gebbionehi all, for some reason my drop down and right click menus are not showing in my ubuntu00:02
gebbioneanyone has an idea why this might happen? for instance when i right click nothing happens/shows up and when i click on an application dropdown (lets say conf options) that drop down options dont show up00:04
popeywhat you do?00:55
Azelphurpopey: I went nuts and put 30ml of ink in the 5ml cartridge00:56
popeyso it was out of ink?00:56
AzelphurI used an entire bottle of that stuff, haha00:56
popeyschoolboy error00:56
Azelphurapparently it was very out of ink00:56
popeysurely you ended up wearing it all?00:56
Azelphurthink I'm gonna buy one of these though http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250ml-Universal-Compatible-Dye-Black-Bulk-Ink-CISS-Inkjet-Refilling-bottle-/220965052722?pt=UK_Computing_Ink_Refills_Kits&hash=item33728b2132#ht_991wt_116500:57
AzelphurI've gotta replace my dads 30ml bottle I nicked, and I wouldn't mind some refills for myself00:57
AzelphurI literally emptied the entire bottle and just when it was on the last dregs the cartridge overflowed, so that's when I stopped lol00:58
popeybig cartridge00:58
popeymaybe I didnt put enough in mine00:58
Azelphurindeed, it's only supposed to do 5ml00:58
popeycool story bro00:58
Azelphurnn :D00:59
ali1234i suspect air pockets01:03
Azelphurit puts big splodges on the paper now sometimes01:04
Azelphurbut I imagine that'll go away01:04
ali1234when you;ve used about 25ml of ink, probably01:04
Azelphur30, yea xD01:04
Azelphurit's a 30ml bottle and I drained it lol01:04
ali1234if that guys does it i will be amazed01:08
Azelphurindeed o.O01:10
=== TheOpenSourcerer is now known as theopensourcerer
diploMorning all07:09
christelmorning diplo, everyone :)07:23
brobostigongood morning everyone.07:49
matttmorning brobostigon07:52
matttmorning diplo, chistel07:52
brobostigonmorning mattt07:52
christelhiya mattt07:53
brobostigonmorning christel07:53
christelbrobostigon \o07:53
brobostigonchristel o/07:53
diploGot an odd issue, my terminal keeps disconnecting from my irssi host with broken pipe after about a minute or two08:08
diploWorks fine with putty under windows and my box at home08:11
=== schwukz_away is now known as schwuk
JamesTaitGood morning all! :)08:28
christelJamesTait: \o/08:29
* JamesTait hugs christel08:29
=== NET||abu1e is now known as NET||abuse
christelhugs \o/08:33
christeltjenare bittin^work :)08:52
bittin^worktjena christel08:52
bittin^workhttp://albaux.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-12-10-New-default-Wallpaper-329140735 :D08:53
=== darren is now known as darren-meeting
czajkowskidiplo: that only ever hapens me after about an hour of not even going near my machine09:18
diploMines within a few mins, only started happening a few days ago09:18
diploNot sure how to find out whats happening09:18
Laneyis this a new thing?09:18
Laneytry putting a ServerAliveInterval in .ssh/config09:19
diploI ssh to my vps and run byobu, everyday since i installed 12.0409:19
diplokk, think it's there already09:19
diploHmm, maybe didn't readd it after reinstall09:20
diploWill try that now09:20
diploOK, connected via precise again09:29
diploLet's x fingers :P09:29
diploI guess I could log via config to a file and see what happens09:33
Laneyanyone know what slots VM do for engineer appointments?10:01
LaneyI have one this afternoon but no clue what time he's supposed to be coming10:01
diploNo idea sorry, my company would never foot the bill for that :D10:04
davmor2Morning all10:05
diploMorning davmor210:15
davmor2hey diplo10:15
diploHad a play with django last night, bit of a pita but does look good10:15
Laneyaha, he's coming now10:24
darren-meetingmaxp, ping10:25
davmor2diplo: the only issue I had running the tutorial from the site was that the admin section refused to display in w3m10:26
davmor2hey bigcalm 'Ow am yam dude10:31
bigcalmdavmor2: Morning. Wondering if I'll ever get enough sleep at night not to be knackered by 11:30. How's you?10:32
bigcalmDoh, really should reboot this server10:32
diploCan you load in a normal browser davmor2 ?10:33
davmor2bigcalm: pretty much the same, but I've decided it's Wednesday it's crap weather outside we all need a great day, make it so popey (and don't give me none of that I can't do that)10:33
diploIf not that's url.py needs amending10:33
bigcalmpopey is a weather man?10:34
davmor2diplo: I was in a closed lxc container so I can play with it to open the lxc container up, but just couldn't be bothered last night :)10:34
diploheh, I felt the same, this was 11-m +10:34
bigcalmBack in a bit (hopefully)10:34
davmor2bigcalm: no not the weather, but I'm sure he can make everyones life full of joy joy10:35
christelhttp://pastebin.com/sfiSihzX anyone local-ish fancy going to thaaat10:35
bittin^workchristel, when is it?10:36
bittin^workfound it iam blind10:36
bittin^worksadly not when iam in the UK =(10:37
bigcalmchristel: why the sad?10:37
elfymight manage to get to one of them10:40
davmor2christel: erm no :(10:43
christeldavmor2: FINE, you suck.10:43
elfynew milton one is about 5 miles from me10:44
andrewsHello all10:44
elfyhello andrews10:44
bigcalmWould somebody please stop drinking my coffee?10:44
andrewsCan I ask if there are any iMac users in here who might be able to help with a bluetooth keyboard problem I am having?  (not ubuntu I know though ive found people in here know their stuff generally!)10:45
davmor2bigcalm: go take a look in the mirror, see that bloke looking back at you, I bet it's him10:46
bigcalmDamn that man10:47
Laneythe man fixed my internets10:47
davmor2Laney: woohoo how were you on the internets before10:48
Laneywell, it worked but was just crappy10:48
Laneyhe attached a forward path attenuator (whatever that is), and it's rainbows and unicorns now10:48
daubersooooh... one in Newbury10:52
matttwhat's in newbury10:53
daubersthat thing that christel was banding around10:54
christelit looks like it could be quite fun :)10:54
christel(they had me at "are you sci-curious?" tbf)10:54
matttoh yeah, heard about that from the readinggeek folks10:55
bittin^workchristel, hows norway?10:56
christelno idea :o10:57
christel(i moved away in 98)10:57
davmor2christel: only a couple of weeks ago then10:58
bittin^workwhy did i think you was from norway then o:?10:58
mungojerryguy on the train today was lamenting the crap quality control on his £529 iphone 511:00
mungojerrythe casing was all dented and flaky11:01
mungojerryi lol'd quietly11:01
davmor2mungojerry: I wouldn't of I'd of got my SGS3 out and gone look at the shiny :D11:01
popeymungojerry, thats _one_ reason I'm not upgrading11:02
popeyI like the glass front and back11:02
popey4s is rock solid11:02
marxjohnsonI like my unibody aluminium HTC Legend, hard as nails11:05
marxjohnsonjust a pain it's stuck on Android 2.x11:05
popeymarxjohnson, tried any games yet?11:11
mungojerrypopey, my iphone 5 doesn't have that problem: http://ubuntuone.com/5AVzrvnmz9WoRWiWXxnmOS11:13
popeythats ace11:14
popeytime to eat and be entertained by Stephen Colbert and John Stewart11:15
popeywhilst simultaneously confirming bugs \o/11:15
mungojerrypopey, got a bug for you :D11:15
bittin^workmungojerry, :D11:16
marxjohnsonpopey: not yet, I'm at work, might give one a go over lunch11:16
marxjohnsonI did buy Nikki and the Robots11:16
mungojerrypopey, interesetd to know your thoughts on bug 986676 . it affects libgphoto2 and a very popular camera model. there is a patch which works, but i don't know why it hasn't been patched11:17
lubotu3Launchpad bug 986676 in libgphoto2 (Ubuntu) "Shotwell does not show thumbnails for images on "Mass Storage Camera"" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/98667611:17
christelbittin^work: i am! i just haven't lived in norway for a long long time :P11:19
bittin^workchristel, ah i see11:20
popeymarxjohnson, wonder if you were the 500th purchaser, they're 503 now, was 499 this morning11:22
