[10:20] <mpt> snwh, when you're back, I have some news about the Dash settings
[13:04] <snwh> mpt, good news I hope :)
[13:23] <mpt> snwh, do you remember yesterday how I asked you if you'd talked with didrocks?
[13:23] <snwh> mpt, I do
[13:24] <mpt> snwh, and do you remember how I said I wasn't involved in Unity directly?
[13:24] <mpt> snwh, well, we had a bit of a mix-up
[13:25] <mpt> snwh, pattoin here is a designer at Canonical who has been working on a quick fix for 12.10 for didrocks to implement.
[13:25] <mpt> Yesterday and today.
[13:26] <mpt> She didn't know about your work, and I didn't know about hers. :-]
[13:26] <snwh> okay :)
[13:26] <mpt> I showed her your work this morning, and we're interested in developing it further for 13.04
[13:27] <snwh> That's awesome.
[13:27] <mpt> Meanwhile, here's the design work pattoin has done for 12.10: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/presentation/d/1wcFF2Kl156c_9qmD2fCsYzO4700vuJ4T3EJ1nN9wdU4/edit?pli=1#slide=id.g2e54c4f8_2_10
[13:28] <snwh> Very nice
[13:29] <snwh> Privacy I would imagine is a more logical place to put it over the Appearance; it's not strictly an appearance setting or behaviour
[13:31] <snwh> also, mpt, I did a couple things with messaging icons: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/messaging-menu-ambiance.png & https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/messaging-menu-radiance.png
[13:31] <pattoin> snwh: Hi
[13:31] <pattoin> snwh: I am Patricia, or pattoin in here
[13:32] <snwh> pattoin, Hi, I'm Sam
[13:32] <pattoin> mpt: has told me about you and the situation
[13:33] <pattoin> snwh: thank you with your design help, it is great to meet you so we could discusse and work together
[13:33] <snwh> pattoin, thanks & likewise :)
[13:34] <snwh> I thought it was something within my abilities that I could try and contribute to the project.
[13:36] <pattoin> snwh: yes, I have to design it quicly just yesterday and the reason why I include appeareance is because I did a quick user research and test and  some more people will change it in 'appereance'
[13:36] <snwh> users are interesting folks
[13:36] <pattoin> they were thinking about hiding ui
[13:38] <pattoin> but the more people understand what it really means, then they will go for privacy
[13:39] <snwh> I guess less familiar users will go for the former, whereas everyone else who somewhat understands it will pick privacy
[13:40] <pattoin> snwh: indeed
[13:42] <pattoin> anyway we can continue designing it, with your ideas for the next cycle and we have also some discussion to give a more relevant access to 'search results settings'
[13:43] <pattoin> and also that the functionality of disable online content sources can be done in the dash UI itself
[13:43] <pattoin> what do you think?
[13:43] <snwh> I look forward to it :)
[13:44] <pattoin> a lot of people when I did the small user test they thought they can just swith it off from the dash itself next to the title
[13:46] <snwh> how would that be implemented?
[13:49] <snwh> Since we already drag and drop to trash, perhaps a similar action as well.
[13:50] <snwh> drag and drop lenses from the dash
[15:22] <snwh> mpt, what if the messaging menu used the status icon and the envelope appeared as an overlay? like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-icon1.png
[15:23] <mpt> snwh, it's quite difficult to tell that that envelope is an envelope
[15:24] <mpt> the dot and the envelope are really fighting for space, in a way that they aren't if the roles are reversed
[15:25] <snwh> but with the dot the envelope will only appear with a new message
[15:25] <mpt> Remember, too, that a lot of the time -- possibly most of the time, once bug 1056457 is fixed -- there will be no dot
[15:26] <mpt> because by default you'll have no chat accounts, therefore no chat status
[15:26] <snwh> then it could just be the old envelope
[15:26] <snwh> which could also be the offline/quit icon?
[15:26] <mpt> An envelope that shrinks and moves whenever you go online?
[15:27] <snwh> no envelope
[15:27] <snwh> just the blue one
[15:27] <snwh> as a "popup"
[15:27] <snwh> overlay* on new message
[15:27] <snwh> and only an envelope with no chat app or offline.
[15:28] <mpt> You have new messages, therefore a blue envelope. You open the menu and change from Offline to Available. The blue envelope shuffles and shrinks to make way for the Available icon.
[15:28] <mpt> Is that what you meant?
[15:29] <snwh> this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-icon2.png
[15:29] <snwh> then https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-icon1.png for a new message
[15:30] <snwh> and https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/alternate-message-icon3.png for offline/no chat app
[15:31] <snwh> the only time a double icon would occur would be a chat status + a new message
[15:31] <snwh> is what i was thinking
[15:32] <mpt> What would it look like if you were offline but had new messages?
