[00:02] <gebbione> hi all, for some reason my drop down and right click menus are not showing in my ubuntu
[00:04] <gebbione> anyone has an idea why this might happen? for instance when i right click nothing happens/shows up and when i click on an application dropdown (lets say conf options) that drop down options dont show up
[00:17] <gebbione> :/
[00:51] <Azelphur> I HAVE MADE MY PRINTER WORK.
[00:51] <Azelphur> \o/
[00:55] <popey> what you do?
[00:56] <Azelphur> popey: I went nuts and put 30ml of ink in the 5ml cartridge
[00:56] <Azelphur> xD
[00:56] <popey> hah
[00:56] <popey> so it was out of ink?
[00:56] <Azelphur> I used an entire bottle of that stuff, haha
[00:56] <popey> schoolboy error
[00:56] <Azelphur> apparently it was very out of ink
[00:56] <popey> surely you ended up wearing it all?
[00:57] <Azelphur> nope
[00:57] <Azelphur> think I'm gonna buy one of these though http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250ml-Universal-Compatible-Dye-Black-Bulk-Ink-CISS-Inkjet-Refilling-bottle-/220965052722?pt=UK_Computing_Ink_Refills_Kits&hash=item33728b2132#ht_991wt_1165
[00:57] <Azelphur> I've gotta replace my dads 30ml bottle I nicked, and I wouldn't mind some refills for myself
[00:58] <Azelphur> I literally emptied the entire bottle and just when it was on the last dregs the cartridge overflowed, so that's when I stopped lol
[00:58] <popey> blimey
[00:58] <popey> big cartridge
[00:58] <popey> maybe I didnt put enough in mine
[00:58] <Azelphur> indeed, it's only supposed to do 5ml
[00:58] <popey> cool story bro
[00:59] <popey> nn
[00:59] <Azelphur> nn :D
[01:03] <ali1234> i suspect air pockets
[01:03] <Azelphur> probably
[01:04] <Azelphur> it puts big splodges on the paper now sometimes
[01:04] <Azelphur> but I imagine that'll go away
[01:04] <ali1234> hmm
[01:04] <ali1234> when you;ve used about 25ml of ink, probably
[01:04] <Azelphur> 30, yea xD
[01:04] <Azelphur> it's a 30ml bottle and I drained it lol
[01:07] <ali1234> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-19543541
[01:08] <ali1234> if that guys does it i will be amazed
[01:10] <Azelphur> indeed o.O
[07:09] <diplo> Morning all
[07:23] <christel> morning diplo, everyone :)
[07:49] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[07:52] <mattt> morning brobostigon
[07:52] <mattt> morning diplo, chistel
[07:52] <brobostigon> morning mattt
[07:53] <christel> hiya mattt
[07:53] <brobostigon> morning christel
[07:53] <christel> brobostigon \o
[07:53] <brobostigon> christel o/
[08:08] <diplo> Got an odd issue, my terminal keeps disconnecting from my irssi host with broken pipe after about a minute or two
[08:11] <diplo> Works fine with putty under windows and my box at home
[08:28] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :)
[08:29] <christel> JamesTait: \o/
[08:29]  * JamesTait hugs christel
[08:33] <christel> hugs \o/
[08:34] <bittin^work> o/
[08:52] <christel> tjenare bittin^work :)
[08:52] <bittin^work> tjena christel
[08:53] <bittin^work> http://albaux.deviantart.com/art/Ubuntu-12-10-New-default-Wallpaper-329140735 :D
[09:08] <christel> lol
[09:18] <czajkowski> diplo: that only ever hapens me after about an hour of not even going near my machine
[09:18] <diplo> :/
[09:18] <diplo> Mines within a few mins, only started happening a few days ago
[09:18] <diplo> Not sure how to find out whats happening
[09:18] <Laney> is this a new thing?
[09:19] <diplo> Yep
[09:19] <Laney> try putting a ServerAliveInterval in .ssh/config
[09:19] <diplo> I ssh to my vps and run byobu, everyday since i installed 12.04
[09:19] <diplo> kk, think it's there already
[09:19] <diplo> 2secs
[09:20] <diplo> Hmm, maybe didn't readd it after reinstall
[09:20] <diplo> Will try that now
[09:29] <diplo> OK, connected via precise again
[09:29] <diplo> Let's x fingers :P
[09:33] <diplo> Bope
[09:33] <diplo> Nope*
[09:33] <diplo> :/
[09:33] <diplo> I guess I could log via config to a file and see what happens
[10:01] <Laney> errrrrrrr
[10:01] <Laney> anyone know what slots VM do for engineer appointments?
[10:01] <Laney> I have one this afternoon but no clue what time he's supposed to be coming
[10:04] <diplo> No idea sorry, my company would never foot the bill for that :D
[10:05] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:15] <diplo> Morning davmor2
[10:15] <davmor2> hey diplo
[10:15] <diplo> Had a play with django last night, bit of a pita but does look good
[10:24] <Laney> aha, he's coming now
[10:25] <Laney> bonus
[10:25] <darren-meeting> maxp, ping
[10:26] <davmor2> diplo: the only issue I had running the tutorial from the site was that the admin section refused to display in w3m
[10:30] <bigcalm> Greetings
[10:31] <davmor2> hey bigcalm 'Ow am yam dude
[10:32] <bigcalm> davmor2: Morning. Wondering if I'll ever get enough sleep at night not to be knackered by 11:30. How's you?
[10:32] <bigcalm> Doh, really should reboot this server
[10:33] <diplo> Can you load in a normal browser davmor2 ?
[10:33] <davmor2> bigcalm: pretty much the same, but I've decided it's Wednesday it's crap weather outside we all need a great day, make it so popey (and don't give me none of that I can't do that)
[10:33] <diplo> If not that's url.py needs amending
[10:34] <bigcalm> popey is a weather man?
[10:34] <davmor2> diplo: I was in a closed lxc container so I can play with it to open the lxc container up, but just couldn't be bothered last night :)
[10:34] <diplo> heh, I felt the same, this was 11-m +
[10:34] <diplo> pm*
[10:34] <bigcalm> Back in a bit (hopefully)
[10:35] <davmor2> bigcalm: no not the weather, but I'm sure he can make everyones life full of joy joy
[10:35] <christel> http://pastebin.com/sfiSihzX anyone local-ish fancy going to thaaat
[10:36] <bittin^work> christel, when is it?
[10:36] <bittin^work> found it iam blind
[10:37] <bittin^work> sadly not when iam in the UK =(
[10:37] <christel> :(
[10:37] <bigcalm> christel: why the sad?
[10:40] <elfy> might manage to get to one of them
[10:43] <davmor2> christel: erm no :(
[10:43] <christel> davmor2: FINE, you suck.
[10:44] <elfy> new milton one is about 5 miles from me
[10:44] <andrews> Hello all
[10:44] <elfy> hello andrews
[10:44] <bigcalm> Would somebody please stop drinking my coffee?
[10:45] <andrews> Can I ask if there are any iMac users in here who might be able to help with a bluetooth keyboard problem I am having?  (not ubuntu I know though ive found people in here know their stuff generally!)
[10:46] <davmor2> bigcalm: go take a look in the mirror, see that bloke looking back at you, I bet it's him
[10:47] <bigcalm> Damn that man
[10:47] <Laney> woohoo
[10:47] <Laney> the man fixed my internets
[10:48] <davmor2> Laney: woohoo how were you on the internets before
[10:48] <Laney> well, it worked but was just crappy
[10:48] <Laney> he attached a forward path attenuator (whatever that is), and it's rainbows and unicorns now
[10:49] <bigcalm> Shiney
[10:52] <daubers> ooooh... one in Newbury
[10:53] <mattt> what's in newbury
[10:54] <daubers> that thing that christel was banding around
[10:54] <christel> it looks like it could be quite fun :)
[10:54] <christel> (they had me at "are you sci-curious?" tbf)
[10:55] <mattt> oh yeah, heard about that from the readinggeek folks
[10:56] <bittin^work> christel, hows norway?
[10:57] <christel> no idea :o
[10:57] <christel> (i moved away in 98)
[10:58] <bittin^work> ah
[10:58] <davmor2> christel: only a couple of weeks ago then
[10:58] <bittin^work> why did i think you was from norway then o:?
[11:00] <mungojerry> guy on the train today was lamenting the crap quality control on his £529 iphone 5
[11:01] <mungojerry> the casing was all dented and flaky
[11:01] <mungojerry> i lol'd quietly
[11:01] <davmor2> mungojerry: I wouldn't of I'd of got my SGS3 out and gone look at the shiny :D
[11:02] <popey> mungojerry, thats _one_ reason I'm not upgrading
[11:02] <popey> I like the glass front and back
[11:02] <popey> 4s is rock solid
[11:05] <marxjohnson> I like my unibody aluminium HTC Legend, hard as nails
[11:05] <marxjohnson> just a pain it's stuck on Android 2.x
[11:11] <popey> marxjohnson, tried any games yet?
[11:13] <mungojerry> popey, my iphone 5 doesn't have that problem: http://ubuntuone.com/5AVzrvnmz9WoRWiWXxnmOS
[11:13] <popey> haha
[11:14] <popey> thats ace
[11:14] <popey> lunchtime!
