/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/10/23/#ubuntu-uk.txt

popeymorning06:47
Knightwisemorning everyone06:51
Knightwisehey theopensourcerer07:04
diploMorning all07:16
Knightwisehey diplo07:16
Knightwisehow are you today07:16
diplonot bad thanks, yourself ?07:20
diploSorry starting everything up on the other machine07:20
Knightwiseno worriez07:20
Knightwiseinstalled 12.10 yesterday07:20
Knightwisethinking of rolling back to 12.04 for a couple of months07:20
christelmorning07:20
Knightwisehey  christel07:20
popeyKnightwise, why's that?07:20
diploI think 12.10 is a lot better, defo preffered a clean install though07:21
Knightwisepopey: the 'web integration' doesnt appear to "kick in" when i visit gmail.com and stuff07:21
popeywhat browser?07:22
Knightwise+ some of the apps like lightread and fogger arent there yet07:22
Knightwisepopey: tried both firefox and chrome07:22
popeychrome wont work07:22
popeyfirefox and chromium only07:22
Knightwiseah ok07:22
Knightwisehave to try chromium then07:22
Knightwisebut i must say : on 2 24 inch displays .. its a dream07:22
popeyhttp://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/lightread/lightread_1.0.14-0extras12.04.1_all.deb07:24
popeytry that?07:24
Knightwiseaha !07:24
popeyhttp://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/f/fogger/fogger_0.2.3-extras12.04.1_all.deb07:24
Knightwisecopy and pasting that :)07:25
Knightwiseat work for the moment :)07:25
* Knightwise working on XP .. on a thin client07:25
Knightwise* depressing *07:25
AlanBellKnightwise: you need the unity integration extension installed and enabled in firefox and chromium07:43
AlanBellfor me there was some oddness in chromium, deleted my ~/.config/chromium and it turned up (probably was a better way of doing that but I wasn't bothered)07:45
AlanBelland in Firefox the extension was disabled, probably due to upgrades or something07:46
AlanBellor maybe I turned it off for being broken earlier07:46
KnightwiseAlanBell: ill take a look at that .07:56
Knightwisebecause , as a slider , those integrations are of course key07:56
SuperMattyo08:01
Knightwisehey SuperMatt08:01
Laneyxnox: xnox nxonxonxonx08:16
JamesTaitGood mornin' all! :-D08:23
christelJamesTait \o08:26
JamesTaitchristel, o/08:26
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
diploJamesTait: Can I swap your kids for mine this morning :)_08:51
JamesTaitdiplo, I strongly suspect that by the time they get home from school, someone will already have swapped them back to the usual little monsters. ;)08:52
diplohah08:54
knightwiseha indeed :)08:54
diploMine are both quite ill on top of the naughtiness, so no sleep for me then they wake up with more get up and go than I do :(08:54
bb15hi all!09:00
Neoti_Desktophello09:00
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
* Laney caves and puts the heating on yet again :(09:13
mfraz74Any ideas whether there's going to be a 64 bit version of acroread for 12.10?09:13
bb15from repository?09:15
mfraz74there hasn't been a 64 bit version since 11.10 and there's nothing at all on partner at the moment09:16
mfraz74https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acroread/+bug/99076109:18
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 990761 in acroread (Ubuntu) "acroread 9.5.1 is not installable on Ubuntu Precise amd64 system" [Undecided,Confirmed]09:18
=== schwuk_away is now known as schwuk
bashrc_question: On a netbook when logging in an selecting the desktop environment the drop down list is longer than the bottom of the screen.  How do I select the environment using keys?09:19
bashrc_I have xfce and lxde installed, so the list is longer than usual09:20
shaunothe health & safety wombles have just discovered I have 42U in my office.  This can't end well :(09:21
mattthahaha09:22
gordtell them its a lamp09:22
matttor a cupboard09:22
matttfor coats09:22
bb15mfraz74, do you need specially the acrobat reader?09:26
JamesTaitdiplo, kids are great like that. If we could bottle whatever it is they have, we'd be rich.09:32
diploheh the man speaks the truth09:33
mfraz74bb15: seems to be work better than the alternatives09:33
brobostigongood morning everyone,09:36
bashrc_http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxMzA09:37
bb15good morning!09:39
brobostigonmorning bb1509:39
knightwisehey brobostigon09:45
brobostigonhey knightwise09:46
BigRedSGood morning!09:55
bashrc_https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/97082609:55
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 970826 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Can not select desktop environment using keyboard arrows" [Low,Triaged]09:55
bashrc_this combination of tab and enter is horrible09:58
bashrc_randomly pressing tab and enter sometimes moves to the next item09:59
BigRedSHm. Wifi support in my laptop appears to have wandered off along with 12.10 being released09:59
BigRedSI always have a much better time on the pre-release releases than on the proper ones...10:00
bashrc_this about as non-intuitive as it gets10:01
bashrc_I can select the top desktop environment with the cursor, then alternately hit tab and enter to move to the next item, but there seems to be no way to select an item10:03
BigRedSThis sounds horrific10:06
BigRedSI'm tempted to install another couple of DEs and log out just to see how bad it is10:06
