[00:03] <len-dt> holstein, just so you know. IN the case of upgrading from 12.04 to 12.10, the publishing meta will be missing and part of the photography meta will be missing. The user can add these with apt-get or synaptic.
[00:05] <len-dt> holstein, there are a few (one or two) apps that we have replaced with new ones that will still be there as well. But these are minor. task-manager has been replaced with system-monitor for example. The upgraded system would have both.
[03:34] <holstein> len-dt: cool... someone was upgrading earlier... i should get that on a wiki somwhere
[03:34] <holstein> len-dt: i think that works fine
[03:36] <Len-nb> holstein, Ja I saw that. I figured people should know what does and doesn't work. Basically the upgrade does every package already on your machine, so even extra software the user has added will be upgraded.
[03:37] <holstein> i still think a fresh install is the way to go
[03:38] <Len-nb> If we add the two missing metas to the desktop meta, then those will be added as well and the upgrade will be as close to the new install as possible
[03:38] <Len-nb> I agree
[03:38] <Len-nb> but some people....
[03:38] <holstein> Len-nb: the release looks awesome though
[03:38] <holstein> i feel like upgrading to it!
[03:38] <Len-nb> Glad you like it.
[03:39] <holstein> i like playing with it on the big rig
[03:39] <Len-nb> It isn't that much different from 12.04 more polish.
[03:39] <holstein> i think i actually will take the time to clean up and move things around and install it on the studio rig
[03:40] <holstein> try and keep it that way, so i'll not feel like i cant install 13.x
[03:40] <holstein> its gotta be easy, or i get comfortable/lazy
[03:40] <Len-nb> We have almost (with the sw available) done as much for audio as we can. I would like to se us do the same for the other workflows
[03:41] <holstein> and, TBH, for me, theres really nothing new in 12.10 that i need over 10.04
[03:41] <holstein> ardour is the same... the plugins i use...
[03:41] <holstein> Len-nb: we need some graphics and video folks
[03:42] <Len-nb> Yes! but we need a platform that interests them first
[03:42] <Len-nb> Then they might show up and tweak it
[03:42] <holstein> true
[03:42] <holstein> Len-nb: i like how the pulse JACK sink just works out of the box
[03:43] <holstein> i'll want to know how to get rid of it.. but it works great
[03:43] <Len-nb> I wish pulse was done a bit better.
[03:43] <Len-nb> I think that when jackd starts, pulse should auto move any streams that go to the device jack uses to jack
[03:44] <holstein> that would be great
[03:44] <Len-nb> in fact pulse should use the same name and setup
[03:44] <Len-nb> so in my case it should remain stereo instead of suround
[03:45] <Len-nb> I actually set pulse not to auto connect. The bridge is there but I have a jack session that just connects two channels
[03:46] <Len-nb> The two bridging modules do have a parameter for number of channels, but
[03:46] <Len-nb> they can't be set when auto loaded
[03:47] <Len-nb> I need to put together a proposal to set as a wish list item to drop on the pulse devs
[03:48] <Len-nb> :)
[03:48] <holstein> cool... i know falk has had a hard time working with them
[03:48] <Len-nb> He is not the only one
[03:49] <Len-nb> I would word it in such a way as to make it seem favourable to them rather than jack...
[03:49] <Len-nb> But not hold my breath either
[03:51] <Len-nb> 2015 I might try hacking it if the problem is still there... or anything else for that matter.
[03:51] <Len-nb> A lot can happen in a few years
[03:51] <holstein> yup
[03:51] <holstein> might be using pulse at a resonable latency by then... or whatever its replacement might be
[03:51] <Len-nb> But I should have time for more stuff then
[03:51] <Len-nb> jackd 3 might have showed up
[03:52] <Len-nb> ardour 4 might be beta
[03:52] <Len-nb> both might be history too
[03:54] <holstein> never know... i dont think ardour is going anywhere
[03:55] <Len-nb> No but it depends on jackd and alsa
[03:56] <Len-nb> I remember using oss and being surprised how fast alsa took over
[03:59] <Len-nb> for all my computer work I am still an acoustic (mostly... and getting more so) musician
[04:01] <Len-nb> I record sounds with the computer because it sounds better than tape (and is cheaper too)
[04:02] <Len-nb> I have no thought of "making" music with a computer. That is why things like LMMS are foreign to me holstein 
[04:02] <holstein> yeah... me too
[04:07] <Len-nb> Anyway, soon as the new seeds are out and we are getting daily builds again, I will tuck LMMS in there and see if it still builds and what it does with it
[04:08] <Len-nb> though our friend who liked it so much has moved on to qtracktor
[08:26] <ailo> One would almost want to jump in and start developing some of those applications to include the things one thinks they are missing
[09:07] <ailo> On graphics and photography related workflows, we should really communicate with the ubuntu-art team
[09:07] <ailo> Probably there's people there who do video too
[10:22] <drupin> ailo: where can i download and how the testing
[12:15] <astraljava> drupin: What is it that you want to test?
