[00:08] <delinquentme> http://pastie.org/4722903  QUESTION on this one.
[00:08] <delinquentme> so it now seems that the "trunk" mentioned here is kind of akin to a branch in git
[00:08] <delinquentme> like in this example ... you're initializing a project ... as well as a subset of that project with specific code
[00:38] <delinquentme> silly question: is bazaar named after the practices in "the cathedral and the bazaar" ?
[01:20] <delinquentme> when we're talking the information which is returned by the command " bzr info <repo> "
[01:20] <delinquentme> this will be determined FIRSTLY by if there is a .bzr file within that directory
[01:20] <delinquentme> right?
[01:23] <SamB_MacG5> delinquentme: depending on plugins, .git and whatever SVN uses can also matter
[01:23] <fullermd> info will find the nearest branch upward from where you are, and talk about stuff relative to that.
[01:24] <delinquentme> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch:
[01:24] <delinquentme> so if i get that ....
[01:24] <delinquentme> bzr is actually checking the parent dir to my current one ?
[01:24] <delinquentme> and finding nothing?
[01:25] <fullermd> No, it'll check . then ../ then ../../ then ../../../ then...
[01:25] <fullermd> Not a branch means it found its way up to / without hitting one.
[01:29] <delinquentme> thats interesting.
[01:29] <delinquentme> also does anyone in here have a diagram of which they are confident
[01:29] <delinquentme> in how it portrays a correct usage of bzr branches / trunks with regards to directory structure?
[01:30] <delinquentme> basically im after:
[01:30] <delinquentme> " Are branches parallel directories with the same files which happen to vary only slightly ? "
[01:30] <fullermd> I think you're trying to assign _way_ too much intrinsic meaning to "trunk".  Unless you're running a telco, maybe.
[01:30] <delinquentme> I'm just not sure about how branches work haha
[01:31] <fullermd> "trunk" isn't a technical term in any modern VCS.  It's purely a _social_ term used to refer to specific branches with social meaning.
[01:31] <delinquentme> like project_main/branch_1
[01:31] <delinquentme> project_main/branch_2
[01:31] <delinquentme> ok check
[01:31] <delinquentme> where branch_1 and branch_2 are very close in their history
[01:31] <fullermd> A branch is abstractly just a particular set of files with a particular history, and concretely an instance of that in the filesystem.
[01:32] <fullermd> It may be closely related to some other branch, distantly related, or completely unrelated.
[01:32] <delinquentme> so wait. branches dont intrinsically map to different directories??
[01:32] <delinquentme> because it seems then I've got that all wrong when it comes to bzr
[01:33] <fullermd> In bzr usage (leaving aside exotic or experimental stuff), a branch exists as a single dir (tree).
[01:33] <SamB_MacG5> delinquentme: well, generally they actually do have directories associated with them, but those directories need contain nothing besides .bzr ...
[01:34] <delinquentme> fullermd, Ok so if I want to work on multiple branches from a single project
[01:34] <delinquentme> I could possibly have a primary project dir ... and within that a dir corresponding to each branch?
[01:34] <fullermd> Then you would generally have a dir for each branch.
[01:34] <fullermd> Right.
[01:35] <fullermd> Often, that project dir would also be a shared repo, so as to avoid extra space/IO usage.  But that doesn't change anything semantically in your operations.
[01:36] <delinquentme> fullermd, in this case ... what does a shared repo mean?
[01:36] <delinquentme> are you saying shared with other users?
[01:36] <fullermd> No, shared between the branches.
[01:37] <delinquentme> ah! ok
[01:37] <delinquentme> YESSSSSSSSs
[01:37] <delinquentme> I UNDERSTAND!!!!!
[01:37] <fullermd> What's your VCS background (if any)?  You were talking git earlier?
[01:37] <delinquentme> git =]
[01:37] <delinquentme> yar
[01:37] <delinquentme> right now im seeing no real issues with bzr
[01:37] <delinquentme> id looove something to allow me to edit commit history
[01:37] <delinquentme> but other than that im OK with it
[01:38] <fullermd> 'k.  In git, "repo" is the term for the main visible thing you deal with.  You've got your working tree there, and the branches and revisions are abstract 'hidden' stuff inside it.
