| rick_h_ | morning | 11:43 |
|---|---|---|
| brousch | I guess I haven't updated in a while. 750MB of updates waiting | 11:53 |
| rick_h_ | nice | 11:53 |
| brousch | I may get to report a real Python bug | 11:56 |
| brousch | subprocess.Popen assumes that you have /bin/sh, but on Android it's at /system/bin/sh | 11:57 |
| brousch | So anything using Popen breaks on Android | 11:58 |
| brousch | Which includes Fabric | 11:58 |
| rick_h_ | yea, that's kind of stupid of android | 11:59 |
| rick_h_ | why I say it's not linux :P | 11:59 |
| brousch | Because they moved /bin/sh? | 12:01 |
| rick_h_ | yea | 12:02 |
| brousch | well sys.platform report 'linux-armv71'. That's Linuxy enough for me | 12:10 |
| rick_h_ | man, so I don't want to hate....but http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19909106 vs http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/10/10/2113239/in-under-10-hours-google-patches-chrome-to-plug-hole-found-at-its-pwnium-event | 12:14 |
| snap-l | rick_h_: Not sure where the hate is | 12:17 |
| rick_h_ | for greg-g when he gets up http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/11/bicymple/ kind of interesting | 12:17 |
| rick_h_ | snap-l: well it seems a bit FF bashing. I mean FF pulls the download and freaks out, Chrome just patches 10hrs later and deploys | 12:18 |
| brousch | Nobody's going to downgrade | 12:18 |
| brousch | They'll just use IE and Chrome until Thursday | 12:18 |
| rick_h_ | yea, so I'll hold off until I see how long it takes them to get the fix out | 12:18 |
| rick_h_ | but kind of sad | 12:18 |
| brousch | My users started getting FF16 yesterday or the day before. Now it is nagging them about old versions of plugins | 12:19 |
| snap-l | rick_h_: It might be serious enough not to have folks using it | 12:19 |
| snap-l | the BBC article doesn't go into a lot of detail | 12:19 |
| rick_h_ | yea, but the chrome bug was a complete ownage bug for the max reward | 12:19 |
| rick_h_ | so I can't imagine it's a higher level than the chrome one | 12:20 |
| snap-l | Well, exposing your history to a website is a privacy bug | 12:20 |
| snap-l | and that may be a little more scary to folks. :) | 12:21 |
| brousch | http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/10/10/2016218/ubuntu-asks-users-to-pay-what-they-want | 12:33 |
| snap-l | Way to be on the case, /. | 12:33 |
| brousch | eh? | 12:34 |
| snap-l | Actually, that was yesterday. SOrry | 12:34 |
| snap-l | thought it was today. | 12:34 |
| snap-l | Can I Fund Unity a Negative Amount? (Score:3, Insightful) | 12:34 |
| brousch | If it's old news, I missed it the first time | 12:34 |
| brousch | Yes! | 12:34 |
| rick_h_ | yea, it's been taking heat all day | 12:34 |
| snap-l | "Can I tell your dad yo pull out next time?" | 12:35 |
| rick_h_ | even paul ranted against it | 12:35 |
| brousch | Paul Bunyan? | 12:35 |
| snap-l | rick_h_: paul... ? | 12:35 |
| rick_h_ | Paul Tagliamonte (sp?) | 12:36 |
| snap-l | Wonder what got his goat | 12:36 |
| snap-l | Or is this Amazon Lens part 2 | 12:36 |
| rick_h_ | http://blog.pault.ag/post/33337643785/stuff-thats-bothering-me-about-ubuntu-right-now | 12:37 |
| snap-l | It has an option for donating to upstream projects | 12:37 |
| snap-l | seriously | 12:37 |
| rick_h_ | well you donate to ubuntu with the desire to see 'better upstream' or something | 12:38 |
| snap-l | and if your big hangup is that it's not sending money to Debian, then say "No thanks" and funnel the cash to Debian | 12:38 |
| rick_h_ | it's not a way to send direct $$ to debian | 12:38 |
| snap-l | Gettimg a little tired of "my special geode must be acknowledged at all times" thinking | 12:38 |
| rick_h_ | yea, I'm a giant 'whatever' to that tbh | 12:38 |
| rick_h_ | if you want to donate to debian, debian.org ...done | 12:38 |