[12:51] <ailo> whoa, I thought there was an IRC echo
[12:51] <ailo> Until I notices, this time I didn't answer the question
[12:52] <ailo> drupin: Are asking where to download the latest Ubuntu Studio? http://ubuntustudio.org/download/
[12:54] <ailo> drupin: There's no testing going on at the moment
[12:55] <ailo> drupin: You're welcome to help with testing during the next development cycle, but it will be a while before there's a new ISO out
[13:12] <drupin> smary boy told me lat thet it will be on 11
[13:12] <drupin> smartboy
[13:12] <drupin> smartboy told me that it will be on 11 oct
[13:28] <ailo> drupin: Well, it's 20th Oct now. Ubuntu 12.10 was release a couple of days ago
[13:31] <drupin> ok
[14:47] <smartboyhw> Duh what is this guy about? Marketing..... We already not have enough human resources! ...
[14:50] <smartboyhw> What do you think about this? http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=12306387&postcount=50
[15:50] <holstein> ailo: you think the art team uses mac's?
[15:51] <holstein> ive had quite a few messages back and forth with Jono Bacon about using US for his audio production
[17:10] <ailo> holstein: No idea. But, in any case, they should be the experts on graphic workflows
[17:10] <ailo> I just saw a mail about one guy wanting to join who is a photographer
[17:12] <ailo> To get a good idea of video workflows, someone would need to research about it, and find some group/channel and bug them for info
[17:12] <ailo> I think ubuntu-art aught be the ultimate group for asking about graphics
[17:16] <ailo> Actually, why not start with their wiki pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation
[17:16] <ailo> Len-nb: ^
[17:16] <ailo> Seems to have some useful info
[17:19] <len-dt> ailo,  I am not sure where you are going with that. It seems to be about making art for a distro. I thought we were talking about making our graphics section work for artists.
[17:19] <len-dt> That does not mean there are not similarities...
[17:20] <len-dt> I guess I have never really thought about what artists we are aiming for.
[17:21] <len-dt> I had not thought of creating artwork for a distro before... blind spot. But then graphics in general is for me.
[17:22] <len-dt> I am realizing (as I told holstein ) that my interests are quite specialized
[17:23] <ailo> len-dt: I'm merely stating that the people in ubuntu-art are more or less expert artists, most likely using Ubuntu for art, so they would be the people to ask about which tools should be included by default, and what their workflows are like
[17:23] <len-dt> Ja, I realize that.
[17:24] <len-dt> And as I said it is a valid use of an art distro too
[17:25] <ailo> I'm not putting any focus on the art for Ubuntu, or a distro. Just art and artists in general, using Ubuntu for making graphics
[17:25]  * len-dt is still just thinking a little more widely than art is some kind of image
[17:26] <ailo> Ok, let me say again. The point has nothing to do with the object of what ubuntu-art is doing, but that the people there are experts on graphic applications
[17:26] <ailo> Not only for ubuntu-art, but in general
[17:26] <len-dt> Yes I got that
[17:27] <len-dt> What I am saying is that I am an idiot when it comes to art
[17:27] <ailo> I don't think there is anyone here who is much above that classification, when it comes to graphics
[17:27] <len-dt> I am just starting to think beyond ya that too.
[17:28] <len-dt> The first thing that occurs  to me is that does the type of desktop matter to an artist?
