[00:28] <ali1234> wow, maybe that ultraparanoid guy in here the other day was actually right
[00:32] <penguin42> which one?
[00:33] <hamitron> is £580 too much to spend on scalextric?
[00:33] <hamitron> errr, wrong chan
[00:34] <ali1234> yes, it is too much
[00:34] <hamitron> ;p
[00:35] <ali1234> penguin42: i forgot his name but he claimed that the government kept installing some monitoring software on his PC using fake adobe updates, and that's why he switched to linux... but then ubuntu offered him a (legit) flash update
[00:35] <penguin42> ah
[00:35] <ali1234> at least legit in the sense it was correctyly signed by canonical
[00:35] <hamitron> hehe, that was amusing
[00:36] <penguin42> ali1234: Adobe did say that they believed it was only Windows & Mac versions that were signed (and I'm not sure what products) - but hey
[00:36] <ali1234> well
[00:36] <ali1234> that means *adobe* only signed windows and mac software with it. the people who stole it could have used it to sign anything
[00:37] <ali1234> i forgot te name of the tracking software he claimed to have... let me check logs...
[00:38] <hamitron> still don't think it is a reason to not update stuff from the official ubuntu sources
[00:38] <ali1234> absolutely not
[00:38] <ali1234> and by not doing so his machine was less secure
[00:38] <ali1234> which i pointed out :)
[00:38] <penguin42> ali1234: No, what Adobe reported was that the breakin managed to sign stuff on the machine, and that the key was held in a hardware cryptography module that hadn't been compromised, so the key itself wasn't released
[00:38] <ali1234> penguin42: ah i see
[00:38] <ali1234> fair enough then
[00:40] <ali1234> finspy
[02:06] <ali1234> can i enable "focus follows mouse" for just some specific windows?
[02:06] <ali1234> specifically "all blender windows"
[02:07] <ali1234> (with compiz)
[06:13] <knightwise> hey everyone
[07:34] <knightwise> TGIF people !
[07:38] <popey> +1
[07:46] <Azelphur> anyone know how to turn off touchpad scrolling in Lubuntu
[07:51] <Azelphur> did it with synclient \o/
[07:52] <popey> I was going to suggest gpointing-device-settings
[07:53] <pinky-> morning all, I just see on news Hamilton is moving to Mercedes.. oh what a fool
[07:53] <Azelphur> hehe, just needed to turn off vert scroll, it does not work well at all on this elonex webbook :P
[07:57] <popey> lol, you bought one of those pieces of crap?
[07:57] <popey> morning theopensourcerer
[07:58] <theopensourcerer> \o/ popey
[07:58] <christel> theopensourcerer, popey :)
[07:58] <christel> hullu hullu
[07:58] <theopensourcerer> It's FFFFRRRRIIIIDDDDAAAAYYYY :-D
[07:59] <theopensourcerer> And end of the month - Invoicing day :-D :-D :-D
[07:59] <theopensourcerer> Payday :-D
[07:59] <theopensourcerer> Expenses day :-D
[07:59] <christel> indeed (to all of the above!)
[07:59] <christel> :)
[07:59] <christel> and in my case "boy wonder going away to see the inlaws for the weekend" day! tomorrow i shall SLEEP
[07:59]  * AlanBell hunts for receipts and tickets and such
[08:00] <theopensourcerer> lol
[08:00] <christel> AlanBell: i want to go film more stuff! i had so much fun yesterday
[08:01]  * theopensourcerer keeps his expenses record up-to-date on OpenERP so has only a few more items to add from yesterday
[08:01] <theopensourcerer> What were you filming christel?
[08:02] <theopensourcerer> kewl - http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/a-new-google-app-gives-you-local-information-before-you-ask-for-it/
[08:02] <Azelphur> Is there any way to make it so that you don't need to type your password to connect to a wifi network?
[08:02] <christel> a couple of scenes for our next movie! we were filming tom price :)
[08:02] <christel> the guy who played PC Andy in torchwood
[08:02] <christel> he was great
[08:02] <Azelphur> theopensourcerer: fun :)
[08:03] <theopensourcerer> christel: Were you up at the Bourne Woods then?
[08:03] <christel> i was knackered afterwards mind, but it was so much fun
[08:03] <christel> we filmed out in lasham at black hangar studios
[08:03] <theopensourcerer> "knackered" such a British word... Anyone would think you were a native ;-)
[08:03] <christel> hehe
[08:04] <theopensourcerer> "It’s always running in the background, so it knows where you are..."
[08:11] <theopensourcerer> This sounds great - $99 16 core, 13Ghz 26 gigaflops - want it. arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/09/99-raspberry-pi-sized-supercomputer-touted-in-kickstarter-project/
[08:14] <JamesTait> Happy Friday, folks! :-D
[08:15] <popey> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adapteva/parallella-a-supercomputer-for-everyone
[08:15] <popey> 1m45s
[08:15] <popey> Ubuntu desktop :)
[08:15] <czajkowski> herrro
[08:22] <pinky-> I'm at dentist later for checkup, ett-ho
[08:22] <theopensourcerer> popey: That looks really cool. I think Libertus Solutions should support that project. Will discuss with AlanBell shortly.
[08:25] <mattt> morning morning morning
[08:35] <bigcalm> Ok, you can relax, I have returned!
[08:38] <christel> oh good! ;)
[08:38]  * mattt relaxes
[08:38] <bigcalm> Now that's a wink to be concerned about
[08:41] <daubers> Hey Miss czajkowski - What's the higlights in the CC changes?
[08:42] <popey> CC changes
[08:42] <popey> ?
[08:42] <czajkowski> CC?
[08:42] <czajkowski> do you mean the Code of Coduct ?
[08:42] <bigcalm> That would be coc
[08:42] <AlanBell> CoC
[08:43] <bigcalm> CC, to me, is Credit Card or Creative Commons
[08:43] <czajkowski> or community council
[08:43] <bigcalm> Or Carbon Copy
[08:43] <daubers> czajkowski: Yeah, that one :)
[08:43] <daubers> The blog post I saw called it CC...... so I just went with the herd
[08:44] <czajkowski> daubers: anyways to answer your question, we took the feedback we had received at UDS last in our session and put that in so removed some wording and replaced some of the word ubuntu in there to make reusable also
[08:44] <czajkowski> Laney: have you see the call for more feedback based on the UDS session
[08:44] <Laney> the what?
[08:44] <Laney> no
[08:44] <daubers> czajkowski: Ah ok, so mainly rewording of the same statements?
[08:45] <mattt> daubers: plus FA-like fines for racial abuse
[08:45] <mattt> it's at the bottom
[08:45] <AlanBell> daubers: I think this one merges the original code of conduct with the separate leadership code of conduct so the diff is quite large
[08:45] <czajkowski> Laney: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/09/27/code-of-conduct-v2-request-for-feedback/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=code-of-conduct-v2-request-for-feedback
[08:45] <czajkowski> AlanBell: well no we had done that merge months ago and that was already out there
[08:46] <czajkowski> so was he talking about the chance since before last uds to now ?
[08:46] <Laney> oh, fridge
[08:46] <czajkowski> or in general
[08:46] <AlanBell> oh OK, in that case a diff should work
[08:46] <Laney> czajkowski: can you edit that?
[08:46] <Laney> the fridge calendar
[08:46] <czajkowski> no
[08:46] <daubers> I see a license has been added to the bottom too
[08:46] <Laney> who can?
[08:46] <czajkowski> it is in fact evil
[08:46] <czajkowski> dholbach
[08:46] <Laney> ta
[08:46] <czajkowski> Laney: whats wrong ?
[08:47] <Laney> we moved some dmb meetings
[08:47] <daubers> a brief scan show nothing I object to, so I shall carry on as if nothing had happened :)
[08:47] <czajkowski> Laney: ahh go to #ubuntu-news
[08:47] <czajkowski> and see their wiki
[08:47] <czajkowski> Laney: tells you how to do stuff
[08:48] <Laney> can I just abuse dholbach directly :-)
[08:50] <AlanBell> daubers: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~sabdfl/ubuntu-codeofconduct/v2-draft/revision/27?remember=25
[08:50] <AlanBell> I think
[08:52] <czajkowski> Laney: bet sponsor him then poke him
[08:52] <czajkowski> that way he'll favour being abused :p
[08:52] <Laney> I donated to his marathon thing; he's my bitch now :>
[08:53] <xnox> czajkowski: you are now known as "cz<tab>" on #ubuntu-devel thanks to Laney
[08:55] <mattt> what happened to #ubuntu-uk meetings?
