[11:34] <ebel> I presume another large factor is that there's a shortage of software developers everywhere.
[11:35] <ebel> It's hard for large tech companies who offer lots of money to find developers. I can't imagine working in the public sector with teenagers :P
[11:35] <zmoylan> good developers are making money in high paying jobs (not teaching) and bad developers might make bad teachers?
[11:36] <ebel> Not to mention IT & tech is much more liberal. Large tech companies sponsor LGBT events. School organisations want to be able to fire teachers who are gay.
[11:37] <zmoylan> religious school organisations want to fire teachers who are gay.  national schools, not so much.
[11:37] <ebel> Microsoft wrote to the washington state legislation saying that the lack of marriage equality is harming their ability to hire people.
[11:37] <ebel> "Washington’s employers are at a disadvantage if we cannot offer a similar, equitable and inclusive environment to our talented employees"  http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2012/jan12/01-19CorpStatement.aspx
[11:38] <ebel> And here pregnant girls can be expelled from schools, gay teachers can be fired.
[11:38] <ebel> No wonder you cannot attrack good teachers who can code!
[11:38] <zmoylan> not a fan of ms but they were one of the first companies to give the same benefits to same sex partners.  good for them on that.
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[11:41] <zmoylan> seems that the laws that allowed a pregnant single mother to be fired in the 80s were still being debated in late 90s.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileen_Flynn
[11:42] <ebel> It's debatable what the law is now. There is cases where a Prodestant teacher's offer of employment was withdrawn, and they won in the equality tribunal/authority/whatever
[11:43] <ebel> (I mean the fact that schools are still doing a religious test for employees shows how far behind they are)
[11:43] <zmoylan> they can get away with a lot claiming it goes against the ethos of the school
[11:43] <ebel> so it's debatable how much power that gives them.
[11:43] <zmoylan> it being ireland it gives a lot of wiggle room
[11:44] <zmoylan> which favours the one with the best most expensive legal support
[11:44] <ebel> But if you're at all liberal and can code, why take the risk? Why not work in a high paid job where you *know* the employer isn;t going to be an arse?
[11:46] <zmoylan> and it's almost impossible i believe to hire male teachers as it only takes one false claim of abuse by a school kid to end their career.
[11:48] <ebel> I had male teachers. Your statement doesn't match reality
[11:50] <zmoylan> the number is dropping quite a bit since i went to school in 70s and 80s.  http://www.ippn.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124:donec-sapien-metus&catid=36:education-news&Itemid=101
[11:52] <ebel> "Ms Hanafin said the starting salary for a primary school teacher with an honours degree, at " hahahahahahahahahahaha
[11:52] <zmoylan> well the low pay doesn't help either
[11:52] <ebel> *ahem* "Ms Hanafin said the starting salary for a primary school teacher with an honours degree, at almost €34,000, would rival the starting salaries of engineers," hhahaah
[11:52] <ebel> yeah, but you have to work with teenagers. :P
[11:52] <ebel> oh wait primary school
[11:53] <zmoylan> the starting salaries of engineers can be very low in some fields.  guessing she cherrypicked a field in case it was asked.
[11:53] <ebel> well, kids can be annoying but maybe less so
[11:53] <ebel> It's probably easier to go up to payscale for engineers
[11:53] <zmoylan> that is definitely true
[11:53] <ebel> that article has no reference to numbers going up or down
[11:53] <zmoylan> whereas in education you have to wait for predecessors to retire to die
[11:54] <ebel> or it's all based on the number of years in the job
[11:54] <zmoylan> in uk 25% of primary schools have no male teachers.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/23/male-teachers-primary-schools
[11:54] <zmoylan> that's an astonishing number i think you'll agree.
[11:55] <zmoylan> i'm guessing it's for a lot of reasons instead of one single one but something is lost to the kids trying to learn.
[11:55] <ebel> I wonder has it gone up or down....
[11:56] <ebel> quotas a la boardroom quotas for women might help here.
[11:56] <zmoylan> in 70s i had all male teachers at primary and in secondary only one female teacher
[11:56] <ebel> In a boys school?
[11:56] <zmoylan> i can see the sense in quotas but am wary of them
[12:02]  * zmoylan is trying to remember if civil service rule on married women affected teachers in 70s.
[12:02] <ebel> don't think so
[12:05] <zmoylan> ah, primary teachers got a 'special' exemption.  http://www.irishtimes.com/indepth/sisters/changes-from-1970s.html :-/
[12:07] <zmoylan> mind you this is ireland and when we first had an equal rights officer appointed for the government they advertised different pay scales for male and female applicants. :-p
[12:10] <zmoylan> there are times i'm stunned we don't still drill holes in peoples heads to let out the evil spirits.
[12:19] <ebel> hahaha
[12:20] <ebel> got a source for the equality different pay thing?
[12:32] <zmoylan> i remember it first in a 80s comedy book of true stories 'heroic book of failures'  and have occasionly tried to track it down to a source since then but no luck so far.
[12:33] <zmoylan> might give it a shot tonight while insomnia strikes