[06:47] <popey> morning
[06:51] <Knightwise> morning everyone
[07:04] <Knightwise> hey theopensourcerer
[07:16] <diplo> Morning all
[07:16] <Knightwise> hey diplo
[07:16] <Knightwise> how are you today
[07:20] <diplo> not bad thanks, yourself ?
[07:20] <diplo> Sorry starting everything up on the other machine
[07:20] <Knightwise> no worriez
[07:20] <Knightwise> installed 12.10 yesterday
[07:20] <Knightwise> thinking of rolling back to 12.04 for a couple of months
[07:20] <christel> morning
[07:20] <Knightwise> hey  christel
[07:20] <popey> Knightwise, why's that?
[07:21] <diplo> I think 12.10 is a lot better, defo preffered a clean install though
[07:21] <Knightwise> popey: the 'web integration' doesnt appear to "kick in" when i visit gmail.com and stuff
[07:22] <popey> what browser?
[07:22] <Knightwise> + some of the apps like lightread and fogger arent there yet
[07:22] <Knightwise> popey: tried both firefox and chrome
[07:22] <popey> chrome wont work
[07:22] <popey> firefox and chromium only
[07:22] <Knightwise> ah ok
[07:22] <Knightwise> have to try chromium then
[07:22] <Knightwise> but i must say : on 2 24 inch displays .. its a dream
[07:24] <popey> http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/lightread/lightread_1.0.14-0extras12.04.1_all.deb
[07:24] <popey> try that?
[07:24] <Knightwise> aha !
[07:24] <popey> http://extras.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/f/fogger/fogger_0.2.3-extras12.04.1_all.deb
[07:25] <Knightwise> copy and pasting that :)
[07:25] <Knightwise> at work for the moment :)
[07:25]  * Knightwise working on XP .. on a thin client
[07:25] <Knightwise> * depressing *
[07:43] <AlanBell> Knightwise: you need the unity integration extension installed and enabled in firefox and chromium
[07:45] <AlanBell> for me there was some oddness in chromium, deleted my ~/.config/chromium and it turned up (probably was a better way of doing that but I wasn't bothered)
[07:46] <AlanBell> and in Firefox the extension was disabled, probably due to upgrades or something
[07:46] <AlanBell> or maybe I turned it off for being broken earlier
[07:56] <Knightwise> AlanBell: ill take a look at that .
[07:56] <Knightwise> because , as a slider , those integrations are of course key
[08:01] <SuperMatt> yo
[08:01] <Knightwise> hey SuperMatt
[08:16] <Laney> xnox: xnox nxonxonxonx
[08:23] <JamesTait> Good mornin' all! :-D
[08:26] <christel> JamesTait \o
[08:26] <JamesTait> christel, o/
[08:51] <diplo> JamesTait: Can I swap your kids for mine this morning :)_
[08:52] <JamesTait> diplo, I strongly suspect that by the time they get home from school, someone will already have swapped them back to the usual little monsters. ;)
[08:54] <diplo> hah
[08:54] <knightwise> ha indeed :)
[08:54] <diplo> Mine are both quite ill on top of the naughtiness, so no sleep for me then they wake up with more get up and go than I do :(
[09:00] <bb15> hi all!
[09:00] <Neoti_Desktop> hello
[09:13]  * Laney caves and puts the heating on yet again :(
[09:13] <mfraz74> Any ideas whether there's going to be a 64 bit version of acroread for 12.10?
[09:15] <bb15> from repository?
[09:16] <mfraz74> there hasn't been a 64 bit version since 11.10 and there's nothing at all on partner at the moment
[09:18] <mfraz74> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acroread/+bug/990761
[09:19] <bashrc_> question: On a netbook when logging in an selecting the desktop environment the drop down list is longer than the bottom of the screen.  How do I select the environment using keys?
[09:20] <bashrc_> I have xfce and lxde installed, so the list is longer than usual
[09:21] <shauno> the health & safety wombles have just discovered I have 42U in my office.  This can't end well :(
[09:22] <mattt> hahaha
[09:22] <gord> tell them its a lamp
[09:22] <mattt> or a cupboard
[09:22] <mattt> for coats
[09:26] <bb15> mfraz74, do you need specially the acrobat reader?
[09:32] <JamesTait> diplo, kids are great like that. If we could bottle whatever it is they have, we'd be rich.
[09:33] <diplo> heh the man speaks the truth
[09:33] <mfraz74> bb15: seems to be work better than the alternatives
[09:36] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:37] <bashrc_> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTIxMzA
[09:39] <bb15> good morning!
[09:39] <brobostigon> morning bb15
[09:45] <knightwise> hey brobostigon
[09:46] <brobostigon> hey knightwise
[09:55] <BigRedS> Good morning!
[09:55] <bashrc_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/970826
[09:58] <bashrc_> this combination of tab and enter is horrible
[09:59] <bashrc_> randomly pressing tab and enter sometimes moves to the next item
[09:59] <BigRedS> Hm. Wifi support in my laptop appears to have wandered off along with 12.10 being released
[10:00] <BigRedS> I always have a much better time on the pre-release releases than on the proper ones...
[10:01] <bashrc_> this about as non-intuitive as it gets
[10:03] <bashrc_> I can select the top desktop environment with the cursor, then alternately hit tab and enter to move to the next item, but there seems to be no way to select an item
[10:06] <BigRedS> This sounds horrific
[10:06] <BigRedS> I'm tempted to install another couple of DEs and log out just to see how bad it is
[10:07] <bashrc_> the bottom item is usually used to select, but it's below the bottom of the screen on my netbook
[10:07] <bashrc_> to reproduce install xubuntu-desktop and lubuntu-desktop
[10:11] <bashrc_> is there any way to remove DEs?