[17:29] <ailo> Probably, like for anyone else, it's a matter of personal preference, regarding the desktop. But, the choice of applications, resources, command line tools, etc, etc
[17:29] <len-dt> These are people who are more visually stimulated than I might be. I want a desktop that functions without any extra wierdness
[17:30] <ailo> And what are typical workflows like? You have files, and you have applications. And then there is some kind of process from start to finish
[17:30] <len-dt> Anyway, yes it would help to define what should be in the graphics meta better.
[17:34]  * len-dt sometimes forgets we also offer a set of metas
[17:35] <len-dt> ailo, are there any ppas (like kzstudio for example) that deals with graphics apps?
[17:41] <ailo> len-dt: Not something I've ever investigated. Googling seems to only reveal PPA's with artwork in them
[17:41] <ailo> If I would want to know more about it, I would just head over to ubuntu-art and introduce myself
[17:41] <ailo> But, I'm not about to do that atm, anyway
[17:43] <len-dt> Ja, I am thinking no more than ideas right now. I am not sure who will do the blue print this time... our leader doesn't seem to be here.
[17:45] <len-dt> hmm, "Surpass Apple in the quality of the user experience."??
[17:46] <len-dt> Interesting I guess I will need to get a mac so I know what Ubuntu is aiming for :)
[18:03]  * len-dt thinks being able to afford the computer in the first place is part of his user experience
[18:10] <astraljava> Well, yes. It helps becoming a user.
[18:11] <len-dt> astraljava, I think user experience is very closely linked to what the user is used to.
[18:13] <len-dt> for me either mac or win (or unity or the new gnome for that matter) I have to learn it ffirst.
[18:18] <astraljava> Sure, but there's the first experience, and then the more accustomed user's regular usage.
[18:23] <ailo> len-dt: holstein: astraljava: Perhaps we should have a meeting about the coming cycle? atm, I don't feel there is anything that needs special attention - even if we changed nothing, but just adressed bugs, the next release would be as good as this one. We should at least see who is going to be commited for the next cycle
[18:24] <ailo> There are things cooking, that just need to be ironed out
[18:24] <len-dt> ailo, ja
[18:25] <ailo> astraljava: How is your schedule looking the next 6 months?
[18:25] <len-dt> ailo, I will have somewhat less time than I had in the summer.
[18:29] <astraljava> ailo: I'll probably not commit to anything in advance. I may fix bugs, roll a package or three, code something new, but I cannot set anything in stone.
[18:30] <ailo> Well, we'll need to put together some blueprints at least. I don't think it's important to have a definite deadline on many of things we want to do.
[18:31] <ailo> We should talk to Scott about if he wants to take the lead this cycle. If not, we should take over his duties until he's ready to come back
[18:32] <len-dt> I would still like to see us have our own icons for anything unique to US like the menu directory files
[18:33] <len-dt> I thought we had some people interested... but seems to have vanished. I do have three we can look at.
[18:34] <ailo> len-dt: We should draft the blueprints somehwere. Either the wiki, or the mail list
[18:34] <len-dt> mail list will get Scott's attention better than a wiki
[18:34] <ailo> On the mail list, we could get more people giving ideas - more discussion
[18:34] <len-dt> That too
[18:36] <ailo> Ok, so if we start a thread, we just add suggestions for next cycle. Then make a blueprint out of it. I don't think it matters if all items in a blueprint are ever finished. Important thing is we have a list of things. I know what I want to do, and I expect it's like that for all of us
[18:37] <len-dt> I had sort of been doing that. Not sure how much people had seen
[18:38] <ailo> len-dt: Which thread was that?
[18:38] <len-dt>  	Thoughts on 12.10
[18:38] <len-dt> Some things are taken care of already
[18:39] <len-dt> I think there may have been another message somewhere too.
[18:41] <len-dt> We can start another thread. Fresh
[18:42] <ailo> Yea, we need a suitable title, so people keep to the subject
[18:42] <ailo> Brainstorming for 13.04, or something like that
[18:43] <len-dt> Are there any postponed items from 12.10 BP we want to carry forward?
[18:43] <ailo> There are lot's of them
[18:44] <ailo> But, I think we should clean the old ones up a bit. 
[18:44] <len-dt> I wouldn't say all...
[18:47] <len-dt> Is the same catagory breakdown ok?
[18:47] <len-dt> or is it best to figure out the items first?
[18:49] <ailo> I think we can just bring up more items first, and then do the categorization.