bashrc_the bottom item is usually used to select, but it's below the bottom of the screen on my netbook10:07
bashrc_to reproduce install xubuntu-desktop and lubuntu-desktop10:07
bashrc_is there any way to remove DEs?10:11
bashrc_selecting other users seems to reset the DE to the default ubuntu10:15
bashrc_is there a config file somewhere for this?10:15
AlanBellbashrc_: I can change desktop environments with the keyboard10:21
bashrc_up and down keys?10:21
AlanBellbashrc_: the trick is that the very bottom item is "OK"10:21
bashrc_yes, but it's below the bottom of the screen10:21
AlanBellup and down keys, space to select, bottom item select to choose it10:21
bashrc_I can't get to the bottom item10:21
bashrc_this is a netbook, with limited vertical screen realestate10:22
AlanBelldoes it really not get there or can you just not see it?10:22
bashrc_I can't move the cursor below the bottom of the screen10:22
AlanBellpress ctrl+s to get the screen reader running (which may or may not read anything)10:22
bashrc_ok10:23
bashrc_up and down cursors don't have any effect10:24
bashrc_screen reader reads, but doesn't help10:24
bashrc_I can get a record scratching effect by repeatedly pressing space with the screen reader :-)10:26
bashrc_the main problem seems to be that although it's possible to select DEs using the obscure tab+enter combination it's not possible to confirm that10:28
davmor2Morning all10:30
AlanBellbashrc_: so it is tab space to get to the DE selection list10:33
AlanBellthen tab and shift-tab to move up and down10:34
bashrc_ok10:34
AlanBellspace to select one, then tab all the way down to OK10:34
AlanBelland space on the OK to confirm the selection10:34
bashrc_tab all the way down?10:34
AlanBellI would need to set up a VM or something to get the list to exceed the screen height though10:34
AlanBellyeah, or shift+tab on the top one I think10:35
bashrc_shift+tab has no effect10:35
bashrc_tab on its own also has no effect when the list is displayed10:35
bashrc_this is on 12.1010:36
AlanBellusing lightdm, the standard greeter?10:36
bashrc_yes10:36
bashrc_ah, it looks as if tab might be having some effect, but there is no visible change10:37
AlanBellit just highlights the border slightly10:38
bashrc_this really is very user unfriendly10:38
AlanBellspace to select10:38
AlanBellshift tab twice from the top item to get to the bottom of the list10:38
bashrc_omg I see it!  It's so subtle that it's hard to see unless you're really looking close up10:38
AlanBellok, so move that subtle effect to the top, then shift-tab twice, then space10:39
bashrc_zomg it worked!10:39
bashrc_what a palava10:39
bashrc_I think the archetypal new user is going to be totally baffled by that, and assume that the OS is broken10:40
AlanBellwell the archetypal new user is supposed to just like Unity10:41
bashrc_the bug was triaged, but it's one of those paper cut type things10:41
bashrc_yes true10:41
AlanBellbut yeah, that is clunky, but it does work now, which it didn't in the past10:42
bashrc_but I was experimenting with different desktops to get the best possible performance on a netbook10:42
AlanBellthere were major focus issues on that which broke it for screenreaders10:42
AlanBellI would suggest filing a new bug against unity-greeter pointing out the issue with the number of desktops being too big for the screen10:43
bashrc_ok will do10:43
AlanBell(and say "on a tablet" rather than "on a netbook")10:44
bashrc_why?10:44
AlanBelljust guessing that might catch some fashionable attention :)10:44
bashrc_heh10:44
bashrc_are there any ubuntu installations on 7" tablets?10:45
AlanBellyes! (but with a 1280x768 screen)10:45
bashrc_the netbook screen is about the same size as my 7" android tablet10:45
bashrc_not sure what the resolution of the netbook is10:46
AlanBell1024x600 normally10:50
bashrc_yes, that's it10:50
bashrc_which is I think similar to my tablet10:51
bashrc_liking the lubuntu netbook preferences.  My only gripe is that icons aren't also selectable with cursor keys10:52
bashrc_it's organised into "work", "learn" and "play" categories10:53
bashrc_plus "internet"10:53
bashrc_lubuntu even seems to have its own software center10:54
BigRedSWith different sources? I'd guess it's just a smaller frontend to apt than the software-center is11:12
bashrc_https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-greeter/+bug/107029211:20
lubotu3Ubuntu bug 1070292 in Unity Greeter "Difficulty selecting DE on a netbook" [Undecided,New]11:20
ali1234are there any tilimg window managers that are controlled by the mouse?12:08
brobostigongnome-shell can tile windows.12:08
DaraelAlmost certainly.  Don't know of them, though. </unhelpful>12:08
ali1234i just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYN2CTb1hM12:10
ali1234and it looks great except for having to do everything with keyboard shortcuts12:11
TitaniumHi12:13
ali1234https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QnYN2CTb1hM#t=1843s12:14
ali1234at this point he points out why alt-tab is bad12:14
ali1234he's exactly right, this is why i never use it - i just click in the window i want with the mouse12:14
ali1234at another point he mentions that people usually just remember what is on each workspace. totally right, and it's the reason why the task bar shouldn't ever take you to another workspace.12:16