bittin^workthat looks cool11:24
popeymungojerry, looks like an upstream bug?11:24
bittin^workmight buy that tommorow when i have money =)11:25
bittin^worki love oldschool platformers <311:25
bittin^workand i even meet the guys who did the trailer music :D11:27
bittin^workso gonna buy it for sure11:27
LaneyI totally failed to find any extra batteries on the first two levels11:28
Laneyother than the obvious ones11:28
popeyi do love that game11:28
bittin^workiam still at work, will buy it when i get home :D11:28
popeythey have a (very quiet) irc channel here #nikki :)11:28
bittin^workwhats the minimum you can pay?11:30
bittin^work1 EUR?11:30
bittin^workyepp 1 EUR for steam keys11:31
bittin^workbought that game now, for my last money until tommorow :P11:32
bittin^workfor 2 EUR11:32
bittin^worki was #504 :(11:38
bittin^worknot that that is a cool number11:38
bittin^work:( my work PC was to shit for playing it so need to wait until i get home11:39
bittin^workIntel GMA 460 ftl :<11:39
popeyreally? plays fine on my crummy intel box even at 1080p11:39
bittin^workbut it works better on my GTX 560 at home11:40
popeyoh, 46011:40
bittin^workor whatever this box uses11:40
bittin^workold HP Compaq 6910p11:40
bittin^worklaptop but maybe your suppose to work at work and not play platform games11:41
mungojerrywhich game are we talking about?12:03
davmor2mungojerry: Nikki and the Robots12:04
mungojerrysound like an 80s band12:11
popeythe music is retro 8-bit chiptune style12:12
mungojerryi'm in an open plan office but i'm imagining the music blip blop blip as i watch the trailer12:13
bittin^workheadphones is a nice thing12:14
pinky-Black Mesa Source (HalfLife) is a good free game, but it's for winblows only. http://www.blackmesasource.com/download.html12:23
bittin^workpinky-, yeah started to play that =)12:23
pinky-yeah I grabbed it couple of weeks ago too12:24
marxjohnsonSource engine games work pretty well under Wine IME12:28
pinky-good good12:29
marxjohnsonI'll have to give it a go12:30
pinky-yesterday on the NewsGroups I found a new steam free version which is 2gb bigger insize, so grabbing now also12:31
pinky-still downloading now12:31
popeyblack mesa is free?12:34
popeydidnt know that12:34
pinky-popey, yes12:34
popeyneat, will boot my windows box up and get it :)12:34
Mezyep... free as long as you have something based on source engine (TF2 counts)12:34
pinky-it's a good game too12:34
popeyi have the orange box12:34
bigcalmpopey: it's well worth the time and effort to boot into windows. Very enjoyable12:43
bigcalmI just bought the Humble Bundle 6. This is while I have 2 domains that need renewing12:44
mungojerryis it HL1 graphics?12:44
bigcalmmungojerry: no, hl2 graphics12:44
mungojerryoh sweet12:44
bigcalmmungojerry: this is the whole point12:44
bigcalmPlus extra story12:44
MezI bought HB6 aaaagggeesss ago ... get with the program bigcalm12:44
bigcalmNew music, new voice actors12:44
bigcalmMez: call me lazy, I just don't have much time to play games12:45
mungojerrywhen's it coming to linux?12:45
Mezlazy: There's ALWAYS time to play games.12:45
bittin^workwhenever Steam and Source gets ported =)12:45
bittin^workbought HIB6 aswell, got the extra games yesterday only 1 i did not have already lol12:45
bigcalmI was surprised that Black Mesa isn't available via Steam. Considering it was in their Green Light programme12:46
bittin^workbigcalm, they will accept some more green light stuff next month12:46
bittin^workyea whould be nice to have it native on steam12:47
bigcalmI had to download it from a very slow mirror over more than 1 day :(12:47
bittin^worki took the torrent took me like 7-8h when it was released :D12:48
bigcalmThe torrent never worked for me12:48
Mezhttp://www.steamcalculator.com/id/mezzle/uk <-- actually scared @ seeing that total :(12:49
mungojerrywill it eventually work on linux?12:49
Leckeywow Mez12:49
Leckeythink of what you could of bought instead!12:49
diploLeckey: Look at directhex's12:50
MezLeckey: could have :P12:50
diploWish I had the money to spend on games :(12:50
MezLeckey: and most of them are from indie bundles etc. Or when they were on sale.12:50
directhexsteamcalculator lies12:50
MezSteam Caclculator is the *current* price.12:50
diploSo you tell your wife :P12:51
directhexit shows full-price titles, and for games only available in a bundle, it shows the bundle price as the game price12:51
diploSaints Row: The Third I own that ?12:51
bittin^workdiplo, maybe there becouse of the free weekend last weekend and your account has not synced yet12:51
directhexe.g. it shows GTA1 as £2012:51
directhexbut GTA1 is free12:51
bittin^workdirecthex, not on Steam but on Rockstars website it is12:52
directhexor dungeon siege 1 for £23, it's only available in a bundle with DS312:52
diploWill look when I get home :)12:52
bittin^workhere is my old account somone hacked http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/bittin when i was like 14-15 :( and dumb enough to accept a trojan12:52
bittin^workso thats why i got http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/bittin1 now :p12:52
bittin^worka 112:52
Mezbittin^work: why not recover your old account ?12:53
bittin^workMez, becouse i dont remember that email and stuff12:53
bigcalmWhen you were 14-15? bittin^work, how old are you now?12:53
bittin^workbecouse hacker changed that too :p12:53
bittin^workSteam member since: 2003-09-1312:53
bittin^workSteam member since: 2005-10-26 and have more games etc at the new account anyways :p12:54
MezSteam member since: 2005-08-08 <-- :)12:54
bittin^workbut if i could get my old account back from the hacker i would not mind12:54
diploSteam member since: 2003-09-1412:55
bittin^workbut it was hacked in 2004 and i dont remember what email and stuff i used i think guy changed that aswell12:55
bigcalmI joined in November 2004. I wonder what was released back then to make me join12:55
bigcalmhl2 maybe?12:55
diploProbably, I used to play day of defeat, probably upgraded with steam12:55
Leckeynot very accurate12:55
Leckeysince condition zero deleted scenes, pretty sure is not 99$12:56
Leckeynor did i even buy it?!12:56
diploNo, defo don't have saints row as an option, forgot i installed steam on work laptop12:56
LeckeyI'm pretty depressed that I have 760.6 hrs on Football Manager12:57
daubersHmm... when did Ubuntu change to biosdevname?12:57
bigcalmHalf-Life 2 Release Date: 16 Nov 2004 - I was right :)12:58
diploFor 12.10 isn't it daubers, was on the server mailing list a weeks ago/ month ago12:58
diploSaying it was going live12:58
diploa few*12:58
daubersdiplo: Ah, must have missed that! Just noticed all my ports are labelled differently :) No matter. I have a script somewhere that'll fix it12:59
diploPart of the talk about it, was a more recent one13:02
daubersdiplo: Yeah, google just found me that, it's not an issue as I modify the udev rules anyway so have something that can easily make stuff work again13:03
daubersdiplo: I'm obviously a little out of touch at the moment!13:04
diploheh, I'm not that in touch, just remember seeing the email. We dont use ubuntu at work apart from me so it's not something I look out for that much13:04
daubersWhat I'd really really love is for someone to impliment geolocation based profiling for my user profiles13:05
daubersi.e. thunderbird uses my work accounts at work, and home accounts at home13:06
daubersthat would be superfun13:06
diploSounds good, get coding :P13:07
daubersdiplo: It's on my list of projects I'd like to do when I have time :)13:07
diplohah, good luck.. rarely seem to have time for anything13:08
daubersdiplo: The list is 6 A$ pages long now.... almost got my MQTT-S stuff working \o/13:09
daubersA4 even13:09
diplo:D - Do you spend much time with the missus?13:10
daubersdiplo: Yep! Just having to adjust my sleeping hours to get stuff done13:10
diploNo kids yet then13:10
daubersNope :)13:11