[11:15] <popey> time to eat and be entertained by Stephen Colbert and John Stewart
[11:15] <popey> whilst simultaneously confirming bugs \o/
[11:15] <mungojerry> popey, got a bug for you :D
[11:16] <bittin^work> mungojerry, :D
[11:16] <marxjohnson> popey: not yet, I'm at work, might give one a go over lunch
[11:16] <marxjohnson> I did buy Nikki and the Robots
[11:17] <mungojerry> popey, interesetd to know your thoughts on bug 986676 . it affects libgphoto2 and a very popular camera model. there is a patch which works, but i don't know why it hasn't been patched
[11:19] <christel> bittin^work: i am! i just haven't lived in norway for a long long time :P
[11:20] <bittin^work> christel, ah i see
[11:22] <popey> marxjohnson, wonder if you were the 500th purchaser, they're 503 now, was 499 this morning
[11:24] <bittin^work> that looks cool
[11:24] <popey> mungojerry, looks like an upstream bug?
[11:25] <bittin^work> might buy that tommorow when i have money =)
[11:25] <bittin^work> i love oldschool platformers <3
[11:27] <bittin^work> and i even meet the guys who did the trailer music :D
[11:27] <bittin^work> so gonna buy it for sure
[11:28] <Laney> I totally failed to find any extra batteries on the first two levels
[11:28] <Laney> other than the obvious ones
[11:28] <popey> i do love that game
[11:28] <bittin^work> iam still at work, will buy it when i get home :D
[11:28] <popey> they have a (very quiet) irc channel here #nikki :)
[11:30] <bittin^work> whats the minimum you can pay?
[11:30] <bittin^work> 1 EUR?
[11:31] <bittin^work> yepp 1 EUR for steam keys
[11:32] <bittin^work> bought that game now, for my last money until tommorow :P
[11:32] <bittin^work> for 2 EUR
[11:38] <bittin^work> i was #504 :(
[11:38] <bittin^work> not that that is a cool number
[11:39] <bittin^work> :( my work PC was to shit for playing it so need to wait until i get home
[11:39] <bittin^work> Intel GMA 460 ftl :<
[11:39] <popey> really? plays fine on my crummy intel box even at 1080p
[11:40] <bittin^work> but it works better on my GTX 560 at home
[11:40] <popey> oh, 460
[11:40] <popey> erk
[11:40] <bittin^work> or whatever this box uses
[11:40] <bittin^work> old HP Compaq 6910p
[11:41] <bittin^work> laptop but maybe your suppose to work at work and not play platform games
[12:03] <mungojerry> which game are we talking about?
[12:04] <davmor2> mungojerry: Nikki and the Robots
[12:11] <mungojerry> sound like an 80s band
[12:12] <popey> the music is retro 8-bit chiptune style
[12:13] <mungojerry> i'm in an open plan office but i'm imagining the music blip blop blip as i watch the trailer
[12:14] <bittin^work> headphones is a nice thing
[12:23] <pinky-> Black Mesa Source (HalfLife) is a good free game, but it's for winblows only. http://www.blackmesasource.com/download.html
[12:23] <bittin^work> pinky-, yeah started to play that =)
[12:24] <pinky-> yeah I grabbed it couple of weeks ago too
[12:28] <marxjohnson> Source engine games work pretty well under Wine IME
[12:29] <pinky-> good good
[12:30] <marxjohnson> I'll have to give it a go
[12:31] <pinky-> yesterday on the NewsGroups I found a new steam free version which is 2gb bigger insize, so grabbing now also
[12:31] <pinky-> still downloading now
[12:34] <popey> black mesa is free?
[12:34] <popey> didnt know that
[12:34] <pinky-> popey, yes
[12:34] <popey> neat, will boot my windows box up and get it :)
[12:34] <Mez> yep... free as long as you have something based on source engine (TF2 counts)
[12:34] <pinky-> it's a good game too
[12:34] <popey> i have the orange box
[12:43] <bigcalm> popey: it's well worth the time and effort to boot into windows. Very enjoyable
[12:44] <bigcalm> I just bought the Humble Bundle 6. This is while I have 2 domains that need renewing
[12:44] <bigcalm> Priorities...
[12:44] <mungojerry> is it HL1 graphics?
[12:44] <bigcalm> mungojerry: no, hl2 graphics
[12:44] <mungojerry> oh sweet
[12:44] <bigcalm> mungojerry: this is the whole point
[12:44] <bigcalm> Plus extra story
[12:44] <Mez> I bought HB6 aaaagggeesss ago ... get with the program bigcalm
[12:44] <bigcalm> New music, new voice actors
[12:45] <bigcalm> Mez: call me lazy, I just don't have much time to play games
[12:45] <mungojerry> when's it coming to linux?
[12:45] <Mez> lazy: There's ALWAYS time to play games.
[12:45] <bittin^work> whenever Steam and Source gets ported =)
[12:45] <bittin^work> bought HIB6 aswell, got the extra games yesterday only 1 i did not have already lol
[12:46] <bigcalm> I was surprised that Black Mesa isn't available via Steam. Considering it was in their Green Light programme
[12:46] <bittin^work> bigcalm, they will accept some more green light stuff next month
[12:47] <bittin^work> yea whould be nice to have it native on steam
[12:47] <bigcalm> I had to download it from a very slow mirror over more than 1 day :(
[12:48] <bittin^work> i took the torrent took me like 7-8h when it was released :D
[12:48] <bigcalm> The torrent never worked for me
[12:49] <Mez> http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/mezzle/uk <-- actually scared @ seeing that total :(
[12:49] <mungojerry> will it eventually work on linux?
[12:49] <Leckey> wow Mez
[12:49] <Leckey> think of what you could of bought instead!
[12:50] <diplo> Leckey: Look at directhex's
[12:50] <Mez> Leckey: could have :P
[12:50] <directhex> hm?
[12:50] <diplo> http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/directhex/uk
[12:50] <diplo> Wish I had the money to spend on games :(
[12:50] <Leckey> christ
[12:50] <Mez> Leckey: and most of them are from indie bundles etc. Or when they were on sale.
[12:50] <directhex> steamcalculator lies
[12:50] <diplo> hah
[12:50] <Mez> Steam Caclculator is the *current* price.
[12:51] <diplo> So you tell your wife :P
[12:51] <directhex> it shows full-price titles, and for games only available in a bundle, it shows the bundle price as the game price
[12:51] <diplo> http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/diplo
[12:51] <bittin^work> http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/bittin1/uk
[12:51] <diplo> Saints Row: The Third I own that ?
[12:51] <diplo> :p
[12:51] <bittin^work> diplo, maybe there becouse of the free weekend last weekend and your account has not synced yet
[12:51] <bittin^work> *resynced
[12:51] <directhex> e.g. it shows GTA1 as £20
[12:51] <directhex> but GTA1 is free
[12:52] <bittin^work> directhex, not on Steam but on Rockstars website it is
[12:52] <directhex> or dungeon siege 1 for £23, it's only available in a bundle with DS3
[12:52] <diplo> Will look when I get home :)
[12:52] <bittin^work> here is my old account somone hacked http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/bittin when i was like 14-15 :( and dumb enough to accept a trojan
[12:52] <directhex> http://store.steampowered.com/app/39190
[12:52] <bittin^work> so thats why i got http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/bittin1 now :p
[12:52] <bittin^work> a 1
[12:53] <Mez> bittin^work: why not recover your old account ?
[12:53] <bittin^work> Mez, becouse i dont remember that email and stuff
[12:53] <bigcalm> When you were 14-15? bittin^work, how old are you now?
[12:53] <bittin^work> becouse hacker changed that too :p
[12:53] <bittin^work> 21
[12:53] <bittin^work> Steam member since: 2003-09-13
[12:54] <bittin^work> Steam member since: 2005-10-26 and have more games etc at the new account anyways :p
[12:54] <Mez> Steam member since: 2005-08-08 <-- :)
[12:54] <bittin^work> but if i could get my old account back from the hacker i would not mind
[12:55] <diplo> Steam member since: 2003-09-14
[12:55] <bittin^work> but it was hacked in 2004 and i dont remember what email and stuff i used i think guy changed that aswell
[12:55] <bigcalm> I joined in November 2004. I wonder what was released back then to make me join
[12:55] <bigcalm> hl2 maybe?
[12:55] <Leckey> http://www.steamcalculator.com/id/ianleckey/
[12:55] <diplo> Probably, I used to play day of defeat, probably upgraded with steam
[12:55] <Leckey> not very accurate
[12:56] <Leckey> since condition zero deleted scenes, pretty sure is not 99$
[12:56] <Leckey> nor did i even buy it?!
[12:56] <diplo> No, defo don't have saints row as an option, forgot i installed steam on work laptop
[12:57] <Leckey> I'm pretty depressed that I have 760.6 hrs on Football Manager
[12:57] <daubers> Hmm... when did Ubuntu change to biosdevname?