| snap-l | precisely | 12:39 |
| brousch | Better coordination with Debian and upstreams | 12:39 |
| brousch | OH good, they have Better support for flavours like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu | 12:39 |
| snap-l | Yeah, and imagine the shitstorm on "Ubuntu 13.04, now with 2% more Debian interaction" | 12:39 |
| brousch | I might actually donate to that | 12:39 |
| snap-l | "ONLY 2%? GAHNARFLEFOP FOP FOP FOP" | 12:40 |
| brousch | There's no LAunchpad option. Poor rick_h_ | 12:40 |
| rick_h_ | :( | 12:40 |
| snap-l | on the same token, I'm wondering how much more of this the community can take | 12:40 |
| rick_h_ | that's ok, I don't work for "Launchpad" any more. I now work for "Cloud Engineering" | 12:41 |
| snap-l | Because it seems every release has some "rage factor" | 12:41 |
| brousch | If you want to stay interesting, you gotta keep everyone whipped to a foamy froth. Fox News taught us that. | 12:42 |
| * snap-l gives brousch the stink-eye. | 12:46 | |
| brousch | Ubuntu: The Fox News of Linux Distros | 12:46 |
| brousch | I don't really think that, BTW | 12:46 |
| brousch | I don't see the donation thing as bad. It's optional | 12:53 |
| rick_h_ | the donation thing existing before but it was moved to be more up front | 13:00 |
| brousch | See, I didn't even know it existed | 13:00 |
| rick_h_ | I didn't either | 13:01 |
| brousch | Where's the 'Put Shuttleworth on the moon" option? | 13:01 |
| * dzho isn't sure if that's meant in a good way or a bad way | 13:06 | |
| dzho | I mean, he's already a space case | 13:06 |
| brousch | I like him | 13:09 |
| jrwren | donate to ubuntu is foolish. I cannot respect any company that uses donations as a business model. either they are for profit or they aren't. | 13:10 |
| rick_h_ | yea, but that's the thing. Ubuntu isn't a for-profit company...canonical is | 13:10 |
| rick_h_ | it's a strange line to straddle | 13:10 |
| rick_h_ | and http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/119f6m/red_hat_salesman_just_fucked_up/ for the lol of the day | 13:10 |
| widox | haha | 13:14 |
| widox | I'm always double checking my mute status during calls | 13:14 |
| jrwren | ubuntu is a canonical product. | 13:43 |
| jrwren | what you just said is like saying Windows isn't a for-profit company... microsoft is. | 13:43 |
| snap-l | jrwren: That doesn't follow | 13:44 |
| rick_h_ | I don't know. We're in ubuntu-us-mi not canonical-us-mi | 13:44 |
| jrwren | how does it not follow? | 13:44 |
| rick_h_ | it's UDS, not canonical dev summit | 13:44 |
| snap-l | Ubuntu is an OS that is jointly developed with the community | 13:44 |
| jrwren | right, we use a product from canonical. | 13:44 |
| jrwren | snap-l: it is? how is it jointly developed with the community? | 13:44 |
| * jrwren mind is blown | 13:44 | |
| rick_h_ | debian merged every release? | 13:44 |
| snap-l | jrwren: I think Canonical tends to forget. ;) | 13:45 |
| jrwren | right, that isn't jointly developed any more than amazon's linux is joinly developed. | 13:45 |
| rick_h_ | ubuntu app contests and such | 13:45 |
| ColonelPanic001 | holy crap, if you guys do it at FSB in Lincoln Park, I'm in | 13:45 |
| rick_h_ | oh come on, that's a bit unfair | 13:45 |
| jrwren | app contests are marketing stuff, much like MSFT app conteests | 13:45 |
| ColonelPanic001 | I usually don't go to this stuff because it's an hour or whatever drive | 13:45 |
| ColonelPanic001 | but FSB is a semi-regular place for me | 13:45 |
| snap-l | ColonelPanic001: FSB? | 13:46 |
| rick_h_ | ^ | 13:46 |
| rick_h_ | front side bus | 13:46 |
| snap-l | Front Street Brewery | 13:46 |
| rick_h_ | oh | 13:47 |
| brousch | The release party should be held at a local Canonical employee's house | 13:47 |
