[05:25] <AlanBell> morning all
[07:27] <diplo> Morning all
[07:45]  * AlanBell wonders who to poke to get the patch to fix bug 1016969 in to Quantal
[07:45] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 1016969 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "daily live cd boots silent in virtualbox" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016969
[07:53] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:00] <bigcalm> Morning peeps
[08:21] <AlanBell> anyone know an easy way to get chromium to use the firefox user agent string?
[08:22] <SuperMatt> not a clue, Alan
[08:23] <popey> an extension?
[08:23] <SuperMatt> I never do those sorts of thing
[08:23] <AlanBell> popey: ok, found one. Thought it might be built in and I was missing it
[08:24] <AlanBell> yay, that was easy
[08:24] <AlanBell> boo to sites that still do browser detection in 2012
[08:31] <SuperMatt> so, this release party in two weeks
[08:32] <SuperMatt> what normally happens?
[08:32] <AlanBell> intoxicating fluids are imbibed
[08:32] <SuperMatt> yes, I see. Go on.
[08:32] <AlanBell> on??
[08:32] <SuperMatt> oh
[08:33] <SuperMatt> HUZZAH
[08:33] <AlanBell> Canonical sometimes buys nibbles
[08:34] <AlanBell> it really isn't much more complicated than that
[08:34] <JamesTai1> Good morning all! :)
[08:41] <bigcalm> Anybody here able to help me understand IPSec configuration? :)
[08:43] <bigcalm> Good morning JamesTai1. You appear to be missing some t this morning
[08:43]  * bigcalm goes to make a cuppa
[08:49] <SuperMatt> hurm, my firefox keeps crashing this morning
[08:49]  * SuperMatt blames the fact he's running the beta and thinks nothing of it
[08:51] <hoover> good morning
[08:51] <SuperMatt> good morning
[08:53] <bigcalm> to you
[09:08] <Laney> haha
[09:08] <Laney> there's a wireless network in range of me called "Wi believe I can Fi"
[09:08] <SuperMatt> that's pretty cool
[09:27] <knightwise> lol
[09:28] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:28] <SuperMatt> good morning
[09:28] <SuperMatt> I'm dead excited about going to a release party
[09:32] <mungojerry> what happens? people drink beer?
[09:33] <SuperMatt> seems so
[09:33] <SuperMatt> I've been meaning to go to a release party for ages, but I just never had the chance
[09:34] <SuperMatt> and now my girlfeind works lates, I have an excuse to be out late too
[09:34] <mattt> SuperMatt: dew eet
[09:34] <SuperMatt> gunna!
[09:34] <MooDoo> someone say beer
[09:34] <SuperMatt> I think the unity quicklists are gonna need a few more features
[09:35] <SuperMatt> I've created my own launcher with a lot of shortcuts to things that I do regularly, but now it's getting quite full
[09:35] <brobostigon> MooDoo: yes :)
[09:35] <mungojerry> ginger beer
[09:36] <MooDoo> fair enough then, I could do with a pint or 3
[09:41] <AlanBell> can you come to the party MooDoo?
[09:42] <MooDoo> AlanBell: what party is this Alan?  I've come in halfway through the conversation again.
[09:42] <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/2006/detail/
[09:43] <mungojerry> wow, getting gnome shell to work is one hack after another :(
[09:43] <MooDoo> AlanBell: alas no, i'm on lates that week, 3:30 - midnight, but i'll be on IRC and there is spirit
[09:45] <AlanBell> might try a G+ hangout from the pub
[09:45] <SuperMatt> hah
[09:45] <SuperMatt> awesome idea
[09:46] <AlanBell> I have all the kit for doing that, should have 3G reception in that part of town
[09:46] <MooDoo> now that would be fun :)
[09:46] <AlanBell> I will bring my good camera and polycom communicator and possibly some powered speakers
[09:47] <SuperMatt> pfft
[09:47] <SuperMatt> windows 7 install restart count: 2
[09:47] <SuperMatt> Ubuntu: 1
[09:48] <SuperMatt> microsoft really have a lot of catching up to do
[09:48]  * SuperMatt wonders if it would be possible for ubuntu to start without rebooting the PC
[10:24] <mungojerry> hmm, get massive lock ups and stutter when installing a deb file in gnome shell too
[10:25] <mungojerry> weird, also in normal operation, dragging windows on screen 1 is laggy and juddery, screen2 is smooth
[10:25] <mungojerry> core i5 and nvidia gfx
[10:26] <mungojerry> anyone experienced a problem like that?