DaraelAlt-tab is bad because one can use the mouse?  What?  It's /much/ faster not to need to take one's hands off the keyboard.  There /is/ an advantage to having a previous-window key-combo.12:26
DaraelNext-window and previous-window also have their places, and are missing from most WMs.12:26
ali1234no, it's much faster if you don't have to look at the keyboard to find alt-tab, then look a the monitor to watch for the right window to come up12:28
DaraelOnly if you can't find alt-tab by feel, which I certainly can.12:28
ali1234alt-tab is bad because the order in which is presents the windows constantly changes12:28
ali1234it has nothing to do with the mouse12:29
DaraelAs the /only/ window-changing keyboard shortcut, yes it is.12:29
ali1234it's also bad because it's a linear list, while using the mouse you can select from a list that shows multiple things12:29
ali1234it's like a sushi bar vs a super market12:30
DaraelMice are /slow/, though.  Things like Do, or Everything, that can raise windows by partial title-match, are much faster and don't have the disadvantages of alt+tab.12:32
ali1234no, mice are not slow12:32
ali1234the keyboard is slow, because you have to look at it to see where the keys are12:32
DaraelSpeak for yourself.12:32
ali1234you never have to look at the mouse while operating it12:32
DaraelI touchtype, including bucky-bits.  It's much faster.12:33
ali1234you look at the mouse pointer, which is on the screen all the time12:33
DaraelThe untrained speed on a mouse is higher, but the achievable speed on a keyboard is /far/ higher.12:34
ali1234no12:34
ali1234trained mouse speed is just as fast as trained keyboard speed, plus the mouse is a totally intuitive interface12:34
DaraelTry text entry with a mouse and tell me that again.12:34
ali1234there is absolutely nothing at all intuitive about keyboard shortcuts12:35
bashrc_keyboard shortcuts aren't very intuitive, but there is an intuitive path to learn them in unity12:35
DaraelBesides, mice are /not/ "totally intuitive".  Trust me, I had to lead a computer class while I was in India last year, and getting used to mice took /ages/.12:35
ali1234for text entry a stylus beats both12:35
DaraelReally?  I find that hard to believe.12:36
ali1234the only problem being that most people don't have their monitor set up like a drawing board12:37
DaraelHandwriting is slow, so I assume we're talking about some kind of picking-it-out-with-a-stylus thing.  I find it hard to believe it's possible to reach five characters per second with stylus taps.12:37
ali1234handwriting isn't slow12:37
DaraelIt's not nearly as fast as typing speeds can get.12:38
ali1234maybe it is slow if you never do it12:38
ali1234like using the mouse is slow if you never do it12:38
bashrc_typing is generally the fastest way to enter text12:38
DaraelLike using the keyboard is slow if you never do it?12:38
ali1234yeah12:38
ali1234guess which one most of the population of the world is most familiar wth?12:38
DaraelWe can go in circles saying "you're slow because you don't try it", but highest speeds recorded on keyboards were up to 300WPM, or more than 25 characters per /second/.12:39
DaraelShow me the person that can go that fast handwriting.12:39
bashrc_with a really good quality stylus system and good OCR it might be possible to equal the speed of a keyboard, but I've never seen that happen in practice12:40
DaraelAllow shorthand in stylus input (which seems sensible) and one could get speeds up a good long way, it's true.12:40
ali1234the world record for shorthand writing is 350 WPM12:41
DaraelAs I said.  Shorthand.  It increases speeds.  But then, a stenograph can go faster still.12:42
AlanBellif you want fast, on a multitouch tablet you might want something like plover12:42
AlanBellhttp://plover.stenoknight.com/ which is stenography12:42
ali1234a stenograph isn't a PC keyboard12:43
DaraelNo, but as AlanBell just helpfully illustrated, it can be simulated on a touchscreen, and since we're comparing handwriting-type input, which I assume would need some kind of touch surface...12:43
AlanBellindeed, and it requires learning (as does shorthand)12:43
ali1234as does writing!12:44
DaraelWe've got sidelined by text input.  My point was, given that one has learned the layout of the keys, it is generally going to be faster to hit a keyboard shortcut than it is to lift hands /off/ the keyboard, take them /over/ to the mouse, and click on something on screen.12:44
ali1234and using a mouse12:44
AlanBellI suspect it would be possible to create a more intuitive chording keyboard12:44
ali1234this whole "lifting hands off the keyboard" is rubbish. it's slow when i have to lift my hand off the mouse12:44
DaraelReally depends on your usage pattern, doesn't it?12:45
ali1234no.12:45
ali1234unless your usage pattern is entirely keyboard or entirely mouse12:46
DaraelOn the contrary, the deciding factor is whether it's /mostly/ keyboard or /mostly/ mouse.12:46
DaraelIf it's more mouse by any significant margin, keyboard shortcuts are long cuts, not worth moving the hands for.12:46
ali1234the only real deciding factor is "you are a stenographer"12:46
DaraelIf one's default hand-position is on the keyboard, then using the mouse represents a slowdown in most cases.12:47
ali1234for anyone else keyboard interfaces are unintuitive and annoying12:47