[01:38] <delinquentme> yeah
[01:38] <delinquentme> whereas in bzr branches actually have visible locations
[01:38] <fullermd> In bzr, "branch" is the main visible thing you deal with, which contains the working tree, and also the branch metadata internally.
[01:38] <delinquentme> OHHHHH  (tentative )
[01:39] <fullermd> "repo" refers to an interal thing that holds the revisions.  In the simplest setup, that's hidden away inside each branch.
[01:39] <fullermd> A "shared repo" allows a single repo to be used simultaneously by multiple branches.
[01:39] <fullermd> So if you have 2 branches that are identical, with 100 revisions, and then each branch adds 1 new one:
[01:39] <fullermd> - With "standalone" branches, you're storing 101 revs in one place, and 101 in another, for 202 total.
[01:40] <fullermd> - With a shared repo, you're storing 100 common revs once, and 1 new one from each side, for 102 total.
[01:40] <delinquentme> fullermd, you're good hahah
[01:40] <fullermd> That saves disk space and IOPS and filesystem cache and inodes and blah blah blah.
[01:40] <delinquentme> OK so when youve got code that you've pulled down from the main project
[01:40] <delinquentme> and you're about to start on a big new feature
[01:40] <fullermd> But it doesn't directly affect anything you do at the UI level; you never interact with the repo itself, just the two branches the same as if they were standalone.
[01:40] <delinquentme> in git you'd make a new branch
[01:41] <delinquentme> in bzr what would you do?
[01:41] <SamB_MacG5> fullermd: except, of course, to set things up in the first place
[01:41] <fullermd> Same thing.  Just that the branch would be another dir in your filesystem, instead of a 'name' in your existing dir.
[01:41] <SamB_MacG5> and that things like qlog will care ...
[01:41] <delinquentme> awesome!
[01:41] <delinquentme> SamB_MacG5, I was about to jump in and ask just that
[01:41] <fullermd> delinquentme: You may find http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/MatthewFuller/SpotDocs/PiecesInBrief useful.
[01:42] <delinquentme> so the separation between shared and standalone happens basically in how you initalized the directory
[01:42] <fullermd> (and possibly some of the other stuff under http://wiki.bazaar.canonical.com/MatthewFuller/SpotDocs)
[01:42] <fullermd> There's a little stuff at the end of the PiecesInLength page that tries to do some cross-VCS comparisons of the terminology/subdisions.
[01:43] <delinquentme> fullermd, can I ask what you do?
[01:43] <fullermd> Or change it afterward.  You can take a standalone branch and adjust it to use a shared repo, and vice versa.  But yeah, the only time you really do anything directly to/with a shared repo is in setting one up.  The rest of the time, you just deal with branches, and bzr does the repo stuff internally.
[01:43]  * fullermd shrugs.
[01:44] <fullermd> Programming, sysadmin, sit on IRC and make bad puns.  What everyone else does.
[01:44] <delinquentme> like im curious how you got good wit both bzr and git
[01:44] <delinquentme> are you a rails programmer?
[01:44] <fullermd> Ghod no.  I have standards  ;p
[01:44] <delinquentme> hahaha
[01:44] <SamB_MacG5> snakes on a plane?
[01:44] <delinquentme> @_@ you made that movie?
[01:45]  * delinquentme calmed humility
[01:45] <SamB_MacG5> what?
[01:45] <fullermd> I'm good with bzr 'cuz I've been using it for...   uh...  god, like 7 years now?
[01:45] <delinquentme> which do you use more?
[01:45] <delinquentme> git / bzr
[01:45] <delinquentme> and why?
[01:45] <fullermd> I'm good with git 'cuz...  well, I'm not.  I just know enough about its general structure to make reasonably good bzr comparisons.
[01:46] <fullermd> Only time I use git is when I deal with other projects that are in git.  Ditto with hg and monotone etc.
[01:46] <fullermd> git just isn't confident enough to use more often.  I mean, lookit:
[01:46] <delinquentme> oh and what about bzr break-lock
[01:46] <fullermd> % git rocks
[01:46] <fullermd> git: 'rocks' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
[01:46] <fullermd> % bzr rocks
[01:46] <fullermd> It sure does!
[01:46] <delinquentme> the docs are scaring me
[01:47] <fullermd> break-lock is one of those escape-hatch sorta commands.  You should probably never need to know it.