[10:15] <bashrc_> selecting other users seems to reset the DE to the default ubuntu
[10:15] <bashrc_> is there a config file somewhere for this?
[10:21] <AlanBell> bashrc_: I can change desktop environments with the keyboard
[10:21] <bashrc_> up and down keys?
[10:21] <AlanBell> bashrc_: the trick is that the very bottom item is "OK"
[10:21] <bashrc_> yes, but it's below the bottom of the screen
[10:21] <AlanBell> up and down keys, space to select, bottom item select to choose it
[10:21] <bashrc_> I can't get to the bottom item
[10:22] <bashrc_> this is a netbook, with limited vertical screen realestate
[10:22] <AlanBell> does it really not get there or can you just not see it?
[10:22] <bashrc_> I can't move the cursor below the bottom of the screen
[10:22] <AlanBell> press ctrl+s to get the screen reader running (which may or may not read anything)
[10:23] <bashrc_> ok
[10:24] <bashrc_> up and down cursors don't have any effect
[10:24] <bashrc_> screen reader reads, but doesn't help
[10:26] <bashrc_> I can get a record scratching effect by repeatedly pressing space with the screen reader :-)
[10:28] <bashrc_> the main problem seems to be that although it's possible to select DEs using the obscure tab+enter combination it's not possible to confirm that
[10:30] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:33] <AlanBell> bashrc_: so it is tab space to get to the DE selection list
[10:34] <AlanBell> then tab and shift-tab to move up and down
[10:34] <bashrc_> ok
[10:34] <AlanBell> space to select one, then tab all the way down to OK
[10:34] <AlanBell> and space on the OK to confirm the selection
[10:34] <bashrc_> tab all the way down?
[10:34] <AlanBell> I would need to set up a VM or something to get the list to exceed the screen height though
[10:35] <AlanBell> yeah, or shift+tab on the top one I think
[10:35] <bashrc_> shift+tab has no effect
[10:35] <bashrc_> tab on its own also has no effect when the list is displayed
[10:36] <bashrc_> this is on 12.10
[10:36] <AlanBell> using lightdm, the standard greeter?
[10:36] <bashrc_> yes
[10:37] <bashrc_> ah, it looks as if tab might be having some effect, but there is no visible change
[10:38] <AlanBell> it just highlights the border slightly
[10:38] <bashrc_> this really is very user unfriendly
[10:38] <AlanBell> space to select
[10:38] <AlanBell> shift tab twice from the top item to get to the bottom of the list
[10:38] <bashrc_> omg I see it!  It's so subtle that it's hard to see unless you're really looking close up
[10:39] <AlanBell> ok, so move that subtle effect to the top, then shift-tab twice, then space
[10:39] <bashrc_> zomg it worked!
[10:39] <bashrc_> what a palava
[10:40] <bashrc_> I think the archetypal new user is going to be totally baffled by that, and assume that the OS is broken
[10:41] <AlanBell> well the archetypal new user is supposed to just like Unity
[10:41] <bashrc_> the bug was triaged, but it's one of those paper cut type things
[10:41] <bashrc_> yes true
[10:42] <AlanBell> but yeah, that is clunky, but it does work now, which it didn't in the past
[10:42] <bashrc_> but I was experimenting with different desktops to get the best possible performance on a netbook
[10:42] <AlanBell> there were major focus issues on that which broke it for screenreaders
[10:43] <AlanBell> I would suggest filing a new bug against unity-greeter pointing out the issue with the number of desktops being too big for the screen
[10:43] <bashrc_> ok will do
[10:44] <AlanBell> (and say "on a tablet" rather than "on a netbook")
[10:44] <bashrc_> why?
[10:44] <AlanBell> just guessing that might catch some fashionable attention :)
[10:44] <bashrc_> heh
[10:45] <bashrc_> are there any ubuntu installations on 7" tablets?
[10:45] <AlanBell> yes! (but with a 1280x768 screen)
[10:45] <bashrc_> the netbook screen is about the same size as my 7" android tablet
[10:46] <bashrc_> not sure what the resolution of the netbook is
[10:50] <AlanBell> 1024x600 normally
[10:50] <bashrc_> yes, that's it
[10:51] <bashrc_> which is I think similar to my tablet
[10:52] <bashrc_> liking the lubuntu netbook preferences.  My only gripe is that icons aren't also selectable with cursor keys
[10:53] <bashrc_> it's organised into "work", "learn" and "play" categories
[10:53] <bashrc_> plus "internet"
[10:54] <bashrc_> lubuntu even seems to have its own software center
[11:12] <BigRedS> With different sources? I'd guess it's just a smaller frontend to apt than the software-center is
[11:20] <bashrc_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-greeter/+bug/1070292
[12:08] <ali1234> are there any tilimg window managers that are controlled by the mouse?
[12:08] <brobostigon> gnome-shell can tile windows.
[12:08] <Darael> Almost certainly.  Don't know of them, though. </unhelpful>
[12:10] <ali1234> i just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnYN2CTb1hM
[12:11] <ali1234> and it looks great except for having to do everything with keyboard shortcuts
[12:13] <Titanium> Hi
[12:14] <ali1234> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QnYN2CTb1hM#t=1843s
[12:14] <ali1234> at this point he points out why alt-tab is bad
[12:14] <ali1234> he's exactly right, this is why i never use it - i just click in the window i want with the mouse
[12:16] <ali1234> at another point he mentions that people usually just remember what is on each workspace. totally right, and it's the reason why the task bar shouldn't ever take you to another workspace.