DaraelIntuitive is not necessarily good!  It's /discoverable/, but it's not necessarily /efficient/.12:47
bashrc_You want intuitiveness first, with efficiency later through mastery12:48
ali1234also, the delay in moving to the mouse is insignificant compared to, say, the 3 seconds you have to wait when you want to enter an application group in the unity alt-tab system12:48
Daraelali1234: I've never found that.  On the other hand, I prefer using other WMs.  It's a fallacy to take a (possibly reasonable) complaint about one implementation and apply it to the whole concept.12:49
ali1234that implementation is done that way (grouping) because having a looooong list you cycle through is also incredibly innefficient12:49
ali1234unfortunately it's no better12:49
DaraelHave you tried alt-tab-to-application-group, let go, alt-` to window?  Likely to be faster.12:50
DaraelSuboptimal, but faster than waiting for the group to expand.12:50
AlanBellpress down12:50
ali1234you can also press enter while holding down alt12:50
ali1234or down12:50
ali1234but that needs two hands, so it means taking my hand off the mouse12:51
DaraelI would test skipping to alt+` without releasing alt from the alt+tab, but I'm not in unity right now.12:51
DaraelBecause that would be the fastest of those if it worked.  Just shift one finger up one key.12:51
ali1234yeah12:52
ali1234it's still slower than using the mouse though12:52
AlanBellit expands in time than it takes me to move finger from tab to `12:52
bashrc_personal computing is personal, and different people prefer different styles of interaction.  A good OS should be able to support a range of ways of doing the same tyhing12:52
DaraelWell, yes.12:53
ali1234and another thing12:53
ali1234switching windows requires a mental context switch anyway :)12:53
ali1234if your writing away and you need to switch windows it's going to slow you down either way12:54
ali1234i also have a routine where i need to check through a list of windows one at a time, to see what's happening12:56
ali1234the alt-tab way of showing most recently used windows first is the exact opposite of what i need as each window i need to look at gets further and further down the list as i go12:56
Darael...which is a good argument for next-window and previous-window commands as /well/ as a last-window-I-saw command.12:56
ali1234so it takes longer to find each time12:57
ali1234sure12:57
DaraelDoesn't invalidate the usefulness of windows-by-recency, though.12:57
ali1234i have no idea what they keyboard shortcuts for those are though12:57
DaraelDon't think they exist by default (or if they do they're unbound) but pretty sure there's a compiz plugin for it.12:57
ali1234next and previous isn't that helpful really, as they might not be in any particular order12:58
DaraelThere's also a window-grouping plugin, that I'm /sure/ provides next/previous-window-in-group12:59
ali1234how do you group them though?12:59
ali1234more keyboard shortcuts?13:00
DaraelThink so.13:00
ali1234all this stuff sounds great except for the keyboard shortcuts part13:00
DaraelWell, it's that, make heavy use of mouse-gestures (not intuitive or discoverable), make use of live edges (not intuitive, /too/ discoverable), or add loads of buttons to window borders.13:01
ali1234yes, add the buttons13:01
ali1234there's plenty of room for them13:02
DaraelWell, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  Especially if there were a way to turn them off (because we /would/ get new users complaining about all the buttons on windows they didn't understand).13:03
ali1234a 1:1 window list you can directly click on to go to any window is still the most intuitive and also the fastest general purpose system we have13:03
DaraelMost discoverable, yes.  Most intuitive... probably.  Fastest?  I still doubt it.13:03
ali1234it's the fastest when you consider all use cases, not just a very limited subset that few people actually use13:04
DaraelFor example, e17's Everything can be keyboard-launched and can raise a window with a partial title-match.  Given good typing speed, that's very fast indeed.13:04
DaraelDo and Synapse can probably do it, too.13:04
ali1234yeah except what if i don't know what the window is called?13:04
ali1234what if the window title is <currently playing song>13:04
DaraelIt'll match on the program, too, for example.  Title is the most-commonly-used thing it matches, not the only one.13:05
ali1234all of these clever tricks have a worst case which is extremely poor13:05
ali1234the traditional window list might be medium speed, but it doesn't totally fail under worst case13:05
DaraelAs does the graphical list!  Open loads of windows and it requires scrolling (pontentially for ages) and/or masses of trial and error (depending on implementation)13:06
ali1234so if you open loads of windows and match by title, and 50 windows match? then what?13:06
ali1234it's not worse for the graphical list13:07
DaraelIt's not significantly /better/, either.  What it /is/, as I have been at pains to acknowledge, is more discoverable.13:08
ali1234i never said it was better13:09
ali1234what i said was that the graphical list always has adequate performance, and performs above average in situations which challenge any system13:10