| ColonelPanic001 | sorry, yeah | 13:48 |
| ColonelPanic001 | FSB == Fort Street Brewery | 13:48 |
| snap-l | Yeah, it's on the mailing list. | 13:52 |
| rick_h_ | gotcha, I looked it up | 13:52 |
| snap-l | Trying to schedule out the release party | 13:52 |
| snap-l | Looking for options, and for folks to contact these places to see if they could house is. | 13:52 |
| snap-l | s/is/us/ | 13:52 |
| brousch | snap-l: Is Royal Oak Brewery near your house? | 13:54 |
| snap-l | Yeah, it's close. | 13:54 |
| snap-l | We hit it frequently. | 13:54 |
| brousch | If it's there I might be able to swing the same deal as when I came last time | 13:54 |
| snap-l | http://goo.gl/maps/JG3JB | 13:55 |
| brousch | Bring my son, he can hang out with my sister, give my wife a day off | 13:55 |
| snap-l | Here's where Fort St. is: http://goo.gl/maps/5lC4x | 13:56 |
| snap-l | It's about 20 minutes from Royal Oak. | 13:56 |
| snap-l | So it wouldn't be completely out of the way. | 13:56 |
| snap-l | brousch: Hell, we could carpool if you wanted. :) | 13:56 |
| snap-l | I'm just looking for options so folks who know of an awesome place have a voice in this | 13:58 |
| ColonelPanic001 | Royal Oka Brewery was nice the one time I was there with rick_h_ | 13:58 |
| snap-l | as opposed to me looking around my neighborhood and picking something. :) | 13:58 |
| snap-l | ColonelPanic001: Yeah, we had MI Developers there | 13:58 |
| ColonelPanic001 | nice | 13:59 |
| ColonelPanic001 | I remember it as being a little less spacious than FSB, but for this, might not be enough to be worth worrying about | 13:59 |
| ColonelPanic001 | FSB is more of a "one big room" layout | 13:59 |
| snap-l | Yeah, this is one big room with a patio out back | 14:03 |
| snap-l | although witht he 50F days we've been having, that might not be a "good thing" (TM) | 14:03 |
| widox | ROB would still be more spacious then Liberty Street in Plymouth | 14:04 |
| ColonelPanic001 | Frozen Beer Slushies for everyone! | 14:04 |
| snap-l | widox: Yeah, but we seem to get folks that I never see any other time of the year at Plymouth | 14:05 |
| snap-l | like smoser. ;) | 14:06 |
| smoser | snap-l, i really wanted to go to mug | 14:06 |
| snap-l | smoser: Yeah, we missed you. It was a pretty good talk. | 14:07 |
| snap-l | FUSE is pretty neat, and how he intergrated it with PostgreSQL was interesting | 14:07 |
| snap-l | But I also know that UDS is around the corner, so that's a busy time for folks. | 14:09 |
| brousch | Darn a family thing has popped up on the 20th. So I'm only in for the 21st. | 14:10 |
| snap-l | brousch: Nuts. | 14:14 |
| brousch | Dangit, now people want to move the family to the 28th, so I have no idea | 14:14 |
| snap-l | Well, if more folks can't make it on the 20th, then maybe the 21st is a better option | 14:14 |
| brousch | But don't plan around me | 14:14 |
| snap-l | OK | 14:15 |
| brousch | Even with the family thing on the 20th it gets messy because that means my sister will probably stay in GR until the 21st | 14:20 |
| rick_h_ | greg-g: :P you're not supposed to use other linux distros, but it's cool if you have a mac/windows machine on the network you want to sync with | 14:23 |
| brousch | There are other distros? | 14:23 |
| snap-l | I <3 when something is 100x easier than I thought it would be | 14:26 |
| snap-l | That little bit of hacking on my python version of due_today that I did last night got me looking again at making it a plugin for todosh | 14:27 |
| snap-l | and all that I'd need to change is getting it to read an environment variable and show some help text | 14:27 |
| snap-l | https://github.com/ginatrapani/todo.txt-cli/wiki/Creating-and-Installing-Add-ons | 14:27 |
| brousch | snap-l: This seems like your kind of thing http://mediagoblin.org/pages/campaign.html | 14:40 |