[12:26] <Darael> Alt-tab is bad because one can use the mouse?  What?  It's /much/ faster not to need to take one's hands off the keyboard.  There /is/ an advantage to having a previous-window key-combo.
[12:26] <Darael> Next-window and previous-window also have their places, and are missing from most WMs.
[12:28] <ali1234> no, it's much faster if you don't have to look at the keyboard to find alt-tab, then look a the monitor to watch for the right window to come up
[12:28] <Darael> Only if you can't find alt-tab by feel, which I certainly can.
[12:28] <ali1234> alt-tab is bad because the order in which is presents the windows constantly changes
[12:29] <ali1234> it has nothing to do with the mouse
[12:29] <Darael> As the /only/ window-changing keyboard shortcut, yes it is.
[12:29] <ali1234> it's also bad because it's a linear list, while using the mouse you can select from a list that shows multiple things
[12:30] <ali1234> it's like a sushi bar vs a super market
[12:32] <Darael> Mice are /slow/, though.  Things like Do, or Everything, that can raise windows by partial title-match, are much faster and don't have the disadvantages of alt+tab.
[12:32] <ali1234> no, mice are not slow
[12:32] <ali1234> the keyboard is slow, because you have to look at it to see where the keys are
[12:32] <Darael> Speak for yourself.
[12:32] <ali1234> you never have to look at the mouse while operating it
[12:33] <Darael> I touchtype, including bucky-bits.  It's much faster.
[12:33] <ali1234> you look at the mouse pointer, which is on the screen all the time
[12:34] <Darael> The untrained speed on a mouse is higher, but the achievable speed on a keyboard is /far/ higher.
[12:34] <ali1234> no
[12:34] <ali1234> trained mouse speed is just as fast as trained keyboard speed, plus the mouse is a totally intuitive interface
[12:34] <Darael> Try text entry with a mouse and tell me that again.
[12:35] <ali1234> there is absolutely nothing at all intuitive about keyboard shortcuts
[12:35] <bashrc_> keyboard shortcuts aren't very intuitive, but there is an intuitive path to learn them in unity
[12:35] <Darael> Besides, mice are /not/ "totally intuitive".  Trust me, I had to lead a computer class while I was in India last year, and getting used to mice took /ages/.
[12:35] <ali1234> for text entry a stylus beats both
[12:36] <Darael> Really?  I find that hard to believe.
[12:37] <ali1234> the only problem being that most people don't have their monitor set up like a drawing board
[12:37] <Darael> Handwriting is slow, so I assume we're talking about some kind of picking-it-out-with-a-stylus thing.  I find it hard to believe it's possible to reach five characters per second with stylus taps.
[12:37] <ali1234> handwriting isn't slow
[12:38] <Darael> It's not nearly as fast as typing speeds can get.
[12:38] <ali1234> maybe it is slow if you never do it
[12:38] <ali1234> like using the mouse is slow if you never do it
[12:38] <bashrc_> typing is generally the fastest way to enter text
[12:38] <Darael> Like using the keyboard is slow if you never do it?
[12:38] <ali1234> yeah
[12:38] <ali1234> guess which one most of the population of the world is most familiar wth?
[12:39] <Darael> We can go in circles saying "you're slow because you don't try it", but highest speeds recorded on keyboards were up to 300WPM, or more than 25 characters per /second/.
[12:39] <Darael> Show me the person that can go that fast handwriting.
[12:40] <bashrc_> with a really good quality stylus system and good OCR it might be possible to equal the speed of a keyboard, but I've never seen that happen in practice
[12:40] <Darael> Allow shorthand in stylus input (which seems sensible) and one could get speeds up a good long way, it's true.
[12:41] <ali1234> the world record for shorthand writing is 350 WPM
[12:42] <Darael> As I said.  Shorthand.  It increases speeds.  But then, a stenograph can go faster still.
[12:42] <AlanBell> if you want fast, on a multitouch tablet you might want something like plover
[12:42] <AlanBell> http://plover.stenoknight.com/ which is stenography
[12:43] <ali1234> a stenograph isn't a PC keyboard
[12:43] <Darael> No, but as AlanBell just helpfully illustrated, it can be simulated on a touchscreen, and since we're comparing handwriting-type input, which I assume would need some kind of touch surface...
[12:43] <AlanBell> indeed, and it requires learning (as does shorthand)
[12:44] <ali1234> as does writing!
[12:44] <Darael> We've got sidelined by text input.  My point was, given that one has learned the layout of the keys, it is generally going to be faster to hit a keyboard shortcut than it is to lift hands /off/ the keyboard, take them /over/ to the mouse, and click on something on screen.
[12:44] <ali1234> and using a mouse
[12:44] <AlanBell> I suspect it would be possible to create a more intuitive chording keyboard
[12:44] <ali1234> this whole "lifting hands off the keyboard" is rubbish. it's slow when i have to lift my hand off the mouse
[12:45] <Darael> Really depends on your usage pattern, doesn't it?
[12:45] <ali1234> no.
[12:46] <ali1234> unless your usage pattern is entirely keyboard or entirely mouse
[12:46] <Darael> On the contrary, the deciding factor is whether it's /mostly/ keyboard or /mostly/ mouse.
[12:46] <Darael> If it's more mouse by any significant margin, keyboard shortcuts are long cuts, not worth moving the hands for.
[12:46] <ali1234> the only real deciding factor is "you are a stenographer"
[12:47] <Darael> If one's default hand-position is on the keyboard, then using the mouse represents a slowdown in most cases.
[12:47] <ali1234> for anyone else keyboard interfaces are unintuitive and annoying
[12:47] <Darael> Intuitive is not necessarily good!  It's /discoverable/, but it's not necessarily /efficient/.