[12:58] <bigcalm> Half-Life 2 Release Date: 16 Nov 2004 - I was right :)
[12:58] <diplo> For 12.10 isn't it daubers, was on the server mailing list a weeks ago/ month ago
[12:58] <diplo> Saying it was going live
[12:58] <diplo> a few*
[12:59] <daubers> diplo: Ah, must have missed that! Just noticed all my ports are labelled differently :) No matter. I have a script somewhere that'll fix it
[13:01] <diplo> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-January/034688.html
[13:02] <diplo> Part of the talk about it, was a more recent one
[13:03] <daubers> diplo: Yeah, google just found me that, it's not an issue as I modify the udev rules anyway so have something that can easily make stuff work again
[13:04] <daubers> diplo: I'm obviously a little out of touch at the moment!
[13:04] <diplo> heh, I'm not that in touch, just remember seeing the email. We dont use ubuntu at work apart from me so it's not something I look out for that much
[13:05] <daubers> What I'd really really love is for someone to impliment geolocation based profiling for my user profiles
[13:06] <daubers> i.e. thunderbird uses my work accounts at work, and home accounts at home
[13:06] <daubers> that would be superfun
[13:07] <diplo> Sounds good, get coding :P
[13:07] <daubers> diplo: It's on my list of projects I'd like to do when I have time :)
[13:08] <diplo> hah, good luck.. rarely seem to have time for anything
[13:09] <daubers> diplo: The list is 6 A$ pages long now.... almost got my MQTT-S stuff working \o/
[13:09] <daubers> A4 even
[13:09] <daubers> stupidfingers
[13:10] <diplo> :D - Do you spend much time with the missus?
[13:10] <daubers> diplo: Yep! Just having to adjust my sleeping hours to get stuff done
[13:10] <diplo> No kids yet then
[13:11] <daubers> Nope :)
[13:11]  * popey says nice things to Laney and points him at https://bugs.launchpad.net/nikki/+bug/1056832
[13:11] <popey> :D
[13:13] <bittin^work> :)
[13:13] <popey> Laney, I'll donate a beer token to the charity of your choice if you package that :)
[13:14] <penguin42> wow, a game written in haskell
[13:14] <Mez> popey: does it comply with DFSG (and possibly more importantly) FHS?
[13:17] <popey> there has already been two attempts to get it into debian
[13:17] <popey> which have stalled
[13:18] <popey> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2011/10/threads.html#00025
[13:18] <Daviey> The licencing looks ok, but it seems to bundle stuff.. which is less than cool.
[13:21] <bittin^work> i did not get any steam key even if it said i would if i paied 1€ or more
[13:21] <bittin^work> ah well
[13:24] <Laney> popey: there already is one
[13:25] <Laney> I swear I linked it the other day
[13:25] <popey> one what? package?
[13:25] <Laney> it's just not uploaded yet
[13:25] <Laney> ye
[13:25] <Laney> there's some bug they're trying to work out or something
[13:25] <Laney> it's how I'm playing it :-)
[13:25] <popey> link me up!
[13:26] <Laney> http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/pkg-games/packages/trunk/nikki/
[13:26] <Laney> I uploaded haskell-sfml-audio to Quantal yesterday or Monday in preparation for that actually
[13:26] <bittin^work> ah its coded in haskell cool
[13:26] <popey> \o/
[13:27] <awilkins> Anyone know a whois service that doesn't use the searches to steal the domain you just searched for?
[13:27] <popey> how can anyone know that? :)
[13:27] <awilkins> Personal experience?
[13:27] <bittin^work> whois in your shell ?
[13:28] <popey> I don't know, who is in my shell?
[13:28] <popey> Ghost in the shell?
[13:28] <bittin^work> whois in MR gnu-tools
[13:28]  * awilkins is working on a machine called "Motoko" ; irony
[13:28] <bittin^work> or if its bsd-tools
[13:28] <bittin^work> :D
[13:28] <bittin^work> my machine is called martins-laptop
[13:28] <bittin^work> haven't named it something cool yet
[13:28] <awilkins> Bah, GoDaddy have the domain I want until 15th decemeber
[13:28] <awilkins> Gets
[13:29] <awilkins> Gits
[13:29] <awilkins> GitS == Ghost in the Shell. Spooky amount of confluence here
[13:29] <bittin^work> and my boxes at home is called WINEDOWS4 and cindy
[13:29] <awilkins> I think I searched whois for it... about 15th Dec 2011... strange coincidence
[13:30] <awilkins> That's the day they registered it. Dogs.
[13:30] <awilkins> "Domains By Proxy, LLC" otherwise known as "The front company that GoDaddy uses to domain-jack you."
[13:31] <bittin^work> and iam turning of Windows 8 and Debian and going home, cya
[13:45] <mungojerry> do domain squatters generally renew their domains after squatting on them for 2 years with no bids?
[13:46] <mungojerry> a domain i wanted expired and i wasn't able to buy it on expiry day cos a quatter nicked it
[13:46] <awilkins> I'm about to find out if they abandon them after a year in December
[13:46] <awilkins> I have a calendar appointment set to register it on that day
[13:46] <mungojerry> now they want "229
[13:46] <mungojerry> awilkins, i think you need to sign up with a company to nail it for you
[13:47] <mungojerry> unless you run your own script
[13:47] <mungojerry> the whole thing is a swindle
[13:47] <awilkins> It was weird enough that my search for it was the first thing that caused it to be created
[13:47] <awilkins> Silly me, using GoDaddy as a whois
[13:48] <awilkins> "OOh, a domain someone wants! *squat*"
[13:49] <mungojerry> my one was swuashed by sedo :S
[13:50] <mungojerry> "SEDO.COM has been accused by some U.S. companies of trademark infringement, and cyber-squatting .."
[13:52] <awilkins> Just used their search to look for a domain that insults them. We
[13:52] <awilkins> shall see if they register it and put one of their parking websites on it soon.
[13:52] <mungojerry> gone are the days when an average Joe could register hotmail.com when MS forgot to renew it
[13:53] <AlanBell> HDD1
[13:53] <AlanBell> oops
[13:53] <AlanBell> silly barcode reader
[13:57] <penguin42> AlanBell: ?
[13:58] <AlanBell> was messing with a barcode reader, they act as a keyboard and I zapped a barcode for HDD1
[13:59] <bigcalm> Can barcodes do utf8?
[14:00] <AlanBell> some types
[14:00] <AlanBell> some can't even do lower case
[14:00]  * davmor2 loves the fact that barcodes all include the number 666 :D
[14:01] <penguin42> davmor2: Now there is something I didn't know ?
[14:02] <davmor2> penguin42: the double bar that is longer at the start the middle and the end are all 6's
[14:02] <AlanBell> code39 just starts and ends with *
[14:04] <penguin42> davmor2: Ah, so not actually a run of 3 6's in a row
[14:05] <AlanBell> that is the EAN barcodes, like this bag of wasabi peas which is 5060036012151
[14:05] <AlanBell> the reader misses out those double bars
[14:07] <penguin42> AlanBell: Humdinger wasabi peas from Asda?
[14:08] <davmor2> AlanBell: they are positional markers that are looked for by the scanner, the barcode marker just happened to choose the same bar structure as a six
[14:08] <AlanBell> penguin42: yup!
[14:09] <penguin42> AlanBell: google's search for stuff like that is quite neat
[14:09] <awilkins> What colour are those wasabi peas? Green, or yellow?
[14:09] <AlanBell> green
[14:09] <awilkins> Shame, they do that by dying them with blue and yellow dye
[14:09] <awilkins> I like Whitworths Wasabi Bean Mix
[14:09] <awilkins> No colours
[14:10] <awilkins> Used to mess with barcode readers a bit
[14:10] <awilkins> THe one we had, had a booklet of barcodes you used to configure it
[14:11] <awilkins> Didn't do the 2D barcodes though
[14:11] <AlanBell> yeah, same as this one
[14:11] <awilkins> Although you can do those with just a webcam now
[14:11] <AlanBell> I just got a cheap and nasty handheld optical scanner
[14:11] <awilkins> Barcoded mailmerge letters
[14:11] <awilkins> Quicker for the office admin staff to process
[14:13] <penguin42> the scanners still seem to be way faster than anything camera/software based
[14:14] <Mez> barcode scanners are fun - though integrating them with web based systems - not so much fun :)
[14:14] <Mez> (espescially when they're all configured to do <barcode input><enter>
[14:15] <Mez> (when you want a tab)
[14:15] <AlanBell> Mez: that bit is reconfigurable with the manual
[14:15] <Mez> AlanBell: sometimes you want an enter, sometimes you want a tab.
[14:15] <AlanBell> oh
[14:15] <Mez> So you have to assume enter - and then capture it when you want something with multiple scans
[14:16] <MartijnVdS> We used barcodes + a web app when sending ADSL modems 10 years ago :)
[14:16] <MartijnVdS> that was a _cool_ app to write back then
[14:17] <Mez> my experience is from a full warehouse inventory system (from goods coming through the door to being shipped out to customers and all the bits inbetween)
[14:17] <AlanBell> yeah, you need to scan three barcodes to change to barcode<tab> and 
[14:17] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: but then it's always <tab> while sometimes it has to be <enter>
[14:18] <AlanBell> CPU1
[14:18] <MartijnVdS> and you can't reconfigure on the fly
[14:18] <MartijnVdS> well you can but it's a lot of work :)
[14:18] <AlanBell> well you can, but reconfiguring on the fly means scanning 3 codes to change
[14:18] <Mez> AlanBell: which is a pain, and requires users not to be idiots and known when to scan those codes.
