[07:12] <fwereade__> morning wrtp
[07:12] <wrtp> fwereade__: hiya
[07:20] <TheMue> morning
[07:21] <wrtp> TheMue: mornin'
[07:21] <TheMue> wrtp: heya
[07:22] <fwereade__> TheMue, heyhey
[07:22] <TheMue> fwereade__: hi
[08:43] <fwereade__> wrtp, TheMue: I think https://codereview.appspot.com/6737050 is a trivial
[08:45] <TheMue> fwereade__: LGTM
[08:45] <fwereade__> TheMue, thanks
[08:46] <wrtp> fwereade__: looking
[08:48] <wrtp> fwereade__: why can't we use the same log file for output and log messages?
[08:49] <wrtp> fwereade__: in fact, we could just send log messages to stdout, maybe
[08:50] <fwereade__> wrtp, I dunno, I feel that it's a different class of message... anything going to out is evidence that we've royally screwed up somewhere
[08:50] <wrtp> fwereade__: i'm somewhat -1 on adding another log file to monitor
[08:51] <fwereade__> wrtp, well, it was always there in python, and it saved us hours of debugging there, and would have saved it for us the other day too
[08:51] <wrtp> fwereade__: i'm definitely not -1 on using Out
[08:51] <fwereade__> wrtp, in fact I'm pretty sure I LGTMed your container code only on the condition that you added it :/
[08:52] <fwereade__> wrtp, but, meh, easy to miss :)
[08:52] <wrtp> fwereade__: the nice thing about having output go to the same file as log messages is that you can see the output in context
[08:53] <wrtp> fwereade__: given that, probably, the only output we're going to see is a panic stack trace, i think that's useful.
[08:54] <fwereade__> wrtp, or errors from before logging is set up, or failure to even launch the process
[08:54] <fwereade__> wrtp, it's a backstop for should-never-happen errors
[08:54] <wrtp> fwereade__: true too. but it's all good to see in the context of the other logging messages (for instance the ones that were logged on the previous run)
[08:56] <fwereade__> wrtp, are you suggesting replacing --log-file with an Out then?
[08:56] <fwereade__> wrtp, or using both to write to the same place?
[08:57] <wrtp> fwereade__: if we just remove the --log-file flag, will the Out field cause the stderr log msgs to go to the log file?
[08:58] <fwereade__> wrtp, think so, haven't tried
[08:58] <wrtp> fwereade__: yeah, it looks like it will
[08:58] <fwereade__> wrtp, but does make it somewhat tricky to add log rotation in future, I think
[08:58] <wrtp> fwereade__: that's an interesting point.
[08:59] <fwereade__> wrtp, and that does feel like something we will need sooner or later
[08:59] <wrtp> fwereade__: we could potentially implement log rotation by restarting the agent, i suppose
[09:00] <wrtp> fwereade__: if it's sufficiently infrequent, that's probably no problem
[09:00] <fwereade__> wrtp, that approach feels a bit lumpen to me, but maybe it's a matter of taste
[09:01] <wrtp> fwereade__: yeah, i know what you mean
[09:01] <fwereade__> wrtp, anyway, I think we have passed the "this is not trivial" milestone in this discussion
[09:01] <wrtp> fwereade__: sorry
[09:01] <fwereade__> wrtp, I'm fine punting that decision to niemeyer -- I don't *really* care how we get the panics, just that we do somehow getthem :)
[09:01] <fwereade__> wrtp, np at all
[09:02] <fwereade__> wrtp, whatever we implement should be pretty simple in the end
[09:02] <wrtp> fwereade__: yeah
[09:08]  * wrtp wishes upstart had a reference manual
[09:27] <Aram> moin.
[09:27] <Aram> davecheney: any chance of recording from the gophers' meeting?
[09:47] <TheMue> Aram: moin, moin
[09:48] <davecheney> Aram: sorry, thre was no recording
[09:48] <davecheney> but the slides are online
[09:48] <Aram> pity.