 SamB says: [<lambdabot> emertens says: screw ruby on rails, I'm using snakes on a plane] <SamB> is that a Python web framework?
[01:48] <delinquentme> so im thinking that if the file isn't setup as a bzr repo ... then this could be a possible reason im getting this:
[01:48] <delinquentme> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir
[01:48] <delinquentme> when attempting to push
[01:48] <delinquentme> haha
[01:49] <fullermd> Mmm, could mean something is odd with the filesystem or something on the server, not letting it do something it thinks it should be able to.
[01:49] <fullermd> Or possibly something like a half-setup branch, where there's enough that bzr thinks it's a branch (otherwise it would be trying to create one), but not enough that the lock dir is where it should be.
[01:49] <delinquentme> well actually nm it has to be a bzr repo because I fetched a branch from it
[01:50] <fullermd> Oh, or just some kinda permission thing, of course.
[01:52] <delinquentme> ok so i've got a project_dir and within in that a trunk dir
[01:52] <delinquentme> ( thats what they called it .. im not trying to make problems =P )
[01:52] <delinquentme> so that should be a bzr branch
[01:52]  * fullermd nods.
[01:53] <delinquentme> probably what they're using as i guess you could call the "main storage branch"
[01:53] <delinquentme> and then I need to fork off of that branch and create new ones to edit / test / run needle-pokey-like experimentation on
[01:54] <SamB_MacG5> delinquentme: trunk is the conventional name for that sort of branch, yes
[01:54] <SamB_MacG5> it's just that bzr doesn't know that
[01:54] <delinquentme> YESSSSSS
[01:54] <delinquentme> ( learning )
[01:54]  * delinquentme 5 year old grin
[01:55] <fullermd> So you'd do something like `cd $project_dir ; bzr branch trunk needle-pokey-like ; cd needle-pokey-like ; *grab needle*`
[01:57] <delinquentme> ok so I think... they made a dir and didn't actually set it up
[01:57] <delinquentme> so they've got a production env running at /usr/local/derp
[01:58] <delinquentme> i want to copy whats in derp ... into the /home/shared/sources/derpdb/trunk
[01:58] <delinquentme> cp /usr/local/derp /home/shared/sources/derpdb/trunk
[02:00] <SamB_MacG5> derp?
[02:01] <fullermd> derpdb.  It's the newest Web Scale NoSQL craze.  Get with the program, man.
[02:01]  * SamB_MacG5 grumbles about dict(1) not getting urban dictionary defs
[02:03] <delinquentme> lolol
[02:03] <delinquentme> LISTEN gais its in development OKE?
[02:03] <delinquentme> its a social integration specific solution.
[02:03] <delinquentme> facebook meets databases for cat owners
[02:05] <SamB_MacG5> do I have to sign an NDA now?
[02:06] <fullermd> No need.  Your cat has already done so on your behalf.
[02:08] <SamB_MacG5> darn them and their windows-only anti-cat-typing software!
[02:09] <delinquentme> SamB_MacG5, have a facebook?
[02:09] <delinquentme> ever looked a a cat pic online?
[02:09] <delinquentme> then you've already agreed.
[02:49] <delinquentme> oh.
[02:49] <delinquentme> where relative to the branches ...
[02:49] <delinquentme> should the .bzr file b e?
[02:49] <delinquentme> they should be siblings right?
[02:49] <mgrandi> should be inside the branch folder
[02:50] <mgrandi> there is a .bzr folder per branch
[02:50] <delinquentme> kk
[02:50] <mgrandi> hidden if you are on mac and linux
[02:50] <mgrandi> windows too
[02:50] <delinquentme> so what might be happening if im getting "not a branch"
[02:50] <delinquentme> when I attempt to branch a dir which clearly contains a .bzr file
[02:50] <mgrandi> are you in the repository directory?
[02:51] <mgrandi> instead of the branch dir
[02:51] <delinquentme> well let me step back
[02:51] <delinquentme> im trying to copy whats on the main repo
[02:51] <delinquentme> to local machine
[02:52] <delinquentme> is branch the right command?
[02:52] <mgrandi> yeah, that will branch the entire history for that branch
[02:52] <delinquentme> ok so yeah somethings wrong them
[02:52] <delinquentme> then
[02:53] <delinquentme> Umm when i do bzr info within that branch
[02:53] <delinquentme> it lists a parent branch
[02:53] <mgrandi> is this just a normal branch?