* popey says nice things to Laney and points him at https://bugs.launchpad.net/nikki/+bug/105683213:11
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 1056832 in Nikki and the Robots "Create a .deb package for convenience" [Wishlist,New]13:11
popeyLaney, I'll donate a beer token to the charity of your choice if you package that :)13:13
penguin42wow, a game written in haskell13:14
Mezpopey: does it comply with DFSG (and possibly more importantly) FHS?13:14
popeythere has already been two attempts to get it into debian13:17
popeywhich have stalled13:17
DavieyThe licencing looks ok, but it seems to bundle stuff.. which is less than cool.13:18
bittin^worki did not get any steam key even if it said i would if i paied 1€ or more13:21
bittin^workah well13:21
=== NimChimpsky is now known as RadiumCat
Laneypopey: there already is one13:24
LaneyI swear I linked it the other day13:25
popeyone what? package?13:25
Laneyit's just not uploaded yet13:25
Laneythere's some bug they're trying to work out or something13:25
Laneyit's how I'm playing it :-)13:25
popeylink me up!13:25
LaneyI uploaded haskell-sfml-audio to Quantal yesterday or Monday in preparation for that actually13:26
bittin^workah its coded in haskell cool13:26
awilkinsAnyone know a whois service that doesn't use the searches to steal the domain you just searched for?13:27
popeyhow can anyone know that? :)13:27
awilkinsPersonal experience?13:27
bittin^workwhois in your shell ?13:27
popeyI don't know, who is in my shell?13:28
popeyGhost in the shell?13:28
bittin^workwhois in MR gnu-tools13:28
* awilkins is working on a machine called "Motoko" ; irony13:28
bittin^workor if its bsd-tools13:28
bittin^workmy machine is called martins-laptop13:28
bittin^workhaven't named it something cool yet13:28
awilkinsBah, GoDaddy have the domain I want until 15th decemeber13:28
awilkinsGitS == Ghost in the Shell. Spooky amount of confluence here13:29
bittin^workand my boxes at home is called WINEDOWS4 and cindy13:29
awilkinsI think I searched whois for it... about 15th Dec 2011... strange coincidence13:29
awilkinsThat's the day they registered it. Dogs.13:30
awilkins"Domains By Proxy, LLC" otherwise known as "The front company that GoDaddy uses to domain-jack you."13:30
bittin^workand iam turning of Windows 8 and Debian and going home, cya13:31
mungojerrydo domain squatters generally renew their domains after squatting on them for 2 years with no bids?13:45
mungojerrya domain i wanted expired and i wasn't able to buy it on expiry day cos a quatter nicked it13:46
awilkinsI'm about to find out if they abandon them after a year in December13:46
awilkinsI have a calendar appointment set to register it on that day13:46
mungojerrynow they want "22913:46
mungojerryawilkins, i think you need to sign up with a company to nail it for you13:46
mungojerryunless you run your own script13:47
mungojerrythe whole thing is a swindle13:47
awilkinsIt was weird enough that my search for it was the first thing that caused it to be created13:47
awilkinsSilly me, using GoDaddy as a whois13:47
awilkins"OOh, a domain someone wants! *squat*"13:48
mungojerrymy one was swuashed by sedo :S13:49
mungojerry"SEDO.COM has been accused by some U.S. companies of trademark infringement, and cyber-squatting .."13:50
awilkinsJust used their search to look for a domain that insults them. We13:52
awilkinsshall see if they register it and put one of their parking websites on it soon.13:52
mungojerrygone are the days when an average Joe could register hotmail.com when MS forgot to renew it13:52
AlanBellsilly barcode reader13:53
penguin42AlanBell: ?13:57
AlanBellwas messing with a barcode reader, they act as a keyboard and I zapped a barcode for HDD113:58
bigcalmCan barcodes do utf8?13:59
AlanBellsome types14:00
AlanBellsome can't even do lower case14:00
* davmor2 loves the fact that barcodes all include the number 666 :D14:00
penguin42davmor2: Now there is something I didn't know ?14:01
davmor2penguin42: the double bar that is longer at the start the middle and the end are all 6's14:02
AlanBellcode39 just starts and ends with *14:02
penguin42davmor2: Ah, so not actually a run of 3 6's in a row14:04
AlanBellthat is the EAN barcodes, like this bag of wasabi peas which is 506003601215114:05
AlanBellthe reader misses out those double bars14:05
penguin42AlanBell: Humdinger wasabi peas from Asda?14:07
davmor2AlanBell: they are positional markers that are looked for by the scanner, the barcode marker just happened to choose the same bar structure as a six14:08
AlanBellpenguin42: yup!14:08
penguin42AlanBell: google's search for stuff like that is quite neat14:09
awilkinsWhat colour are those wasabi peas? Green, or yellow?14:09
awilkinsShame, they do that by dying them with blue and yellow dye14:09
awilkinsI like Whitworths Wasabi Bean Mix14:09
awilkinsNo colours14:09
awilkinsUsed to mess with barcode readers a bit14:10
awilkinsTHe one we had, had a booklet of barcodes you used to configure it14:10
awilkinsDidn't do the 2D barcodes though14:11
AlanBellyeah, same as this one14:11
awilkinsAlthough you can do those with just a webcam now14:11
AlanBellI just got a cheap and nasty handheld optical scanner14:11
awilkinsBarcoded mailmerge letters14:11
awilkinsQuicker for the office admin staff to process14:11
penguin42the scanners still seem to be way faster than anything camera/software based14:13
Mezbarcode scanners are fun - though integrating them with web based systems - not so much fun :)14:14
Mez(espescially when they're all configured to do <barcode input><enter>14:14
Mez(when you want a tab)14:15
AlanBellMez: that bit is reconfigurable with the manual14:15
MezAlanBell: sometimes you want an enter, sometimes you want a tab.14:15
MezSo you have to assume enter - and then capture it when you want something with multiple scans14:15
MartijnVdSWe used barcodes + a web app when sending ADSL modems 10 years ago :)14:16
MartijnVdSthat was a _cool_ app to write back then14:16
Mezmy experience is from a full warehouse inventory system (from goods coming through the door to being shipped out to customers and all the bits inbetween)14:17
AlanBellyeah, you need to scan three barcodes to change to barcode<tab> and 14:17
MartijnVdSAlanBell: but then it's always <tab> while sometimes it has to be <enter>14:17
MartijnVdSand you can't reconfigure on the fly14:18
MartijnVdSwell you can but it's a lot of work :)14:18
AlanBellwell you can, but reconfiguring on the fly means scanning 3 codes to change14:18
MezAlanBell: which is a pain, and requires users not to be idiots and known when to scan those codes.14:18
diploI had to integrate my scanners/printers with SAP14:26
diploIt was horrible :(14:26
Dave2I don't even really know what SAP is but I'm sure I could've told you that14:28
diploOne of the biggest software companies out there14:29
diplopopey loves it14:30
=== Guest74141 is now known as RadiumCat
Dave2I know of SAP, I just don't really know what it is14:30
Dave2Other than Expensive and It Does Stuff14:31
AlanBellit is a bit like OpenERP, but bigger14:31
Dave2also Enterprise14:31
diploAnd stupider and sh**14:31
diploand stuff14:31
diploTo explain how bad, empty oracle install without our data was 120GB!!!14:31
mungojerryi'm trying to remember if i bought a particular album already (on CD) ...it's proving difficult14:31
MartijnVdSdiplo: wut14:31
diployah, stupid :)14:32
MartijnVdSmungojerry: Alzheimer's Lite?14:32
mungojerryi think i forgot to rip it, and consequently unsure if i own it14:32
Laneyyou don't have a sorted CD collection?14:32
Laneysorted by genre, then artist, then year of course14:32
mungojerryi have a flight box sorted by artist14:32
mungojerrybut sometimes they don't get added to the box14:32
mungojerryand worse still, a lot of bands don't even write the name of the band or album on the cd14:33
mungojerryno distinguishing marks14:33
MartijnVdSmungojerry: you don't keep the boxes?!14:33
