[16:26] <snwh> mpt it was suggested I ought talk to you about mockups I've done, regaring unity settings in Ubuntu: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/main.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications2.png
[16:30] <mpt> snwh, that icons URL <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot.png> gives me a 404.
[16:31] <mpt> now, to the settings panel
[16:31] <snwh> mpt, that one's gone so it'll 404
[16:32] <mpt> snwh, if an Ubuntu user sees the word "Unity" anywhere in the UI, we've screwed up.
[16:32] <snwh> "Dash" then?
[16:33] <snwh> since it's present in the UI already
[16:33] <mpt> We have names for specific elements -- Dash, Launcher, menu bar, windows, notification bubbles, etc -- and that's unavoidable, but there's no reason for people to know that some those elements are part of "Unity" and some aren't.
[16:33] <mpt> "Dash" would be fine, yes.
 Have you considered making the Dash settings part of the "Appearance" tab? There are pros and cons to doing that.
[16:35] <snwh> I think that was briefly discussed when I sent these through unity-design ML
[16:36] <snwh> would it not be more easily found if it were out front -as it were?
[16:37] <mpt> Yes, it would
[16:37] <mpt> I designed a separate "Launcher & Menus" panel a while ago for the same reason
[16:37] <mpt> (back when we were considering making the menu bar more configurable)
[16:38] <snwh> such as the infamous autohide menu.
[16:38] <mpt> So that would be one of the cons. The pro is that it would avoid panel proliferation, with the ugly orphan effect in your mockup.
[16:38] <mpt> (orphan = the last item on a row by itself)
[16:39] <snwh> and we don't want to stretch it again as for U1
[16:39] <mpt> Unfortunately the hard work of merging panels isn't as sexy as creating new ones
 I don't know what "Dash Form Factor" means, and I doubt other people would either :-)
[16:40] <mpt> The menu label is far too far away from the menu -- it should be 12px or so
[16:40] <mpt> "Search Results" looks awkward as a heading when it's the only heading in the panel.
[16:41] <mpt> I've found a good heuristic when designing is that if you're repeating a word several times, you can usually factor it out.
[16:42] <mpt> What's the repeated word here, and how could you solve that and the single-heading problem at the same time?
[16:43] <snwh> Well "Lens"
[16:43] <snwh> a title i suppose
[16:44] <snwh> I wasn't sure about the labeling but to differentiate lens from scopes
[16:46] <mpt> I think "Lens" and (especially) "Scope" falls into the same category as "Unity" :-)
[16:47] <mpt> but actually I was looking at the main area of the "Dash Home" sub-panel specifically
[16:47] <snwh> I thought of putting it in since installable lens and scopes appear in the Software center with that as a label
[16:47] <snwh> Ah "results"
[16:47] <mpt> "Search Results", "Amazon results", "Ubuntu One Music Store results"
[16:47] <mpt> bingo
[16:48] <mpt> So, how could you fix that?
[16:48] <snwh> i had a version without, but thought if its too much i'll be told to remove it
[16:48] <snwh> drop it entirely?
[16:48] <mpt> That's one way. How else?
[16:50] <snwh> scrap it and put the Amazon and U1 store scopes on the left?
[16:50] <mpt> That's a possibility, but I'm not sure what would go in the main area in that case. How else?
[16:51] <snwh> putting me on the spot. I'm blanking
[16:53] <snwh> if the header was gone.. and just the checkboxes..?
[17:05] <mpt> snwh, if someone asked you what these checkboxes do, what would you say?
[17:07] <snwh> Unchecking would prevent Amazon results from appearing in the Dash home
[17:07] <snwh> for example
[17:07] <mpt> And what would checking them do?
[17:07] <snwh> show the results
[17:07] <mpt> good
[17:07] <snwh> a switch
[17:07] <mpt> Those are good words to use in a label
[17:08] <mpt> When searching, show results from:
[17:08] <mpt> [/] Amazon
[17:08] <mpt> [/] Ubuntu One Music Store
[17:08] <mpt> Since it shows results from your PC as well, perhaps "include" would be even better than "show".