[02:53] <mgrandi> does it have a repository?
[02:53] <delinquentme> would that prevent me from being able to branch a child from the parent ... if a grand parent exists?
[02:54] <delinquentme> so I just made the repository .. by copying what was in production
[02:54] <delinquentme>  a straight cp
[02:54] <delinquentme> operation
[02:54] <mgrandi> i mean on the server
[02:54] <fullermd> No, parent is a cosmetic thing, really.  Just a default location.
[02:54] <mgrandi> was it Repo / branch
[02:54] <delinquentme> oh and the server has both production and the main repo
[02:54] <delinquentme> ( I know not safe )
[02:55] <mgrandi> so trying to branch fromt he server is not working?
[02:55] <delinquentme> yeah
[02:55] <delinquentme> ditto
[02:55] <delinquentme> ALSO another question ... when I go to push :parent
[02:55] <delinquentme> in this situation
[02:55] <mgrandi> can you do a 'du -hac' for the server directory you are trying to branch from?
[02:55] <mgrandi> and paste that to pastebin or something
[02:55] <delinquentme> that will push to whatever dir I branched from right?
[02:55] <delinquentme> sure
[02:56] <mgrandi> if you saved the push directory (by doing like bzr push --remember) then bzr push will push it to the remembered directory
[02:56] <delinquentme> its large haha
[02:56] <mgrandi> yeah its fine
[02:56] <delinquentme> ok it overflowed my history in bash
[02:56] <fullermd> "du -hac"?  Is that a Rammstein song?
[02:56] <delinquentme> lol smh
[02:56] <mgrandi> xD
[02:57] <mgrandi> it can be
[02:57] <delinquentme> so like theres just a ton of images
[02:57] <delinquentme> was there something specific you were after?
[02:57] <mgrandi> just do it on the .bzr directory then
[02:57] <mgrandi> du -hac /repo/branch/bzr
[02:57] <mgrandi> du -hac /repo/branch/.bzr
[02:57] <delinquentme> http://pastebin.com/1U1M831m
[02:58] <mgrandi> ok
[02:58] <delinquentme> I think thats what you want :D
[02:58] <mgrandi> so that seems fine
[02:58] <delinquentme> aweso
[02:58] <mgrandi> so
[02:58] <mgrandi> branching from that directory
[02:58] <mgrandi> says its not a branch?
[02:59] <delinquentme> branching from trunk yeah
[02:59] <mgrandi> so this is from a server -> local machine?
[02:59] <delinquentme> from my local machine through sftp
[02:59] <mgrandi> try doing it on the server itself (through ssh or something)
[02:59] <delinquentme> bingo
[02:59] <mgrandi> just make a tmp branch or something
[02:59] <delinquentme> so make a local branch
[03:00] <mgrandi> ?
[03:00] <mgrandi> well just to see if that works
[03:00] <delinquentme> do I have any options if the repo is huge?
[03:00] <mgrandi> could try a lighweight branch
[03:01] <mgrandi> this is just to see if it bzr thinks its a branch
[03:01] <fullermd> info would be quicker.
[03:01] <mgrandi> he says info was working but its  not branching?
[03:01] <mgrandi> try info then
[03:03] <delinquentme> yeh info works
[03:03] <fullermd> Well, if info shows a branch there, branch'ing from it should work.  If it doesn't, there's probably something pretty deep going wrong somewhere.
[03:03] <fullermd> And branch'ing from that same location fails?
[03:03] <mgrandi> try posting your .bzrlog
[03:03] <mgrandi> maybe its throwing an error
[03:03] <delinquentme> http://pastebin.com/BmT6mdD4
[03:04] <fullermd> 'k, and what's the 'branch' command you're trying to run and its output?
[03:05] <delinquentme> soo I dont have a .bzrlog file within the trunk
[03:05] <fullermd> No, it would be in ~
[03:06] <delinquentme> http://pastebin.com/wDxaBiZS
[03:06] <delinquentme> oic
[03:07] <delinquentme> nothing in ~/ either
[03:07] <mgrandi> its a hidden file
[03:07] <mgrandi> .bzrlog
[03:07] <fullermd> 'k, do an info on that URL you're trying to branch from.