[14:19] <AlanBell> yeah
[14:26] <diplo> I had to integrate my scanners/printers with SAP
[14:26] <diplo> It was horrible :(
[14:28] <Dave2> I don't even really know what SAP is but I'm sure I could've told you that
[14:29] <diplo> One of the biggest software companies out there
[14:30] <diplo> popey loves it
[14:30] <Dave2> I know of SAP, I just don't really know what it is
[14:31] <Dave2> Other than Expensive and It Does Stuff
[14:31] <AlanBell> it is a bit like OpenERP, but bigger
[14:31] <Dave2> also Enterprise
[14:31] <diplo> And stupider and sh**
[14:31] <diplo> and stuff
[14:31] <diplo> To explain how bad, empty oracle install without our data was 120GB!!!
[14:31] <mungojerry> i'm trying to remember if i bought a particular album already (on CD) ...it's proving difficult
[14:31] <MartijnVdS> diplo: wut
[14:32] <diplo> yah, stupid :)
[14:32] <MartijnVdS> mungojerry: Alzheimer's Lite?
[14:32] <mungojerry> i think i forgot to rip it, and consequently unsure if i own it
[14:32] <Laney> you don't have a sorted CD collection?
[14:32] <Laney> sorted by genre, then artist, then year of course
[14:32] <mungojerry> i have a flight box sorted by artist
[14:32] <mungojerry> but sometimes they don't get added to the box
[14:33] <mungojerry> and worse still, a lot of bands don't even write the name of the band or album on the cd
[14:33] <mungojerry> no distinguishing marks
[14:33] <MartijnVdS> mungojerry: you don't keep the boxes?!
[14:33] <MartijnVdS> jewel cases
[14:33] <MartijnVdS> whatever
[14:33] <mungojerry> nah
[14:33]  * davmor2 is looking forward to the simple pleasures of Sausage Egg and Chips for tea hmmmmmmmmm
[14:33] <mungojerry> not even space
[14:35] <mungojerry> not enough space to store cds and boxes, just the CDs in this case http://www.maplin.co.uk/500-cd-dvd-storage-case-220968
[14:41] <bigcalm> How do people serve their music collections to all devices in a house these days?
[14:42] <einonm> bigcalm: my synology NAS does a brilliant job of that
[14:43] <bigcalm> I'd love my cable box to hook into a music collection as well. Guessing that's not going to happen any time soon
[14:44] <einonm> a lot of devices are getting DLNA added these days, including STBs. It's a shame that DLNA is a bit pants
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> the protocol is *SHUDDER*
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> however, it does work.
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> sort of.
[14:45]  * MartijnVdS pets his Synology NAS
[14:45] <MartijnVdS> my preciousss
[14:46] <einonm> A cheap 2nd hand PS3 also does the job for watching films/music/piccies on the TV
[14:47] <awilkins> I have an ancient Sempron box running MythTV
[14:47] <awilkins> But for music I just carry storage devices around and sync them when they meet
[14:47] <awilkins> 32GB USB drive, my external backup drive, and the MythTV server
[14:48]  * penguin42 must get a piece of cat5 downstairs to the other tv
[14:48] <awilkins> Not entered the HD era as yet
[14:48] <MartijnVdS> 802.11n @ 5GHz :)
[14:48] <awilkins> Still have an old SD CRT TV
[14:48] <penguin42> awilkins: Yeh me too up here
[14:48] <awilkins> MythTV box would probably have a minor fit if you asked it to do HD
[14:48] <penguin42> awilkins: I think the biggest thing stopping me replacing it is the effort of moving it
[14:49] <awilkins> 50Kg, nearly ruptured self putting it on stand
[14:49] <awilkins> Probably not strong enough to move it now, it was over 10 years ago
[14:49] <penguin42> yeh
[14:50] <penguin42> awilkins: and it's on the 1st floor...
[14:50] <awilkins> Oh great. Rain
[14:51] <awilkins> We had a single burst of lightning earlier. That was fun.
[14:51] <awilkins> I can feel the pressure change challenging my sinuses
[14:51] <awilkins> As a nation we really should investigate the feasibility of powering things with rain (yes, I know, hydroelectric)
[14:53] <penguin42> awilkins: It's hardly stopped for the last few days here - we had a clear few hours earlier
[14:58] <MartijnVdS> Or sea-foam power
[14:58] <pinky-> nutrient rich
[15:04] <Laney> http://www.introversion.co.uk/prisonarchitect/
[15:04] <Laney> looks awesome
[15:04] <SuperEngineer> honest guv, it wasn't me!  http://idle.slashdot.org/story/12/09/26/0526231/linux-forcibly-installed-on-congressmans-computer-in-act-of-terrorism?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29
[15:05] <diplo> Laney: looks pants to me :)
[15:07] <Laney> k
[15:08] <diplo> heh
[15:20] <popey> HTTP Error 503 (Service Unavailable):
[15:21] <Laney> popey: on my link?
[15:21] <Laney> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDzSOS0vzc&feature=player_embedded
[15:21] <awilkins> >-<   ; just discover we pay someone to write, and continue to maintain... a bulletin board system
[15:21] <popey> ya
[15:22] <awilkins> I mean... huh?!?!?
[15:22] <awilkins> You can download BBS software for nowt all over the web
[15:22] <awilkins> Our project management system (Redmine) even has one built in
[15:22] <awilkins> And they PAY SOMEONE TO WRITE ONE
[15:23] <awilkins> And surprise, it's rather primitive and lacking in the modern conveniences I'd expect from a BBS
[15:23] <awilkins> And this is why the government can't have nice things
[15:23] <diplo> Sounds like most companies awilkins
[15:23] <diplo> :)
[15:24] <awilkins> Oh yes, been both sides of the public / private partnership fence
[15:24] <awilkins> Same stupid dross, different office address
[15:26] <awilkins> Par example ; "Hey, yeah, we considered OpenID for our web single sign on.. and then we paid three developers for 6 months to roll our own in C#. You can use anything you like with it, as long as that's .NET too."
[15:27]  * awilkins facepalms
[15:27]  * MartijnVdS headdesks
[15:27] <awilkins> I've not seen the source code for it yet
[15:27] <awilkins> I would not be surprised if I reviewed it and find it commits one or more cardinal sins of insecurity
[15:28] <awilkins> Top suspects ; - passwords stored with [no|reversible] encryption - passwords hashed without salt - invented own cryptographic primitives
[15:29]  * Laney footdoors
[15:29] <awilkins> But those are just the semi-intelligent guesses
[15:29] <awilkins> There is, like in D&D, about a 5% chance of some critical failure I've just not thought of.
[15:30] <Leckey> you'd be surprised how many "forward thinking" IT companies are still on the .NET bandwagon
[15:31] <awilkins> When I have to write code in C#, I like it, as a language goes
[15:31] <awilkins> For doing GUIs, the MS tools climb up a set of stepladders and then wee all over Java from a great height.
[15:32] <awilkins> Although I've not had a proper play with the new Eclipse / e4 stuff
[15:32] <awilkins> So I may change my opinion of that shortly
[15:32] <MartijnVdS> http://i.imgur.com/rcSLg.jpg
[15:33] <Leckey> thing that annoys me about c#
[15:33] <Leckey> is no native json libs
[15:45] <awilkins> http://json.codeplex.com/ ?
[16:21] <Kieran> .
[16:27] <RadiumCat> >.
[16:27] <bigcalm> I don't know why the USC said that my graphics card wasn't up to playing Dust Force. No trouble at all and it's fun to play
[16:28] <bigcalm> davmor2: fix USC
[16:29] <davmor2> bigcalm: because the tag has a limit that you're card didn't meet, it doesn't mean it won't run, it is more a warning that it might not be optimal
[16:30] <bigcalm> davmor2: I think you've told me this before :)
[16:30] <bigcalm> davmor2: but the information should be more along the lines of "it might not work, give it a go anyway :)"
[16:32] <davmor2> bigcalm: it does the but says buy/install anyway
[16:32] <bigcalm> Hummz
[16:35] <samuelj> jrub
[16:36]  * SuperEngineer thinks that makes the score 2-0 to davmor2 
[16:49] <jacobw> evening
[16:50] <bigcalm> Morning
[16:54]  * jacobw pokes bigcalm with the wrong stick
[16:55] <bigcalm> jacobw: that's so very wrong
[18:21] <davmor2> jacobw: Tis alway's morning on the T'interweb
[18:31] <directhex> http://video.unity3d.com/video/6958381/unite-2012-linux-and-flash
[18:40] <popey> ubuntu sticker on her laptop :)
[18:45] <bootlkjkgf> Anything could happen in the next 90 minutes [bookmark] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/Musopen/open-source-bug-tracking
[18:49] <popey> thanks directhex
[18:50] <davmor2> directhex: nice :)
[18:50] <ali1234> canonical packaging service is only free for commercial apps right?