MartijnVdSjewel cases14:33
* davmor2 is looking forward to the simple pleasures of Sausage Egg and Chips for tea hmmmmmmmmm14:33
mungojerrynot even space14:33
mungojerrynot enough space to store cds and boxes, just the CDs in this case http://www.maplin.co.uk/500-cd-dvd-storage-case-22096814:35
bigcalmHow do people serve their music collections to all devices in a house these days?14:41
einonmbigcalm: my synology NAS does a brilliant job of that14:42
bigcalmI'd love my cable box to hook into a music collection as well. Guessing that's not going to happen any time soon14:43
einonma lot of devices are getting DLNA added these days, including STBs. It's a shame that DLNA is a bit pants14:44
MartijnVdSthe protocol is *SHUDDER*14:45
MartijnVdShowever, it does work.14:45
MartijnVdSsort of.14:45
* MartijnVdS pets his Synology NAS14:45
MartijnVdSmy preciousss14:45
einonmA cheap 2nd hand PS3 also does the job for watching films/music/piccies on the TV14:46
awilkinsI have an ancient Sempron box running MythTV14:47
awilkinsBut for music I just carry storage devices around and sync them when they meet14:47
awilkins32GB USB drive, my external backup drive, and the MythTV server14:47
* penguin42 must get a piece of cat5 downstairs to the other tv14:48
awilkinsNot entered the HD era as yet14:48
MartijnVdS802.11n @ 5GHz :)14:48
awilkinsStill have an old SD CRT TV14:48
penguin42awilkins: Yeh me too up here14:48
awilkinsMythTV box would probably have a minor fit if you asked it to do HD14:48
penguin42awilkins: I think the biggest thing stopping me replacing it is the effort of moving it14:48
awilkins50Kg, nearly ruptured self putting it on stand14:49
awilkinsProbably not strong enough to move it now, it was over 10 years ago14:49
penguin42awilkins: and it's on the 1st floor...14:50
awilkinsOh great. Rain14:50
awilkinsWe had a single burst of lightning earlier. That was fun.14:51
awilkinsI can feel the pressure change challenging my sinuses14:51
awilkinsAs a nation we really should investigate the feasibility of powering things with rain (yes, I know, hydroelectric)14:51
penguin42awilkins: It's hardly stopped for the last few days here - we had a clear few hours earlier14:53
MartijnVdSOr sea-foam power14:58
pinky-nutrient rich14:58
Laneylooks awesome15:04
SuperEngineerhonest guv, it wasn't me!  http://idle.slashdot.org/story/12/09/26/0526231/linux-forcibly-installed-on-congressmans-computer-in-act-of-terrorism?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%2915:04
diploLaney: looks pants to me :)15:05
popeyHTTP Error 503 (Service Unavailable):15:20
Laneypopey: on my link?15:21
awilkins>-<   ; just discover we pay someone to write, and continue to maintain... a bulletin board system15:21
awilkinsI mean... huh?!?!?15:22
awilkinsYou can download BBS software for nowt all over the web15:22
awilkinsOur project management system (Redmine) even has one built in15:22
awilkinsAnd they PAY SOMEONE TO WRITE ONE15:22
awilkinsAnd surprise, it's rather primitive and lacking in the modern conveniences I'd expect from a BBS15:23
awilkinsAnd this is why the government can't have nice things15:23
diploSounds like most companies awilkins15:23
awilkinsOh yes, been both sides of the public / private partnership fence15:24
awilkinsSame stupid dross, different office address15:24
awilkinsPar example ; "Hey, yeah, we considered OpenID for our web single sign on.. and then we paid three developers for 6 months to roll our own in C#. You can use anything you like with it, as long as that's .NET too."15:26
* awilkins facepalms15:27
* MartijnVdS headdesks15:27
awilkinsI've not seen the source code for it yet15:27
awilkinsI would not be surprised if I reviewed it and find it commits one or more cardinal sins of insecurity15:27
awilkinsTop suspects ; - passwords stored with [no|reversible] encryption - passwords hashed without salt - invented own cryptographic primitives15:28
* Laney footdoors15:29
awilkinsBut those are just the semi-intelligent guesses15:29
awilkinsThere is, like in D&D, about a 5% chance of some critical failure I've just not thought of.15:29
Leckeyyou'd be surprised how many "forward thinking" IT companies are still on the .NET bandwagon15:30
awilkinsWhen I have to write code in C#, I like it, as a language goes15:31
awilkinsFor doing GUIs, the MS tools climb up a set of stepladders and then wee all over Java from a great height.15:31
awilkinsAlthough I've not had a proper play with the new Eclipse / e4 stuff15:32
awilkinsSo I may change my opinion of that shortly15:32
Leckeything that annoys me about c#15:33
Leckeyis no native json libs15:33
awilkinshttp://json.codeplex.com/ ?15:45
bigcalmI don't know why the USC said that my graphics card wasn't up to playing Dust Force. No trouble at all and it's fun to play16:27
bigcalmdavmor2: fix USC16:28
davmor2bigcalm: because the tag has a limit that you're card didn't meet, it doesn't mean it won't run, it is more a warning that it might not be optimal16:29
bigcalmdavmor2: I think you've told me this before :)16:30
bigcalmdavmor2: but the information should be more along the lines of "it might not work, give it a go anyway :)"16:30
davmor2bigcalm: it does the but says buy/install anyway16:32
* SuperEngineer thinks that makes the score 2-0 to davmor2 16:36
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
* jacobw pokes bigcalm with the wrong stick16:54
bigcalmjacobw: that's so very wrong16:55
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
davmor2jacobw: Tis alway's morning on the T'interweb18:21
popeyubuntu sticker on her laptop :)18:40
bootlkjkgfAnything could happen in the next 90 minutes [bookmark] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/Musopen/open-source-bug-tracking18:45
popeythanks directhex18:49
davmor2directhex: nice :)18:50
ali1234canonical packaging service is only free for commercial apps right?18:50
directhexyou'd think canonical would have fixed wizorb's broken deps18:53
popeyno, free for free apps too18:53
AlanBellhttp://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/ Canonical provides this packaging service free of charge for commercial apps.18:54
davmor2ali1234: yeap commercial being free of cost/or priced, but licensed non openly,  The free apps that go in the extras repo via ARB need to be packaged separately as it integrates into the system like a normal app.18:55
AlanBellso if you close it your life is easy, if you open it you have to go through the ARB?18:55
AlanBellwow. Close it, get it packaged then open up18:56
ali1234why even bother opening it up?18:56
ali1234also plenty of these packages have problems18:57
ali1234there doesn't seem to be a way of reporting said problems18:57
ali1234at least, not a way that actually gets the problems fixed18:57
hamitronwhat is the agreement like, do you sign many rights to your own app away?18:57
davmor2ali1234: what are you on about now?18:57
ali1234you can't report bugs against the packages in launchpad because the packages are all private18:57
AlanBellyeah, that has always been an issue with things that are in the partners repo too18:57
ali1234davmor2: when i find bugs in commercial software bought from software center there is no way to report bugs against those packages18:58
ali1234especially when said packages were packaged by canonical and the bugs are package bugs18:58
AlanBelland if you do report bugs the software authors are not looking in launchpad and no ubuntu developers are looking at them because they are not in the repos18:58
ali1234yeah and the authors of the software don't know anything about packaging anyway so they can't fix it if they want to18:58
davmor2ali1234: that's because we aren't going to fix it.  We don't have access to the code.  There is a link in software-center that link to the app manufactures here are my issues page18:59
ali1234davmor2: did you even read what i wrote?18:59