[15:32] <snwh> blue envelope
[15:32] <mpt> So, the blue envelope would be shuffling and shrinking in the scenario I described
[15:33] <mpt> That seems weird to me, since it wouldn't be the fact that you have new messages that was changing.
[15:34] <snwh> i dont understand what you mean by "shuffling and shrinking"
[15:34] <mpt> Changing from its full size, into an emblem perched at the top right of the green dot.
[15:35] <snwh> okay
[15:35] <snwh> what if a new "new message" emblem were created?
[15:35] <mpt> That could solve the problem of the envelope being hard to recognize at small sizes.
[15:36] <mpt> I don't know what the rest of the icon would look like if you had no chat accounts.
[15:37] <snwh> could keep the white envelope
[15:37] <snwh> and use the new emblem
[15:37] <snwh> so it'll be all the chat icons, plus an envelope for no chat and a new message emblem across all
[15:39] <snwh> a number badge probably would be too small
[15:39] <mpt> snwh, perhaps the easiest way to visualize the change you're thinking of would be to sketch a replacement for the grid of icons at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu#Title>.
[15:40] <mpt> That way you could see all the possibilities at once, and the possible transitions involved.
[15:41] <snwh> okay
[15:41] <snwh> any thoughts on the alternate chat icons?
[15:42] <mpt> They improve on the current ones in that they're the same visual weight. The drawback is that they're harder to distinguish, especially for people with color impairments.
[15:45] <snwh> thats why there are symbols on the icons
[15:45] <mpt> yes
[15:45] <snwh> i mean i put symbols on them.
[15:45] <snwh> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/messaging-menu-ambiance.png
[15:47] <snwh> i even colour tweaked the screenshots to see if an impairment would make the symbols indistinguishable
[16:23] <snwh> mpt is the width of the indicator fixed?
[16:24] <mpt> snwh, no, different menus have different widths (e.g. the battery icons are wider), but it's probably best if all the title icons for the same menu are the same width.
[16:24] <mpt> That might involve adding/removing a little spacing
[16:25] <snwh> can it fluxuate?
[16:25] <mpt> It can, but as I said, it's probably best if it doesn't
[16:26] <mpt> otherwise things would wobble
[16:26] <mpt> (specially, menus to the left of that one)
[16:26] <snwh> unless it was always furthest left
[16:26] <snwh> but yea i agree
[16:27] <snwh> i was trialing a two icon thing. and it just shrunk to fit in the indicator
[16:28] <snwh> an icon with chat status icon + new mail icon @16x34px and just the chat icon at 16x16
[16:29] <snwh> unless the mail icon was always present. and the indicator had two icons, is that possible?
[16:30] <snwh> changing icons*
[16:41] <snwh> mpt, may i suggest this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/screenshot1.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/screenshot2.png
[16:42] <mpt> snwh, promising
[16:42] <mpt> I like that it dramatically reduces the amount of blue
[16:42] <mpt> (our blue is pretty fluorescent)
[16:42] <snwh> it really is
[16:43] <snwh> i had the mail icon there first, but thought to make it simpler
[16:43] <mpt> On the other hand, it still has the wobble, though maybe that's a feature rather than a bug
[16:43] <mpt> a slight animation to draw your attention
[16:43] <snwh> exactly
[16:43] <snwh> changes from 22px wide to 23
[16:44] <snwh> if i remove a px from the right edge it wouldnt wobble
[16:44] <snwh> but like you said: it adds slight animation
[17:29] <snwh> mpt, critique? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/screenshot-ambiance.png https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7027392/screenshot-radiance.png
[17:46] <snwh> ..or sabdfl? :)
[20:56] <sabdfl> snwh, don't like it not being an envelope
[20:56] <sabdfl> we didn't have online state
[20:56] <sabdfl> so just because we CAN add it for non-colour blind people
[20:56] <sabdfl> doesn't mean we have to make the iconography cryptic
[20:57] <sabdfl> please let's keep the basic envelope
[20:57] <sabdfl> at most, open the envelope when it's in the "action" state
[20:57] <sabdfl> and use the colour
[20:57] <sabdfl> but
[20:57] <sabdfl> "normal" (i.e. connected) should be plain mono white-ish
[20:57] <sabdfl> i.e. do not show a colour when in the normal active state
[20:58] <sabdfl> and just darken it slightly when NOT connected
[20:58] <sabdfl> don't be garish
[20:58] <sabdfl> i want my indicators plain when all is normal
[20:58] <sabdfl> no colour by default
[20:58] <sabdfl> ok?
[21:05] <snwh> sabdfl, no problem just an idea.
[22:08] <snwh> sabdfl, what is the plan for the icons?