[10:41] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:44] <SuperMatt> davmor2: /j #ubuntu-on-air
[10:49] <gord> mungojerry, different refresh rates i assume on the monitors?
[10:49] <mungojerry> gord, it was incredibly stuttery, but now is OK, probably a hangover from the i/o caused by installing the deb file :S
[10:49] <mungojerry> the problem is not limited to my pc
[10:50] <gord> yeah it'll be the installing a deb that causes it, but i'm just talking about the difference between one screen and another
[10:51] <mungojerry> identical monitors :S
[10:51] <mungojerry> the judder and lag was massive
[10:51] <mungojerry> 1 fps
[11:14] <NET||abuse> popey: howdy dude, I was looking at hte config for the microserver last night, finally got sata cable to connect to the second sata port on the mobo.
[11:15] <popey> yay
[11:15] <NET||abuse> popey: but i didn't see any options to activate the drive in the optical bay in the bios?
[11:15] <NET||abuse> was wondering if you had a pointer on that?
[11:15] <popey> i didnt do anything to activate it
[11:15] <NET||abuse> so i was searching for additional options for a second sata interface
[11:15] <popey> second?
[11:16] <NET||abuse> i got the ubuntu alt cd 12.04.1 on usb stick and booted it.
[11:16] <NET||abuse> but the partitioner couldn't see any drives except the usb stick
[11:16] <popey> odd
[11:16] <NET||abuse> yeh, a little frustrating.
[11:17] <NET||abuse> i realised too late last night that the main sata controller needs to be flopped from ata mode to raid0/1
[11:17] <NET||abuse> so i can try that next chance i get to fiddle with it, maybe tonight
[11:17] <NET||abuse> but otherwise, still got no sign of hte first drive at all
[11:17] <NET||abuse> even the included 250GB drive that was in the first caddy
[11:18] <NET||abuse> hmm, maybe i need to boot to a live usb and do some lspci and other listings
[11:20] <NET||abuse> otherwise thogh, i grabbed a sweet sata bay that fits int he optical drive, http://www.maplin.co.uk/sata-easy-swap-hdd-mobile-rack-218031
[11:21] <NET||abuse> sits in the chassis nicely
[11:21] <NET||abuse> just had to add a screw with teh right head shape to grab the optical slot rails and latch
[11:22] <NET||abuse> i think i'm a little too excited about building this server, it's been 3 years since i had a real home setup
[11:32] <popey> https://www.facebook.com/zuck/posts/10100518568346671 scary that there's a billion people on facebook
[11:35] <popey> http://popey.com/house/ idling lower today \o/
[11:38] <Daviey> popey: can we have nagios alerts if you have a power spike?
[11:38] <popey> :D
[11:39] <popey> maybe I should have a twitter account for my house like @andysc does :D
[11:39] <Daviey> popey: it's essential, but i need sms alerts.
[12:53] <AlanBell> aquarius: how is your rendered dice throwing these days?
[12:54] <aquarius> AlanBell, project on hold; doing it with animated gifs won't work because of transparency :(
[12:54] <aquarius> so I need to make it render with css3 3d transitions
[12:54] <aquarius> which I have halfway managed
[12:54] <aquarius> and then got distracted
[12:54] <AlanBell> gosh, OK
[12:55] <AlanBell> so the browser will do the 3d
[12:58] <bigcalm> I guess APNG was a no-go
[12:59]  * gord designs websites using entirely apng and jpeg2000 images
[13:00] <bigcalm> ¬.¬
[13:05] <brobostigon> !info gnome-shell
[13:06] <lubotu3`> gnome-shell (source: gnome-shell): graphical shell for the GNOME desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 3.4.1-0ubuntu2 (precise), package size 329 kB, installed size 901 kB
[13:15] <jacobw> *sigh* unity is crashing again :(
[13:15] <jacobw> kwin ftw
[13:16] <popey> jacobw, what release?
[13:20] <aquarius> bigcalm, no-one supports apng, do they?
[13:21] <bigcalm> aquarius: natively, FF and other gecko browsers do. There are plug-ins for other browsers and various image processing packages. But without native support, I don't think it's worth the effort
[13:21] <aquarius> *nod*
[13:21] <aquarius> I didn't even know that ff did :)
[13:21] <bigcalm> aquarius: my source of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APNG
[13:22] <bigcalm> Wow, Opera Mobile has native support!