[03:07] <fullermd> .bzr.log actually.
[03:07] <fullermd> But there's probably enough in UI output to track things down.
[03:08] <fullermd> (also, if you have sufficient access on the server and it's got bzr, using bzr+ssh will be better than sftp as a rule.  But almost certainly not germane to the "getting things working" level)
[03:09] <delinquentme> you lost me after germane
[03:10] <fullermd> It's like silic except with a lower forward voltage drop.
[03:10] <fullermd> 's mostly just an aside, so ignore it for the moment.
[03:10] <delinquentme> lol ok
[03:11] <delinquentme> so I should try bzr+ssh
[03:11] <delinquentme> i get a command not found
[03:12] <fullermd> It'll generally be faster (often a _lot_ faster).  But so far, that probably means it'll fail faster.
[03:12] <delinquentme> $ bzr branch bzr+ssh://nacho
[03:12] <delinquentme> bash: bzr: command not found
[03:12] <fullermd> That probably means bzr isn't installed on the far end.
[03:12] <fullermd> Which does mean that bzr+ssh won't work, and you'd need to use sftp.
[03:13] <fullermd> But also makes one step back and ask if there really is a bzr branch on the server at all...
[03:13] <delinquentme> here is the log file https://gist.github.com/3726216
[03:13] <delinquentme> well bzr info wouldn't work if it wasn't installed right?
[03:14] <fullermd> Yeah, that doesn't tell us anything; 's all about your local stuff, which presumably is fine.
[03:14] <delinquentme> and IDK what having a /trunk/.bzr file means ... but I THINK that means its a bzr branch right?
[03:14] <fullermd> bzr doesn't require anything bzr-ish on the server side over dumb transports (which sftp is)
[03:14] <fullermd> It's entirely possible to have bzr branches hosted via those methods on servers that don't themselves have bzr installed.
[03:14] <delinquentme> oh no im sshed in and running "bzr info"
[03:14] <delinquentme> ive got ssh access as well as trying to setup the remote pushes for bzr
[03:15] <delinquentme> so I can do like bzr push :parent
[03:15] <delinquentme> and move it localmachine >> server
[03:15] <fullermd> OK, I think we're (at least I'm) getting a bit overloaded with multiple questions at once here.
[03:16] <delinquentme> ok so 1) I think it has bzr installed on the server
[03:16] <fullermd> Let's split 'em out.  First off, the "bzr branch sftp://..." leaving to "Not a branch" error.
[03:16] <mgrandi> so, have you pushed the branch locally into the server yet?
[03:16] <delinquentme> I have not mgrandi
[03:16] <mgrandi> so there is no branch at /nacho/whatever/trunk?
[03:16] <fullermd> Why is that happening?  The most obvious is "well, there's no branch there".  Are you expecting one to be so?
[03:17] <delinquentme> but I've verified that there are infact files in the dir that im attempting to branch from
[03:17] <delinquentme> externally ( via ssh )
[03:17] <delinquentme> so I know the files are there ... I know bzr is installed on the server
[03:17] <delinquentme> and I know there is a trunk/.bzr directory
[03:18] <delinquentme> mgrandi, I've not yet pulled down anything locally from *this* server
[03:18] <delinquentme> they have another dev server that I managed to pull from but thats within another directory all together
[03:18] <fullermd> What does bzr info sftp://nacho......   tell you?
[03:19] <delinquentme> https://gist.github.com/3726216
[03:19] <delinquentme> nacho was a replacement name -- this is the actual machine and links and all that action
[03:20] <delinquentme> SHIT. you can see this is a rails project =P
[03:20] <mgrandi> we all hate you now. (just kidding)
[03:20] <fullermd> 'k.  You can ssh into the server, right?  And it does have bzr installed?
[03:21] <fullermd> 's cool.  We won't make fun of you 'till after you log off.  It's only polite.
[03:21] <delinquentme> yeah .. I mean I think it has it installed because Im running "bzr info trunk/"
[03:21] <delinquentme> and getting solid output
[03:21] <delinquentme> hahah
[03:21] <delinquentme> i dont wear tight pants
[03:21] <delinquentme> ... all the time
[03:21] <delinquentme> but it isss friday nightttt
[03:22] <fullermd> 'k.  Do an 'info' on the server, using the full path, and paste that.