[12:48] <bashrc_> You want intuitiveness first, with efficiency later through mastery
[12:48] <ali1234> also, the delay in moving to the mouse is insignificant compared to, say, the 3 seconds you have to wait when you want to enter an application group in the unity alt-tab system
[12:49] <Darael> ali1234: I've never found that.  On the other hand, I prefer using other WMs.  It's a fallacy to take a (possibly reasonable) complaint about one implementation and apply it to the whole concept.
[12:49] <ali1234> that implementation is done that way (grouping) because having a looooong list you cycle through is also incredibly innefficient
[12:49] <ali1234> unfortunately it's no better
[12:50] <Darael> Have you tried alt-tab-to-application-group, let go, alt-` to window?  Likely to be faster.
[12:50] <Darael> Suboptimal, but faster than waiting for the group to expand.
[12:50] <AlanBell> press down
[12:50] <ali1234> you can also press enter while holding down alt
[12:50] <ali1234> or down
[12:51] <ali1234> but that needs two hands, so it means taking my hand off the mouse
[12:51] <Darael> I would test skipping to alt+` without releasing alt from the alt+tab, but I'm not in unity right now.
[12:51] <Darael> Because that would be the fastest of those if it worked.  Just shift one finger up one key.
[12:52] <ali1234> yeah
[12:52] <ali1234> it's still slower than using the mouse though
[12:52] <AlanBell> it expands in time than it takes me to move finger from tab to `
[12:52] <bashrc_> personal computing is personal, and different people prefer different styles of interaction.  A good OS should be able to support a range of ways of doing the same tyhing
[12:53] <Darael> Well, yes.
[12:53] <ali1234> and another thing
[12:53] <ali1234> switching windows requires a mental context switch anyway :)
[12:54] <ali1234> if your writing away and you need to switch windows it's going to slow you down either way
[12:56] <ali1234> i also have a routine where i need to check through a list of windows one at a time, to see what's happening
[12:56] <ali1234> the alt-tab way of showing most recently used windows first is the exact opposite of what i need as each window i need to look at gets further and further down the list as i go
[12:56] <Darael> ...which is a good argument for next-window and previous-window commands as /well/ as a last-window-I-saw command.
[12:57] <ali1234> so it takes longer to find each time
[12:57] <ali1234> sure
[12:57] <Darael> Doesn't invalidate the usefulness of windows-by-recency, though.
[12:57] <ali1234> i have no idea what they keyboard shortcuts for those are though
[12:57] <Darael> Don't think they exist by default (or if they do they're unbound) but pretty sure there's a compiz plugin for it.
[12:58] <ali1234> next and previous isn't that helpful really, as they might not be in any particular order
[12:59] <Darael> There's also a window-grouping plugin, that I'm /sure/ provides next/previous-window-in-group
[12:59] <ali1234> how do you group them though?
[13:00] <ali1234> more keyboard shortcuts?
[13:00] <Darael> Think so.
[13:00] <ali1234> all this stuff sounds great except for the keyboard shortcuts part
[13:01] <Darael> Well, it's that, make heavy use of mouse-gestures (not intuitive or discoverable), make use of live edges (not intuitive, /too/ discoverable), or add loads of buttons to window borders.
[13:01] <ali1234> yes, add the buttons
[13:02] <ali1234> there's plenty of room for them
[13:03] <Darael> Well, I wouldn't have a problem with that.  Especially if there were a way to turn them off (because we /would/ get new users complaining about all the buttons on windows they didn't understand).
[13:03] <ali1234> a 1:1 window list you can directly click on to go to any window is still the most intuitive and also the fastest general purpose system we have
[13:03] <Darael> Most discoverable, yes.  Most intuitive... probably.  Fastest?  I still doubt it.
[13:04] <ali1234> it's the fastest when you consider all use cases, not just a very limited subset that few people actually use
[13:04] <Darael> For example, e17's Everything can be keyboard-launched and can raise a window with a partial title-match.  Given good typing speed, that's very fast indeed.
[13:04] <Darael> Do and Synapse can probably do it, too.
[13:04] <ali1234> yeah except what if i don't know what the window is called?
[13:04] <ali1234> what if the window title is <currently playing song>
[13:05] <Darael> It'll match on the program, too, for example.  Title is the most-commonly-used thing it matches, not the only one.
[13:05] <ali1234> all of these clever tricks have a worst case which is extremely poor
[13:05] <ali1234> the traditional window list might be medium speed, but it doesn't totally fail under worst case
[13:06] <Darael> As does the graphical list!  Open loads of windows and it requires scrolling (pontentially for ages) and/or masses of trial and error (depending on implementation)
[13:06] <ali1234> so if you open loads of windows and match by title, and 50 windows match? then what?
[13:07] <ali1234> it's not worse for the graphical list
[13:08] <Darael> It's not significantly /better/, either.  What it /is/, as I have been at pains to acknowledge, is more discoverable.
[13:09] <ali1234> i never said it was better
[13:10] <ali1234> what i said was that the graphical list always has adequate performance, and performs above average in situations which challenge any system
[13:13] <Darael> I don't have anything against it per se.  I have something against it when presented as "it's always adequate and it doesn't die in edge cases so it's the only thing anyone should use".  Less-discoverable things that perform better in most actual use-cases I come across are very good things to have, and I want to keep or improve them, but I don't want them to be all there is.
[13:13] <ali1234> i'm not saying everyone should use it
[13:13] <ali1234> i'm saying that it should be the default
[13:14] <Darael> No.  /You/ clearly aren't.
[13:14] <Darael> It should.