[17:09] <snwh> of course

[17:10] <mpt> snwh, would there be a "Show results in Dash Home" checkbox for every lens?
[17:11] <snwh> something along those lines
[17:12] <mpt> Can you think of a drawback to presenting settings for the Dash Home contents that way?
[17:12] <snwh> if a user wanted to hide the results from the home, but not disable the lens entirely
[17:13] <snwh> not knowing which are disabled
[17:13] <mpt> right
[17:14] <mpt> It would be difficult to see, at a glance, which items might appear and which wouldn't.
[17:14] <mpt> You'd have to navigate to each item in the list and then look at its "Show results in Dash Home" checkbox.
[17:15] <mpt> How might you make that quicker?
[17:15] <snwh> a massive checklist
[17:15] <snwh> perhaps under home settings
[17:16] <snwh> would a tree view be too much
[17:16] <mpt> Ah, but you already have a tree view there :-)
[17:16] <mpt> How about using the same one?
[17:16] <snwh> but with an indication of which are disable
[17:17] <snwh> -ed*
[17:17] <mpt> That would work
[17:17] <mpt> Or, you could move the checkbox itself into a column of the treeview.
[17:18] <snwh> of course
[17:18] <snwh> this is why youre the professional
[17:19] <mpt> heh
[17:19] <mpt> With regard to Unity, we're both interested bystanders. :-)
[17:19] <snwh> i was concerned with the advent of more and more lenses this is a missing feature
[17:20] <mpt> yes indeed
[17:23] <snwh> but beyond my skills to try myself
[17:29] <bizhanMona> HI all, according to this URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-June/035445.html  Ubuntu is planning to not to use GRUB 2 for UEFI secure boot. Is this still standing? Thx
[17:29] <bizhanMona> HI all, according to this URL: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-June/035445.html  Ubuntu is planning to not to use GRUB 2 for UEFI secure boot. Is this still standing? Thx
[17:31] <snwh> well mpt, i shall fix the mockups
[17:31] <me4oslav> bizhanMona Try asking on just #ubuntu ... I guess :)
[17:31] <mpt> snwh, good work. Thanks for getting involved.
[17:32] <snwh> mpt, thanks for taking the time
[17:32] <snwh> to set me straight
[17:32] <snwh> heh
[17:33] <mpt> bizhanMona, this isn't really the appropriate channel for that, but no. <http://blog.canonical.com/2012/09/20/quetzal-is-taking-flight-update-on-ubuntu-secure-boot-plans/>
[17:33] <mpt> bizhanMona, if you have more questions after reading that, I suggest asking in #ubuntu-devel.
[17:34] <mpt> (Though I see you already got the same answer in #ubuntu-desktop.)
[17:37] <bizhanMona> mpt: thanks I placed the question on a few ubuntu- channels at the same time, I was not sure which one is the appropriate place. Now i know. thank you.
[17:38] <mpt> np
[19:17] <snwh> alright, mpt some improvements made: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications.png
[19:17] <mpt> snwh, nice work
[19:18] <mpt> snwh, all the panels are settings panels, so "Dash Settings" might be a little redundant :-)
[19:19] <mpt> What choices would be available in the "Dash size:" menu?
[19:20] <snwh> I was thinging full-screen, reduced(?) and automatic
[19:20] <snwh> think*
[19:22] <mpt> snwh, do you know what "Automatic" does?
[19:23] <snwh> Would choose either full-screen or reduced depending on the screen size.
[19:24] <snwh> i guess its not clear to an end user
[19:24] <snwh> "Adapt-to-screen"
[19:26] <mpt> so, there are three options
[19:26] <mpt> Do you think a menu is the best way to present those three options?
[19:26] <snwh> radio buttons?