[09:48] <davecheney> talks.golang.org
[09:48] <Aram> yeah, seen them.
[09:48] <davecheney> sorry, very low fi
[09:48] <davecheney> we didn't have it at the swanky google offices
[09:59] <fwereade__> hmm, how does anyone else feel about s/RelationEndpoint/Endpoint/ ?
[10:05] <wrtp> fwereade__: in state, presumably?
[10:05] <fwereade__> wrtp, yeah
[10:06] <fwereade__> wrtp, Endpoint only means one thing, just like Unit, and we don't call Unit ServiceUnit
[10:06] <fwereade__> wrtp, (RelationUnit is, I think, different, because it really is a combination of a Relation and a Unit)
[10:06] <wrtp> fwereade__: mixed feelings. on the one hand, i think "yeah, great idea - shorter name". one the other hand, the state name space is quite crowded.
[10:07] <fwereade__> wrtp, expand on the second bit -- don't see how a simple name change affects the crowdedness
[10:07] <wrtp> fwereade__: it's just that it's not always obvious which names relate to which things.
[10:07] <wrtp> fwereade__: but on balance i'm probably +1
[10:08] <fwereade__> wrtp, ok, I'll probably run it past niemeyer when he arrives
[10:08] <fwereade__> wrtp, cheers :)
[10:08] <fwereade__> later all, lunchtime
[10:57] <davecheney> http://codereview.appspot.com/6734043/
[11:04] <dimitern> hey, this is fwereade in the wrong place... am I meant to be in a meeting
[11:05] <dimitern> (I went to fix cath's aunt's toilet over lunch, and it took a bit longer tan expected, but dimiter's house is on the way home...)
[11:08] <davecheney> meeting ?
[11:08] <davecheney> not that i know of
[11:09] <wrtp> dimitern: neither me
[11:09] <dimitern> wrtp: well, it's dimitern again, fwereade is on the way home now :)
[11:10] <wrtp> dimitern: :-)
[11:10] <wrtp> dimitern: nice meetin' ya :-)
[11:10] <wrtp> (if this could actually be called "meeting"...)
[11:13] <dimitern> wrtp: likewise :)
[11:31] <fwereade__> hey again all
[11:32] <fwereade__> I just had a sudden hey-wait-we-sometimes-meet-on-fridays-I-hope-it's-not-today moment
[11:47] <davecheney> fwereade__: yeah, blah blah, airplanes, blah blah, uds
[11:47] <davecheney> during this season, regular concerns are suspended
[11:47] <fwereade__> davecheney, haha :)
[12:27] <niemeyer> Hello all!
[12:29] <niemeyer> I'll step out to run some errands I have to sort before Copenhagen.. back later.
[12:29] <fss> niemeyer: morning :-)
[16:30] <hazmat> niemeyer_, g'morning had a question re the bzr revid that the store could serve up (namely how to access), pls ping me when your around
[16:35] <niemeyer_> hazmat: Heya
[16:35] <niemeyer_> hazmat: It's already implemented, but it's not yet deployed
[16:35] <niemeyer_> hazmat: We have to sync up with mthaddon to get it out
[16:35] <niemeyer_> hazmat: It's just another field on that usual charm doc info
[16:36] <hazmat> niemeyer_, ah.. okay. i was wondering about that. will it just appear in the store data for a given charm alongside revision and sha?
[16:36] <hazmat> cool
[16:36] <niemeyer_> info doc
[16:36] <hazmat> perfect, then the browser will just pick it up
[16:36] <niemeyer_> hazmat: "digest", specifically
[16:36] <niemeyer_> hazmat: The generic term is because it doesn't really matter for the store.. it's whatever the revision control labels it
[16:37] <hazmat> sounds good, i just wanted to make sure it was in the info doc.
[17:41] <wrtp> time to stop for the day.
[17:42] <wrtp> have a great weekend everyone, see y'all monday or in copenhagen!
[20:25] <hazmat> wrtp, cheers