| snap-l | brousch: Yeah, had I not moved to Picasa for photo hosting, I might check it out | 14:40 |
| snap-l | I still might | 14:40 |
| snap-l | greg-g: Damn you. Getting me to look up constitutionality of the Federal Reserve before lunch. ;) | 15:23 |
| snap-l | ^ ref: http://identi.ca/conversation/96468055#notice-97286892 | 15:25 |
| greg-g | rick_h_: :P | 15:58 |
| greg-g | snap-l: hahaha, sorry, pete and I can get into it at times ;) | 15:59 |
| jcastro_ | you know | 15:59 |
| jcastro_ | this might sound weird | 15:59 |
| jcastro_ | but I do miss wool pants | 15:59 |
| rick_h_ | yes, that sounds strange alright | 15:59 |
| jcastro_ | I am wearing my comfy wool pants, if I would have stayed in Florida I would not have gotten to enjoy them | 16:00 |
| snap-l | jcastro_: You're right | 16:00 |
| snap-l | Wool, or fleece? | 16:00 |
| jcastro_ | wool | 16:00 |
| greg-g | I too love wool | 16:00 |
| greg-g | I might start wearing a wool bike jersey to commute | 16:01 |
| jcastro_ | I need to find wherever my wool socks are | 16:01 |
| snap-l | greg-g: The fun part about that conversation is it's like debating a religious fundamentalist | 16:01 |
| snap-l | ie: constitution as written, and not taking into account the myriad of historic cases that defined the document | 16:02 |
| rick_h_ | never had wool pants before so guess I don't understand | 16:02 |
| snap-l | Last time I had wool pants was a marching band uniform | 16:02 |
| snap-l | it was the antithesis of comfort. | 16:02 |
| jcastro_ | rick_h_, basically, winter indoor pants | 16:04 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro_: there's no such thing. Indoor it's shorts or bust | 16:05 |
| jcastro_ | so instead of cranking up the heat I just put them on | 16:05 |
| jcastro_ | yeah, but now that I have a house I have become an even cheaper bastard | 16:05 |
| * rick_h_ was wearing a hoodie with my shorts this morning | 16:05 | |
| jcastro_ | so it's like, pants come on vs. raising the thermostat | 16:05 |
| jcastro_ | rick_h_, hah, me too | 16:05 |
| rick_h_ | ok, bought a GSM mifi device. We'll see how well this works out | 16:06 |
| rick_h_ | man does this seem 100x harder than it should be | 16:06 |
| snap-l | rick_h_: Is it compatible with the US Verizon? | 16:06 |
| rick_h_ | so no, I'll get a prepaid ATT card to test it with before I leave | 16:07 |
| snap-l | Ah, so it's AT&T then? | 16:07 |
| rick_h_ | well it's global. Does all kinds of networks | 16:07 |
| rick_h_ | but it's GSM and not CDMA | 16:07 |
| rick_h_ | and not LTE | 16:07 |
| greg-g | cool | 16:07 |
| snap-l | Unlocked? | 16:07 |
| rick_h_ | :( | 16:07 |
| rick_h_ | yea, unlcoked | 16:07 |
| snap-l | OK. | 16:07 |
| greg-g | jcastro_: dude, I was cheap bastard when I rented, but mostly because I rented cheap places where I paid heat | 16:08 |
| jcastro_ | I'm just working on becoming a cheaper bastard | 16:08 |
| rick_h_ | HSPA+/HSPA/UMTS 2100/900MHz, EDGE/GPRS/GSM 1900/1800/900/850 MHz | 16:08 |
| jrwren | jcastro_: I too am waering wool trousers. Mine are partly silk lined and very comfy. | 16:08 |
| jcastro_ | but I am a technologically minded cheap bastard | 16:08 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro_: yea, says the nest in the corner :P | 16:09 |
| jcastro_ | so like, LED lightbulbs might be expensive, but I'm more longrun cheap | 16:09 |
| jcastro_ | rick_h_, yeah, but it does save me money vs. the POS thermostat that was unusable before it | 16:09 |
| snap-l | https://ting.com/devices/Sprint-Airave | 16:09 |
| jcastro_ | which was so hard to use my only recourse was "heat on, heat off" because the thing was designed by morons | 16:09 |
| rick_h_ | snap-l: I looked at the ting hotspot but only US freq | 16:10 |