[13:23] <gord> well thats five extra users right there
[13:23] <bigcalm> Haha
[13:23] <bigcalm> gord: I think aquarius is their main user ;)
[13:24] <jacobw> popey: granted, this particular crash is on quantal
[13:24] <aquarius> having used it for one evening, yesterday, I think I probably agree :)
[13:24] <Azelphur> Anyone know where I get replacement ones of these? https://www.dropbox.com/s/8muz28gnteqjl9n/2012-10-04%2014.01.21.jpg?m
[13:24] <popey> jacobw, new unity later today
[13:25] <jacobw> popey: ok
[13:26] <bigcalm> aquarius: what's your target?
[13:26] <bigcalm> +platform
[13:26] <jacobw> popey: the complain i most often hear about unity is that the window switching model is time consuming
[13:27] <aquarius> bigcalm, for the dice thing? desktop and mobile
[13:27] <bigcalm> aquarius: have banners saying "best viewed in Firefox" ;)
[13:27] <jacobw> popey: i totally agree, will it ever be possible to switch between calc windows with a quicklist or similar rather than the expose method?
[13:28] <popey> alt-` ?
[13:29] <jacobw> can i change that binding? it's not inputable on my keyboard layout
[13:30] <aquarius> bigcalm, heh. no. :)
[13:30] <popey> its the key above tab
[13:30] <popey> its not defined as "alt+`" it's alt+key_above_tab
[13:31] <AlanBell> window switching is getting better in unity, it still isn't good for people who are used to tracking the zindex of all their windows
[13:32] <jacobw> it's more a problem of quickly switching to a window with a particular title
[13:32] <AlanBell> alt+` is kind of OK, it becomes more understandable when you understand  bug 1061229
[13:32] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 1061229 in unity (Ubuntu) "alt backtick backtick takes you back to where you started" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1061229
[13:33] <jacobw> for example if you have 4 letters open in writer with identical letterheads but different filenames/titles and thus window titles then it's difficult to switch easily with a expose like function
[13:40] <AlanBell> jacobw: https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/unity-window-quicklists/trunk
[13:40] <AlanBell> grab that, it will do what you want with the quicklists
[13:41] <AlanBell> I have been trying to live with the standard behavior
[13:43] <AlanBell> I have written a couple of things to make unity much more usable, that quicklists thing and I rewrote the applications lens to make it possible to find applications without typing
[13:43] <AlanBell> grouping them by category rather than using the categories as filters
[13:44] <AlanBell> and ripping out the software centre nonsense in the applications lens, that should be a separate lens altogether
[13:45] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/appmenulens.png like that
[13:48] <AlanBell> with a new thing for controlling lenses and what lenses can report results to the home lens it might make sense to revisit that, having multiple apps lenses makes little sense when they all work at the same time
[14:11] <jacobw> AlanBell: cool
[14:12] <jacobw> AlanBell: it feels like we're reinventing the traditional desktop with shiny labels :p
[14:12] <popey> where "traditional desktop" is what? CDE? OS/2? GEM? :)
[14:13] <popey> http://www.deltasoft.com/graphics/screenshots/gem3desk.gif
[14:13] <popey> thats all you need
[14:13] <davmor2> popey: workbench for amiga surely :D
[14:16] <jacobw> where traditional desktop is based around text labelled window management functions, like a taskbar and a pointer navigatable menu
[14:17] <jacobw> why have window titles if you don't use them for window management?
[14:18] <AlanBell> well yes it is reinventing the desktop
[14:19] <jacobw> for what purpose?
[14:19] <AlanBell> Xerox Alto
[14:20] <AlanBell> these things need constant reinvention
[14:21] <davmor2> AlanBell: why not just use the filters?
[14:21] <AlanBell> davmor2: because too many clicks
[14:21] <AlanBell> and unintuitive and out of the way
[14:22] <davmor2> AlanBell: you click it once to show the filters then you click on department
[14:22] <davmor2> although I agree it's not completely obvious
[14:23] <AlanBell> click BFB, click apps lens click to show filters click filter you want, click see more results, click hide filter thing because there is no room to show any results, click thing you want to start
[14:23] <popey> yeah, i just tested that to find all games on my system, way too many clicks
[14:25] <davmor2> popey: fix the video lens crashing everytime I open the dash please
[14:26] <AlanBell> oh yeah, video lens daemon at 100%cpu :( possibly because I am behind a proxy
[14:27]  * AlanBell wonders how much of the lens stuff works behind a proxy
[14:28] <jacobw> i don't buy the necessity of reinvention argument
[14:29] <jacobw> incremental improvement through the gnome2 cycle worked very well
[14:29] <jacobw> it's also worked very well through the kde4 cycle and is working well in the mozilla rapid release schedule
[14:32] <popey> jacobw, no, incremental improvement in gnome2 did not work at all
[14:32] <mgdm> AlanBell: I would hope it all would
[14:33] <popey> if it did, go and find me a mainstream pc vendor selling computers running GNOME 2
[14:33] <jacobw> popey: how so?