[19:27] <mpt> yep
[19:28] <mpt> Open the Dash: ( ) Full screen  (*) Reduced on large screens
[19:28] <mpt> or something like that
[19:29] <mpt> (maybe "Dash size:" would actually be clearer for that)
[19:29] <mpt> I guess the "Home" lens item shouldn't have a checkbox at all, eh
[19:30] <mpt> but the rest of them need a column heading to explain what the checkboxes are for
[19:30] <mpt> What could that be
[19:30] <mpt> Oh, I left out the "Automatic" option
[19:30] <mpt> for the Dash size
[19:31] <snwh> well the checkbox is to invoke the status of the lens/scope
[19:31] <mpt> If there are three or more options, radio buttons shouldn't be laid out horizontally -- in this case because they wouldn't fit, but in general because it would mean they were differing distances apart
[19:31] <snwh> so: "Enabled" as a column
[19:31] <mpt> but there's plenty of room here to go vertical
[19:33] <snwh> but doesnt a checkbox have the implicit meaning of whatever it does is enabled or not?
[19:33] <mpt> Size for the Dash when opened: (*) Automatic
[19:33] <mpt>                                ( ) Full screen
[19:33] <mpt>                                ( ) Reduced on smaller screens
[19:33] <mpt> or something
[19:34] <snwh> the radio buttons wouldnt go under the label?
[19:34] <mpt> they could, depending on the width
[19:34] <snwh> okay
[19:35] <mpt> snwh, yes indeed, "Enable", like "Enabled", is best avoided -- invariably it can be rewritten more meaningfully
[19:36] <mpt> I guess a fully explanatory heading would be "Include in Home Results"
[19:36] <mpt> I wonder if that could be shorter
[19:36] <snwh> but then Home is under "Include in Home results" which is paradoxical
[19:36] <mpt> That's okay if it doesn't have a checkbox
[19:37] <snwh> okay
[19:43] <snwh> mpt, could the radio buttons go something like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png
[19:44] <mpt> snwh, yep
[19:45] <mpt> snwh, the radio buttons was just an idea ... it depends partly on how much space is available, and partly on how important the setting is
[19:46] <snwh> well the "window controls" do exist when the dash is present
[20:04] <snwh> mpt, i think we're getting somewhere https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-home.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/unity-settings-panel-applications.png
[20:05] <mpt> Progress indeed
[20:06] <me4oslav> I just came to say, that snwh's speed of creating mockups is to infinity and beyond. **flies away**
[20:07] <snwh> the HUD is very useful in GIMP
[20:11] <mpt> snwh, I need to concentrate on messaging menu stuff now, but I'd be interested to see how the rest of the screens look tomorrow perhaps
[20:11] <mpt> snwh, also, has didrocks seen your work?
[20:13] <snwh> no didrocks hasnt
[20:14] <snwh> i could have the other screens completed
[20:15] <snwh> mpt, i did have a thought on the messaging menu though -regarding icons
[20:15] <mpt> snwh, ah, were you the one who did the colored envelopes?
[20:15] <snwh> yes
[20:16] <mpt> The tricky thing is that we are trying to communicate two different things with the icon
[20:16] <mpt> (1) whether you have new (important) messages or not
[20:16] <mpt> (2) what your chat status is
[20:16] <mpt> Currently we're using the color of the envelope for (1), and the emblem for (2).
[20:17] <mpt> You use the color of the envelope for (2), which gives up (1) altogether as far as I can see.
[20:17] <snwh> what if the envelop were to blink?
[20:18] <mpt> I think that would be unpleasant, because you may want to leave it for hours
[20:18] <snwh> true
[20:18] <mpt> (Actually I think it used to blink, briefly, for a while in the 9.10/10.04 era)
[20:18] <mpt> (and sabdfl rightly scotched it)
[20:19] <snwh> i fail to recall that..
[20:19] <me4oslav> what if only a part of the envelope is coloured in-some-colour?
[20:19] <snwh> my thought was to use the colours since the new message blue would still convey its meaning and revert to the green or what have you when read.
[20:19] <mpt> me4oslav, that's pretty much what the emblem achieves -- with the benefit that it's using miniatures of the same icons Empathy uses itself.