[03:23] <delinquentme> https://gist.github.com/3726216
[03:25] <fullermd> 'k, well something doesn't match up.  You're in /home/share/source/BETYdb/ when you run that command?
[03:25] <delinquentme> yar
[03:25] <fullermd> Is sftp chroot'ing you somewhere?
[03:25] <delinquentme> HMMMM
[03:25] <delinquentme> good question
[03:26] <delinquentme> well it could be .. but im giving it the full system path sooo
[03:26] <delinquentme> ( when sftping in )
[03:26] <fullermd> Well, if you were chroot'd, the full path would be the path under that root, which would be sure to be wrong.
[03:26] <delinquentme> so that should negate that right?
[03:26] <fullermd> I'd hope not.  If it did, chroot would be useless  ;p
[03:27] <delinquentme> me google
[03:27] <delinquentme> ah!
[03:27] <fullermd> Oh no, you can probably just test it manually by sftp'ing in and ls'ing around.
[03:27] <delinquentme> oh is that a real ...
[03:27] <delinquentme> whats the word?
[03:27] <delinquentme> http ftp ssh
[03:27] <fullermd> "thingy"
[03:28] <delinquentme> ROFL
[03:28] <delinquentme> it might be chrooting me to my user dir
[03:28] <delinquentme> fullermd, you might have just won
[03:28] <fullermd> Sweet.  I'd like to thank the Academy...
[03:29] <delinquentme> yarp.
[03:29] <delinquentme> nailed it
[03:29]  * delinquentme dances
[03:29] <fullermd> I'm a little curious about bzr+ssh not working, since bzr is obviously installed.
[03:29] <delinquentme> obvi-rus-ree
[03:29] <fullermd> Maybe it's in a weird place your $PATH is covering in an interactive session?
[03:34] <delinquentme> OK new question all together
[03:34] <delinquentme> hopefully one substantially simpler
[03:35] <delinquentme> How do you guys setup your development from your production servers
[03:35] <delinquentme> and how do you deploy
[03:35] <delinquentme> in rails ( sorry ) theres all kinds of plugins to do things on deploy and hooks and needles and spears
[03:35] <delinquentme> what does a deploy look like for you guys on bzr
[03:35] <fullermd> I'm old school.  I use Makefile's.
[03:36] <fullermd> (well, except for the things where I use my embryonic make(1) replacement, but philosophically the same)
[03:36] <fullermd> In ruby I guess you'd use rake.
[03:36] <mgrandi> i wish python had rake.
[03:36] <mgrandi> but installing stuff from pip is super hit or miss.
[03:37] <fullermd> There's some [im]moral equivalent.
[03:37] <delinquentme> so you kind of compile stuff
[03:37] <delinquentme> and then shove it to the server
[03:37] <delinquentme> yeah
[03:37] <fullermd> No, just use make as a way to wrap the deployment stuff.
[03:37] <delinquentme> rake it basically the dingo that hops everything along
[03:37] <delinquentme> ^ intelligible
[03:37] <fullermd> Could about as easily use a shell script for 95% of it, since it doesn't really rely on much dependancy tracking.
[03:38] <fullermd> But make's there, and already provides me targets and chaining and suchlike, so..
[03:40] <delinquentme> fullermd, could I see one of your makefiles?
[03:40] <delinquentme> im familiar with shell scripts but not make files
[03:40] <delinquentme> Makefiles*
[03:41] <fullermd> For web app deployment?  Mmm.  They're mostly pretty abstracted for all the flexibility we use; not a good template to learn from.
[03:43] <fullermd> (plus the incredibly nasty Stupid Tricks they do to get around the weakness of make and/or sh as languages.  Part of the reason for my replacement...)
[03:44] <fullermd> Eep, didn't realize how late it was getting.  I better get back to work...
[03:45] <delinquentme> yeah i need to shower
[03:45] <delinquentme> THANKS A TONNNNNNNNNNNN
[03:47] <mgrandi> anytime
[04:05] <delinquentme> Oh... now If when I sftp into the server
[04:05] <delinquentme> and I can access root FROM the sftp
[04:05] <delinquentme> erm not root
[04:05] <delinquentme> i mean I can access /
[17:19] <SamB_MacG5> soo .. bzr bisect doesn't use the terms "good" and "bad" ...