DaraelI don't have anything against it per se.  I have something against it when presented as "it's always adequate and it doesn't die in edge cases so it's the only thing anyone should use".  Less-discoverable things that perform better in most actual use-cases I come across are very good things to have, and I want to keep or improve them, but I don't want them to be all there is.13:13
ali1234i'm not saying everyone should use it13:13
ali1234i'm saying that it should be the default13:13
DaraelNo.  /You/ clearly aren't.13:14
DaraelIt should.13:14
DaraelThe problem I have arises when it becomes the only thing reasonably supported.13:14
DaraelWhich is a thing that I perceive to be happening in several places.  Unity is the exception rather than the rule in that it's increasing capacity for keyboarding over the thing it's meant to replace, and while it's slow and that's bad, I like that.  Still don't use it day-to-day, but that's for other reasons.13:15
dwatkinsI miss fvwm.13:15
ali1234that keyboard support comes at the cost of the window list though13:16
DaraelIt doesn't /have/ to.  That it /does/ is clearly a Bad Thing.13:16
ali1234sure13:16
ali1234i could probably live without the window list in something like i3m13:17
ali1234but only if i could still do everything else with the mouse13:17
davmor2ali1234: it does a windows list it's called the spread :P13:18
ali1234you best be trolling13:18
davmor2ali1234: it lists the windows whats wrong with you ;)13:19
ali1234it's not a list, and it doesn't list all windows13:19
ali1234and in some configurations it's not limited to the current workspace13:20
dwatkinsIf I could spend 99% of the day not touching the mouse, I'd be happy, but I appreciate not everyone is like me.13:20
ali1234i've lost track of what the default setting for that is these days13:20
davmor2ali1234: in all serious now, what kinda of windows list are you on about?13:22
ali1234well, you know what windows are right?13:23
ali1234a list of all the windows on the current workspace, and when you click on a window, it is unminimized and placed above all the others13:23
davmor2ali1234: no I mean I've never seen a windows list is there an example of one somewhere13:23
popeywat13:24
ali1234well you could pretend it's a radically new idea that will revolutionize computing as we know it13:24
ali1234it may be easier for me to sell it to you that way13:24
Daraeldavmor2: Bottom panel in the default Ubuntu gnome2 config, back when we had one.13:25
Daraeldavmor2: Horizontally laid-out, but still a window-list.13:25
ali1234doesn't have to be horizontal13:25
DaraelI said in the default config.  I know it doesn't /have/ to be.13:26
DaraelIt was an example, not intended to define but to illustrate.13:26
ali1234the point is it lists windows on the current workspace, not applications on any workspace + maybe some applications that are not running13:26
davmor2but that isn't actually that practical and depending on the default layout has the exact same issue with regard to switching desktops,  and I was used to those being called switchers rather than lists, but at least I know what you are on about now :)13:28
ali1234the difference between a window and an applications is important, because a window is a clearly defined thing, while an application is not13:28
ali1234as such an application switcher is designed to fail13:29
DaraelThere was a window list applet that did the same thing in a popout list, if that helps, davmor2.13:29
davmor2Darael: ah okay that's making a bit more sense then13:30
ali1234switcher is a generic term, it must be qualified as a window switcher or application switcher (aka dock)13:30
Myrttihiya.13:30
Myrttihows things?13:30
DaraelMyrtti: Debate-y, apparently.13:31
davmor2Myrtti: a bit meh, not on top form today13:31
Myrttiright. I just went to see my dad and as usual he smoked indoors, even when I was there. Almost threw up when leaving and now my hair smells of cigarette smoke. So I'm a bit annoyed already and as usual, my computer doesn't seem to be helping in that13:32
Myrttilatest in the messaging menu indicator saga: Empathy tells me there's an unread message from my sister with whom I don't have an open tab in Empathy13:34
MyrttiI click the indicator, and the message is gone13:34
davmor2Myrtti: you love it you know you do ;)  In emapthy open a message window to your sister or click on the clear button13:35
davmor2Myrtti: for me though I click on the name it says there is a message from and it opens the window to that person13:36
Myrttiyeah, it opened the window13:36
Myrttiit just doesn't have the message in it.13:36
davmor2Myrtti: that could be a glitch in emapthy then reporting it has a message but hasn't13:37
Myrttiand I'm pretty much ready to give up and reinstall 12.04.113:37
Myrttisure it has a message, I just read it in my phone,.13:37
davmor2Myrtti: did you do a fresh install of 12.10 or an upgrade?13:38
Myrttiupgrade13:38
Myrttisilly me thinking upgrade would work.13:38
ali1234how do i do a fresh install without losing all my bought software that hasn't been updated yet?13:38
Myrttiand oh god my hair stinks13:38
davmor2Myrtti: try a fresh install of Quantal before you resort to 12.04.1 unless you need the machine for work13:39
davmor2ali1234: most of it has been updated apart from the stuff that doesn't work in Quantal13:39
Myrttidavmor2: well I do prefer gm-notify over to the non-functioning webapps, I don't particularly need the machine for work as I'm still unemployed, but it would be lovely to have the thing working.13:40