[13:14] <Darael> The problem I have arises when it becomes the only thing reasonably supported.
[13:15] <Darael> Which is a thing that I perceive to be happening in several places.  Unity is the exception rather than the rule in that it's increasing capacity for keyboarding over the thing it's meant to replace, and while it's slow and that's bad, I like that.  Still don't use it day-to-day, but that's for other reasons.
[13:15] <dwatkins> I miss fvwm.
[13:16] <ali1234> that keyboard support comes at the cost of the window list though
[13:16] <Darael> It doesn't /have/ to.  That it /does/ is clearly a Bad Thing.
[13:16] <ali1234> sure
[13:17] <ali1234> i could probably live without the window list in something like i3m
[13:17] <ali1234> but only if i could still do everything else with the mouse
[13:18] <davmor2> ali1234: it does a windows list it's called the spread :P
[13:18] <ali1234> you best be trolling
[13:19] <davmor2> ali1234: it lists the windows whats wrong with you ;)
[13:19] <ali1234> it's not a list, and it doesn't list all windows
[13:20] <ali1234> and in some configurations it's not limited to the current workspace
[13:20] <dwatkins> If I could spend 99% of the day not touching the mouse, I'd be happy, but I appreciate not everyone is like me.
[13:20] <ali1234> i've lost track of what the default setting for that is these days
[13:22] <davmor2> ali1234: in all serious now, what kinda of windows list are you on about?
[13:23] <ali1234> well, you know what windows are right?
[13:23] <ali1234> a list of all the windows on the current workspace, and when you click on a window, it is unminimized and placed above all the others
[13:23] <davmor2> ali1234: no I mean I've never seen a windows list is there an example of one somewhere
[13:24] <popey> wat
[13:24] <ali1234> well you could pretend it's a radically new idea that will revolutionize computing as we know it
[13:24] <ali1234> it may be easier for me to sell it to you that way
[13:25] <Darael> davmor2: Bottom panel in the default Ubuntu gnome2 config, back when we had one.
[13:25] <Darael> davmor2: Horizontally laid-out, but still a window-list.
[13:25] <ali1234> doesn't have to be horizontal
[13:26] <Darael> I said in the default config.  I know it doesn't /have/ to be.
[13:26] <Darael> It was an example, not intended to define but to illustrate.
[13:26] <ali1234> the point is it lists windows on the current workspace, not applications on any workspace + maybe some applications that are not running
[13:28] <davmor2> but that isn't actually that practical and depending on the default layout has the exact same issue with regard to switching desktops,  and I was used to those being called switchers rather than lists, but at least I know what you are on about now :)
[13:28] <ali1234> the difference between a window and an applications is important, because a window is a clearly defined thing, while an application is not
[13:29] <ali1234> as such an application switcher is designed to fail
[13:29] <Darael> There was a window list applet that did the same thing in a popout list, if that helps, davmor2.
[13:30] <davmor2> Darael: ah okay that's making a bit more sense then
[13:30] <ali1234> switcher is a generic term, it must be qualified as a window switcher or application switcher (aka dock)
[13:30] <Myrtti> hiya.
[13:30] <Myrtti> hows things?
[13:31] <Darael> Myrtti: Debate-y, apparently.
[13:31] <davmor2> Myrtti: a bit meh, not on top form today
[13:32] <Myrtti> right. I just went to see my dad and as usual he smoked indoors, even when I was there. Almost threw up when leaving and now my hair smells of cigarette smoke. So I'm a bit annoyed already and as usual, my computer doesn't seem to be helping in that
[13:34] <Myrtti> latest in the messaging menu indicator saga: Empathy tells me there's an unread message from my sister with whom I don't have an open tab in Empathy
[13:34] <Myrtti> I click the indicator, and the message is gone
[13:35] <davmor2> Myrtti: you love it you know you do ;)  In emapthy open a message window to your sister or click on the clear button
[13:36] <davmor2> Myrtti: for me though I click on the name it says there is a message from and it opens the window to that person
[13:36] <Myrtti> yeah, it opened the window
[13:36] <Myrtti> it just doesn't have the message in it.
[13:37] <davmor2> Myrtti: that could be a glitch in emapthy then reporting it has a message but hasn't
[13:37] <Myrtti> and I'm pretty much ready to give up and reinstall 12.04.1
[13:37] <Myrtti> sure it has a message, I just read it in my phone,.
[13:38] <davmor2> Myrtti: did you do a fresh install of 12.10 or an upgrade?
[13:38] <Myrtti> upgrade
[13:38] <Myrtti> silly me thinking upgrade would work.
[13:38] <ali1234> how do i do a fresh install without losing all my bought software that hasn't been updated yet?
[13:38] <Myrtti> and oh god my hair stinks
[13:39] <davmor2> Myrtti: try a fresh install of Quantal before you resort to 12.04.1 unless you need the machine for work
[13:39] <davmor2> ali1234: most of it has been updated apart from the stuff that doesn't work in Quantal
[13:40] <Myrtti> davmor2: well I do prefer gm-notify over to the non-functioning webapps, I don't particularly need the machine for work as I'm still unemployed, but it would be lovely to have the thing working.
[13:40] <Myrtti> and gm-notify in quantal doesn't work either.
[13:41] <davmor2> Myrtti: the reason I say try Quantal first is it might solve your gm-notify and webapps issues on a fresh install and then you might be happier and have 12.04.1 as your backup plan
[13:42] <Myrtti> well gm-notify isn't fixed yet
[13:42] <davmor2> Myrtti: ah so that isn't just the Quantal upgrade then
[13:43] <Myrtti> no, it's you folks messing up the messaging menu API
[13:43] <Myrtti> bug 1040259
[13:44] <davmor2> Myrtti: I hope you aren't trying to blame me for that I don't touch it, blame gord it normally works for me :D
[13:46] <Myrtti> I'm not blaming anyone, I'm past that phase
[13:46] <AlanBell> davmor2: it doesn't work, the API was changed and the documentation is all wrong and things were broken
[13:46] <ali1234> is there a reason why skype does not have a tray icon any more?