[18:10] <SamB_MacG5> gah, I hate imperative code
[18:48] <delinquentme> ok talk to me about the central repo
[18:48] <delinquentme> it doesnt have files in it??
[18:57] <delinquentme> also which development method is closer to git? centralized?
[18:58] <ScottK> No.
[19:00] <SamB_MacG5> delinquentme: not much point having a checkout in a published branch
[19:00] <SamB_MacG5> generally
[19:01] <SamB_MacG5> er, I should say working tree
[19:01] <SamB_MacG5> checkout means something a bit strange here
[19:03] <delinquentme> ok so if a central repo doesnt have files
[19:03] <delinquentme> when you branch from the central repo
[19:03] <delinquentme> where are the files coming from?
[19:03] <SamB_MacG5> what is it that you think a version control system does?
[19:04] <delinquentme> Im used to git ... so like im thinking the files are in a central origin
[19:04] <ScottK> Branches are branches.  There in nothing that bzr considers a mster.
[19:04] <delinquentme> and git is controlling the modification to that
[19:04] <ScottK> You can do checkouts, but that's more like svn than git.
[19:04] <SamB_MacG5> where do the files come from when you clone a bare git repository?
[19:04] <ScottK> (no offline commits for example)
[19:04] <delinquentme> im not sure I know what a bare git repo is...
[19:05] <delinquentme> like when you clone a repo ... all of the files are in that repo
[19:05] <delinquentme> and you then copy them from the repo to your local
[19:05] <delinquentme> hence why im confused about where the files reside in a bzr setup
[19:05] <SamB_MacG5> delinquentme: have you never seen a plain-http-published git repository?
[19:05] <delinquentme> sure
[19:06] <SamB_MacG5> normally those have names ending in .git, and are bare
[19:06] <delinquentme> hmm
[19:06] <delinquentme> what does bare mean?
[19:06] <SamB_MacG5> in git, bare means there is no working tree, it's just what would go in the .git directory
[19:07] <SamB_MacG5> anyway, in bzr, the files come from the branch
[19:07] <SamB_MacG5> regardless of whether or not there is a working tree
[19:08] <delinquentme> ok ok yeah so you're not saying that there are no files ... by bare you mean that there are no modifications which lie outside of commits
[19:08] <delinquentme> so there should infact be files within the branch?
[19:09] <SamB_MacG5> basically, the files are hidden inside a database
[19:09] <delinquentme> OH.
[19:09] <delinquentme> so then it IS empty
[19:09] <delinquentme> and when i pull from a central repo
[19:09] <delinquentme> it spits out stuff from that DB
[19:09] <delinquentme> to allow me to populate the branch i just made
[19:10] <SamB_MacG5> that's actually where it always gets the files ;-)
[19:12] <delinquentme> so is this like a special bzr DB?
[19:12] <delinquentme> orrrr is it a mysql DB? or what
[19:12] <SamB_MacG5> yeah, special bzr db
[19:13] <delinquentme> So should the main repo be completely naked?
[19:13] <delinquentme> devoid of files?
[19:13] <delinquentme> not even a hidden .bzr
[19:13] <SamB_MacG5> the .bzr directory is where the database is kept
[19:14] <delinquentme> kk
[19:15] <SamB_MacG5> (although, with shared repositories, the database with the actual file contents would be in the repo's .bzr dir)
[19:17] <SamB_MacG5> (the branch's .bzr dir would then mostly serve to tell bzr which commit in the repository was the last one on this branch)
[19:19] <delinquentme> you guys dont usually have a server displaying the primary repo to incoming traffic do you?
[19:21] <SamB_MacG5> Many things have trunk at lp:~<user|group>/<project>/trunk
[19:22] <SamB_MacG5> so, um, depends on the project
[19:30] <delinquentme> so the distinction to pick --trees or --no-trees
[19:30] <delinquentme> is whether you're going to be editing files within that directory?
[19:44] <delinquentme> "One of the main reasons we don't want to create a working tree is that the tree needs to be updated by each push leading to potential problems where the workign tree checked out is out of date compared to the actual repository."
[19:44] <delinquentme> does that make sense?
[22:19] <SamB_MacG5> wow the bzr bisect tests run slowly with --coverage ...