[08:56]  * czajkowski smacks Laney 
[08:56] <Laney> I didn't start it!
[08:56] <czajkowski> Laney: xnox is telling tales on you
[08:57] <bigcalm> mattt: I think work got in the way for everybody
[08:57] <bigcalm> mattt: I know that's what happened to me
[08:57] <xnox> czajkowski: at 12 minutes past the irclogs will update and you can check for your self ;-)
[08:57] <xnox> czajkowski: maybe it's a hint you should hangout on #ubuntu-devel ......
[08:58] <mattt> bigcalm: yeah, it's been a busy year for a lot of people :-/
[08:58] <popey> nothing stopping someone running meetings :)
[08:58] <mattt> popey: true, let us know when the next one is then
[08:58] <bigcalm> Haha
[08:59] <popey> point
[08:59] <popey> missed
[08:59] <popey> entirely
[08:59] <bigcalm> popey: I don't think it was ;)
[08:59] <AlanBell> yeah, we should start up meetings again
[08:59]  * mattt looks at popey
[08:59] <AlanBell> I think they were too frequent and after a couple of just me talking to myself I kind of didn't get round to scheduling the next one
[09:00] <bigcalm> When I was able to attend, I found myself to be quite vocal :S
[09:00] <czajkowski> mattt: organise one if you'd like :)
[09:00] <czajkowski> then people can turn up
[09:00] <AlanBell> when would be good for people?
[09:00] <bigcalm> I'm surprised we didn't have one at oggcamp
[09:00] <mattt> czajkowski: popey's got it under control
[09:01] <czajkowski> bah
[09:02] <mattt> :P
[09:02] <mattt> AlanBell: personally, after 8 is best
[09:02] <mattt> day of week is irrelevant
[09:03] <bigcalm> I would say during office hours, but I don't think my boss would agree
[09:03] <mattt> bigcalm: yeah, too many distractions at work
[09:04] <AlanBell> mattt: feel free to edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeamMeetingAgenda
[09:04] <AlanBell> lets have a discussion just after Quantal gets released
[09:04] <mattt> AlanBell: sure, i'll need to look at previous meetings to see what the threads were
[09:05] <mattt> it'd also be nice to figure out what people want from meetings
[09:07] <Azelphur> hmm, trying to repartition my laptop, it has an extended partition inside of which is an "unknown" 3.6GB partition, any ideas what that might be?
[09:08] <bigcalm> A recovery drive?
[09:08] <Azelphur> it's a Ubuntu install
[09:08] <bigcalm> I out of ideas then :)
[09:08] <Azelphur> guess I'll just take the crazy approach and delete it
[09:09] <popey> why not mount it and have a look?
[09:09] <Azelphur> I can't, gparted can't even see what it is
[09:09] <Azelphur> does Ubuntu usually need any partitions besides the ext4 to boot?
[09:10] <Azelphur> I'm guessing not, since my PC only has the EXT4
[09:10] <Azelphur> it's probably swap that went wrong, that's my guess
[09:11] <bigcalm> Seems a bit large to be a swap, and in an extended partition? It would be quite wrong indeed
[09:12]  * Azelphur shrugs
[09:12] <Azelphur> my data is all in ext4 anyway, so it can go
[09:13]  * AlanBell enjoys waiting for remotely rebooted servers to respond to ping
[09:14] <popey> too large to be swap?
[09:14] <popey> Swap:  8267772k total
[09:14] <popey> :)
[09:14] <Azelphur> 3.6GB isn't large for swap?
[09:14] <AlanBell> not really
[09:14] <bigcalm> Not too large, just seems a bit large for swap
[09:14]  * Azelphur shrugs
[09:18] <czajkowski> popey: you just living on kickstarter these days finding all sorts of odd stuff :)
[09:23] <popey> heh
[09:24] <popey> i enjoy kickstarter, yes
[09:24] <popey> and indiegogo
[09:24] <popey> http://www.indiegogo.com/nexphone?a=1051579 not looking good
[09:26] <bigcalm> Too many android phones already out there maybe
[09:26] <mattt> i think the ubuntu wiki needs a tickle
[09:32] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[09:32]  * czajkowski slaps Laney Laura TM
[09:32] <czajkowski> really
[09:33] <bigcalm> Morning brobostigon
[09:34] <brobostigon> morning bigcalm
[09:34] <Laney> har de har
[09:34] <czajkowski> Laney: lets see what happens when you ask for stuff in my channel mister :p
[09:34] <czajkowski> cheeky fecker
[09:35]  * Laney screams HUMANITY TO OTHERS and runs away
[09:35] <czajkowski> very special lad
[09:37] <mattt> AlanBell: changed the date, hope that's ok
[09:38] <AlanBell> that will clash with everyone being in a pub in London :)
[09:40] <mattt> AlanBell: bleh ... think people will attend on a friday?
[09:40] <mattt> AlanBell: how about the wednesday?
[09:40] <AlanBell> sure
[09:40] <mattt> AlanBell: what is happening on the thurs?
[09:40] <czajkowski> mattt: release party ?
[09:41] <AlanBell> still trying to sort that out exactly, I think it will be going to a nominated pub
[09:42] <AlanBell> nothing more organised than that really, it doesn't work for us with release parties
[09:42] <mattt> czajkowski: i have no idea, hence asking :)
[09:42] <mattt> had i known, i wouldn't have asked!
[09:42] <mattt> AlanBell: ok, thanks
[09:42] <AlanBell> might try to do something more like the other teams do later in the year, more of an installfest type thing
[09:43] <AlanBell> we just can't do it on release day because the Canonical team just want to go to the pub
[09:43] <Laney> 4K!
[09:44] <czajkowski> AlanBell: well you're not tied to going to a pub either, just the uk loco has in the past just merged it into one event
[09:44] <czajkowski> it used to be a sprint week for release but not as many come for the week now
[09:44] <czajkowski> seemingly finding a pub with nice ales is a way to get them to come as well :)
[09:45] <popey> nah
[09:45] <czajkowski> Laney: 5K walks usually not 4K that's -1K and cheating
[09:45] <popey> thats more likely to get nerds coming
[09:45] <mattt> wouldn't want that
[09:48] <mattt> AlanBell: perhaps the following week after launch is best then
[09:49] <popey> the problem we had historically is we would like canonical people to come along, but they generally just want to go to a bar/pub and drink & eat and not give talks or do computer stuff
[09:49] <AlanBell> exactly
[09:49] <AlanBell> and setting up an event in competition to a pub night really isn't going to end well
[09:50] <popey> exactly
[09:50] <AlanBell> we could do something a week later
[09:50] <popey> yes
[09:50] <popey> I think that would be a good idea
[09:50] <mattt> btw i was referring to meeting, not pub/in-person meetup
[09:50] <AlanBell> oh, right
[09:51] <mattt> i don't know enough about your ubuntu ways to dictate when in person things happen :)
[09:51] <mattt> i know you guys have a tight way of doing things around here
[09:51] <AlanBell> not that tight
[09:51] <popey> !12.10
[09:51] <AlanBell> anyone can organise stuff
[09:52] <mattt> AlanBell: true, but it needs to be done right
[09:52] <mattt> otherwise it's just a waste of time
[09:52] <popey> hmm.
[09:52]  * popey will be in denmark the week after release
[09:53] <mattt> popey: great, we can use your house then
[09:53] <czajkowski> hmm thought it was the 18th
[09:53] <czajkowski> release wiki and relase party say 18th
[09:53] <mattt> 17th release?
[09:54] <czajkowski> ah nm getting date and release number mixed up
[09:54]  * mattt stares at czajkowski 
[09:54] <mattt> :P
[09:54] <czajkowski> please don't
[09:54] <czajkowski> most odd
[09:54] <mattt> ok, i'm bumping this meeting date forward, we can move it around later if it's not convenient
[09:55] <mattt> sorry for all the change spam you guys are receiving
[09:55] <popey> 1) 4.10, 2) 5.04, 3) 5.10, 4) 6.06, 5) 6.10, 6) 7.04, 7) 7.10,  8) 8.04, 9) 8.10, 10) 9.04, 11) 9.10, 12) 10.04, 13) 10.10, 14) 11.04, 15) 11.10, 16) 12.04, 17) 12.10  *\o/*
[09:56] <mattt> pompoms!