[13:46] <ali1234> mine hasn't had one since 11.10
[13:46] <popey> it does here
[13:46] <Myrtti> I'm at the phase called "I've stopped actively caring and I'm about || close to moving to Debian testing anyway"
[13:46] <davmor2> ali1234: it does for me in 12.04 let me check 12.10
[13:47] <ali1234> i'm using 12.04
[13:47] <ali1234> but i'm using gnome-classic
[13:47] <ali1234> i can't test in unity as i can't install it
[13:48] <ali1234> hang on
[13:48] <ali1234> maybe it's cos i don't have a system tray on the panel
[13:49] <Myrtti> my hair makes my mood really foul. sorry.
[13:49] <ali1234> hmm well i added a notification area and i got some new icons, but not skype
[13:59] <davmor2> Myrtti: go home wash your hair
[13:59] <davmor2> ali1234: did you make sure that skype is in the whitelist?
[14:00] <ali1234> yes
[14:07] <Laney> yeah it's pretty unfortunate that we released Quantal with that half done
[14:12]  * popey spies an aquarius in Copenhagen
[14:12]  * SuperMatt ponders
[14:14] <SuperMatt> I do hope Valve don't announce the steam beta at uds, or all the uds people will have a head start signing up
[14:14] <popey> heheh
[14:14] <SuperMatt> ¬.¬
[14:16] <popey> fun times
[14:18] <SuperMatt> personally, I don't think 1000 users is enough for a beta test, but I guess valve know what they're doing :(
[14:19] <aquarius> popey, o hai
[14:19] <Azelphur> when is UDS? XD
[14:19] <SuperMatt> don't talk to him! he's planning on stealing steam beta signups!
[14:19] <SuperMatt> starting soon, isn't it?
[14:19] <Laney> next week
[14:19] <Azelphur> My upgrade to quantal on my laptop went really well xD
[14:20] <Azelphur> First boot, unity didn't start, dropped to classic, nm-applet segfaults when I try to connect to wifi :D
[14:20] <SuperMatt> oops
[14:20] <gord> 1000 users is enough for a beta test that has a good signal to noise ratio
[14:20] <Azelphur> indeed, xD
[14:21] <SuperMatt> gord: fair point
[14:21] <SuperMatt> I'm just worried I'm not going to be able to get on it
[14:21] <gord> do you need to be? just wait for proper release :P
[14:21] <SuperMatt> hmm, I've just realised valve have a week left in october, which is when they said they'd release it
[14:22] <gord> valve are well known for sticking to release dates as we all know
[14:22] <SuperMatt> though vavle time means that october is anything from 01-10-12 to 31-12-185834
[14:23] <Laney> i hate the word minutiae
[14:23] <gord> its a perfectly cromulant word
[14:36] <Methot> hi too all :)
[14:47] <SuperMatt> I challenge this channel to a more colourful desktop! http://ubuntuone.com/7SMbmoGwCiVTcszWvtx0en
[14:47] <SuperMatt> that's how I use it every day :)
[14:49] <davmor2> SuperMatt: you are a sad sad man
[14:49] <SuperMatt> why?
[14:50] <SuperMatt> it helps me differentiate between servers, so if I'm doing something on test and live, for instance, I don't accidentally do something destructive on live
[14:52] <davmor2> SuperMatt: indeed
[15:03] <Myrtti> oh man, I wish the princesses of the household would come home and have their shower so I can I go and wash my hair with the remaining hot water
[15:11] <SuperMatt> Myrtti: housemates or family?
[15:13] <Myrtti> SuperMatt: been staying at my sisters at my mums old house for a month and after living for a year here they've quite established that the boiler doesn't cope with four people taking a shower every day, when people went to sauna and shower twice a week when the storage heater was installed in the 70's
[15:14] <Myrtti> I'm the fourth and the least fussy about stinking for a few hours extra, so I'll just wait for them to come home and I can wash my hair at 11 when the storage heater has had an hour to warm up new batch of hot water.
[15:21] <andyc> Oh cool!  I have always used chromium but just started using firefox again and have discovered that 12.10 installed loads of crazy unity apps for some websites
[15:21] <andyc> Very useful
[15:22] <Myrtti> they should work in chromium too. if you've got needed bits installed. and if they work.
[15:23] <andyc> I mustn't have had the right stuff installed because I was never asked to install them
[15:24] <SuperMatt> I've been agonising over which browser to use on a permanent basis
[15:24] <popey> i switched to chromium
[15:24] <SuperMatt> thing is, I think firefox is best on the desktop, and chrome is best on android
[15:24] <SuperMatt> so I can't easily sync between them
[15:24] <popey> chrome eats the battery of my laptop
[15:25] <gord> omnomnom
[15:25] <SuperMatt> I've found that since installing quantal, my laptop has had *much* better battery life
[15:26] <andyc> For some reason the tabs occasionally flicker on chromium on my machine
[15:26] <andyc> Which is quite annoying
[15:29] <andyc> Ouch EE only offers 500Mb for £36?
[15:29] <andyc> Good job I dont have an upgrade for another year, prices might be reasonable by then
[15:37] <AlanBell> don't get why people are angry about EE being expensive
[15:39] <ali1234> more annoyed that my phone doesn't work any more cos it is blacklisted by orange and i'm on t-mobile and they merged
[15:39] <ali1234> (and became EE)
[15:46] <Azelphur> why does orange hate you?