| jcastro_ | also, when we have our house party, I will show you the epic UI of my lawn sprinkler controller | 16:10 |
| snap-l | Yeah, Sprint isn't international | 16:10 |
| rick_h_ | https://ting.com/devices/Huawei-5072 CDMA 800/1900 MHz | 16:10 |
| jcastro_ | it's basically the stupidest design I've ever seen | 16:10 |
| snap-l | Damn CDMA devices. | 16:10 |
| rick_h_ | jcastro_: hah, my neighbor's control is push button | 16:10 |
| rick_h_ | it's crazy | 16:10 |
| snap-l | jcastro_: Um, unless you have dimmer-heat, aren't most thermostats heat on / heat off? | 16:11 |
| snap-l | or do you have some fancy zone control | 16:11 |
| jcastro_ | snap-l, it's on/off | 16:11 |
| jcastro_ | but the scheduling is automatic | 16:11 |
| jcastro_ | ie. you don't need to program it | 16:11 |
| snap-l | Yeah, we have a cheapie programmable. | 16:12 |
| jcastro_ | after a while it knows I like it warm in the morning and cool off during the day | 16:12 |
| snap-l | Won a wifi-enabled thermostat, but it's not compatible with our current house | 16:12 |
| jcastro_ | the cool thing about the nest is actually in the summer | 16:12 |
| jcastro_ | where it will keep the fan running but the compressor off while it cools | 16:12 |
| jcastro_ | it can save you something like 30% | 16:12 |
| snap-l | That's nice | 16:13 |
| jcastro_ | and of course, keeping a history of all your usage is nice | 16:13 |
| jcastro_ | stupid that they don't have an API | 16:13 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-RTH230B-5-2-Programmable-Thermostat/dp/B000EW5U86/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1349971980&sr=8-4&keywords=honeywell+thermostat | 16:13 |
| rick_h_ | is what I have | 16:13 |
| jcastro_ | I am investigating whole-house energy meters so I can measure my usage | 16:13 |
| rick_h_ | set it 6am, 68deg, then 8am 64, then 5pm, 68, then 8pm 64 | 16:14 |
| rick_h_ | something like that | 16:14 |
| jcastro_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtFOXq_iIe4 | 16:14 |
| jcastro_ | I asked DTW to get into this program ^^ | 16:14 |
| jcastro_ | err, DTE | 16:14 |
| jcastro_ | but it was a "don't call us, we'll call you" | 16:14 |
| snap-l | jcastro_: They're heavily invested in the smart appliances program | 16:29 |
| snap-l | forgot the acronym | 16:29 |
| jcastro_ | yeah | 16:29 |
| snap-l | It's the privacy-destroying one that people can figure out if you have your refrigerator on too high | 16:29 |
| jcastro_ | it's just hard to get in on it | 16:29 |
| snap-l | I thought it was pretty automatic | 16:30 |
| snap-l | ie: get smart meter, and you're there. | 16:30 |
| jcastro_ | I don't have a smart meter afaict | 16:30 |
| snap-l | Yeah, you'd know | 16:31 |
| snap-l | If you have to wait 10 seconds to read it, it's a smart meter. ;) | 16:31 |
| widox | I don't think they started rolling them out widespread yet; there were concerns from customers | 16:45 |
| widox | and, they'll be raising everyones rate for them | 16:45 |
| widox | I don't think you as a customer get access to the data though; just whatever DTE gives you via their webapp | 16:46 |
| widox | could be wrong though | 16:46 |
| snap-l | widox: I think that's one of the biggest concerns | 16:50 |
| widox | and, omg, it emits radio frequencies!!!1! | 16:50 |
| snap-l | "Mr. widox, you're using way too much electricity for this residence. May we come in?" | 16:50 |
| snap-l | (said in a slightly less poilite manner) | 16:51 |
| widox | yeah - I mean I dont' see an issue with it. I'm paying for the power, they already know how much I get in total | 16:51 |
| snap-l | Once you get away from aggregated numbers, people get weird. | 16:53 |
| widox | I'm sure Richard Stallman is behind it because we can't see the source | 16:53 |
| snap-l | "I don't mind if the project knows how many downloads it gets this month, but I'll burn your house down if you tell them I downloaded it" | 16:53 |