[09:58] <ali1234> so i've got a question. "Nominations to the boards and councils are at the discretion of the Community Council, however the Community Council will seek the input of the community before confirming appointments." - how exactly will the council do that? and again, who exactly are they talking about when they say "community" there?
[09:59] <Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing
[09:59] <AlanBell> they are talking about members of https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers
[09:59] <ali1234> AlanBell: yes, that's what i suspected
[09:59] <AlanBell> and what they mean is that they will hold a vote, but reserve the right to ignore the results
[09:59] <ali1234> and who decides who gets to be an ubuntu member?
[09:59] <AlanBell> the membership boards
[10:00] <AlanBell> !membership
[10:00] <ali1234> ultimately it all comes back to the council
[10:00] <ali1234> so the council (ultimately) chooses who gets to vote and still reserves the right to ignore the results :)
[10:00] <AlanBell> sure
[10:01] <ali1234> i just wish that everyone would stop using "community" interchangable to mean "ubuntu members" and "everyone who uses ubuntu"
[10:02] <ali1234> that's really all i want. too much?
[10:02] <czajkowski> yup
[10:02] <Laney> look at the link I gave
[10:02] <Laney> it doesn't mean ubuntu members
[10:03] <ali1234> Laney: the link you gave does not mention anything about the council "consulting the community"
[10:03]  * AlanBell thinks all those groups are proper subsets of ubuntumembers
[10:03] <ali1234> and indeed it only uses the word community in the sense of "Community Council"
[10:04] <Laney> it tells you who will be polled
[10:04] <Laney> how about you read it instead of using the find feature of your browser
[10:05] <ali1234> Laney: um, how about you actually answer my question instead of being obtuse. hint: the answer isn't on that page
[10:05] <ali1234> i've read it several times
[10:05] <Laney> nah i've got a better option
[10:05] <ali1234> te page does not define the "community" (lower case C) nor does it define how the Community Council (upper case C) will consult it
[10:06] <ali1234> so please, stop telling me to read a page that doesn't answer any of my questions
[10:06] <ali1234> further more, every group of people who would be polled is a subset of ubuntu members
[10:07] <bigcalm> I can't read "further more" without thinking it's part of I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue
[10:08] <ali1234> not that "who will be polled" has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the question i asked
[10:12] <AlanBell> ali1234: so the point of ubuntumembers is to define a pollable voting group really
[10:13] <ali1234> all i hear is what it doesn't mean
[10:14] <AlanBell> an open vote to the reddit/slashdot community probably isn't a particularly useful way of getting the opinion of people who are interested in the success of the project
[10:14] <ali1234> well quite
[10:14] <ali1234> i never said it was
[10:15] <AlanBell> the ubuntu community isn't everyone who uses ubuntu
[10:15] <ali1234> you're doing it again
[10:15] <AlanBell> it is everyone who considers themseves a stakeholder in the project
[10:15] <ali1234> the ubuntu community is like scotch mist
[10:15] <AlanBell> only because I typed it on two lines :)
[10:18] <ali1234> to me it feels a lot like the definition is intentionally vague so that it can constantly be modified to include/exclude undesirables
[10:19] <christel> ali1234: are you an undesirable? :o
[10:19] <ali1234> yes
[10:19] <popey> i think its kept vauge so we don't exclude people
[10:20] <ali1234> popey: partly
[10:20] <popey> i.e. if we explicitly said "the community is people who are active in their loco, forum members, developers etc" then that might discount someone who does great advocacy but doesn't fall into those buckets
[10:20] <popey> and new groups come up all the time
[10:20] <popey> e.g. AskUbuntu
[10:22] <ali1234> yes
[10:23] <popey> so when we "consult the community" we're frequently asking anyone/everyone, not just Ubuntu Members
[10:24] <ali1234> it also means that someone who contributes constantly can be excluded for unstated reasons if they disagree with the leadership
[10:24] <popey> i've never seen that happen
[10:24] <ali1234> and they can't say "well, i do all the things on the CoC"
[10:24] <popey> i've seen people excluded for stated reasons
[10:24] <popey> but actually we don't do a very good job of kicking people out
[10:25] <popey> we've had destructive people hang around and cause pain and trouble for people for a long time
[10:25] <ali1234> kicking them out?
[10:25] <popey> and had to go to some lengths to exclude
[10:25] <ali1234> kicking them out of what though?
[10:25] <ali1234> out of ubuntu members or higher level positions?
[10:25] <ali1234> or just out of the community?
[10:25] <popey> higher
[10:25] <popey> developer
[10:25] <ali1234> i'm talking about the "community" here
[10:25] <popey> developer is a subset of community
[10:26] <Daviey> developers aren't part of the community.
[10:26] <Daviey> :)
[10:26] <ali1234> is ubuntu members a subset?
[10:26] <popey> I'd say Ubuntu Members are a subset of Community
[10:26] <Daviey> naturally.
[10:26] <Daviey> it's a crazy Venn!
[10:26]  * christel tickles Daviey 
[10:26] <ali1234> so, how do you kick people out of the community who are not even ubuntu members?
[10:26]  * Daviey giggles like a little baby.
[10:27] <christel> oh my!
[10:27] <Daviey> draw a circle around them in the venn diagram
[10:27] <ali1234> it's not about explicitly kicking people out... the problem is disenfranchising them - ie acting like they don't exist when it is convenient
[10:27] <popey> sure
[10:27] <popey> examples?
[10:27] <ali1234> like when you ask the community to test the beta CD, then community means everyone and their gran
[10:28] <ali1234> but when the council is going to consult the community on appointments, then community means ubuntu members
[10:28] <ali1234> i don't have a problem with either of these things
[10:28] <czajkowski> are you sure
[10:28] <czajkowski> it sounds like you do
[10:28] <ali1234> i just wish you'd stop using community to mean different things at different times
[10:28] <popey> heh
[10:28] <czajkowski> why does it bother you so much
[10:28] <popey> i can understand taht
[10:28] <czajkowski> *shurgs* often words have multiple meanings
[10:28] <popey> its not clear
[10:29] <popey> "we ask the community"
[10:29] <popey> "Wait, which bit"
[10:29] <popey> "you know, the community"
[10:29] <popey> :)
[10:29] <bigcalm> Who's on 3rd?
[10:30] <popey> its hard to define, dunno, maybe we need "active community" and "wider community" or some other more specific terms?
[10:30] <czajkowski> popey: don't forget the inactive community, the ones that have ubuntu membership that just automatically renew
[10:30] <czajkowski> they're also part of a subset of a community
[10:30] <bigcalm> People will still shorten terms to just 'community'
[10:31] <popey> indeed, hence "or some other more specific terms" :)
[10:31] <ali1234> if you really mean "ubuntu member" then what is wrong with writing "ubuntu members"
[10:31] <popey> because often we dont mean that
[10:31] <popey> i.e. in your beta test example
[10:31] <ali1234> but if in some particular instance you do mean that
[10:31] <popey> I want the whole world to test it, not just members
[10:31] <ali1234> you can't have one word to global replace community, because then you have the same problem
[10:31] <ali1234> just be clear and specific
[10:31] <popey> no, thats not what I said
[10:31] <popey> I said have multiple terms
[10:32] <popey> which are more clearly defined
[10:32] <ali1234> if you mean "everyone in the world" then saying "community" is fine. it's almost always better to be overly specific than to be vague
[10:33] <popey> perhaps
[10:33] <popey> but then you get people who whine that they're being excluded
[10:33] <popey> "You didn't explicitly mention one legged black lesbians!"
[10:33] <ali1234> but they're not.