ali1234what if the bug is caused by "canonical packaging service"18:59
ali1234you're not going to fix your own bugs?19:00
popeysome confusion here between commercial apps in usc and stuff in partner repo. not the same thing..19:00
AlanBelloh, ok19:01
ali1234AlanBell: you can't report bugs against USC stuff for exactly that reason19:01
ali1234well, actually you sort of can because of a bug in launchpad, unless it's been fixed19:02
davmor2AlanBell: Commercial Apps are not in repos,  ARB go in extras, Partner is companies that partner with us directly19:02
davmor2ali1234: you just do ubuntu-bug software-center19:03
AlanBellI don't appear to have any paid apps in software centre anyhow (just a few magazines, mostly in german)19:03
ali1234ok, i'll do that in future to report all packaging bugs against any software i buy...19:03
davmor2AlanBell: you on Quantal19:03
AlanBelldavmor2: yes19:03
lubotu3Ubuntu 12.10 (Quantal Quetzal) will be the 17th release of Ubuntu, Discussion and support until final release in #ubuntu+119:04
hamitronjust checking19:04
davmor2AlanBell: yeap we are in the process of testing and porting the 400+ apps at the moment, in the meantime you can do SOFTWARE_CENTER_DISTRO_CODENAME='precise'19:04
AlanBellah ok19:05
popeydavmor2, in the video John says when you buy stuff you get an email saying where to get support from.. the mail doesn't actually say that :(19:05
davmor2AlanBell: SOFTWARE_CENTER_DISTRO_CODENAME='precise' software-center  (sorry)19:05
popeyI'll speak to John about it19:06
davmor2popey: the email has a link in it for refund support19:06
AlanBelldavmor2: yes, I figured that bit out (except for the spelling of center)19:06
popeyyeah, but not how to file a bug in the game19:06
popeywhich he indicated is in there19:06
ali1234i don't want support and i don't want a refund. i want you to fix the trivial bugs so that the next million people who buy it don't have to jump through the same hoops that i did19:07
AlanBellare they all just games?19:07
popeyok captain pedant19:07
davmor2popey: no he does say there is a link to them earlier and then there is a link to us in the email19:07
popey"but not how to tell us the game is broken"19:07
davmor2AlanBell: no there loads19:08
davmor2AlanBell: planners, journals, mags, books, merge tools, a stupidly expensive minisipserver etc19:09
AlanBellwhat is the sip server called?19:09
davmor2AlanBell: it isn't released yet I don't think but will be by tomorrow unless they don't get they need to release it19:10
davmor2AlanBell: minisipserver is the name of it when it is available at a meagre $19919:12
AlanBellxeoma looks interesting19:12
davmor2AlanBell: security camera19:12
AlanBellyeah, I am just looking for things that are not games and not ebooks19:12
davmor2AlanBell: dayjournal if that is released now is quite funky, very simple but does what it say on the tin, although again that was tested today so might not be out yet19:13
ali1234wow this guy talking about flash is actually really interesting19:14
ali1234explaining how they use llvm to turn unity source into actionscript19:14
AlanBellSistema de facturacion e Inventario Akane looks interesting, but not very translated19:15
davmor2AlanBell: Yeah it's meant to be a half decent Accounty type system from what I can figure19:17
AlanBellwell having got to the end of the list I think all the high value things that I want are already Free Software19:18
AlanBellVovoid VSXu might be good19:19
davmor2AlanBell: darhon finance iirc the name is okay I can't remember if that cost anything though19:22
AlanBellyes, that looks OK, kind of a simplified gnucash from the screenshots19:23
AlanBellwhat do apple/Android do with old and useless stuff in the stores that probably doesn't work anymore and nobody cares?19:25
davmor2AlanBell: IntelliJ is meant to be a pretty good ide for java if that floats your boat19:25
ali1234AlanBell: they release a new version of their OS and all the old programs have to be ported or die19:26
ali1234a less cynical view is that they don't break their OS stable releases so it's just not a problem19:26
davmor2AlanBell: if you're into stocks and shares stocktracker is pretty good19:27
AlanBelldavmor2: yeah, I saw that one (I have no money)19:27
davmor2AlanBell: Fairmat Academic is another financy type thing19:28
AlanBelloh ok, I missed some that are closed but have no price tag19:30
* AlanBell buys fairmat academic19:31
davmor2AlanBell: long standing bug and gripe I've had that $0.00 should have install and not buy...19:32
AlanBellhad to bounce through the payment processor too19:34
AlanBellit looks a bit windows95ish19:34
AlanBellalan     26653  6.0  0.9 693408 77520 ?        Sl   20:32   0:10 mono /opt/fairmat-academic/Fairmat.exe19:35
AlanBellthat will be why then19:35
AlanBellok, so the MDI interface in this doesn't work in unity19:35
davmor2AlanBell: yeah nothing we can do about that,  it needs to set up a subscription to the ppa to allow download,   hopefully to shut popey up the login screen will go away in 13.04 but we will have to wait and see19:36
AlanBellyou can't resize the windows properly, you can minimise and maximise them, but not drag the corner19:36
AlanBellthat is going to be a bug in the toolkit, probably not the application, probably not compiz19:37
AlanBelland it just stole keyboard focus from irssi to tell me my session expired and I need to register it to carry on19:37
AlanBellpeople will leave bug reports in the reviews area ali123419:39
ali1234AlanBell: it says not to do that19:40
AlanBellthats what I was about to do, but the review window doesn't work for me19:40
AlanBell(software-center:25394): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to show 'none': Operation not supported19:40
AlanBelldavmor2: is that because I am on quantal and forcing it back to precise, or should I file a bug?19:41
AlanBellhmm, the application wants sudo access to bring up a registration page - and isn't presenting a gksudo dialog19:43
* AlanBell declines19:43
davmor2AlanBell: no it's just a gtk warning, those will be killed in the coming month or post release they are non-essential and normally no seen, it's basically just finding old bit of code that gtk3 has depreciate and complaining about it19:44
AlanBellok, I click on write your own review, a window pops up for a few seconds then goes away and that gets spat out to the terminal I launched USC from19:44
ali1234i see them all the time19:45
davmor2AlanBell: Yeah that might not work as the app technically isn't release for Quantal19:46
AlanBelldavmor2: fair enough19:47
davmor2oh well time to go down stairs night all19:48
AlanBellnight davmor219:48
popeydirecthex, what do you think would be the minimum hardware to run the unity3d GUI on? :)20:32
popey1.6GHz Atom (Revo) with ION GFX? :)20:32
directhexsure. depending on the complexity of your project20:33
popeytakes _minutes_ to startup20:33
czajkowskidear pasta cook faster the rest of dinner is cooked20:41
dogmatic69anyone know how I can open a .tar file?20:41
penguin42tar -xvf file.tar20:42
penguin42extracts it20:42
penguin42there are a few gui things that will let you browse it etc if that's your thing20:42
dogmatic69damn amateur tutorial had -zxvf20:42
penguin42z is for compressed ones20:42
dogmatic69on a server20:42
dogmatic69would that have done .tar.bz2?20:43
penguin42z is  bz2 compress, x is extract, v is verbose, j is bzip2 compression20:43
penguin42tar --help  will list them all20:43
dogmatic69ah. First tutorial I read on 'extract bz2' was 'buzip2 ...'20:44
popeyyou dont need the z or j20:44
popeytar auto-detects the compression and uses the right tool20:44
popeyjust use xvf20:44
penguin42popey: That's pretty new isn't it?20:44
popeyfew years20:44
dogmatic69as far as I am conserned this tar app just checks you have some random chars after the - :P20:45
penguin42exactly :-)20:45
penguin42popey: Anyway, it's easier to remember them for when you're creating20:45