[15:54] <ali1234> Azelphur: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3677593
[15:54] <ali1234> it seems that they blacklist the imei if you buy a pay-g phone and don't ever top it up
[15:54] <ali1234> of course this is not a PAY-G phone
[15:55] <ali1234> it was clearly not bought from orange because it has "NOT FOR SALE" printed on the back
[15:55] <ali1234> however it did have an orange rom on it when i got it
[15:55] <Azelphur> annoying, my mum has exactly the same but didn't get blacklisted
[15:55] <Azelphur> although, she doesn't use orange/t-mob
[15:55] <ali1234> it's not that phone model
[15:55] <ali1234> and it was only blacklisted on orange
[15:56] <Azelphur> ah
[15:56] <Azelphur> probably means she's blacklisted from EE too then, nice.
[15:56] <ali1234> when t-mobile and orange had the roaming agreement after the merge the phone would crash if it roamed onto orange network but worked fine on t-mobile
[15:56] <ali1234> now that they've merged the network it doesn't work at all
[15:57] <Azelphur> nice
[15:58] <Azelphur> I'd phone them up and complain continually
[15:58] <ali1234> i have done
[15:59] <ali1234> i can't prove it's my phone
[15:59] <ali1234> it's a demo model
[15:59] <ali1234> technically it belongs to orange or samsung
[16:00] <ali1234> i don't even know who
[16:00] <Azelphur> nice
[16:00] <Azelphur> I can prove at least, got amazon receipt
[16:03] <diplo> Anyone recommend a decent windows ftp server for win7 ?
[16:03] <diplo> :)
[16:04] <diplo> Wrong channel I know :D
[16:04] <diplo> Oooh didn't know filezilla did ftp server
[16:06] <Azelphur> diplo: haha, was just about to recommend filezilla, I used that on Windows before
[16:08] <SuperMatt> filezilla is about the only one I will bother using, myself
[16:08] <SuperMatt> though I try to stay away from ftp as much as I can
[16:08] <diplo> never use it myself
[16:08] <diplo> Someone in the offices I am wants to dump cisco cdr records to one
[16:09] <diplo> and the ftpd he is using sucks
[16:09] <SuperMatt> filezilla it is
[16:09] <SuperMatt> or just install ubuntu
[16:11] <diplo> hmm can't connect atm
[17:05] <andyc> AlanBell, I'm not angry about EE being expensive, I'm just glad I don't have an upgrade for a year else otherwise may have been tempted to spend a lot
[17:07] <davmor2> andyc: why do you think it will be cheaper in a year?  It took about 5 for the price of 3g to lower ;)
[17:29] <andyc> davmor2, True - plus EE will be on their own with 4G for a while so it's not likely to drop any time soon
[17:30] <andyc> sigh
[17:41] <kvarley> I'm looking for a sub-500 quid laptop/notebook/netbook/ultrabook that will run Ubuntu with the Unity interface and preferably it will be quiet. Any suggestions?
[17:42] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: sub-£500 ultrabook? Good luck with that ;)
[17:42] <zleap> oh ultra book
[17:42] <zleap> dunno sorry
[17:42] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: Hehe true, I'd stretch for an ultrabook.
[17:43]  * MartijnVdS ordered one of the new Chromebooks
[17:43] <MartijnVdS> but I'm not sure if I want to run Ubuntu on it or not
[17:44] <kvarley> MartijnVdS: I would do I don't want to buy something when I'm going to immediately void the warranty by installing Ubuntu on it
[18:18] <directhex> ultrabooks are something quite specific. and i don't see them happening at <£800
[18:19] <directhex> e.g. SSDs cost money
[18:20] <directhex> Lenovo IdeaPad U310 is technically an entry level ultrabook for £600
[18:53] <locodir-user> hi
[18:53] <locodir-user> i have a small query please
[18:54] <locodir-user> I am working on ubuntu 12.04
[18:54] <locodir-user> but i think ubuntu 12.1 is realeased and i tried to upgrade using software upgrader. but i am not successful yet
[18:55] <locodir-user> any help please
[18:55] <locodir-user> hello
[18:55] <locodir-user> anyone out there?pls
[18:56] <locodir-user> hello
[18:56] <airurando> hi locodir-user
[18:57] <airurando> you may not get a reply straight away
[18:57] <locodir-user> ok
[18:57] <locodir-user> sorry
[18:57] <airurando> Unfortunately I'm not good on upgrades
[18:58] <locodir-user> ok not an issue. I am just curious to know
[18:58] <airurando> I failed with a 12.04 to 12.10 upgrade myself
[18:58] <locodir-user> oh, did you
[18:59] <locodir-user> Why does it difficult? i do know nothing about ubuntu programming
[18:59] <airurando> yeah I had a graphics card issue
[18:59] <locodir-user> ok
[18:59] <airurando> It is not supposed to be difficult
[18:59] <locodir-user> ok
[19:00] <locodir-user> i mean i clicked update centre and installed everything
[19:00] <locodir-user> but no difference
[19:00] <airurando> for the less tech savvy people like myself I'd recommend sticking with the long term support releases like 12.04
[19:00] <motters> I would also recommend sticking with 12.04
[19:01] <motters> 12.10 is still quite unstable.  I've seen many crashes
[19:01] <airurando> locodir-user: upgrade differs from update
[19:02] <locodir-user> ok
[19:02] <locodir-user> oh
[19:02] <locodir-user> ok
[19:02] <locodir-user> i didnt know that
[19:02] <locodir-user> will it make my computer slow?