[10:33] <ali1234> the problem is when you say "community" to mean "everyone" and then all those people who test the beta CD think they're going to get a vote in the elections because that says community too
[10:34] <popey> fair point
[10:34] <czajkowski> it could also encourage them ali1234
[10:35] <czajkowski> many want to get more involved and become ubuntu members
[10:35] <czajkowski> just from getting involved in testing
[10:35] <ali1234> yeah but so could telling them you'll give them a million dollars
[10:35] <ali1234> and then not giving it to them
[10:35] <czajkowski> *sigh*
[10:35] <czajkowski> I have work to be doing
[10:36] <popey> dunno why you're grumpy czajkowski. ali1234 has a point
[10:36] <czajkowski> popey: not grunmp at all do wish you wouldnt say that just when I don't agree
[10:36] <czajkowski> it's a bit dismissive
[10:37] <popey> jeez
[10:37] <ali1234> funny i feel the same way :/
[10:37] <ali1234> anyway let's not get all negative
[10:41] <AlanBell> group hug
[10:44] <bigcalm> :)
[10:45] <bigcalm> Help, I'm looking at pens and inks again
[10:48] <daubers> bigcalm: Look at pron instead! It's cheaper!
[10:48] <bigcalm> daubers: I shall take your word for it ;)
[10:48] <daubers> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19744131 <- pron of the day!
[10:48] <bigcalm> At least I don't buy myself the expensive pens that I give to Hayley
[10:49] <daubers> I mean, just look at those sedimentary layers!
[10:49] <daubers> sedimentary conglomerates just sounds too rude really
[10:49] <christel> czajkowski: i suspect a lot of people dont have the time to commit to being involved in a way which enables them to apply for membership though, even if they are passionate about the distro and all that jazz :)
[11:00] <AlanBell> which is cool, and valued, they just don't get invited to vote on certain things
[11:03] <christel> sure, whilst also causing confusion to some as per ali1234s examples above -- so it might not be as simple as "getting more involved" :)
[11:12] <ali1234> it's not just about the confusion. the immediate assumption that anyone who asks questions must have some kind of problem with the system isn't very nice either
[11:13] <ali1234> and then the assumption is that they have a problem because they don't understand, so you scream at them to read the FAQ
[11:14] <ali1234> but the FAQ uses all the same unclear language
[11:14] <andylockran> bonjournai!
[11:15] <ali1234> so this is a self-fulfilling prophecy
[11:18] <AlanBell> so, ali1234, thought about applying for membership?
[11:19]  * AlanBell notes that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Restaffing has not been updated to reflect the membership board reorganisation
[11:23]  * AlanBell fixes
[11:32] <ali1234> AlanBell: i much prefer to be on the outside
[11:33] <ali1234> it's not an accident that i haven't signed the CoC either
[11:34] <ali1234> you know i had this exact same discussion in #maemo a couple of years ago, and got a similar reaction
[11:34] <christel> i am glad to hear that you didnt accidentally not sign the coc! ;)
[11:34] <ali1234> they have an automated system for their community council. anyone with more than x karma gets a vote
[11:35] <ali1234> but the community council was always totally ignored by nokia, who loved to use "community" to mean diifferent things all the time
[11:35] <ali1234> they almost never meant it in the sense of "everyone who bought an n900" and usually they were talking about commercial app developers (so about 3 people, lol)
[11:35] <christel> i have contemplated the membership route a few times but i simply don't have enough spare time in my life to commit to making sufficient contributions to pass !
[11:36] <mgdm> I was going to once upon a time, but then I got involved in other things
[11:40] <christel> i reckon i might have more spare time when the boy wonder goes to uni
[11:40] <christel> and/or when i retire
[11:42] <christel> (i can dream, right?) :)
[11:57] <bigcalm> I'm not sure I'll retire. Just die in a gutter one day will do me
[12:09] <SuperMatt> does anyone know if I can be logged in as the same user twice, once in unity and once in gnome shell?
[12:09] <AlanBell> that is probably a bad idea SuperMatt
[12:10] <SuperMatt> yeah?
[12:10] <SuperMatt> curses
[12:13] <AlanBell> I wouldn't think logging in twice to Unity with the same home directory would be a good idea either
[12:22] <bigcalm> I have a GIT problem. I've been working for so long on a branch, that I need it to fully replace the master without merging stuff. Is that possible?
[12:41] <ali1234> bigcalm: "master" is just a branch like any other. you can delete it, and rename your current branch master
[12:41] <ali1234> that might screw over anyone who is tracking master though
[12:41] <ali1234> otoh that might not matter
[12:41] <bigcalm> Everyone else has been working off of the branch
[12:42] <ali1234> there's no real reason to rename it
[12:42] <ali1234> just carry on using that branch
[12:42]  * daubers fires up abcde
[12:42] <ali1234> but if you want to rename it and you can get everyone to cooperate if anything goes wrong, then just do it
[12:43] <ali1234> git branch -d master; git checkout -b master
[12:46] <bigcalm> My boss wants our work moved to master
[12:46] <ali1234> yeah...........
[12:47] <ali1234> which master though?
[12:47] <ali1234> sounds like what he actually wants is a "blessed" repository
[12:48] <ali1234> this is probably what you should do... make a new repo with a new "master" and then push the newest code to it, and call it the blessed repo
[12:48] <bigcalm> Yeah, seems the neatest way
[12:49] <bigcalm> Irritatingly, it'll mean me moving a lot of stuff around in gitlab
[12:49] <ali1234> it shouldn't do
[12:49] <ali1234> you shouldn't have to move anything at all
[12:51] <ali1234> make a new repository then git push mybranch remote/master
[12:51] <ali1234> presto, mybranch is now in a branch called master on the remote
[12:51] <ali1234> it's still in a branch called mybranch in your loca repo, but nobody needs to ever see that
[12:56] <bigcalm> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2862590/how-to-replace-master-branch-in-git-entirely-from-another-branch
[12:56] <bigcalm> Exactly what I needed
[12:57] <ali1234> yeah that's for if you have people tracking your repo
[12:57] <ali1234> and you want them to get the changes automatically
[12:58] <bigcalm> I do
[12:58] <ali1234> and that's why you got this problem in the first place
[12:58] <ali1234> you shouldn't let people clone your work repo. then you can make whatever branches you want
[12:58] <ali1234> and people won't be able to work on them
[12:59] <ali1234> insisting that "all work goes into master" under a model like this is the same as saying "do not use branches"
[13:00] <ali1234> instead you should be pushing changes from your local branch onto the blessed/master. then nobody can see the name of your local branches
[13:01] <bigcalm> It's all in house. Some devs are active, some aren't. I wanted a method that would just sort it out for everybody. I will have to tell everybody to switch back to the master now
[13:01] <ali1234> again, which master?
[13:01] <ali1234> if everyone has a branch called master, which one is really the real master?
[13:01] <bigcalm> The one on the remote server
[13:01] <ali1234> :/
[13:02] <ali1234> a branch really is nothing more than a LOCAL bookmark somewhere into the commits
[13:02] <bigcalm> We've moved from SVN to GIT and it's quite possible that we haven't yet worked out how to do things properly :)
[13:03] <ali1234> well the big difference is everyone has a full repo
[13:03] <ali1234> everyone can make their own branches and there's no requirement for anyone else to pay attention
[13:03] <ali1234> everyone can have a completely different master on their machine
[13:04] <ali1234> master is a pretty terrible name for it really. it should be called default
[13:04] <ali1234> or something even more generic
[13:04] <bigcalm> Waited 1.5 hours for a meeting that never happened. LUNCH!
[13:36] <popey> bug 1052452
[13:36] <popey> stupid bot
[13:47] <pinky-> 2:45 coffee break, 3 sugars please.
[13:51] <pinky-> I read a review for the BSC in Southampton Street, London WC2 and it said, "Great place to learn IT and networking, but crappy printers."
[13:52] <czajkowski> pinky-: would be nice if the bot didnt show private bugs alright :/
[13:53] <pinky-> maybe crappy printers to stop peeps stealing them?
[13:53] <AlanBell> would be nice if launchpad returned a 403 so the bot could say that the bug is restricted
[13:55] <popey> anyone fancy dogfooding a compiz pre-release for 12.10 before monday?
[13:55] <pinky-> yeah 403 is better then 404
[13:59] <czajkowski> AlanBell: there is a whoe thread on this on -dev
[14:01] <SuperMatt> popey: dogfooding?
[14:03] <AlanBell> popey: go on then, I will taste the doggy treats
[14:05] <ali1234> popey: what do i have to do?
[14:06] <ali1234> update to 12.10 presumably
[14:06] <ali1234> will it work... on nvidia?