[18:53] <directhex> dunno
[18:53] <directhex> you'd think canonical would have fixed wizorb's broken deps
[18:53] <ali1234> ha
[18:53] <popey> no, free for free apps too
[18:54] <AlanBell> http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/ Canonical provides this packaging service free of charge for commercial apps.
[18:55] <davmor2> ali1234: yeap commercial being free of cost/or priced, but licensed non openly,  The free apps that go in the extras repo via ARB need to be packaged separately as it integrates into the system like a normal app.
[18:55] <AlanBell> so if you close it your life is easy, if you open it you have to go through the ARB?
[18:55] <ali1234> basically
[18:56] <AlanBell> wow. Close it, get it packaged then open up
[18:56] <ali1234> why even bother opening it up?
[18:57] <ali1234> also plenty of these packages have problems
[18:57] <ali1234> there doesn't seem to be a way of reporting said problems
[18:57] <ali1234> at least, not a way that actually gets the problems fixed
[18:57] <hamitron> what is the agreement like, do you sign many rights to your own app away?
[18:57] <davmor2> ali1234: what are you on about now?
[18:57] <ali1234> you can't report bugs against the packages in launchpad because the packages are all private
[18:57] <AlanBell> yeah, that has always been an issue with things that are in the partners repo too
[18:58] <ali1234> davmor2: when i find bugs in commercial software bought from software center there is no way to report bugs against those packages
[18:58] <ali1234> especially when said packages were packaged by canonical and the bugs are package bugs
[18:58] <AlanBell> and if you do report bugs the software authors are not looking in launchpad and no ubuntu developers are looking at them because they are not in the repos
[18:58] <ali1234> yeah and the authors of the software don't know anything about packaging anyway so they can't fix it if they want to
[18:59] <davmor2> ali1234: that's because we aren't going to fix it.  We don't have access to the code.  There is a link in software-center that link to the app manufactures here are my issues page
[18:59] <ali1234> davmor2: did you even read what i wrote?
[18:59] <ali1234> what if the bug is caused by "canonical packaging service"
[19:00] <ali1234> you're not going to fix your own bugs?
[19:00] <popey> some confusion here between commercial apps in usc and stuff in partner repo. not the same thing..
[19:01] <AlanBell> oh, ok
[19:01] <ali1234> AlanBell: you can't report bugs against USC stuff for exactly that reason
[19:02] <ali1234> well, actually you sort of can because of a bug in launchpad, unless it's been fixed
[19:02] <davmor2> AlanBell: Commercial Apps are not in repos,  ARB go in extras, Partner is companies that partner with us directly
[19:03] <davmor2> ali1234: you just do ubuntu-bug software-center
[19:03] <AlanBell> I don't appear to have any paid apps in software centre anyhow (just a few magazines, mostly in german)
[19:03] <ali1234> ok, i'll do that in future to report all packaging bugs against any software i buy...
[19:03] <davmor2> AlanBell: you on Quantal
[19:03] <AlanBell> davmor2: yes
[19:04] <hamitron> !quantal
[19:04] <hamitron> just checking
[19:04] <hamitron> ;)
[19:04] <davmor2> AlanBell: yeap we are in the process of testing and porting the 400+ apps at the moment, in the meantime you can do SOFTWARE_CENTER_DISTRO_CODENAME='precise'
[19:05] <AlanBell> ah ok
[19:05] <popey> handy
[19:05] <popey> davmor2, in the video John says when you buy stuff you get an email saying where to get support from.. the mail doesn't actually say that :(
[19:05] <davmor2> AlanBell: SOFTWARE_CENTER_DISTRO_CODENAME='precise' software-center  (sorry)
[19:06] <popey> I'll speak to John about it
[19:06] <davmor2> popey: the email has a link in it for refund support
[19:06] <AlanBell> davmor2: yes, I figured that bit out (except for the spelling of center)
[19:06] <popey> yeah, but not how to file a bug in the game
[19:06] <popey> which he indicated is in there
[19:07] <ali1234> i don't want support and i don't want a refund. i want you to fix the trivial bugs so that the next million people who buy it don't have to jump through the same hoops that i did
[19:07] <AlanBell> are they all just games?
[19:07] <popey> ok captain pedant
[19:07] <davmor2> popey: no he does say there is a link to them earlier and then there is a link to us in the email
[19:07] <popey> "but not how to tell us the game is broken"
[19:08] <davmor2> AlanBell: no there loads
[19:09] <davmor2> AlanBell: planners, journals, mags, books, merge tools, a stupidly expensive minisipserver etc
[19:09] <AlanBell> what is the sip server called?
[19:10] <davmor2> AlanBell: it isn't released yet I don't think but will be by tomorrow unless they don't get they need to release it
[19:12] <davmor2> AlanBell: minisipserver is the name of it when it is available at a meagre $199
[19:12] <AlanBell> xeoma looks interesting
[19:12] <popey> heh
[19:12] <davmor2> AlanBell: security camera
[19:12] <AlanBell> yeah, I am just looking for things that are not games and not ebooks
[19:13] <davmor2> AlanBell: dayjournal if that is released now is quite funky, very simple but does what it say on the tin, although again that was tested today so might not be out yet
[19:14] <ali1234> wow this guy talking about flash is actually really interesting
[19:14] <ali1234> explaining how they use llvm to turn unity source into actionscript
[19:15] <AlanBell> Sistema de facturacion e Inventario Akane looks interesting, but not very translated
[19:17] <davmor2> AlanBell: Yeah it's meant to be a half decent Accounty type system from what I can figure
[19:18] <AlanBell> well having got to the end of the list I think all the high value things that I want are already Free Software
[19:19] <AlanBell> Vovoid VSXu might be good
[19:22] <davmor2> AlanBell: darhon finance iirc the name is okay I can't remember if that cost anything though
[19:23] <AlanBell> yes, that looks OK, kind of a simplified gnucash from the screenshots
[19:25] <AlanBell> what do apple/Android do with old and useless stuff in the stores that probably doesn't work anymore and nobody cares?
[19:25] <davmor2> AlanBell: IntelliJ is meant to be a pretty good ide for java if that floats your boat
[19:26] <ali1234> AlanBell: they release a new version of their OS and all the old programs have to be ported or die
[19:26] <ali1234> a less cynical view is that they don't break their OS stable releases so it's just not a problem
[19:27] <davmor2> AlanBell: if you're into stocks and shares stocktracker is pretty good
[19:27] <AlanBell> davmor2: yeah, I saw that one (I have no money)
[19:28] <davmor2> AlanBell: Fairmat Academic is another financy type thing
[19:30] <AlanBell> oh ok, I missed some that are closed but have no price tag
[19:31]  * AlanBell buys fairmat academic
[19:32] <davmor2> AlanBell: long standing bug and gripe I've had that $0.00 should have install and not buy...
[19:34] <AlanBell> had to bounce through the payment processor too
[19:34] <AlanBell> it looks a bit windows95ish
[19:35] <AlanBell> alan     26653  6.0  0.9 693408 77520 ?        Sl   20:32   0:10 mono /opt/fairmat-academic/Fairmat.exe
[19:35] <AlanBell> that will be why then
[19:35] <AlanBell> ok, so the MDI interface in this doesn't work in unity
[19:36] <davmor2> AlanBell: yeah nothing we can do about that,  it needs to set up a subscription to the ppa to allow download,   hopefully to shut popey up the login screen will go away in 13.04 but we will have to wait and see
[19:36] <popey> :)
[19:36] <AlanBell> you can't resize the windows properly, you can minimise and maximise them, but not drag the corner
[19:37] <AlanBell> that is going to be a bug in the toolkit, probably not the application, probably not compiz
[19:37] <AlanBell> and it just stole keyboard focus from irssi to tell me my session expired and I need to register it to carry on
[19:39] <AlanBell> people will leave bug reports in the reviews area ali1234
[19:40] <ali1234> AlanBell: it says not to do that
[19:40] <AlanBell> thats what I was about to do, but the review window doesn't work for me
[19:40] <AlanBell> (software-center:25394): Gtk-WARNING **: Unable to show 'none': Operation not supported
[19:41] <AlanBell> davmor2: is that because I am on quantal and forcing it back to precise, or should I file a bug?
[19:43] <AlanBell> hmm, the application wants sudo access to bring up a registration page - and isn't presenting a gksudo dialog
[19:43]  * AlanBell declines
[19:44] <davmor2> AlanBell: no it's just a gtk warning, those will be killed in the coming month or post release they are non-essential and normally no seen, it's basically just finding old bit of code that gtk3 has depreciate and complaining about it
[19:44] <AlanBell> ok, I click on write your own review, a window pops up for a few seconds then goes away and that gets spat out to the terminal I launched USC from
[19:45] <ali1234> i see them all the time
[19:46] <davmor2> AlanBell: Yeah that might not work as the app technically isn't release for Quantal
[19:47] <AlanBell> davmor2: fair enough
[19:48] <davmor2> oh well time to go down stairs night all
[19:48] <AlanBell> night davmor2
[20:32] <popey> directhex, what do you think would be the minimum hardware to run the unity3d GUI on? :)
[20:32] <popey> 1.6GHz Atom (Revo) with ION GFX? :)
[20:33] <directhex> sure. depending on the complexity of your project
[20:33] <popey> takes _minutes_ to startup
[20:41] <czajkowski> dear pasta cook faster the rest of dinner is cooked
[20:41] <dogmatic69> anyone know how I can open a .tar file?