Myrttiand gm-notify in quantal doesn't work either.13:40
davmor2Myrtti: the reason I say try Quantal first is it might solve your gm-notify and webapps issues on a fresh install and then you might be happier and have 12.04.1 as your backup plan13:41
Myrttiwell gm-notify isn't fixed yet13:42
davmor2Myrtti: ah so that isn't just the Quantal upgrade then13:42
Myrttino, it's you folks messing up the messaging menu API13:43
Myrttibug 104025913:43
lubotu3Launchpad bug 1040259 in skype-wrapper "FFE: libmessaging-menu transitions for quantal" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/104025913:43
davmor2Myrtti: I hope you aren't trying to blame me for that I don't touch it, blame gord it normally works for me :D13:44
MyrttiI'm not blaming anyone, I'm past that phase13:46
AlanBelldavmor2: it doesn't work, the API was changed and the documentation is all wrong and things were broken13:46
ali1234is there a reason why skype does not have a tray icon any more?13:46
ali1234mine hasn't had one since 11.1013:46
popeyit does here13:46
MyrttiI'm at the phase called "I've stopped actively caring and I'm about || close to moving to Debian testing anyway"13:46
davmor2ali1234: it does for me in 12.04 let me check 12.1013:46
ali1234i'm using 12.0413:47
ali1234but i'm using gnome-classic13:47
ali1234i can't test in unity as i can't install it13:47
ali1234hang on13:48
ali1234maybe it's cos i don't have a system tray on the panel13:48
Myrttimy hair makes my mood really foul. sorry.13:49
ali1234hmm well i added a notification area and i got some new icons, but not skype13:49
=== who is now known as Guest58914
davmor2Myrtti: go home wash your hair13:59
davmor2ali1234: did you make sure that skype is in the whitelist?13:59
ali1234yes14:00
Laneyyeah it's pretty unfortunate that we released Quantal with that half done14:07
* popey spies an aquarius in Copenhagen14:12
* SuperMatt ponders14:12
SuperMattI do hope Valve don't announce the steam beta at uds, or all the uds people will have a head start signing up14:14
popeyheheh14:14
SuperMatt¬.¬14:14
popeyfun times14:16
SuperMattpersonally, I don't think 1000 users is enough for a beta test, but I guess valve know what they're doing :(14:18
aquariuspopey, o hai14:19
Azelphurwhen is UDS? XD14:19
SuperMattdon't talk to him! he's planning on stealing steam beta signups!14:19
SuperMattstarting soon, isn't it?14:19
Laneynext week14:19
AzelphurMy upgrade to quantal on my laptop went really well xD14:19
AzelphurFirst boot, unity didn't start, dropped to classic, nm-applet segfaults when I try to connect to wifi :D14:20
SuperMattoops14:20
gord1000 users is enough for a beta test that has a good signal to noise ratio14:20
Azelphurindeed, xD14:20
SuperMattgord: fair point14:21
SuperMattI'm just worried I'm not going to be able to get on it14:21
gorddo you need to be? just wait for proper release :P14:21
SuperMatthmm, I've just realised valve have a week left in october, which is when they said they'd release it14:21
gordvalve are well known for sticking to release dates as we all know14:22
SuperMattthough vavle time means that october is anything from 01-10-12 to 31-12-18583414:22
Laneyi hate the word minutiae14:23
gordits a perfectly cromulant word14:23
Methothi too all :)14:36
SuperMattI challenge this channel to a more colourful desktop! http://ubuntuone.com/7SMbmoGwCiVTcszWvtx0en14:47
SuperMattthat's how I use it every day :)14:47
davmor2SuperMatt: you are a sad sad man14:49
SuperMattwhy?14:49
SuperMattit helps me differentiate between servers, so if I'm doing something on test and live, for instance, I don't accidentally do something destructive on live14:50
davmor2SuperMatt: indeed14:52
Myrttioh man, I wish the princesses of the household would come home and have their shower so I can I go and wash my hair with the remaining hot water15:03
SuperMattMyrtti: housemates or family?15:11
MyrttiSuperMatt: been staying at my sisters at my mums old house for a month and after living for a year here they've quite established that the boiler doesn't cope with four people taking a shower every day, when people went to sauna and shower twice a week when the storage heater was installed in the 70's15:13
MyrttiI'm the fourth and the least fussy about stinking for a few hours extra, so I'll just wait for them to come home and I can wash my hair at 11 when the storage heater has had an hour to warm up new batch of hot water.15:14
andycOh cool!  I have always used chromium but just started using firefox again and have discovered that 12.10 installed loads of crazy unity apps for some websites15:21
andycVery useful15:21
Myrttithey should work in chromium too. if you've got needed bits installed. and if they work.15:22
andycI mustn't have had the right stuff installed because I was never asked to install them15:23
SuperMattI've been agonising over which browser to use on a permanent basis15:24
popeyi switched to chromium15:24
SuperMattthing is, I think firefox is best on the desktop, and chrome is best on android15:24
SuperMattso I can't easily sync between them15:24
popeychrome eats the battery of my laptop15:24
gordomnomnom15:25
SuperMattI've found that since installing quantal, my laptop has had *much* better battery life15:25
andycFor some reason the tabs occasionally flicker on chromium on my machine15:26