[14:07] <SuperMatt> I'm happy to test compiz too, considering I'm running dual monitor and super+w has been running slow for me for ages
[14:08] <AlanBell> ooh, you can read window titles now when zoomed out
[14:08] <ali1234> zoomed out?
[14:10] <AlanBell> yeah, if you click the launcher icon a few times it wooshes out all the windows for that application type so they are all miles away in the distance, you can now hover over them to reveal what they are
[14:10] <mungojerry> good to see unity is getting updates on 12.04 too
[14:12] <popey> sorry, on phone.. brb
[14:19] <popey> Ok, so for this hobby you will need 1) a machine running Ubuntu 12.10 and Unity. 2) the ppa:sil2100/prerelease  ppa. 3) Weak lemon drink.
[14:19] <popey> drink your weak lemon drink now!
[14:19] <pinky-> and squint with one eye
[14:20] <popey> ali1234, SuperMatt AlanBell ^^
[14:20] <SuperMatt> popey: on it like a tramp on hot chips
[14:21] <AlanBell> oh you didn't tell me it was aquarius stuff when I signed up to this plan!
[14:21] <aquarius> ahem. not me
[14:21] <aquarius> sil2100 is someone else :)
[14:21] <AlanBell> oh
[14:21] <AlanBell> I will install it then :)
[14:21]  * aquarius is sil on launchpad. No extra numbers for me :)
[14:21] <AlanBell> the original!
[14:22] <gord> i prefer later models
[14:22] <gord> has extra ports and higher definition
[14:22] <SuperMatt> popey: will I need to restart or can compiz --replace do the trick?
[14:23] <popey> i would logout/in
[14:23] <SuperMatt> figured as much
[14:23] <popey> if you find any bugs, ping me
[14:23]  * SuperMatt waits patiently for a copy operation to complete
[14:23] <SuperMatt> will do, pikachu
[14:26] <SuperMatt> what's changed exactly?
[14:26] <popey> bug fixes mostly
[14:27] <popey> but we want to make sure there's no regressions
[14:31] <popey> SuperMatt, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001985.html the "compiz" section there
[14:33] <ali1234> popey: is it going to work on nvidia? (not nouveau which doesn't work at all)
[14:33] <popey> should do
[14:38] <ali1234> is testing it with unity a requirement?
[14:38] <SuperMatt> well now
[14:38] <ali1234> i'm sure i can find lots of bugs with gnome classic (assuming it still exists)
[14:38] <SuperMatt> it's working fine for me, don't see anything different to how it was. I can only assume it's fixed bugs I haven't come across :P
[14:39] <ali1234> you never had the white windows bug?
[14:39] <ali1234> (not fixed btw, pushed back to 0.9.9)
[14:39] <SuperMatt> but it's still *ludicrously* slow when I have lots of windows and press super+w
[14:39] <SuperMatt> I've never seen white windows, no
[14:39] <mungojerry> saw a viewsonic 22 inch touchscreen running android today, £349
[15:05] <bigcalm> 22" would be good for the bedroom
[15:06] <bigcalm> Which now sound terrible
[15:14] <christel> :o
[15:15] <mattt> :)
[15:15] <mungojerry> was a bit sluggish but nice price
[15:15] <mungojerry> running 4.0, so prob bit better with 4.1
[15:16] <SuperMatt> popey: I was wrong about my sluggishness not going, it has infact gone completely!
[15:16] <popey> \o/
[15:16] <SuperMatt> my compiz didn't actually update :P
[15:16] <popey> haha
[15:17] <SuperMatt> so I forced it and it's working great now
[15:17] <popey> win. thanks, thats good to hear
[15:17] <SuperMatt> :)
[15:17] <SuperMatt> I take it this is going to land before 12.10's release date?
[15:20] <popey> yes, early next week
[15:20] <popey> and unity too next week
[15:20] <SuperMatt> awesome
[15:20] <SuperMatt> ooh, what's coming?
[15:20] <popey> bug fixes :)
[15:20] <SuperMatt> epic
[15:21] <popey> i really appreciate the testing
[15:22] <SuperMatt> no probs
[15:22] <SuperMatt> that little bug was driving me up the wall
[15:28] <pinky-> new The Hobbit poster.. freaky http://i.imgur.com/jy0dw.jpg
[15:28] <SuperMatt> problem with that hobbit poster... I see no hobbit
[15:30] <pinky-> yeah I guess, no BIG hairy feet
[15:36] <bigcalm> Dave2: have you been posing for posters again?
[15:37] <bigcalm> I blame christel for that comment
[15:37] <pinky-> hehe the idlers in this channel did come to mind and that's what made me post:)
[15:37] <christel> hmm?
[15:39] <bigcalm> Never mind :)
[15:40] <bigcalm> What hell? A gritter truck just went of the road
[15:41] <SuperMatt> *off*?
[15:41] <daubers> bigcalm: Thats not for ice, giant slugs have invaded. Gritter trucks are out best defence!
[15:41] <popey> that poster doesn't conform to the "there are only 13 types of movie poster" rule. http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/64047251.html
[15:41] <SuperMatt> hurr
[15:41] <bigcalm> daubers: heh
[15:47] <pinky-> beards are back in fashion, we can all go outside now. I'm getting better every day.
[15:47] <Dave2> bigcalm, :(
[15:48] <pinky-> walk for miles and never see a smile
[15:49]  * pinky- wanders off and idles
[15:50] <bigcalm> Dave2: I said I wasn't at fault for the comment ;)
[15:50] <bigcalm> christel is a bad influence
[15:51] <christel> but i've never spoken with pinky- so i dont get how it is my fault :(
[15:51] <bigcalm> Eh? I was talking about me referring to Dave2 as a hobbit
[15:52] <christel> i see, now i am even more lost -- i missed you referring to him as a hobbit!
[15:53] <bigcalm> christel: it was indirect
 new The Hobbit poster.. freaky http://i.imgur.com/jy0dw.jpg
 Dave2: have you been posing for posters again?
[15:53] <pinky-> it's based upon the fact that everybody is too serious in here and now we have drama:/ sorry
[15:54] <bigcalm> More confusion I think :)
[15:56] <christel> bigcalm: you cant make indirect comments, they are way too subtle for my simple mind ;)
[15:56] <christel> pinky-: the internet is for srs drama! ;)
[15:57] <daubers> christel: Are you saying that the internet is HBO?
[15:57] <christel> why yes! :P
[15:59] <pinky-> I'm just gonna keep my trap shut
[15:59] <pinky-> :)
[16:02] <pinky-> and try to stay on-topic at all times
[16:02] <christel> good
[16:02]  * christel nods
[16:03] <pinky-> yes I know it's best
[16:03] <christel> yes, fewer people get hurt that way i guess
[16:03]  * christel nods
[16:03] <pinky-> srs drama is srs business
[16:04] <popey> http://www.dramabutton.com/
[16:06] <gebbione> what software can i use to monitor my adsl connectivity?
[16:07] <bigcalm> Short, sweet and to the point
[16:08] <bigcalm> gebbione: but you're on a cable connection
[16:09] <gebbione> just remove adsl from my sentence
[16:09] <bigcalm> :)
[16:09] <bigcalm> I was nit picking
[16:09] <bigcalm> Back to work I go
[16:11] <popey> gebbione, what do you want to monitor?
[16:11] <bigcalm> Grrrrrrrrrr. I missed the reduced price phpstorm because I was waiting on my boss to get back to me. Grumble, double grumble
[16:11] <gebbione> just create a project on github and get it freee
[16:12] <bigcalm> I use it for work, I don't believe in ripping people off if I can avoid it
[16:43] <pinky-> swings and roundabouts http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6368227 and http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US663948
[16:45] <bigcalm> I guess the swing as we know it had to be invented at some point
[16:45] <bigcalm> The roundabout is less surprising
[16:45] <christel> bigcalm enjoys a spot of swinging.
[16:45] <bigcalm> o.O
[16:45] <pinky-> yeah there's a lot of roundabout patents and I was looking for a better one for future ref
[16:46]  * bigcalm tickles christel
[16:47] <christel> MEEP
[16:47] <MartijnVdS> MEEP MEEP?
[16:48] <christel> WHY HELLO THAR van der S!
[16:48] <MartijnVdS> HI Dahlskjaer!