[20:42] <penguin42> tar -xvf file.tar
[20:42] <penguin42> extracts it
[20:42] <dogmatic69> ah
[20:42] <penguin42> there are a few gui things that will let you browse it etc if that's your thing
[20:42] <dogmatic69> damn amateur tutorial had -zxvf
[20:42] <penguin42> z is for compressed ones
[20:42] <dogmatic69> on a server
[20:43] <dogmatic69> would that have done .tar.bz2?
[20:43] <penguin42> z is  bz2 compress, x is extract, v is verbose, j is bzip2 compression
[20:43] <penguin42> tar --help  will list them all
[20:44] <dogmatic69> ah. First tutorial I read on 'extract bz2' was 'buzip2 ...'
[20:44] <popey> no
[20:44] <popey> you dont need the z or j
[20:44] <dogmatic69> :/
[20:44] <popey> tar auto-detects the compression and uses the right tool
[20:44] <popey> just use xvf
[20:44] <penguin42> popey: That's pretty new isn't it?
[20:44] <popey> few years
[20:45] <dogmatic69> as far as I am conserned this tar app just checks you have some random chars after the - :P
[20:45] <penguin42> exactly :-)
[20:45] <popey> heh
[20:45] <dogmatic69> *concerned
[20:45] <penguin42> popey: Anyway, it's easier to remember them for when you're creating
[20:47] <dogmatic69> popey: I downloaded it again and tar -xvf does a bz2 just fine
[20:47] <dogmatic69> thanks all
[20:48] <penguin42> popey: I've been putting the z in for nearly 20 years so it might take a little while to not do it
[20:49] <dogmatic69> :D
[20:56] <Azelphur> popey: I found out what was up with my printer, the cartridges were blocked up, left them soaking in cleaning fluid for 8 hours, it works 100% perfect now
[20:56] <popey> super
[20:56] <ali1234> directhex: can i just start writing a unity3d game without using the unity editor?
[20:56] <Azelphur> \o/
[20:56] <Azelphur> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyagw1uj8ssihnu/2012-09-26%2021.55.39.jpg
[20:57] <Azelphur> before and after lol
[20:57] <penguin42> Azelphur: Yeh inkjets tend to get like that if you leave them for a few days
[20:58] <Azelphur> penguin42: heh, mine had been abused a bit, my brother 100% drained the ink, then left it for a few months with no ink in it, so it obviously really dried up, head clean operations did nothing :(
[20:58] <Azelphur> soaking the cartridges worked though
[20:58] <ali1234> lol you never told us that
[20:58] <ali1234> you said it just stopped working one day :)
[20:58] <Azelphur> haha, I didn't put the two together until I seriously inspected the cartridge
[20:58] <ali1234> yes, a few months without ink will do that
[20:59] <Azelphur> he ultra drained it, the sponges were white inside the cartridge lol
[20:59] <Azelphur> it's all good now anyway, 30ml of ink in every cartridge, should last a while
[20:59] <Azelphur> and now I know how to fix it if it happens again, a little acetone bath :)
[21:06] <popey> ali1234, i just get a loading screen for unity3d and then a blank window :(
[21:06] <popey> window controls are there but no content inside, its running but some issue :(
[21:06] <ali1234> popey: sure. i don't want or need the editor though
[21:07] <ali1234> actually this question relates mono as a whole. if i write helloworld.cs in gedit, how do i build it with gnu make, say?
[21:08] <ali1234> every doc i see says basically to let monodevelop or some other IDE autogenerate a monstrous impenetrable build system
[21:09] <ali1234> for helloworld.c you don't even need a Makefile as the built in rules are enough
[21:09] <Laney> call the compiler?
[21:09] <Laney> dmcs helloworld.cs
[21:10] <ali1234> Laney: that's actually helpful to me. one of the problems i hit was there's about 5 different compilers in mono and i never know which one to use
[21:10] <Laney> http://www.mono-project.com/CSharp_Compiler
[21:10] <ali1234> yeah exactly
[21:10] <ali1234> so actually mcs?
[21:11] <Laney> if you have 2.11
[21:11] <Laney> which you don't if you are using the distro package
[21:11] <ali1234> oh :(
[21:11] <ali1234> see what i mean?
[21:11] <Laney> not really
[21:11] <ali1234> lol
[21:16] <ali1234> it works!
[21:40] <directhex> ali1234: NAFAIK
[22:16] <Azelphur> This looks pretty cool, http://mtxone.com/products/matrixone android tablet for like £40 and the specs don't seem too bad either
[22:17] <ali1234> yeah nice renders
[22:17] <Azelphur> there are videos of it on youtube that I checked out, it looks ok in the flesh too
[22:17] <Azelphur> for a £40 tablet, it seems very nice
[22:17] <ali1234> videos from random people who bought one?
[22:17] <popey> massive bezel
[22:17] <Azelphur> yep
[22:23] <hamitron> plus VAT, plus postage
[22:24] <Azelphur> hamitron: well, it's £37, so it'd probably come to £50 shipped
[22:31] <penguin42> oh that's impressively cheap
[22:31] <penguin42> (crap display, but still)
[22:32] <ali1234> 800x480 is plenty
[22:32] <ali1234> mobile GPUs aren't good enough to do much better than that anyway
[22:33] <ali1234> actually this tablet is more or less the same specs as an N900
[22:33] <penguin42> ali1234: Well thing slike the nexus 7 is doing 1280x800 display - so 4x the res - on an admittedly chunkier cpu
[22:33] <ali1234> except the N900 has 32GB
[22:34] <penguin42> ali1234: Other than twice the ram and a cpu clocked 2-3 times faster
[22:35] <ali1234> N900 scales up to 1GHz, can go to 1.2GHz if you hack it
[22:36] <ali1234> but pixel pushing is a function of GPU, not CPU
[22:36] <penguin42> I'm guessing that tablet is an Allwinner A10 - most of the cheap stuff is; plenty of boards around for ~$45, that's the first tablet I've seen
[22:36] <ali1234> so it depends what GPU this has
[22:36] <penguin42> ali1234: If it's the A10 it'll be a Mali400 I think
[22:36] <ali1234> cortex A8 it says
[22:37] <ali1234> same as N900
[22:37] <penguin42> ali1234: The Allwinner a10 is a cortex a8
[22:37] <ali1234> ok
[22:37] <penguin42> ali1234: Although there are lots of choices of which gpu to put with that
[22:38] <ali1234> they need to stop calling everything A<n>
[22:38] <penguin42> ali1234: Indeed (apple play the same trick)
[22:38] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh so the n900 has an OMAP3430 which has PowerVR graphics, not sure which is faster, I suspect the PowerVR
[22:38] <ali1234> the A8 is istself armv7, isn't it?
[22:39] <penguin42> ali1234: armv7 architecture
[22:39] <penguin42>    ^instruction set architecture
[22:39] <ali1234> which is newer than ARM11, which was actually armv6
[22:39] <ali1234> this stuff makes no sense
[22:39] <penguin42> ali1234: Indeed
[22:41] <ali1234> anyway, it seems good for the price
[22:42] <penguin42> yeh
[22:43] <ali1234> i would want to know more about the architecture before buying one though
[22:43] <ali1234> so they have a GPL download page?
[22:44] <ali1234> their forum has two posts on it?
[22:44] <penguin42> ali1234: I doubt it, if it is an A10 based thing there are zillions of different A10 boards out there and there is kernel source
[22:44] <penguin42> ali1234: see #arm-netbooks if interested, lots of people playing with a10 stuff (not that we're sure it is a10)
[22:44] <ali1234> yeah i'm not really convinced this is legit
[22:45] <hamitron> wish they still made the N900
[22:45] <penguin42> ali1234: It could be for that price, there are lots of things at similar price points in tv box like things, haven't seen a tablet though
[22:46] <ali1234> if they released a BSP for it i'd probably get one
[22:46] <ali1234> or even just released enough info that i could go and find a compatible one
[22:48] <penguin42> ali1234: cubieboard.org is about $45 for a bare board (but with a lot more pinned out but no tablet)
[22:48] <ali1234> no screen, no battery, no case?
[22:48] <ali1234> no power supply?
[22:48] <penguin42> yeh, just a dev board
[22:48] <ali1234> bring your own SD card?
[22:48] <penguin42> yep
[22:48] <ali1234> so you're looking at $150
[22:48] <ali1234> and lots of duct tape
[22:49] <penguin42> lots of duct tape, but not $100 - it's more of a dev board not a tablet
[22:49] <penguin42> ali1234: It has things like ether and sata pinned out
[22:49] <ali1234> yeah. dev board for what though?