[18:49] <len-dt> Just reading more of the artworks stuff: "Make widgets look like they could be touched and it would feel good. "
[18:50] <ailo> hmm :)
[18:52] <astraljava> Hah. :)
[18:53] <astraljava> But yeah, wouldn't it be great, to have a virtual mixer board on two 24" wide touch screens?
[18:53] <len-dt> Or here's one: "Especially the wallpaper, as it is expected to be a new one for each release."
[18:53] <astraljava> Hehehe. Where do you get this stuff?
[18:54] <len-dt> The link ailo gave above or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Message
[18:54] <len-dt> Dated 2009
[18:55] <len-dt> I was thinking one of those artists tablets would make a good mix board too.
[18:55] <astraljava> Ahh... ok, but then that's not Studio-specific.
[18:55] <len-dt> astraljava, no ubuntu specific, but we are expected to have similar goals
[18:56] <len-dt> They are not bad goals, they leave a lot of room for interpretation... which is good.
[18:57] <astraljava> True, true.
[18:58] <len-dt> Actually this is stuff I wish I had seen before I started helping with development as it would have helped me focus more correctly
[19:01] <astraljava> Better late than never, if you still intend to do dev stuff, that is. :)
[19:01] <astraljava> Whoa, managed to avoid typos, whilst staring at the telly the whole time. :)
[19:02] <len-dt> I got some of it already... I was wondering why eveyone so up on OOTB for a while...
[19:02]  * len-dt makes typos just because...
[19:04] <astraljava> "up on out-of-the-box?" What's that?
[19:05] <len-dt> as in working OOTB
[19:05] <len-dt> There have been a lot of things I have found I need to do after OOTB before my system(s) work well for audio
[19:14] <astraljava> Right, yeah if something could be done about that.
[19:16] <ailo> I think this category should be discarded in the next blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-q-future
[19:16] <ailo> The items there belong to other categories
[19:16] <ailo> Just noting
[19:17] <len-dt> I agree. None of them will get finished anyway.
[19:21] <ailo> I'm writing a post about blueprints for next cycle. I'm doing some kind of intro, but mostly to inform non team members
[19:29] <ailo> k, posted
[19:30] <len-dt> Wow.
[19:31] <len-dt> I think those are good. I think for blue prints some of them should be broken into smaller chunks so we can use DONE more often even for partly completed things.
[19:32] <len-dt> But for discussion they are good
[19:33] <len-dt> This past cycle we did a lot of work that doesn't show in the BP because it wasn't "DONE"
[19:34] <len-dt> The PTB would probably like to see those accomplishments as well.
[19:35] <len-dt> another reason for breaking down more is that it gives new helpers/devs more of a feeling that "I can do that much".
[19:35] <ailo> Well, all of that already does exist in one way or another in the blue prints. Aside form the -controls and the panel apps
[19:37] <ailo> Would be good to clean up the blueprints a bit though. Also, I think if people catch on, and want to help, either there is someone in charge of a category, or they become in charge of that category
[19:37] <ailo> I mean, say documentation. I'm the lead, so I do the organizing. 
[19:38] <ailo> Doesn't mean I decide everything. Just that I'm the secretary, so to speak
[19:38] <ailo> If someone wants to help, I can point them to a task
[19:39] <ailo> If no one is the lead of something, they have to organize it themselves
[19:41] <ailo> hungry evil. Time to feed the monster
[19:43] <len-dt> Ya I understood that, just that if a part of a document is listed as a separate item it can be called done even if the whole document isn't
[19:44] <len-dt> So even if it starts as one document, say the video workflow, but someone does just a short part on getting video into the machine... just one step
[19:45] <len-dt> we could make that a new blue print item that can be called done. This way we can keep track of parts of things that get done without waiting for the whole.
[19:46] <len-dt> I don't know how flexible the BP system is. If it can have more layers than two for example.
[19:49] <len-dt> If not we can use keywords for the same thing.
[20:09] <ailo> len-dt: We can add sub-categories, if we want. Like: user-doc:audio
[20:09] <ailo> If needed
[20:09] <ailo> But, I wouldn't get too particular with that
[20:10] <ailo> The important thing is whoever is wanting to do something, knows what to do
[20:18] <len-dt> k
[20:32] <ailo> I sent an email to Scott about next cycle btw
[20:32] <ailo> Just asking him what his plans are