[16:49] <bigcalm> Hi MartijnVdS
[16:49] <christel> how art thou my fine dutchman? :)
[16:49] <bigcalm> Wah, almost 6pm again. That's not fair!
[16:50] <MartijnVdS> christel: hungry!
[16:50] <christel> aww
[16:53] <MartijnVdS> but food is in the oven, so only ~15 more minutes!
[16:54] <christel> nom! what are you having?
[16:55] <MartijnVdS> christel: I'll post a pic when it's done :)
[16:56] <christel> awesome! i love food porn :D
[16:56] <brobostigon> :)
[16:56] <pinky-> it's all been done before
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> whoa.. is it dec-21 yet?
[16:56] <MartijnVdS> http://ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2012-September/131741.html
[16:59] <bigcalm> MartijnVdS: what happens on 21st December?
[17:00] <pinky-> end of Mayan calander
[17:00] <pinky-> Maya/Mayan
[17:00] <bigcalm> Oh, that thing
[17:01] <pinky-> 10:30pm 21st Dec.
[17:01] <Darael> No, it isn't.  Not only does the Long Count not actually end for a few hundred years yet, there were references in their prophecies to dates beyond the end of the long count.
[17:04] <bigcalm> I think the end of the world will happen in 2038
[17:04] <Darael> bigcalm: I like to think we'll be using 64-bit time by then.
[17:04] <christel> bigcalm: too early! i'll still be alive and kicking
[17:05] <bigcalm> We'll be 59. Scary thought
[17:06] <pinky-> again?
[17:06] <pinky-> 59 again
[17:06] <bigcalm> No, it'll be the 1st time I will be 59
[17:07] <pinky-> I wish I was 21 again.. I'd do it all different
[17:07] <MartijnVdS> I'll be 57 when 32-bit time_t runs out
[17:07] <MartijnVdS> It's just like the Y2K problem: lots of moneys to be made :)
[17:07] <pinky-> I wonder if SuperEngineer can send me back?
[17:07] <Darael> bigcalm: I suppose one could argue that /a/ world will end.
[17:07] <MartijnVdS> Darael: "In a world.."
[17:08] <bigcalm> Hayley be home. Woop!
[17:08]  * bigcalm skips off to spend time with his lovely lady
[17:08] <Darael> MartijnVdS: Well, I was going for the similarity between end-of-an-era and end-of-the-world.  But yes.
[17:09] <christel> pinky-: i'm sure i'd do it all the same myself!
[17:10] <pinky-> christel, wouldn't you not try to do it all better?
[17:11] <christel> i think i'd try to learn how to need less sleep to fit in doing more stuff in the same amount of time perhaps
[17:13] <MartijnVdS> christel: one of those funky sleep cycles?
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> christel: 15 minutes every 2 hours or something
[17:14] <christel> ooh that'd work
[17:14] <christel> maybe
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> polyphasic sleep it's called
[17:14] <MartijnVdS> but apparently it's annoying that other people seem to never be awake
[17:15] <ali1234> when i wake up i'm grumpy for 4 hours
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> christel: or http://xkcd.com/320/
[17:15] <ali1234> so that would probably be a bad idea for me
[17:15] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: only 4 hours?! :P
[17:15] <ali1234> until lunch time basically
[17:15] <ali1234> the only way to avoid this is a full english
[17:17] <pinky-> well get one quick as there is going to be a bacon shortage soon
[17:19] <popey> you need http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ostrich-pillow/ostrich-pillow !
[17:19] <pinky-> lol I saw that last week on startup
[17:19] <pinky-> and thought "yes!"
[17:20] <MartijnVdS> christel: see G+ :)
[17:20]  * popey backed it :)
[17:21] <christel> ooh looks tasy
[17:21] <christel> tasty
[17:22] <MartijnVdS> it is :)
[17:43] <MartijnVdS> http://www.comediva.com/klingon-style
[17:46] <ali1234> that better not be what i think it is
[17:47] <pinky-> ostrich-pillow: Where have you been all my life? You are my new best friend!
[17:49]  * penguin42 has this odd vision of a monday morning meeting where everyone turns up with one
[18:03] <christel> haha
[18:21] <brobostigon> http://www.favientertainment.com/v/vspfiles/SmartStick_custom/index.html interesting idea.
[18:22] <ali1234> the price is right but as always i want to see a BSP at the very least before i'd buy it :)
[18:22] <mattt> evening all
[18:22] <mattt> thought i was going to fall asleep on the commute home
[18:22] <mattt> and since i drive, not a great thing
[18:22] <brobostigon> ali1234: bsp ?
[18:23] <ali1234> board support package
[18:23] <ali1234> basically a firmware development kit
[18:23] <brobostigon> ah.
[18:23] <brobostigon> ali1234: it is android 4.1, why not just get the most recent android sdk ?
[18:24] <ali1234> because AOSP doesn't include drivers
[18:24] <ali1234> except open source ones
[18:24] <ali1234> which probably isn't enough
[18:24] <brobostigon> ok, fair point.
[18:24] <ali1234> BSP is usually just a kernel and some binary modules
[18:24] <ali1234> it's what you need to port android, or something else, to a board
[18:25] <brobostigon> ah.
[18:26] <daftykins> interesting idea, you could almost see someone basing that on a raspberry pi and making some moneys
[18:26] <ali1234> that device (or a similar one by omeone else) has been in development as long as the pi
[18:27] <ali1234> the one that can do video over USB
[18:29] <daftykins> have you seen that the highest end Samsung TVs now have upgrade modules with new chips so you can boost their lifespan a bit?
[18:30] <pinky-> I thought this was very interesting http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/28/insert-coin-the-parallella-project/
[18:31] <pinky-> whoops just realised I had my page scrolled up and reading old text
[18:32] <TheHustle> hello
[19:17] <popey> evening all
[19:18] <brobostigon> evening popey
[19:20] <mattt> howzit popey
[19:45] <AlanBell> anyone know if you have to actually do anything to say you are an equal opportunities employer?
[19:47] <zleap> hgmm,  well on school forms in torbay they have equal opportunity monitoring forms
[19:48] <zleap> which I don't trust with a barge pole, if you don't know may age,  race,  sexual orientation you can't use that information against me
[19:49] <christel> http://www.growingbusiness.co.uk/be-an-equal-opportunities-employer.html
[19:54] <AlanBell> yeah, read that earlier, didn't quite answer the question, but I think you can just say you are one if you want to be one
[19:54] <AlanBell> not like investors in people where there is a specific assessment
[19:55] <zleap> not sure how some of this applies to schools
[19:55] <zleap> as in if you suffer abuse from the students, and the staff fail to deal with it effectivley  can people sue the school (or at least the headteacher) for damages
[19:55] <AlanBell> a lot of job adverts have "Foocorp is an equal opportunities employer" at the bottom of the page
[19:55] <AlanBell> I think it is almost entirely meaningless
[19:56] <zleap> it is
[19:56] <zleap> hence so few men work in schools
[19:56] <zleap> in fact one or two schools round here have hardly any men working in the school
[19:56] <popey> i dont think "hence" is the word you want there
[19:56] <zleap> ok
[19:57] <zleap> i still think they discriminate
[19:57] <popey> wat
[19:57] <AlanBell> yeah, slightly more complicated situation
[19:57] <AlanBell> no, don't think they do really
[19:57] <popey> the reason there is less male teachers is basically pay
[19:57] <AlanBell> it is really hard to fix any huge bias once you have a huge bias
[19:57] <popey> you're either underpaid or you're a manager
[19:58] <AlanBell> but that isn't my point at all
[19:58] <zleap> maybe
[19:58] <popey> usually teachers are not the breadwinner in the house
[19:58] <popey> *main
[19:58] <popey> anyway
[19:58] <AlanBell> just wanted to know if I can use those words without jumping through hoops
[19:58] <Daviey> I am not convinced it's simply that.  I don't think teaching tends to interest as many men.
[19:58]  * AlanBell isn't running a school fortunately
[19:59] <zleap> what about working in schools generally
[19:59] <popey> there's that as well
[19:59] <penguin42> AlanBell: Agreed; how many female computer programmers do you know as a % of those you know?