[14:33] <popey> if it was a success, OEMs would have embraced it, customers would have bought it, but it wasn't, so they didn't.
[14:34] <popey> its fine for nerds like us, but not for the 99% of people who are the target market for Ubuntu
[14:36] <jacobw> have OEMs embraced unity? was the dell ubuntu project a failure? that based on gnome2.
[14:37] <popey> yes, dell have hundreds of stores all over china and india branded ubuntu
[14:37] <jacobw> i think the inverse of the 'nerds like gnome2' point is true, i think nerds prefer unity as a shiny thing and people who don't care for novel window management prefer gnome2/kde/windows
[14:38] <popey> and it's not just dell
[14:39] <jacobw> perhaps differention is the factor in the purchasing decision
[14:41] <popey> there are many factors :)
[14:45]  * AlanBell wonders if Dell will release Sputnik at any point
[14:46] <AlanBell> seems absolutely crazy to announce a high end developer ultrabook, then let the hardware age 6 months before anyone can get it
[14:48] <davmor2> jacobw: people just don't like change,  When kde went from kde3 to kde4 all the kde people were fuming and that was going from something that changed from a bar at the bottom to a bar at the bottom.  People get comfortable with the way something works and then hate anything that is a change
[14:49] <jacobw> i'm not really interested in the purchasing decision, i already have a computer, all i need is a window manager for my OS
[14:50] <jacobw> davmor2: i get that, but it's similar to 'if some climate change is not caused by man, then all climate change is inevitable' argument
[14:51] <jacobw> davmor2: the resistance to change isn't the significient factor IMO, the resistance to kde4 wasn't widespread, trinity was never the sensible option
[14:53] <davmor2> jacobw: You know there were flame wars worse than when ubuntu moved the button right
[14:53] <popey> but the people you're all talking about are geeks.
[14:53] <popey> these are not normal people
[14:54] <AlanBell> this is true, however a pretty common theme is geeks saying on mailing lists that they wouldn't install unity for parents and family because it is too hard
[14:54] <jacobw> "you're wrong because you're not not normal" is not an argument
[14:55] <AlanBell> however unity does apparently test well with normal people (or what passes for normal in London)
[14:55] <AlanBell> and my parents and children use it without complaint
[14:56] <AlanBell> I would suggest to anyone not using unity yet that you should jump straight to Qantal and miss out Precise
[14:56] <davmor2> AlanBell: but is that the geeks finding it too hard and saying to themselves that it would be too hard for their parents
[14:56] <AlanBell> davmor2: it is indeed
[14:56] <AlanBell> odd though isn't it
[14:57] <davmor2> AlanBell: My mom is a complete novice and uses Ubuntu with unity with no issues
[14:59] <jacobw> if you browse the web only then most computers are usable without issue
[15:01] <jacobw> i don't 'hard' is the issue, it's that the design makes window management difficult and flat out rejects all known methods of efficent window management
[15:02] <AlanBell> yes, it isn't a great window manager
[15:03] <AlanBell> the reaction I got when I wrote the quicklists thing to manage lots of windows was that I should be using tmux and screen so I don't have so many windows
[15:03] <AlanBell> the solution to the window manager not being good with lots of windows isn't really to use fewer windows imo
[15:07] <jacobw> using less windows isn't really use case for tmux or screen
[15:09] <popey> s/less/fewer/
[15:10] <jacobw> i guess my problem is that the capabilities of unity are not superset of it's predecessor which to me is a regression
[15:34] <jacobw> anyone know how to set permissions recursively in cyrus2.2?
[15:40] <mungojerry>    17.732016] NVRM: Your system is not currently configured to drive a VGA console on the primary VGA device. The NVIDIA Linux graphics driver requires the use of a text-mode VGA console. Use of other console
[15:40] <mungojerry> [   17.732020] NVRM: drivers including, but not limited to, vesafb, may result in corruption and stability problems, and is not supported.
[15:40] <mungojerry> ins this normal?
[16:43] <czajkowski> aquarius: was over the heart failure you gave me last night by sayin you werent over *this* weekend
[17:43] <czajkowski> best idea ever http://twitter.com/czajkowski/status/253912768971939840
[18:00] <DJones> Already at £1000
[18:01] <DJones> http://www.justgiving.com/jonobaconmarathon
[18:34] <ging> 7
[18:34] <ging> oops
[18:35] <AlanBell> popey are you in the office tomorrow?