| widox | true, but I don't think it knows what exactly is drawing power. just that a 3pm you used more then at 3am | 16:54 |
| snap-l | widox: With the smart meters, it'll know what device draws what power | 16:55 |
| snap-l | iirc, it sets up a mini LAN of your appliances. | 16:55 |
| snap-l | each knowing how much it's drawing, and reporting that back to DTE | 16:55 |
| snap-l | who then can send signals back to those unints | 16:56 |
| snap-l | I think it's supposed to be the smart version of AC units in the summer on a separate, controlled circuit | 16:56 |
| snap-l | ie: load gets too high, they can be intermittently shut down. | 16:57 |
| rick_h_ | wooooooo!!!!! http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2012-October/009646.html | 16:59 |
| snap-l | Ew, lxml. | 17:00 |
| snap-l | Nobody uses XML anymore. ;) | 17:00 |
| rick_h_ | heh, except breadability | 17:00 |
| snap-l | Thanks for visiting our online store recently. We noticed you left some items in your cart and want to make sure you know the | 17:00 |
| snap-l | +benefits of buying direct. If you experienced a problem during checkout, we'd like to help. | 17:01 |
| snap-l | Shit, I left some books unpurchased at O'Reilly? | 17:01 |
| rick_h_ | whoops | 17:01 |
| snap-l | Not sure why I got that. My cart is clean. | 17:01 |
| snap-l | Just found that funny: we noticed you haven't bought something. Is there a problem? | 17:02 |
| snap-l | "Normally the resistance between our books and your wallet is 0 ohms, and we noted a fluctuation in that measurement" | 17:04 |
| jcastro_ | snap-l, yeah but your appliance needs to support that | 17:20 |
| jcastro_ | which is kind of cool because you can do "dishwasher, turn on at night when it's cheap." | 17:20 |
| jrwren | rick_h_: Huawei is evil! don't buy it! | 17:31 |
| rick_h_ | jrwren: :( | 17:32 |
| rick_h_ | but it's the best I can come up with looking at things | 17:32 |
| jrwren | it will probably crash a lot if it is like other huawei devices. | 17:34 |
| rick_h_ | seems a common issue with all these things | 17:35 |
| rick_h_ | I spent a while going through various amazon reviews of various devices | 17:35 |
| rick_h_ | this one doesn't have a ton, but the other related device was rated pretty well | 17:35 |
| brousch | Huaweii devices all have a backdoor for the Chinese govt built in | 17:36 |
| rick_h_ | yea, I'm sure they can get their free porn more easily than chasing my connection down :P | 17:36 |
| rick_h_ | I'm seriously cranky that verizon won't unlock any of their devices :( | 17:37 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006FOAV1I/ref=s9_simh_gw_p107_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=16A96XQ1BA186B3YB6NA&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846 has all kinds of issues | 17:37 |
| rick_h_ | on several sites the hardware is rated as very poor, hot, shuts down/reboots | 17:38 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.amazon.com/UNLOCKED-HUAWEI-HSDPA-WCDMA-MOBILE/dp/B004SLEX8C/ref=pd_ybh_5 I almost got but shipped from china and a review or two about it not being unlocked in fact | 17:38 |
| rick_h_ | http://www.amazon.com/Unlocked-ZTE-Mobile-Hotspot-Router/dp/B0084CZRKE/ref=pd_ybh_11 was the other one I considered | 17:39 |
| brousch | Oh it's unlocked. It's unlocked right to the Communist overlords | 17:39 |
| rick_h_ | but the other one is HSPA+ | 17:39 |
| rick_h_ | so should get better speeds if I use it on ATT ever and such | 17:39 |
| jrwren | i think i'll upgrade my home server to quetzel | 22:18 |
| jrwren | i mean, how much change can there be between now and release? | 22:18 |
| rick_h_ | not much | 22:36 |
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