[19:59] <zleap> given the evidence that men can make a real difference ( esp to kids where there is no father at home)  you would think schools would want to employ men if they appy for jobs
[20:00] <AlanBell> penguin42: quite a high percentage personally :) but that isn't representative
[20:00] <popey> zleap, you're making out like they dont want to
[20:00] <zleap> there isn't a stigma attached to women working as programmers
[20:00] <AlanBell> orly
[20:00] <penguin42> AlanBell: Really? Unusual, I think it's probably well under 10% here
[20:02] <AlanBell> yeah, but like I say, the set of "people AlanBell knows who know about computers" is a bit distorted
[20:02] <AlanBell> anyhow, I think I can just say we are an equal opportunities employer
[20:02] <zleap> most of the people i know who I feel are in anyway compenant are either here or on user grouos
[20:03] <AlanBell> anyone called Alan is welcome to apply
[20:03] <popey> \o/
[20:03] <zleap> lol
[20:03] <zleap> in computers that is
[20:04] <zleap> the onky other alan i know is Alan donahue
[20:04]  * christel applies
[20:04] <christel> (what am i applying for?)
[20:06] <AlanBell> a name change to "Alan"
[20:06] <christel> aah!
[20:06] <christel> i dunno if alan would suit me
[20:06] <christel> what with being all short and stuff
[20:07] <christel> it strikes me as the sort of name a tall person would have
[20:07] <AlanBell> you are tall!
[20:07] <christel> short :(
[20:07] <christel> you only think i'm tall because i always bring Daviey
[20:07] <christel> err Dave2(
[20:07] <christel> which i do to appear taller
[20:07]  * christel nods
[20:08] <zleap> Daviey, long time no chat
[20:08] <Daviey> zleap: hey o/
[20:09] <zleap> and hi tombrough
[20:10] <Daviey> AlanBell: Hey.. Regarding the banner and tablecloth.. You asked me to take it to the office ages ago!
[20:10] <Daviey> (so i did)
[20:10] <Daviey> and you didn't collect it
[20:10] <AlanBell> awesome \o/
[20:11]  * AlanBell will collect it soon
[20:11] <Daviey> Cezz has it ready.. popey might be able to bring it to you faster, maybe?
[20:11] <Daviey> :)
[20:11] <AlanBell> no tearing hurry, and I want someone to invite me to the new office anyhow
[20:12] <Daviey> AlanBell: there was an open invite last night...
[20:12] <popey> you not been in?
[20:12] <AlanBell> nope
[20:13] <Daviey> AlanBell: why'da not come last night?
[20:13] <mattt> Daviey: did you give a talk at the first openstack meetup?
[20:13] <Daviey> mattt: i did
[20:13] <AlanBell> don't use openstack
[20:13] <mattt> AlanBell: why4?
[20:13] <Daviey> haters gotta hate.
[20:14] <mattt> Daviey: there last night?
[20:14] <Daviey> mattt: yes
[20:14] <mattt> Daviey: was good, think having everything in the 1 room is better tho
[20:14] <AlanBell> we have 4 servers running KVM with a bunch of VMs on each
[20:14] <Daviey> mattt: Entirely agree.. some feedback suggested it, so w gave it a try
[20:15] <AlanBell> don't really know what openstack would give us, apart from requiring 5 machines
[20:15] <mattt> AlanBell: an API, for starters?  :)
[20:15] <Daviey> AlanBell: This time next year, your requirements will be 10000's of physical machines
[20:15] <AlanBell> for what?
[20:15] <Daviey> AlanBell: think growth!
[20:15] <mattt> yeah, you can't world dominate if you have to manually spin up instances :P
[20:16] <AlanBell> really, creating a VM on KVM and installing Ubuntu on it doesn't take long
[20:17] <mattt> not the point
[20:17] <AlanBell> it is maybe 10 minutes out of a 2 week project
[20:18] <mattt> AlanBell: but yeah, if you're not thinking of growing much, then considering openstack may be overkill
[20:18] <AlanBell> we are thinking of growing, sure
[20:18] <AlanBell> but we are a services business, not a hosting business
[20:18] <AlanBell> we provide hosting for our consultancy clients
[20:18] <mattt> why not do what heroku etc. do?
[20:19] <mattt> and just use rackspace/ec2 etc.
[20:19] <AlanBell> we could do, but that is a massively expensive way of getting stuff that is always on
[20:20] <mattt> think you said you use hetzner?
[20:20] <mattt> they are very cheap
[20:20] <AlanBell> EC2 makes sense if you are bursting and your baseload number of machines is quite a lots less than your peak load
[20:21] <AlanBell> yeah, they are cheap, and fast and high bandwidth and we rent the hardware so they maintain that
[20:21] <mattt> yeah, i have a small machine with them, it's been rock solid
[20:21] <penguin42> AlanBell: Have you tried doing things like livemigrating between them when you need to service one?
[20:21] <mattt> live migrate?  :)
[20:22] <AlanBell> did try that once, didn't work
[20:22] <AlanBell> you need everything on the same subnet and addresses assigned by dhcp for that to work really
[20:23] <penguin42> AlanBell: Yeh, I think things like openstack and the like are the type of setups that are supposed to be able to manage stuff like that
[20:23] <penguin42> mattt: Move a running vm between hosts without down time
[20:23] <AlanBell> yeah, which would mean we have to have all our boxes on the same subnet to run openstack across them
[20:24] <mattt> i know xenserver has some feature to live migrate w/out shared storage
[20:24] <mattt> not fully sure how it works tho
[20:24] <penguin42> AlanBell: I've not tried it, but I think what people do is tend to have a separate subnet/vlan for managementy stuff
[20:24] <mattt> yeah
[20:24] <penguin42> mattt: Yeh it does, it copies blocks over as it goes
[20:24] <AlanBell> so does KVM, it does work, but makes assumptions about networking
[20:25] <mattt> do you get a private IP on hetzner?
[20:25] <mattt> i don't recall my box having one
[20:25] <AlanBell> no, public IPs
[20:25] <mattt> could you use some sort of dummy internal network?
[20:25] <mattt> (openvpn or whatever)
[20:25] <AlanBell> and we get additional blocks of 8 or 16 assigned to the host, and use bridged networking to pass those into the guests
[20:27] <AlanBell> http://wiki.hetzner.de/index.php/KVM/en
[20:27] <Daviey> kvm can do shared or non-shared storage migration
[20:27] <AlanBell> it is a bit hairy but it works
[20:27] <Daviey> (openstack supports both models)
[20:27] <mattt> btw, i created #openstack-uk earlier today
[20:27] <mattt> if any of you lot want to lurk
[20:28] <AlanBell> the other thing is I have no idea how we would go from our current setup to openstack
[20:28] <AlanBell> don't really want to buy 5 new servers and migrate stuff across to it and get rid of the other ones
[20:28] <mattt> AlanBell: not entirely sure either
[20:28] <mattt> it'd be possible
[20:29] <mattt> with some hacking
[20:29] <AlanBell> last time I looked at the openstack architecture it needed a minimum of 6 hosts to get off the ground with just one of them hosting machines
[20:29] <AlanBell> I *think* they have sanitised that a bit now
[20:29] <penguin42> AlanBell: Shove the other 5 in a Vm :-)
[20:29] <mattt> penguin42: that will work fine
[20:30] <mattt> will be running a lot of stuff tho :P
[20:30] <penguin42> (nested kvm is quite fun incidentally - just pretty much works on Ubuntu)
[20:30] <czajkowski> evening
[20:30] <AlanBell> yeah, I should probably look at the documentation again, it failed the laugh test last time I read it though
[20:31] <mattt> penguin42: yeah, i've not really played w/ openstack on my own in a while ... going to set it up on some public cloud servers using qemu or lxc
[20:31] <mattt> czajkowski: hello
[20:31] <AlanBell> http://docs.openstack.org/trunk/openstack-compute/install/apt/content/compute-system-requirements.html#d6e209 ok, so just one wasted 12GB ram computer
[20:32] <mattt> that's recommended
[20:32] <penguin42> proxmox is the otherone I've heard people like
[20:32] <mattt> you can probably bung it into a 1 GB instance :P
[20:33] <mattt> AlanBell: let me get this dummy install going on as minimal a setup as possible
[20:33] <penguin42> yeh that's unfortunate not to say whether it needs a 12GB RAM machine for 5 hosts or 50
[20:33] <mattt> AlanBell: i'll be happy to give you a login to test once it's done
[20:33] <AlanBell> cool, thanks mattt
[20:33] <mattt> np
[20:34] <mattt> i've got keystone and glance up and running, need to finish off the nova component
[20:34] <AlanBell> I am OK with one wasted computer, that is back to Eucalyptus requirements
[20:34] <AlanBell> which put me off at the time when we wanted one host
[20:35] <Daviey> Openstack can work from one machine.