dogmatic69popey: I downloaded it again and tar -xvf does a bz2 just fine20:47
dogmatic69thanks all20:47
penguin42popey: I've been putting the z in for nearly 20 years so it might take a little while to not do it20:48
Azelphurpopey: I found out what was up with my printer, the cartridges were blocked up, left them soaking in cleaning fluid for 8 hours, it works 100% perfect now20:56
ali1234directhex: can i just start writing a unity3d game without using the unity editor?20:56
Azelphurbefore and after lol20:57
penguin42Azelphur: Yeh inkjets tend to get like that if you leave them for a few days20:57
Azelphurpenguin42: heh, mine had been abused a bit, my brother 100% drained the ink, then left it for a few months with no ink in it, so it obviously really dried up, head clean operations did nothing :(20:58
Azelphursoaking the cartridges worked though20:58
ali1234lol you never told us that20:58
ali1234you said it just stopped working one day :)20:58
Azelphurhaha, I didn't put the two together until I seriously inspected the cartridge20:58
ali1234yes, a few months without ink will do that20:58
Azelphurhe ultra drained it, the sponges were white inside the cartridge lol20:59
Azelphurit's all good now anyway, 30ml of ink in every cartridge, should last a while20:59
Azelphurand now I know how to fix it if it happens again, a little acetone bath :)20:59
popeyali1234, i just get a loading screen for unity3d and then a blank window :(21:06
popeywindow controls are there but no content inside, its running but some issue :(21:06
ali1234popey: sure. i don't want or need the editor though21:06
ali1234actually this question relates mono as a whole. if i write helloworld.cs in gedit, how do i build it with gnu make, say?21:07
ali1234every doc i see says basically to let monodevelop or some other IDE autogenerate a monstrous impenetrable build system21:08
ali1234for helloworld.c you don't even need a Makefile as the built in rules are enough21:09
Laneycall the compiler?21:09
Laneydmcs helloworld.cs21:09
ali1234Laney: that's actually helpful to me. one of the problems i hit was there's about 5 different compilers in mono and i never know which one to use21:10
ali1234yeah exactly21:10
ali1234so actually mcs?21:10
Laneyif you have 2.1121:11
Laneywhich you don't if you are using the distro package21:11
ali1234oh :(21:11
ali1234see what i mean?21:11
Laneynot really21:11
ali1234it works!21:16
directhexali1234: NAFAIK21:40
AzelphurThis looks pretty cool, http://mtxone.com/products/matrixone android tablet for like £40 and the specs don't seem too bad either22:16
ali1234yeah nice renders22:17
Azelphurthere are videos of it on youtube that I checked out, it looks ok in the flesh too22:17
Azelphurfor a £40 tablet, it seems very nice22:17
ali1234videos from random people who bought one?22:17
popeymassive bezel22:17
hamitronplus VAT, plus postage22:23
Azelphurhamitron: well, it's £37, so it'd probably come to £50 shipped22:24
penguin42oh that's impressively cheap22:31
penguin42(crap display, but still)22:31
ali1234800x480 is plenty22:32
ali1234mobile GPUs aren't good enough to do much better than that anyway22:32
ali1234actually this tablet is more or less the same specs as an N90022:33
penguin42ali1234: Well thing slike the nexus 7 is doing 1280x800 display - so 4x the res - on an admittedly chunkier cpu22:33
ali1234except the N900 has 32GB22:33
penguin42ali1234: Other than twice the ram and a cpu clocked 2-3 times faster22:34
ali1234N900 scales up to 1GHz, can go to 1.2GHz if you hack it22:35
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
ali1234but pixel pushing is a function of GPU, not CPU22:36
penguin42I'm guessing that tablet is an Allwinner A10 - most of the cheap stuff is; plenty of boards around for ~$45, that's the first tablet I've seen22:36
ali1234so it depends what GPU this has22:36
penguin42ali1234: If it's the A10 it'll be a Mali400 I think22:36
ali1234cortex A8 it says22:36
ali1234same as N90022:37
penguin42ali1234: The Allwinner a10 is a cortex a822:37
penguin42ali1234: Although there are lots of choices of which gpu to put with that22:37
ali1234they need to stop calling everything A<n>22:38
penguin42ali1234: Indeed (apple play the same trick)22:38
penguin42ali1234: Yeh so the n900 has an OMAP3430 which has PowerVR graphics, not sure which is faster, I suspect the PowerVR22:38
ali1234the A8 is istself armv7, isn't it?22:38
penguin42ali1234: armv7 architecture22:39
penguin42   ^instruction set architecture22:39
ali1234which is newer than ARM11, which was actually armv622:39
ali1234this stuff makes no sense22:39
penguin42ali1234: Indeed22:39
ali1234anyway, it seems good for the price22:41
ali1234i would want to know more about the architecture before buying one though22:43
ali1234so they have a GPL download page?22:43
ali1234their forum has two posts on it?22:44
penguin42ali1234: I doubt it, if it is an A10 based thing there are zillions of different A10 boards out there and there is kernel source22:44
penguin42ali1234: see #arm-netbooks if interested, lots of people playing with a10 stuff (not that we're sure it is a10)22:44
ali1234yeah i'm not really convinced this is legit22:44
hamitronwish they still made the N90022:45
penguin42ali1234: It could be for that price, there are lots of things at similar price points in tv box like things, haven't seen a tablet though22:45
ali1234if they released a BSP for it i'd probably get one22:46
ali1234or even just released enough info that i could go and find a compatible one22:46
penguin42ali1234: cubieboard.org is about $45 for a bare board (but with a lot more pinned out but no tablet)22:48
ali1234no screen, no battery, no case?22:48
ali1234no power supply?22:48
penguin42yeh, just a dev board22:48
ali1234bring your own SD card?22:48
ali1234so you're looking at $15022:48
ali1234and lots of duct tape22:48
penguin42lots of duct tape, but not $100 - it's more of a dev board not a tablet22:49
penguin42ali1234: It has things like ether and sata pinned out22:49
ali1234yeah. dev board for what though?22:49
penguin42ali1234: like a pi is , but with a decent CPU and networking and ram22:49
ali1234the point of a dev board is to test your software for use in a tablet or something22:49
penguin42ali1234: they should make a nice little NAS or media player with the addition of a box22:50
ali1234if you just want to make "apps" (which is really all the Pi is actually good for btw) then a dev board is not useful22:50
ali1234beside,s i have plenty of boards i could use to make a NAS22:51
ali1234i also have a NAS22:51
penguin42ali1234: My point really was about the cost, I'm just saying that tablets price is not stupidly low if you can build a low qunatity board for ~$4522:52
ali1234it's possible for it to be real22:52
ali1234that doesn't mean it is though22:52
ali1234if multiple people have bought and received them i'd expect more than 2 posts on their forum22:52
ali1234literally 2 posts, not two threads22:52
ali1234both fromt he same user i think22:53
ali1234what i don't understand is if someone wants to make a cheap educational computer, why are they putting in cutting edge (and heavily patented) GPUs and stuff?22:53
penguin42ali1234: They're not, they're just buying a cheap chip that includes CPU and GPU22:54
ali1234the chinese can put a SNES inside a game controller for $522:54
ali1234so "it's cheap" is not a convincing argument22:54
directhexyou'd be amazed at ust how terrifyingly bad some cheap arm SoC implementations can be22:54
directhexas in bafflingly insane corners being cut22:55
penguin42directhex: Got some good examples?22:55
ali1234but if you're not allowed to know about how it works, what does it matter?22:55
ali1234penguin42: i do22:55
directhexpenguin42: the USB stack on the raspberry pi's broadcom, for example22:55
penguin42directhex: Oh yes22:55
ali1234oh the chinese MIPS chips make broadcom look like geniuses seriously22:55