[22:49] <penguin42> ali1234: like a pi is , but with a decent CPU and networking and ram
[22:49] <ali1234> the point of a dev board is to test your software for use in a tablet or something
[22:50] <penguin42> ali1234: they should make a nice little NAS or media player with the addition of a box
[22:50] <ali1234> if you just want to make "apps" (which is really all the Pi is actually good for btw) then a dev board is not useful
[22:50] <penguin42> shrug
[22:51] <ali1234> beside,s i have plenty of boards i could use to make a NAS
[22:51] <ali1234> i also have a NAS
[22:52] <penguin42> ali1234: My point really was about the cost, I'm just saying that tablets price is not stupidly low if you can build a low qunatity board for ~$45
[22:52] <ali1234> sure
[22:52] <ali1234> it's possible for it to be real
[22:52] <ali1234> that doesn't mean it is though
[22:52] <penguin42> true
[22:52] <ali1234> if multiple people have bought and received them i'd expect more than 2 posts on their forum
[22:52] <ali1234> literally 2 posts, not two threads
[22:53] <ali1234> both fromt he same user i think
[22:53] <ali1234> what i don't understand is if someone wants to make a cheap educational computer, why are they putting in cutting edge (and heavily patented) GPUs and stuff?
[22:54] <penguin42> ali1234: They're not, they're just buying a cheap chip that includes CPU and GPU
[22:54] <ali1234> the chinese can put a SNES inside a game controller for $5
[22:54] <ali1234> retail
[22:54] <ali1234> so "it's cheap" is not a convincing argument
[22:54] <directhex> you'd be amazed at ust how terrifyingly bad some cheap arm SoC implementations can be
[22:55] <directhex> as in bafflingly insane corners being cut
[22:55] <ali1234> true
[22:55] <penguin42> directhex: Got some good examples?
[22:55] <ali1234> but if you're not allowed to know about how it works, what does it matter?
[22:55] <ali1234> penguin42: i do
[22:55] <directhex> penguin42: the USB stack on the raspberry pi's broadcom, for example
[22:55] <penguin42> directhex: Oh yes
[22:55] <ali1234> oh the chinese MIPS chips make broadcom look like geniuses seriously
[22:56] <penguin42> ali1234: I agree on having a closed gpu, it doesn't do much good for education
[22:56] <directhex> ali1234: are those missing hardware FPUs? nobody in #debian-mips answered me
[22:56] <ali1234> god knows
[22:56] <ali1234> probably
[22:56] <penguin42> ali1234: But there again I don't understand the point of an educational computer given what you can do with a 2 year old pc
[22:56] <directhex> penguin42: scope
[22:56] <penguin42> scope?
[22:56] <ali1234> penguin42: PCs are clunky, fragile, unportable, and expensive
[22:57] <directhex> penguin42: computer science was FAR more alive during the bbc era than when every family had an amazing multi-ghz pc
[22:57] <ali1234> yes!
[22:57] <ali1234> the BBC came with full documentation
[22:57] <directhex> we desperately need a new bbc model b
[22:57] <ali1234> i even remember my amiga came with circuit diagrams
[22:57] <directhex> and a new ecosystem of shitty alternatives
[22:57] <directhex> some of which may be excessively welsh
[22:57] <penguin42> directhex: I'm not actually sure I agree, I grew up on a model B and programmed it down to the bone, but you can do pretty much the same on a well chosen cheap pc
[22:57] <ali1234> CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS
[22:57] <ali1234> imagine that
[22:57] <directhex> penguin42: can, or do?
[22:58] <ali1234> penguin42: of course. all you need to do is load up a BBC emulator...
[22:58] <directhex> penguin42: nobody - *NOBODY* - other than the nerdiest of nerds uses a pc for anything but facebook these days
[22:58] <penguin42> directhex: can, very rarely do - I know a few people who've written their own OSs that boot off a floppy image on a PC
[22:58] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh my Beeb emulator is one of the well known ones :-)
[22:59] <AlanBell> http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Raspberry-Pi-Schematics-R1.0.pdf
[22:59] <penguin42> directhex: But that's not because you can't - I'm not sure the number of nerds has decreased, I think it's purely that there have been an increased number of non-nerds
[23:00] <penguin42> The attraction of the pi is it's cheap enough (and light and small enough) to be disposable - i.e. strappable to weather balloons or giveable to kids
[23:00] <ali1234> AlanBell: yeah but the amiga had discrete chips for each part
[23:01] <AlanBell> ali1234: it did, paula, denise, the blitter/blimmer and a few others
[23:01] <ali1234> the raspberry pi isn't much more than a breakout board for BCM2835
[23:01] <penguin42> directhex: Look at the number of hack spaces and similar that there are now with people doing things; I don't believe the nerdyness has disappeared; it's just that it's easier these days to drive your IO from a $5 USB->IO lead from perl/python/etc than it is to go poking in sheila
[23:01] <AlanBell> Agnus
[23:01] <ali1234> penguin42: not if you want to do anything more advanced than control some fairy lights it isn't
[23:01] <penguin42> AlanBell: Oh heck, what was Agnus?
[23:01] <ali1234> agnus was memory controller
[23:02] <ali1234> fat agnus allowed 1MB of "chip memory" (what we'd call GPU memory now
[23:02] <penguin42> ali1234: I bet you can drive the IO's on a USB parallel adapter as fast as you could drive the IO on a user port on a model B (I think!)
[23:02] <ali1234> or was it fatter agnus?
[23:02] <ali1234> i forget
[23:02] <penguin42> ali1234: Ah you see, I was a Beeb/Archimedes guy, never did buy an Amiga
[23:02] <directhex> penguin42: we don't need the ppc b because of the hardware, we need the culture it fostered
[23:02] <ali1234> yes!
[23:02] <penguin42> directhex: But my point is the culture is still here - it's just that there are more non-geeks around
[23:03] <directhex> we need schools teaching super young kids to code, we need kids enthused about the concept
[23:03] <ali1234> it's not about teaching how to code
[23:03] <directhex> we need to end all IT teaching in schools immediately
[23:03] <ali1234> it's about teaching how to be curious, and to solve problems on their own
[23:03] <directhex> nothing's done more to hurt computer science than bloody secretary training GCSEs
[23:03] <ali1234> any one can cut and paste some code and change a few lines
[23:03] <penguin42> directhex: Oh I don't know, I think the IT teaching is a separate problem
[23:03] <ali1234> it's about teaching how to *invent*
[23:04] <directhex> bedtime. crazy early start tomorrow.
[23:04]  * penguin42 is on holiday tomorrow - yawn :-)
[23:04] <ali1234> example: would this be possible on a raspberry pi? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphex_Twin#ZX81_competition
[23:04] <penguin42> yes
[23:04] <ali1234> i would say no
[23:05] <directhex> cat /dev/urandom > /dev/dsp
[23:05] <directhex> DONE
[23:05] <penguin42> ali1234: Yeh but that's because of the demise of analog tv's
[23:05] <ali1234> no, and no
[23:06] <ali1234> you couldn't do something like this on a raspberry pi because the kind of gpu registers you'd need to access to do it are not accessable from the arm core
[23:06] <ali1234> and the reason for that is because a large part of how the BCM part is designed is about limiting what can be done with it
[23:06] <penguin42> ali1234: you are aware of the pc speaker sound kernel module aren't you - the one which does /dev/dsp by modulating the normal PC speaker wired to an io line?
[23:06] <penguin42> ali1234: I agree the bcm is a really bad choice
[23:06] <ali1234> what does this have to do with anything?
[23:07] <ali1234> the problem is that everything you can do with a raspberry pi has already been done
[23:07] <penguin42> ali1234: my point is you can do that type of hack on pretty much anything
[23:07] <penguin42> ali1234: Hmm no, actually the nice thing with the PI is that because it's got such a low spec cpu and ram the really neat things will be people doing stuff which seem impossible in that spec
[23:08] <ali1234> no, they won't
[23:08] <ali1234> what exactly is impressive in 256mb of ram?
[23:08] <ali1234> and a opengl GPU?
[23:08] <penguin42> ali1234: The problem with the PC is that you can always find a faster one with more memory, the Pi can't do that
[23:08] <penguin42> ali1234: It's still 256mb of ram and a poor gpu compared to a PC
[23:09] <ali1234> for the kind of software a child would write?
[23:10] <ali1234> what software actually needs that much memory? a video editing program perhaps?
[23:10] <ali1234> you think some 7 year old is going to rewrite final cut pro?
[23:10] <ali1234> that would be impressive, sure. it's not going to happen though
[23:11] <AlanBell> opengl is good though
[23:11] <hamitron> stops you using huge textures
[23:11] <penguin42> ali1234: I think they'll try and write big demos and games
[23:11] <ali1234> opengl is good but you can't really do clever hacks with it, because it is an abstraction
[23:11] <AlanBell> meh to textures and clever hacks
[23:12] <ali1234> opengl killed the demo scene for about 10 years
[23:12] <ali1234> until GPUs got to the point where they caught up with what machine code hackers could do on an amiga
[23:13] <hamitron> I personally think it will be the more advanced users building collections of software to be functional with that hardware, will be the best thing.... I can't see kids pushing it with personal apps
[23:13] <penguin42> ali1234: Some of the GPUs on some of the little ARMs have been reverse engineered to some degree
[23:13] <Darael> It is a nigh-universal fact in human history that people say the past was better than the present.  I see that in this conversation.
[23:14] <penguin42> ali1234: Did you ever burn out your user port VIA on a model B though?