[20:35] <mattt> Daviey: i'd say like 2 GB should be able to run everything right?
[20:35] <mattt> i mean, you're not going to be competing with amazon
[20:35] <Daviey> Infact, i regularly deploy all of openstack, within an openstack cloud, for development
[20:35] <mattt> but it should work
[20:35] <AlanBell> Daviey: OK, that is really interesting
[20:36] <Daviey> (Since Precise, nested kvm has made it more interesting)
[20:36] <zleap> Daviey, are you free to attnend any lug meets ?
[20:36] <Daviey> zleap: I don't live in Devon anymore :(
[20:37] <Daviey> nested kvm, is kvm within kvm.
[20:37] <penguin42> Daviey: Just one turtle higher in the stack
[20:38] <Daviey> O_o
[20:38] <mattt> tools to import existing VMs into nova would be nice
[20:38] <mattt> do they exist?
[20:39] <zleap> Daviey, ok
[20:39] <Daviey> mattt: that could be done.. but i'd hope that most workloads could be easily migrated.
[20:40] <jpds> Daviey: I think penguin42 means that you need to go deeper.
[20:41] <Daviey> oh
[20:42] <jpds> mattt: re: 2GB> Depends on what kind of images you want to run.
[20:42] <mattt> jpds: i'm talking 2 GB dedicated to an instance running nova-compute, sched, network, etc.
[20:42] <penguin42> jpds: There's likely to be a real computer at the bottom of the stack somehwere
[20:42] <mattt> 2 GB is going to be tight w/ mysql and rabbitmq, but it'd work
[20:45] <Daviey> It will run just fine!  Just don't expact more than a handful of instances
[20:45] <jpds> mattt: I meant images == instances.
[20:45] <jpds> mattt: If you want to run Ubuntu, good luck with more than a few on 2GB.
[20:46] <jpds> mattt: On the other hand, a handful of https://launchpad.net/cirros images would work fine.
[20:47] <mattt> jpds: nice, not heard of cirros
[20:47] <mattt> what's under the hood?
[20:47] <Daviey> err, cirros only exists as a minimal development image.. Not for production usage
[20:48] <Daviey> heck, it has root with a public known password.
[20:48] <Daviey> (It is made by someone on my team)
[20:48] <jpds> Daviey: For testing, it's good.
[20:48] <mattt> but what's it based on?
[20:48] <jpds> mattt: Ubuntu.
[20:48] <mattt> ah
[20:49] <mattt> still handy
[21:02] <AlanBell> what is the openstack host upgrade story?
[21:02] <AlanBell> is that scary?
[21:04] <mattt> AlanBell: not sure myself
[21:05] <mattt> AlanBell: i think it may have been a bit rough at first
[21:05] <mattt> but i'm sure things have stabilized a lot
[21:06] <AlanBell> non-scary upgrades is *very* important feature
[21:06] <AlanBell> live migration might help with that
[21:06] <mattt> oh
[21:06] <mattt> sorry
[21:06] <AlanBell> if you can shuffle all the machines off a host, upgrade it, shuffle them back that would be cool
[21:06] <mattt> you're talking about your host machines?
[21:07] <mattt> or upgrading your nova-* services (and underlying tables etc.)
[21:07] <AlanBell> or do you need to run all the hosts at the same level?
[21:07] <mattt> well, i'd run as little on my host machines as possible
[21:07] <mattt> and only reboot for critical security issues
[21:07] <mattt> even then, you can save instances to disk, reboot, start them back up again
[21:08] <mattt> and disruption to clients should be relatively minimal
[21:08] <mattt> heh, reminds me of my hetzner box
[21:08] <AlanBell> yeah, we are running 10.04 on most of our hosts, and nothing runs on the host. I need to do a 12.04 upgrade but that is a bit scary
[21:09] <mattt> they emailed to say they had to move my server to another datacentre
[21:09] <mattt> a few weeks go by, and i remember my box should have been moved
[21:09] <mattt> i check my instance which i irc from etc ... uptime > 300 days
[21:09] <mattt> so figured they cancelled the maintenance
[21:09] <mattt> hopped onto my dom0 a few days later, realized it HAD been shut down
[21:10] <mattt> but my instances were saved when they powered down the host and restored when it booted back up, so it looked like my instances never went down :)
[21:10] <AlanBell> cool
[21:10] <AlanBell> not sure I would just suspend the VMs and do a 12.04 upgrade
[21:10] <AlanBell> though maybe I could
[21:10] <AlanBell> leave them running, do the upgrade, suspend, reboot, turn on again?
[21:11] <mattt> yeah, that is kinda scary :)
[21:11] <AlanBell> maybe I will try that on my laptop or something
[21:11] <mattt> yeah
[21:11] <mattt> was just about to say that
[21:11] <mattt> i'd test it first
[21:12] <mattt> before you corrupt instances or something
[21:12] <mattt> but
[21:12] <mattt> i guess the worst thing that'd happen is you can't resume from the memory dump?
[21:12] <mattt> at which point, you just boot them up normally
[21:12] <AlanBell> yeah, so they all take a hard shutdown (no big deal)
[21:13] <mattt> let me know how it goes :)
[21:13] <AlanBell> the worst that could happen is that something in the upgrade messes up the networking configuration and I have to spend some time putting it back together
[21:14] <AlanBell> or really bad would be the host gets stuck at a grub prompt somehow :)
[21:14] <mattt> yeah, if you test it on a dummy box at home hopefully you can catch the glaring issues that will result from the upgrade
[21:16] <AlanBell> if openstack made stuff like that entirely routine that would be good
[21:17] <mattt> AlanBell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuServer#From_10.04_to_12.04
[21:18] <mattt> actually, skip down to 'Known Issues'
[21:18] <AlanBell> yeah, read that and it works in general
[21:18] <mattt> AlanBell: as far as i understand it, openstack doesn't address any of these issues
[21:18] <AlanBell> 10.04 to 12.04 works fine and I have upgraded a number of the guests that way
[21:19] <AlanBell> it is just a little more tense to do it to the host
[21:19] <mattt> nah, it talks about kvm configurations not working after the upgrade
[21:19] <mattt> "If you are running a KVM host with libvirt and are upgrading from Ubuntu 10.04 LTS to 12.04 LTS you may find that some existing virtual machines are no longer recognized (virsh list --all). A change to each guest's XML file may be needed, related to how console and serial devices are now configured. (931350)"
[21:20] <AlanBell> ooh, yeah, that would be a bit of a worry!
[21:20] <mattt> the way you handle host upgrades will differ depending on what OS you run, whether you're using xen/kvm, etc.
[21:20] <mattt> so i'm not sure openstack will solve these problems, but hopefully some best practices will emerge
[21:21] <AlanBell> thanks for pointing that one out, simple fix but that would be a real worry to see!
[21:23] <mattt> hahahahaha
[21:23] <mattt> yeah, that would give you a fright :)
[21:43] <popey> !ping
[22:00] <bigcalm> !pong
[22:13] <MarbleMad_> MarbleMad
[22:50] <tombrough> ?
[22:50] <tombrough> ?
[22:54] <dogmatic69> google has far to much money and/or spare time
[22:59] <sql-engine> hello
[23:04] <pinky-> ostrich-pillow: I will love you longtime!
[23:05] <pinky-> good night all
[23:12] <brobostigon> nos da everyone, sleep well.
[23:15] <sql-engine> hello from sql-engine I am a bot
[23:16] <sql-engine> hello from sql-engine I am a bot
[23:17] <sql-engine> hello from sql-engine I am a bot
[23:17] <penguin42> AlanBell: Do you know anything about driving the accessibility interfaces on KDE apps? I've just found Konsole has an interface for adding a selection via it and wonderd what can drive it
[23:18] <sql-engine> hello from sql-engine I am a bot
[23:18] <sql-engine> goodbye from sql-engine bot
[23:18] <penguin42> whoever runs that bot, can you please try it in a private channel
[23:26] <mattt> heh
[23:26] <mattt> jeez