:03] <didrocks> Mirv: so, this is your bug, you need to have ubuntu-default-settings installed
[07:03] <didrocks> it's a dep of ubuntu-desktop metapackage
[07:03] <Mirv> didrocks: ah.. suddenly things start to make sense. at some point I've lost ubuntu-desktop. marking bug as invalid
[07:04] <didrocks> Mirv: let me just paste the conversation here, maybe that can help other people :)
[07:04] <Mirv> :D
[07:05] <didrocks> Mirv: can you reject your merge request as well?
[07:05] <didrocks> Mirv: so, basically, as a rule of thumb: we don't patch gsettings values for GNOME components, but uses those overrides
[07:06] <didrocks> this enables us to:
[07:06] <didrocks> - not have yet another patch to rebase regularly
[07:06] <Mirv> sure
[07:06] <didrocks> - have some overrides with the ubuntu config just in one package
[07:06] <didrocks> - enable flavors to not install this package and have different config
[07:06] <didrocks> (like the GNOME remix one)
[07:12] <Mirv> we should have a functional session without ubuntu-default-settings though, too, but definitely not a bug in gsettings-desktop-schemas :)
[07:13] <didrocks> oh, you mean not having it -> the guest session doesn't start even?
[07:14] <Mirv> didrocks: it starts, but heavily broken. I'm filing a bug right now.
[07:15] <didrocks> Mirv: ok, let me know so that I can see the description :)
[07:15] <didrocks> Mirv: you should just have different settings, like "not ubuntu feeling", but it should be usuable
[07:22] <Mirv> didrocks: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/1050237
[07:23] <Mirv> maybe simply a nautilus related problem instead of compiz, but if you can figure out more please change
[07:24] <Mirv> you should be able to reproduce it by simply removing ubuntu-default-settings and starting a guest session
[07:25] <Mirv> so moved to #ubuntu-desktop
[07:29] <duflu> Mirv, didrocks: The trails can probably only happen if the window on the desktop is broken. Because a working window will damage and redraw correctly. And no window will be shown as just wallpaper (drawn by compiz)
[07:30] <didrocks> duflu: not that complicated :)
[07:30] <didrocks> duflu: look my explanation on other channels :)
[07:30] <didrocks> it's not the desktop window which is broken
[07:30] <didrocks> it's just there is nothing handling it
[07:31] <didrocks> duflu: I also added some explanation on the bug report
[07:32] <Mirv> I'm so happy when things get a logical explanation... I started to be puzzled. it's quite many times when things not working is explained by ubuntu-desktop (and friends) missing.
[07:33] <didrocks> Mirv: yeah, I prefer as well having the precise ins and outs of an issue :)
[07:34] <didrocks> quite difficult sometimes for everyone as the stack and components interacting and quite… huge :)
[07:34] <didrocks> are*
[07:34] <Mirv> didrocks: with that, we'd finally also be back in business with compiz, but there is choice to be made - whether to start testing 0.9.8.2 as is or wait for FFe approval of bug #1047067? we'd now have a fixed expo patch available
[07:35] <didrocks> Mirv: try to ping some release team member to get the FFe acked
[07:35] <Mirv> didrocks: ok
[07:35] <didrocks> Mirv: it shouldn't be difficult IMHO as it's basically a regression fix :)
[07:38] <duflu> didrocks, Mirv: Sounds like bug 1050237 is out of the control of compiz. What project should it be?
[07:38] <didrocks> duflu: well, compiz should probably do as gnome-shell arguably: if nothing draws the desktop, handling it
[07:38] <duflu> didrocks: Already does
[07:38] <duflu> See the bug
[07:39] <didrocks> duflu: saw that, but it doesn't apparently?
[07:39] <duflu> What we cannot handle is some app creating a window over the desktop and then failing to draw to it
[07:39] <didrocks> at least for Mirv
[07:39] <didrocks> duflu: nautilus doesn't create a window AFAIK
[07:39] <didrocks> duflu: it does nothing here
[07:39] <duflu> didrocks: Yes it does
[07:39] <duflu> Just usually not visible cos it's the same as the default wallpaper
[07:39] <didrocks> ah, so it's a bug in nautilus, it shouldn't in that case
[07:40] <didrocks> duflu: with the option off?
[07:40] <didrocks> duflu: that's what you tried?
[07:40] <duflu> didrocks: I haven't tried anything, but I know from recent fixes how it gets drawn
[07:41] <duflu> At the bottom, compiz opengl plugin always paints the wallpaper
[07:41] <duflu> Next, usually, nautilus is running and repaints the wallpaper, plus icons etc
[07:41] <didrocks> duflu: so, here is what the bug is about
[07:42] <didrocks> duflu: I think you misread/I didn't explain it right
[07:42] <didrocks> duflu: in Mirv's case, without the override, the default is "nautilus don't draw the background"
[07:42] <didrocks> this is why you see this trail here
[07:42] <duflu> But it still creates a window
[07:42] <didrocks> that's my question, did you confirm this?
[07:42] <duflu> which is on top of what the opengl plugin paints
[07:43] <duflu> So the trails are still nautilus
[07:43] <didrocks> duflu: ^
[07:43] <duflu> didrocks: How? Just remove the package and log in guest?
[07:45] <didrocks> duflu: org.gnome.desktop.background show-desktop-icons, set that to false
[07:45] <didrocks> then, you can kill nautilus
[07:46] <Mirv> I re-tested it myself by apt-get remove ubuntu-default-settings and launching guest session
[07:51] <duflu> didrocks, Mirv: Nope, tried all that and still no bug :/
[07:56] <Mirv> :( still a mystery, then
[07:57] <Mirv> except for that like I said, on guest ps ax | grep nautilus shows nothing
[07:57] <Mirv> for me
[07:57] <didrocks> yeah, nautilus isn't started in that case
[07:57] <didrocks> so it seems compiz doesn't fallback
[07:57] <Mirv> unless ubuntu-default-settings is installed
[07:57] <didrocks> Mirv: right, and again, this is expected :)
[07:58] <Mirv> ok, good..
[12:07] <Mirv> didrocks: FFe approved, please merge lp:~timo-jyrinki/ubuntu/quantal/compiz/fix_expo to lp:ubuntu/compiz so we have the fixed expo in and enabled
[12:08] <didrocks> Mirv: sweet! done :)
[12:09] <Mirv> thanks!
[12:10] <didrocks> yw :)
[14:20] <tjaalton> is it possible to run compiz with GL on quantal, in order to verify drivers being broken/getting fixed?
[16:30] <davidcalle> JohnLea, ping?
[20:59] <mhr3_> bschaefer, ping?
[20:59] <bschaefer> mhr3_, a bit late for you isn't it?
[20:59] <mhr3_> oh yey :)
[20:59] <mhr3_> bschaefer, could you re-approve the branches we approved today but failed?
[20:59] <mhr3_> start light to see if the mergers work now :)
[21:00] <mhr3_> that's all :)
[21:00] <bschaefer> mhr3_, alright! They should be in my email :)
[21:00] <mhr3_> bschaefer, and thanks
[21:00] <bschaefer> or active reviews
[21:00] <mhr3_> ;)
[21:00] <bschaefer> np :)
[21:00] <bschaefer> have a good night!
[21:00] <mhr3_> thanks
[21:00]  * mhr3_ hopes to wake up to an awesome day where everything is merged :)