penguin42ali1234: I agree on having a closed gpu, it doesn't do much good for education22:56
directhexali1234: are those missing hardware FPUs? nobody in #debian-mips answered me22:56
ali1234god knows22:56
penguin42ali1234: But there again I don't understand the point of an educational computer given what you can do with a 2 year old pc22:56
directhexpenguin42: scope22:56
ali1234penguin42: PCs are clunky, fragile, unportable, and expensive22:56
directhexpenguin42: computer science was FAR more alive during the bbc era than when every family had an amazing multi-ghz pc22:57
ali1234the BBC came with full documentation22:57
directhexwe desperately need a new bbc model b22:57
ali1234i even remember my amiga came with circuit diagrams22:57
directhexand a new ecosystem of shitty alternatives22:57
directhexsome of which may be excessively welsh22:57
penguin42directhex: I'm not actually sure I agree, I grew up on a model B and programmed it down to the bone, but you can do pretty much the same on a well chosen cheap pc22:57
ali1234imagine that22:57
directhexpenguin42: can, or do?22:57
ali1234penguin42: of course. all you need to do is load up a BBC emulator...22:58
directhexpenguin42: nobody - *NOBODY* - other than the nerdiest of nerds uses a pc for anything but facebook these days22:58
penguin42directhex: can, very rarely do - I know a few people who've written their own OSs that boot off a floppy image on a PC22:58
penguin42ali1234: Yeh my Beeb emulator is one of the well known ones :-)22:58
penguin42directhex: But that's not because you can't - I'm not sure the number of nerds has decreased, I think it's purely that there have been an increased number of non-nerds22:59
penguin42The attraction of the pi is it's cheap enough (and light and small enough) to be disposable - i.e. strappable to weather balloons or giveable to kids23:00
ali1234AlanBell: yeah but the amiga had discrete chips for each part23:00
AlanBellali1234: it did, paula, denise, the blitter/blimmer and a few others23:01
ali1234the raspberry pi isn't much more than a breakout board for BCM283523:01
penguin42directhex: Look at the number of hack spaces and similar that there are now with people doing things; I don't believe the nerdyness has disappeared; it's just that it's easier these days to drive your IO from a $5 USB->IO lead from perl/python/etc than it is to go poking in sheila23:01
ali1234penguin42: not if you want to do anything more advanced than control some fairy lights it isn't23:01
penguin42AlanBell: Oh heck, what was Agnus?23:01
ali1234agnus was memory controller23:01
ali1234fat agnus allowed 1MB of "chip memory" (what we'd call GPU memory now23:02
penguin42ali1234: I bet you can drive the IO's on a USB parallel adapter as fast as you could drive the IO on a user port on a model B (I think!)23:02
ali1234or was it fatter agnus?23:02
ali1234i forget23:02
penguin42ali1234: Ah you see, I was a Beeb/Archimedes guy, never did buy an Amiga23:02
directhexpenguin42: we don't need the ppc b because of the hardware, we need the culture it fostered23:02
penguin42directhex: But my point is the culture is still here - it's just that there are more non-geeks around23:02
directhexwe need schools teaching super young kids to code, we need kids enthused about the concept23:03
ali1234it's not about teaching how to code23:03
directhexwe need to end all IT teaching in schools immediately23:03
ali1234it's about teaching how to be curious, and to solve problems on their own23:03
directhexnothing's done more to hurt computer science than bloody secretary training GCSEs23:03
ali1234any one can cut and paste some code and change a few lines23:03
penguin42directhex: Oh I don't know, I think the IT teaching is a separate problem23:03
ali1234it's about teaching how to *invent*23:03
directhexbedtime. crazy early start tomorrow.23:04
* penguin42 is on holiday tomorrow - yawn :-)23:04
ali1234example: would this be possible on a raspberry pi? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphex_Twin#ZX81_competition23:04
ali1234i would say no23:04
directhexcat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp23:05
penguin42ali1234: Yeh but that's because of the demise of analog tv's23:05
ali1234no, and no23:05
ali1234you couldn't do something like this on a raspberry pi because the kind of gpu registers you'd need to access to do it are not accessable from the arm core23:06
ali1234and the reason for that is because a large part of how the BCM part is designed is about limiting what can be done with it23:06
penguin42ali1234: you are aware of the pc speaker sound kernel module aren't you - the one which does /dev/dsp by modulating the normal PC speaker wired to an io line?23:06
penguin42ali1234: I agree the bcm is a really bad choice23:06
ali1234what does this have to do with anything?23:06
ali1234the problem is that everything you can do with a raspberry pi has already been done23:07
penguin42ali1234: my point is you can do that type of hack on pretty much anything23:07
penguin42ali1234: Hmm no, actually the nice thing with the PI is that because it's got such a low spec cpu and ram the really neat things will be people doing stuff which seem impossible in that spec23:07
ali1234no, they won't23:08
ali1234what exactly is impressive in 256mb of ram?23:08
ali1234and a opengl GPU?23:08
penguin42ali1234: The problem with the PC is that you can always find a faster one with more memory, the Pi can't do that23:08
penguin42ali1234: It's still 256mb of ram and a poor gpu compared to a PC23:08
ali1234for the kind of software a child would write?23:09
ali1234what software actually needs that much memory? a video editing program perhaps?23:10
ali1234you think some 7 year old is going to rewrite final cut pro?23:10
ali1234that would be impressive, sure. it's not going to happen though23:10
AlanBellopengl is good though23:11
hamitronstops you using huge textures23:11
penguin42ali1234: I think they'll try and write big demos and games23:11
ali1234opengl is good but you can't really do clever hacks with it, because it is an abstraction23:11
AlanBellmeh to textures and clever hacks23:11
ali1234opengl killed the demo scene for about 10 years23:12
ali1234until GPUs got to the point where they caught up with what machine code hackers could do on an amiga23:12
hamitronI personally think it will be the more advanced users building collections of software to be functional with that hardware, will be the best thing.... I can't see kids pushing it with personal apps23:13
penguin42ali1234: Some of the GPUs on some of the little ARMs have been reverse engineered to some degree23:13
DaraelIt is a nigh-universal fact in human history that people say the past was better than the present.  I see that in this conversation.23:13
penguin42ali1234: Did you ever burn out your user port VIA on a model B though?23:14
penguin42ali1234: I say it's probably a much better idea to do the IO down something like USB for most things :-)23:14
penguin42one of my B's has a few bits of wiring over the scorch marks :-)23:15
ali1234Darael: it's a demonstrable fact that IT education went downhill when PCs were introduced in to schools, and fixing that was one of the goals of the pi.23:15
hamitronimo the pi won't do that23:16
penguin42hamitron: Agreed23:16
ali1234in fact the only goal really23:16
hamitronbut I'll have fun using it anyway23:16
ali1234microsoft pushed PCs into schools to create a large number of office worker drones for their customers23:16
ali1234broadcom is pushing the pi into schools to create a large number of shovelware producing drones to fill up the app stores of the customers23:17
Daraelali1234: That I would agree with.  The implication that it was better when people /had/ to do complicated (and very interesting, certainly) things to get fun things working is what I was referring to, not the horrible state of IT education at present.23:17