andycWhich is quite annoying15:26
andycOuch EE only offers 500Mb for £36?15:29
andycGood job I dont have an upgrade for another year, prices might be reasonable by then15:29
AlanBelldon't get why people are angry about EE being expensive15:37
ali1234more annoyed that my phone doesn't work any more cos it is blacklisted by orange and i'm on t-mobile and they merged15:39
ali1234(and became EE)15:39
Azelphurwhy does orange hate you?15:46
ali1234Azelphur: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=367759315:54
ali1234it seems that they blacklist the imei if you buy a pay-g phone and don't ever top it up15:54
ali1234of course this is not a PAY-G phone15:54
ali1234it was clearly not bought from orange because it has "NOT FOR SALE" printed on the back15:55
ali1234however it did have an orange rom on it when i got it15:55
Azelphurannoying, my mum has exactly the same but didn't get blacklisted15:55
Azelphuralthough, she doesn't use orange/t-mob15:55
ali1234it's not that phone model15:55
ali1234and it was only blacklisted on orange15:55
Azelphurah15:56
Azelphurprobably means she's blacklisted from EE too then, nice.15:56
ali1234when t-mobile and orange had the roaming agreement after the merge the phone would crash if it roamed onto orange network but worked fine on t-mobile15:56
ali1234now that they've merged the network it doesn't work at all15:56
Azelphurnice15:57
AzelphurI'd phone them up and complain continually15:58
ali1234i have done15:58
ali1234i can't prove it's my phone15:59
ali1234it's a demo model15:59
ali1234technically it belongs to orange or samsung15:59
ali1234i don't even know who16:00
Azelphurnice16:00
AzelphurI can prove at least, got amazon receipt16:00
diploAnyone recommend a decent windows ftp server for win7 ?16:03
diplo:)16:03
diploWrong channel I know :D16:04
diploOooh didn't know filezilla did ftp server16:04
Azelphurdiplo: haha, was just about to recommend filezilla, I used that on Windows before16:06
SuperMattfilezilla is about the only one I will bother using, myself16:08
SuperMattthough I try to stay away from ftp as much as I can16:08
diplonever use it myself16:08
diploSomeone in the offices I am wants to dump cisco cdr records to one16:08
diploand the ftpd he is using sucks16:09
SuperMattfilezilla it is16:09
SuperMattor just install ubuntu16:09
diplohmm can't connect atm16:11
andycAlanBell, I'm not angry about EE being expensive, I'm just glad I don't have an upgrade for a year else otherwise may have been tempted to spend a lot17:05
davmor2andyc: why do you think it will be cheaper in a year?  It took about 5 for the price of 3g to lower ;)17:07
andycdavmor2, True - plus EE will be on their own with 4G for a while so it's not likely to drop any time soon17:29
andycsigh17:30
=== schwuk is now known as schwuk_away
kvarleyI'm looking for a sub-500 quid laptop/notebook/netbook/ultrabook that will run Ubuntu with the Unity interface and preferably it will be quiet. Any suggestions?17:41
MartijnVdSkvarley: sub-£500 ultrabook? Good luck with that ;)17:42
zleapoh ultra book17:42
zleapdunno sorry17:42
kvarleyMartijnVdS: Hehe true, I'd stretch for an ultrabook.17:42
* MartijnVdS ordered one of the new Chromebooks17:43
MartijnVdSbut I'm not sure if I want to run Ubuntu on it or not17:43
kvarleyMartijnVdS: I would do I don't want to buy something when I'm going to immediately void the warranty by installing Ubuntu on it17:44
directhexultrabooks are something quite specific. and i don't see them happening at <£80018:18
directhexe.g. SSDs cost money18:19
directhexLenovo IdeaPad U310 is technically an entry level ultrabook for £60018:20
locodir-userhi18:53
locodir-useri have a small query please18:53
locodir-userI am working on ubuntu 12.0418:54
locodir-userbut i think ubuntu 12.1 is realeased and i tried to upgrade using software upgrader. but i am not successful yet18:54
locodir-userany help please18:55
locodir-userhello18:55
locodir-useranyone out there?pls18:55
locodir-userhello18:56
airurandohi locodir-user18:56
airurandoyou may not get a reply straight away18:57
locodir-userok18:57
locodir-usersorry18:57
airurandoUnfortunately I'm not good on upgrades18:57
locodir-userok not an issue. I am just curious to know18:58
airurandoI failed with a 12.04 to 12.10 upgrade myself18:58
locodir-useroh, did you18:58
locodir-userWhy does it difficult? i do know nothing about ubuntu programming18:59
airurandoyeah I had a graphics card issue18:59
locodir-userok18:59
airurandoIt is not supposed to be difficult18:59
locodir-userok18:59
locodir-useri mean i clicked update centre and installed everything19:00
locodir-userbut no difference19:00
airurandofor the less tech savvy people like myself I'd recommend sticking with the long term support releases like 12.0419:00
mottersI would also recommend sticking with 12.0419:00
motters12.10 is still quite unstable.  I've seen many crashes19:01
airurandolocodir-user: upgrade differs from update19:01
locodir-userok19:02
locodir-useroh19:02
locodir-userok19:02
locodir-useri didnt know that19:02
locodir-userwill it make my computer slow?19:02
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
airurandodepends on you computer.  If you upgrade to 12.10 you may indeed encounter difficulties19:03
mottersI don't think 12.10 is much slower than 12.04.  A lot depends upon the graphics drivers.19:03
airurandothen again you may not19:03