[20:20] <mpt> The problem with the current icons, I think, is that the emblems don't stand out strongly enough against the envelope. That's partly a problem of color (not bright enough), partly size (a little too small), and partly outline (maybe the envelope should have an emblem-shaped chunk cut out of it).
[20:22] <snwh> the different shapes are a bit garish, if they were all circles? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot.png
[20:22] <me4oslav> mpt - I think (major rajor personal opinion) that this colourful emblem is a bit too much (could be very wrong, through)
[20:23] <mpt> snwh, with both the envelope and the emblem, the differing shapes helps people who are color blind
[20:24] <mpt> (or have lesser color impairments)
[20:24] <mpt> However, they are a bit *too* different in size right now
[20:24] <mpt> e.g. the triangle looks much larger than the square
[20:25] <snwh> very true
[20:25] <snwh> if the emblem was within the circle?
[20:26] <snwh> then the overlay would be too small
[20:29] <snwh> mpt, what is it was no longer an envelope?
[20:29] <snwh> if*
[20:32] <snwh> but i suppose thats the most familiar metaphor
[20:32] <snwh> answering my own questions.
[20:36] <mpt> snwh, yes, it could be a speech bubble or something instead
[20:36] <snwh> like the good ol' me menu of the past, heh
[20:36] <mpt> yep
[20:37] <mpt> (which is fair enough, since it is a merger)
[20:37] <mpt> oh, wtf
[20:37] <mpt> OMG Ubuntu, a week ago: "Where no chat accounts are enabled you’ll still be stuck with an annoying green dot (to denote ‘online)."
[20:37] <mpt> And nobody thought to report a bug about that?
[20:38] <snwh> i noticed that with my green envelope thing, but thought it was something i'd done
[21:07] <mpt> (reported bug 1056457)
[21:27] <snwh> mpt, how about shapes like this? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-menu.png
[21:28] <mpt> snwh, that looks okay, except that now you're showing chat status in two different ways
[21:28] <mpt> (a) color of the envelope, and (b) color+shape of the status icon
[21:30] <me4oslav> mpt snwh - In case you haven't seen it: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/is-an-off-switch-for-the-shopping-lens-in-the-works
[21:31] <mpt> :-)
[21:32] <snwh> I only changed the shapes, just now. havent touched the envelopes
[21:32] <snwh> Geez Joey is everywhere
[22:08] <mpt> If Joey was here, I would scowl at him here for not reporting that bug
[22:35] <mpt> snwh, I reported http://launchpad.net/bugs/1056488 about the messaging menu icons
[22:35]  * mpt -> home
[22:37] <me4oslav> mpt you've at the office 'til 11.37?
[22:37] <me4oslav> O.o
[22:37] <me4oslav> PM that is
[22:37] <mpt> yeah, I was sick this morning so started at 3pm
[22:38] <mpt> anyway, toodle pip
[22:39] <snwh> All the way over here in Canada it's only 639pm
[22:40] <me4oslav> 1.40 AM ... had 4 coffees today, can't sleep ... oh well, I can always start work bit later tmrw :)
[22:42] <snwh> me4oslav, indeed you can
[22:43] <snwh> that sounds like my usual coffee consumption
[22:44] <me4oslav> So, that's what the secret about the mockups is :D
[23:22] <snwh> me4oslav, how to you like these circles? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/status-spheres-screenshot2.png
[23:24] <me4oslav> snwh - circlesepcion on invisible :P
[23:24] <snwh> easy to do in inkscape
[23:25] <snwh> i thought of an infinity symbol for busy
[23:26] <me4oslav> let's steal Skype's - tick on a grey circle and see what happens
[23:27] <me4oslav> BTW, after those two are done (Dash in System Settings and messaging menu icons) mind mocking up a sound menu design, I have in on pen ana paper (better than the last ones you've seen), I just suck at mockups.
[23:29] <snwh> not a problem
[23:30] <me4oslav> AWESOME. I will go to bed now (just to lie down and read some bizarre fiction), obviously I won't be able to sleep :D