[23:14] <ali1234> no
[23:14] <penguin42> ali1234: I say it's probably a much better idea to do the IO down something like USB for most things :-)
[23:15] <penguin42> one of my B's has a few bits of wiring over the scorch marks :-)
[23:15] <ali1234> Darael: it's a demonstrable fact that IT education went downhill when PCs were introduced in to schools, and fixing that was one of the goals of the pi.
[23:16] <hamitron> imo the pi won't do that
[23:16] <penguin42> hamitron: Agreed
[23:16] <ali1234> in fact the only goal really
[23:16] <hamitron> but I'll have fun using it anyway
[23:16] <hamitron> ;)
[23:16] <ali1234> microsoft pushed PCs into schools to create a large number of office worker drones for their customers
[23:16] <penguin42> haha
[23:17] <ali1234> broadcom is pushing the pi into schools to create a large number of shovelware producing drones to fill up the app stores of the customers
[23:17] <Darael> ali1234: That I would agree with.  The implication that it was better when people /had/ to do complicated (and very interesting, certainly) things to get fun things working is what I was referring to, not the horrible state of IT education at present.
[23:17] <ali1234> neither is really about eduction, at least not any kind of education that produces innovation
[23:18] <ali1234> teaching office is a type of education, after all
[23:18] <penguin42> ali1234: I don't know about that; I think 'innovation' comes a bit from knowing what's possible/hard and having tools that you can use
[23:18] <hamitron> what upsets me, is how "geeks" often don't learn basic principles in computing (and electronics), because "it is not needed"
[23:18] <penguin42> but there again I'm alwys somewhat disbelieving when anyone says 'innovation'
[23:19] <hamitron> and it even goes further back to not even learning mathematics
[23:19] <ali1234> mathematics is all about innovation
[23:20] <penguin42> hamitron: Again, I think that just comes back to being more geeks; some of whom are now content to wrangle stuff at a higher level, and I suspect just as many at the low level
[23:20] <ali1234> if they are content to do that they are by definition not geeks
[23:21] <hamitron> I just feel you are restricting innovation, if you restrict users to restricted tools
[23:21] <penguin42> ali1234: I'm not sure, there are guys who know a heck of a lot more about higher up in the stack and do some crazy things with them that I haven't got a clue about; but I know how to debug something from a scope upwards
[23:23] <hamitron> I read something today on a site about C programming.... it claimed nobody worries about wasting 2 bytes in each loop these days and stuff
[23:24] <hamitron> such a shame....
[23:25] <penguin42> hamitron: but these days what matters is stuff like cache hit ratios and tlb misses rather than necessarily the cycle count of how many add instructions you have - and that's a lot harder to follow
[23:25] <ali1234> that's an argument i often see
[23:25] <penguin42> ali1234: It's *mostly* true sadly, when one cache hit can eat a few hundred cycles
[23:26] <ali1234> and what it basically boils down to is "things are more complicated now so we should not teach them. instead we should only teach the same things we have taught before, or stop teaching them entirely"
[23:26] <hamitron> why not worry about both?
[23:26] <penguin42> hamitron: If youv'e got the time then I agree
[23:27] <hamitron> but users from their first teachings, are now not worried about defining the correct data types from what I've seen
[23:27] <ali1234> you know, even an 8 bit CPU is a lot more complicated than a few logic gates. does that mean that in the 80s they should have just done boolean logic 101 and then said "but nobody worries about that any more"
[23:27] <penguin42> hamitron: Actually if anything the data types are the critical bits
[23:27] <ali1234> and then gone straight on to how to make a database in pascal
[23:27] <penguin42> ali1234: Plenty of courses did
[23:28] <penguin42> ali1234: Certainly when I was doing CS undergrad in the early 90's teaching electronics/basic logic cirtcuits was starting to go out
[23:28] <hamitron> penguin42, I agree, but people seem to just not worry now
[23:28] <penguin42> hamitron: But then you end up with someone writing the whole thing in python/javascript and wondering why it's slow
[23:28] <hamitron> yeh :/
[23:29] <ali1234> penguin42: on my course in 2002 it covered everything from boolean logic up to how to design a TLB
[23:29] <penguin42> ali1234: Was that a computer engineering degree or generic CS ?
[23:29] <ali1234> including "how to make a flip from from gates"
[23:29] <ali1234> it was a generic CS degree
[23:30] <penguin42> ali1234: Hmm that was a good course; but did you elect to take that route or could you have gone more databasey?
[23:30] <ali1234> the course also covered how to wwrite an OS process manager in MIPS assembler
[23:30] <ali1234> it covered database design too
[23:30] <ali1234> these were all core modules
[23:30] <hamitron> some just teaching higher level though
[23:30] <hamitron> :/
[23:31] <penguin42> ali1234: Ours was 68k assembler on Atari's :-)
[23:31] <hamitron> I never did the higher level, because I studied electronic engineering ;)
[23:31] <ali1234> you could choose to stay on a particular track and get more advanced
[23:31] <ali1234> to the architecture course got even more crazy. or you could go down the AI/robotics route
[23:32] <ali1234> oh the core modules also covered graphics from GPU pipelines up to high level opengl, and also raytracing
[23:32] <penguin42> hamitron: Yeh it's like a few years ago I worked with a bunch of serious analog guys, doing high speed serial transceivers, they could wrangle their smith charts in seriously scary ways but didn't know hex, but hey it's just different bits of skilsl
[23:33] <ali1234> back then it was actually allowed to understand the graphics pipeline in an SGI machine
[23:33] <penguin42> ali1234: Interesting, for us a lot of that was optional that elected, I did the 3d graphics course (and my M.Sc was a lot about GPU pipelines back in the days of large SGI kit)
[23:33] <ali1234> actually some of this stuff i did must have been optional. can't remember what though
[23:34] <hamitron> what is the best route to learn 3d programming now?
[23:34] <ali1234> the core stuff was very comprehensive though
[23:34] <ali1234> i think i did the 3d graphics course higher level too
[23:34] <ali1234> one of the optional courses i didn't do was the high level compiler design one
[23:34] <penguin42> hamitron: I think if I was trying to learn it now I'd probably do something like learn OpenGL via something like python
[23:34] <hamitron> I've dabbled in bits out of interest, but there seems to be 2 routes..... start from the beginning, or miss it out
[23:34] <ali1234> because the basic level one just destroyed me
[23:35]  * penguin42 did some OpenGL a few years back, but nothing serious
[23:35] <hamitron> I'd rather use C tbh
[23:35] <ali1234> bu basically the core contained everything about how a computer works from logic gates up to UI design (that was a truely horrible course btw, and the only one we had to do on windows machines)
[23:35] <penguin42> hamitron: It's easy enough then to write some OpenGL C
[23:36] <ali1234> and i do mean *everything*
[23:36] <penguin42> ali1234: Where was that?
[23:36] <ali1234> manchester
[23:36] <penguin42> ali1234: Haha so was I :-)
[23:36] <penguin42> ali1234: And I thought they'd gone all Javay
[23:36] <ali1234> there was a java course
[23:37] <ali1234> there was a C course and a list course too
[23:37] <hamitron> penguin42, fixed function pipeline?
[23:37] <hamitron> or the new thingy
[23:37] <ali1234> learn fixed function first
[23:37] <ali1234> but learn how it works, not just how to use it
[23:37] <hamitron> one of my books says not to
[23:37] <ali1234> (see that's the key in learning anything)
[23:37] <hamitron> yeh, that is my thinking
[23:37] <hamitron> :)
[23:38] <ali1234> fixed function is a subset of the new stuff
[23:38] <ali1234> so if you learn how fixed function does what it does, then you'll under stand how not having a fixed function is so much better, and what to do with the bits you have, at least how to recreate the ff stuff
[23:39] <hamitron> tbh, I've only done bits of fixed function stuff so far
[23:40] <hamitron> biggest problem (as is often the case), is time
[23:40] <ali1234> you need to grasp the ideas of vector and matrix math, quaternions, projections, etc
[23:40] <penguin42> hamitron: Yeh I dabbled with OpenGL when it first came out, and I had a bit more of a play a few years ago, but never had the time to really get the newer stuff
[23:42] <hamitron> I think some of the books I have, try to get you creating too nicer stuff too fast
[23:42] <hamitron> with the intention of keeping users interested
[23:43] <hamitron> skimp on some stuff
[23:43] <hamitron> but this is how things seem to be
[23:43] <hamitron> ;)
[23:44] <hamitron> ali1234, penguin42, ty, you've helped convince me I'm right wanting to look at older stuff a little more
[23:45] <ali1234> more knowledge is never a bad thing
[23:45] <hamitron> aye
[23:45] <ali1234> sometimes it takes longer to digest it though
[23:46] <hamitron> but I enjoy getting that knowledge anyway
[23:46] <hamitron> even if it is not used so much
[23:46] <hamitron> prefer that, to doing stuff that just seems to "be done this way, cuz it is"
[23:49] <hamitron> ali1234, does your game compile on windows btw?
[23:49] <ali1234> it has done in the past
[23:51] <hamitron> I seem to be turning into a windows user
[23:51] <hamitron> :/