locodir-userok19:04
airurandoalways back up your data before attempting an upgrade19:04
locodir-userthat means i have to format my hard drive? do i?19:04
airurandono19:04
locodir-userok19:05
locodir-userwhere can i download it from19:05
airurandoyou should look at: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/upgrade19:06
locodir-userthanks a lot19:06
locodir-userlet me try that19:06
locodir-userbye19:06
airurandobe careful.19:07
airurandobye19:07
locodir-userit doesnt show ubuntu 12.1 is available19:12
dogmatic69maybe because there is no such thing as 12.119:12
mottersI think you have to change the setting in software sources19:12
locodir-userperfect answer19:12
locodir-userhow?19:12
mottersopen the software centre and on the menu there is software sources19:13
mottersunder updates select notify of any new version19:14
AlanBellyes, by default it will be set to only offer lts releases19:14
locodir-usercool19:15
locodir-usergot it19:15
locodir-userlets see19:16
locodir-useri will be back19:16
locodir-userdownloading19:16
ali1234why do we have gcc-4.7 packaged but not g++-4.7?19:57
ali1234and how is that even possible?19:58
airurandocoderdojo spawned in Ireland I beliece20:33
airurandowrong channel20:33
airurandosorry20:34
AlanBell:)20:34
Myrttiali1234: out of interest, are you using in your pidgin IRC More plugin?20:51
ali1234i don't think so20:51
Myrttigood20:52
MyrttiI found the bug and it's not actually specific to Windows as I thought it would20:52
AlanBellbigcalm: done anything interesting with your camera yet?20:52
Myrttihttps://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/1463520:52
bigcalmAlanBell: it's sat on my windowsill looking pretty. Haven't plugged it in yet. I want time to do things20:52
bigcalmAlanBell: how's your camera standing up to the weather?20:53
AlanBellhttp://ubingo.libertus.co.uk/cam/pad fine, but I might have to sort out the cobwebs20:53
bigcalmHeh20:53
bigcalmMilk bottle watch20:54
AlanBellso, I have a copy of internet explorer that has been persuaded to run the activex control for the camera that can do audio as well as video21:05
AlanBellusing wireshark or tcpdump or something else, how do I find out what it is really doing?21:06
AlanBellI want to find the "give me audio" address and the "play this audio" address, they will be weblike calls to stuff running on port 909021:06
AlanBellbut I get masses and masses of data that is all just boring video stuff, not sure how to filter what I want21:07
mgdmUse netstat to see what ports are open between the computer and the camera?21:17
mgdmit's entirely possible that the video and the audio are part of the same stream, though21:17
AlanBellI think it is all on one port, the video is just mjpeg over http21:18
AlanBellI managed to get audio working and video turned off21:18
AlanBelljust can't get any sense out of the packet data21:18
daubersAlanBell: tar it and put it on the web somewhere for someone o pick apart?21:23
AlanBellyeah, might do, I am just trying some more basic stuff to get the hang of wireshark21:24
daubersAlanBell: You can follow the TCP stream. I normally find that more useful when I'm inside wireshark21:26
AlanBellyeah, that makes sense for the web pages it gets21:26
AlanBellhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/packets21:39
AlanBellnothing in there that I can decypher21:39
AlanBellthat is a stream to the correct IP address for the camera, nothing happened for a bit, I turned on audio then stopped the capture21:40
directhexAlanBell: oh 'ello. you're trying to get usable streams from an ip cctv system?21:40
AlanBellit starts with binary21:40
zleapAlanBell, when are the ubuntu cd's released ?21:40
AlanBelldirecthex: yeah, the audio bit of it21:40
AlanBellvideo is a perfectly good stream that renders fine in an <img> tag21:40
directhexAlanBell: okay. does the cctv box itself support exporting sections of video to usb or cd for archival?21:41
AlanBellzleap: week or two21:41
directhexi had luck reverse-engineering the data format of a cctv system from the saved streams21:41
zleapok21:41
AlanBelldirecthex: there is an activex control that can do two way audio21:41
AlanBellthat can save stuff, it can do some saving on board the unit too21:42
AlanBelland ftp stuff to you21:42
directhexAlanBell: at the very least you can isolate the codec it's using from a saved stream21:42
AlanBellah ok21:43
* AlanBell gets an AVI with the audio21:43
AlanBellooh it does do asf with the audio playback21:44
AlanBellvlc:http://ubingo.libertus.co.uk:9090/videostream.asf?user=guest&pwd=guest21:44
AlanBellso, how do I get the codec info out of this avi file?21:46
mgdmffmpeg? mplayer? mediainfo.sf.net?21:46
directhexffmpeg -i?21:46
AlanBellStream #0.0: Audio: pcm_s16le, 8000 Hz, 1 channels, s16, 128 kb/s21:47
directhex8khz wav? sounds pretty likely21:47
AlanBellyeah21:47
=== RaycisCharles is now known as OmNomDePlume
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
n1md4Any empathy users here?22:42
n1md4...the question is, I used empathy at work and it logs in, but recently on my laptop it does not.  I am ablo to login using pidgin on the laptop though.22:43
n1md4Somethings not right, I'd like it to be more than empathy being rubbish ... but I'm not holding my breath!22:43
n1md4Any comments ....22:43

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!