[18:35] <popey> no
[19:36] <AlanBell> you may drink your tomato juice with worcester now
[19:37] <popey> i may?
[19:37] <popey> unfortunately it's not arrived
[19:37] <AlanBell> yes :)
[19:37] <AlanBell> oh noes!
[19:37]  * popey checks amazon
[19:37] <AlanBell> you will have to stick to weak lemon drink thne
[19:38]  * czajkowski hugs her new purple harddrive! :D
[19:38] <RaycisCharles> czajkowski: you sound Polish.
[19:39] <popey> Reading Depot
[19:39] <popey> Undeliverable - 2 October 2012 7:28:00
[19:39] <popey> what!?
[19:39] <popey> HDNL
[19:39] <popey> damnit
[19:39] <czajkowski> RaycisCharles: you've heard me speak ?
[19:39] <RaycisCharles> NYET
[20:14] <locodir-user> hi guys
[20:14] <Darael> Good morning.
[20:14] <locodir-user> I am looking for an advice. I cannot open java chat pages.
[20:15] <locodir-user> any advice please
[20:15] <Darael> !java
[20:15] <lubotu3`> To just use java you need a "Java Runtime Environment" (JRE) and/or a browser plugin. If that is not sufficient you will need a "Java Development Kit" (JDK) aka "Software  Development Kit" (SDK).  Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Java about how to install one of three current implementations.
[20:15] <Darael> Unless thou meanest JavaScript, which is in fact something completely different that shouldn't be giving trouble at all...
[20:31] <locodir-user> sorry
[20:31] <locodir-user> on google crhome i can open
[20:31] <locodir-user> but not in mozila
[20:39] <Oli> popey: Where is your temperature monitor?
[20:39] <popey> popey.com/house
[20:39] <Oli> No, I mean where in the house
[20:41] <Oli> Because it's very warm there
[20:45] <popey> Oli, oh, in the centre of the house next to the server, on top of the freezer :D
[20:45] <popey> so yes, warm
[20:45] <popey> utility room
[20:55] <bigcalm> Good evening peeps :)
[20:56] <Darael> Good morning bigcalm.
[20:56] <bigcalm> Eager :)
[20:58] <Darael> Nah.  It's always morning somewhere.  I tend to default to morning so as not to bother thinking about what time it is.
[21:11] <AlanBell> !ugt
[21:12] <AlanBell> http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
[21:12] <AlanBell> so you are entirely correct that it is morning when you enter the channel
[21:13] <AlanBell> lubotu3`: nick lubotu3
[22:15] <bigcalm> I'm terrible with network address stuff. With /8 /24 etc, can you have /0 for a single address?
[22:17] <Darael> bigcalm: /0 would be no prefix, meaning the entire address space!
[22:18] <Darael> bigcalm: For v4, the just-one-address prefix length would be /32.  For v6, it's /128.
[22:18] <bigcalm> Thank you
[22:19] <Darael> One way to think of it is that the number after the / is the number of bits "locked" that way.
[22:19] <bigcalm> I have a terrible time understanding it :(
[22:20] <bigcalm> Always have. It's been 15 years since I started
[22:20] <Darael> Well, in v4 it's mostly easy because people don't often use anything other than /8, /16, /24, and /32.  Which correspond to fixing one, two, three, and all four of the numbers in the usual dotted-decimal representation respectively.
[22:21] <Darael> So when we talk about 192.168.0.0/16 as a set of addresses we mean all the addresses from 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.255.255.  Usually we're talking about things being in that block.
[22:22] <Darael> Whereas 192.168.0.0/24 is only 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.0.255.
[22:22] <Darael> (Trying to choose reasonably familiar examples.  Obviously we could choose others.)
[22:24] <Darael> ...I'll shut up now.
[22:27] <daftykins> Red Dwarf wasn't too bad at all
[22:27] <daftykins> anyone catch it?
[22:32] <bigcalm> Darael: I see, that was helpful. Thank you
[22:33] <bigcalm> Talking of 196.168.0.0 as a /16 makes sense to me
[22:36] <Darael> Well, like I say, it could also mean a prefix anywhere in the range /17 to /32.  Depends how big the net in question is.
[22:40] <daftykins> i did lab sessions at Uni with a /29, that was nuts. like 4 or 5 usable IPs on one of those
[22:43] <Darael> Eight IPs total, one of which is reserved for the broadcast address IIRC, and... there are other reasons for them to be unusable but I forget what.