ali1234neither is really about eduction, at least not any kind of education that produces innovation23:17
ali1234teaching office is a type of education, after all23:18
penguin42ali1234: I don't know about that; I think 'innovation' comes a bit from knowing what's possible/hard and having tools that you can use23:18
hamitronwhat upsets me, is how "geeks" often don't learn basic principles in computing (and electronics), because "it is not needed"23:18
penguin42but there again I'm alwys somewhat disbelieving when anyone says 'innovation'23:18
hamitronand it even goes further back to not even learning mathematics23:19
ali1234mathematics is all about innovation23:19
penguin42hamitron: Again, I think that just comes back to being more geeks; some of whom are now content to wrangle stuff at a higher level, and I suspect just as many at the low level23:20
ali1234if they are content to do that they are by definition not geeks23:20
hamitronI just feel you are restricting innovation, if you restrict users to restricted tools23:21
penguin42ali1234: I'm not sure, there are guys who know a heck of a lot more about higher up in the stack and do some crazy things with them that I haven't got a clue about; but I know how to debug something from a scope upwards23:21
hamitronI read something today on a site about C programming.... it claimed nobody worries about wasting 2 bytes in each loop these days and stuff23:23
hamitronsuch a shame....23:24
penguin42hamitron: but these days what matters is stuff like cache hit ratios and tlb misses rather than necessarily the cycle count of how many add instructions you have - and that's a lot harder to follow23:25
ali1234that's an argument i often see23:25
penguin42ali1234: It's *mostly* true sadly, when one cache hit can eat a few hundred cycles23:25
ali1234and what it basically boils down to is "things are more complicated now so we should not teach them. instead we should only teach the same things we have taught before, or stop teaching them entirely"23:26
hamitronwhy not worry about both?23:26
penguin42hamitron: If youv'e got the time then I agree23:26
hamitronbut users from their first teachings, are now not worried about defining the correct data types from what I've seen23:27
ali1234you know, even an 8 bit CPU is a lot more complicated than a few logic gates. does that mean that in the 80s they should have just done boolean logic 101 and then said "but nobody worries about that any more"23:27
penguin42hamitron: Actually if anything the data types are the critical bits23:27
ali1234and then gone straight on to how to make a database in pascal23:27
penguin42ali1234: Plenty of courses did23:27
penguin42ali1234: Certainly when I was doing CS undergrad in the early 90's teaching electronics/basic logic cirtcuits was starting to go out23:28
hamitronpenguin42, I agree, but people seem to just not worry now23:28
penguin42hamitron: But then you end up with someone writing the whole thing in python/javascript and wondering why it's slow23:28
hamitronyeh :/23:28
ali1234penguin42: on my course in 2002 it covered everything from boolean logic up to how to design a TLB23:29
penguin42ali1234: Was that a computer engineering degree or generic CS ?23:29
ali1234including "how to make a flip from from gates"23:29
ali1234it was a generic CS degree23:29
penguin42ali1234: Hmm that was a good course; but did you elect to take that route or could you have gone more databasey?23:30
ali1234the course also covered how to wwrite an OS process manager in MIPS assembler23:30
ali1234it covered database design too23:30
ali1234these were all core modules23:30
hamitronsome just teaching higher level though23:30
penguin42ali1234: Ours was 68k assembler on Atari's :-)23:31
hamitronI never did the higher level, because I studied electronic engineering ;)23:31
ali1234you could choose to stay on a particular track and get more advanced23:31
ali1234to the architecture course got even more crazy. or you could go down the AI/robotics route23:31
ali1234oh the core modules also covered graphics from GPU pipelines up to high level opengl, and also raytracing23:32
penguin42hamitron: Yeh it's like a few years ago I worked with a bunch of serious analog guys, doing high speed serial transceivers, they could wrangle their smith charts in seriously scary ways but didn't know hex, but hey it's just different bits of skilsl23:32
ali1234back then it was actually allowed to understand the graphics pipeline in an SGI machine23:33
penguin42ali1234: Interesting, for us a lot of that was optional that elected, I did the 3d graphics course (and my M.Sc was a lot about GPU pipelines back in the days of large SGI kit)23:33
ali1234actually some of this stuff i did must have been optional. can't remember what though23:33
hamitronwhat is the best route to learn 3d programming now?23:34
ali1234the core stuff was very comprehensive though23:34
ali1234i think i did the 3d graphics course higher level too23:34
ali1234one of the optional courses i didn't do was the high level compiler design one23:34
penguin42hamitron: I think if I was trying to learn it now I'd probably do something like learn OpenGL via something like python23:34
hamitronI've dabbled in bits out of interest, but there seems to be 2 routes..... start from the beginning, or miss it out23:34
ali1234because the basic level one just destroyed me23:34
* penguin42 did some OpenGL a few years back, but nothing serious23:35
hamitronI'd rather use C tbh23:35
ali1234bu basically the core contained everything about how a computer works from logic gates up to UI design (that was a truely horrible course btw, and the only one we had to do on windows machines)23:35
penguin42hamitron: It's easy enough then to write some OpenGL C23:35
ali1234and i do mean *everything*23:36
penguin42ali1234: Where was that?23:36
penguin42ali1234: Haha so was I :-)23:36
penguin42ali1234: And I thought they'd gone all Javay23:36
ali1234there was a java course23:36
ali1234there was a C course and a list course too23:37
hamitronpenguin42, fixed function pipeline?23:37
hamitronor the new thingy23:37
ali1234learn fixed function first23:37
ali1234but learn how it works, not just how to use it23:37
hamitronone of my books says not to23:37
ali1234(see that's the key in learning anything)23:37
hamitronyeh, that is my thinking23:37
ali1234fixed function is a subset of the new stuff23:38
ali1234so if you learn how fixed function does what it does, then you'll under stand how not having a fixed function is so much better, and what to do with the bits you have, at least how to recreate the ff stuff23:38
hamitrontbh, I've only done bits of fixed function stuff so far23:39
hamitronbiggest problem (as is often the case), is time23:40
ali1234you need to grasp the ideas of vector and matrix math, quaternions, projections, etc23:40
penguin42hamitron: Yeh I dabbled with OpenGL when it first came out, and I had a bit more of a play a few years ago, but never had the time to really get the newer stuff23:40
hamitronI think some of the books I have, try to get you creating too nicer stuff too fast23:42
hamitronwith the intention of keeping users interested23:42
hamitronskimp on some stuff23:43
hamitronbut this is how things seem to be23:43
hamitronali1234, penguin42, ty, you've helped convince me I'm right wanting to look at older stuff a little more23:44
ali1234more knowledge is never a bad thing23:45
ali1234sometimes it takes longer to digest it though23:45
hamitronbut I enjoy getting that knowledge anyway23:46
hamitroneven if it is not used so much23:46
hamitronprefer that, to doing stuff that just seems to "be done this way, cuz it is"23:46
hamitronali1234, does your game compile on windows btw?23:49
ali1234it has done in the past23:49
hamitronI seem to be turning into a windows user23:51

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