[19:03] <airurando> depends on you computer.  If you upgrade to 12.10 you may indeed encounter difficulties
[19:03] <motters> I don't think 12.10 is much slower than 12.04.  A lot depends upon the graphics drivers.
[19:03] <airurando> then again you may not
[19:04] <locodir-user> ok
[19:04] <airurando> always back up your data before attempting an upgrade
[19:04] <locodir-user> that means i have to format my hard drive? do i?
[19:04] <airurando> no
[19:05] <locodir-user> ok
[19:05] <locodir-user> where can i download it from
[19:06] <airurando> you should look at: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop/upgrade
[19:06] <locodir-user> thanks a lot
[19:06] <locodir-user> let me try that
[19:06] <locodir-user> bye
[19:07] <airurando> be careful.
[19:07] <airurando> bye
[19:12] <locodir-user> it doesnt show ubuntu 12.1 is available
[19:12] <dogmatic69> maybe because there is no such thing as 12.1
[19:12] <motters> I think you have to change the setting in software sources
[19:12] <locodir-user> perfect answer
[19:12] <locodir-user> how?
[19:13] <motters> open the software centre and on the menu there is software sources
[19:14] <motters> under updates select notify of any new version
[19:14] <AlanBell> yes, by default it will be set to only offer lts releases
[19:15] <locodir-user> cool
[19:15] <locodir-user> got it
[19:16] <locodir-user> lets see
[19:16] <locodir-user> i will be back
[19:16] <locodir-user> downloading
[19:57] <ali1234> why do we have gcc-4.7 packaged but not g++-4.7?
[19:58] <ali1234> and how is that even possible?
[20:33] <airurando> coderdojo spawned in Ireland I beliece
[20:33] <airurando> wrong channel
[20:34] <airurando> sorry
[20:34] <AlanBell> :)
[20:51] <Myrtti> ali1234: out of interest, are you using in your pidgin IRC More plugin?
[20:51] <ali1234> i don't think so
[20:52] <Myrtti> good
[20:52] <Myrtti> I found the bug and it's not actually specific to Windows as I thought it would
[20:52] <AlanBell> bigcalm: done anything interesting with your camera yet?
[20:52] <Myrtti> https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/14635
[20:52] <bigcalm> AlanBell: it's sat on my windowsill looking pretty. Haven't plugged it in yet. I want time to do things
[20:53] <bigcalm> AlanBell: how's your camera standing up to the weather?
[20:53] <AlanBell> http://ubingo.libertus.co.uk/cam/pad fine, but I might have to sort out the cobwebs
[20:53] <bigcalm> Heh
[20:54] <bigcalm> Milk bottle watch
[21:05] <AlanBell> so, I have a copy of internet explorer that has been persuaded to run the activex control for the camera that can do audio as well as video
[21:06] <AlanBell> using wireshark or tcpdump or something else, how do I find out what it is really doing?
[21:06] <AlanBell> I want to find the "give me audio" address and the "play this audio" address, they will be weblike calls to stuff running on port 9090
[21:07] <AlanBell> but I get masses and masses of data that is all just boring video stuff, not sure how to filter what I want
[21:17] <mgdm> Use netstat to see what ports are open between the computer and the camera?
[21:17] <mgdm> it's entirely possible that the video and the audio are part of the same stream, though
[21:18] <AlanBell> I think it is all on one port, the video is just mjpeg over http
[21:18] <AlanBell> I managed to get audio working and video turned off
[21:18] <AlanBell> just can't get any sense out of the packet data
[21:23] <daubers> AlanBell: tar it and put it on the web somewhere for someone o pick apart?
[21:24] <AlanBell> yeah, might do, I am just trying some more basic stuff to get the hang of wireshark
[21:26] <daubers> AlanBell: You can follow the TCP stream. I normally find that more useful when I'm inside wireshark
[21:26] <AlanBell> yeah, that makes sense for the web pages it gets
[21:39] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/packets
[21:39] <AlanBell> nothing in there that I can decypher
[21:40] <AlanBell> that is a stream to the correct IP address for the camera, nothing happened for a bit, I turned on audio then stopped the capture
[21:40] <directhex> AlanBell: oh 'ello. you're trying to get usable streams from an ip cctv system?
[21:40] <AlanBell> it starts with binary
[21:40] <zleap> AlanBell, when are the ubuntu cd's released ?
[21:40] <AlanBell> directhex: yeah, the audio bit of it
[21:40] <AlanBell> video is a perfectly good stream that renders fine in an <img> tag
[21:41] <directhex> AlanBell: okay. does the cctv box itself support exporting sections of video to usb or cd for archival?
[21:41] <AlanBell> zleap: week or two
[21:41] <directhex> i had luck reverse-engineering the data format of a cctv system from the saved streams
[21:41] <zleap> ok
[21:41] <AlanBell> directhex: there is an activex control that can do two way audio
[21:42] <AlanBell> that can save stuff, it can do some saving on board the unit too
[21:42] <AlanBell> and ftp stuff to you
[21:42] <directhex> AlanBell: at the very least you can isolate the codec it's using from a saved stream
[21:43] <AlanBell> ah ok
[21:43]  * AlanBell gets an AVI with the audio
[21:44] <AlanBell> ooh it does do asf with the audio playback
[21:44] <AlanBell> vlc:http://ubingo.libertus.co.uk:9090/videostream.asf?user=guest&pwd=guest
[21:46] <AlanBell> so, how do I get the codec info out of this avi file?
[21:46] <mgdm> ffmpeg? mplayer? mediainfo.sf.net?
[21:46] <directhex> ffmpeg -i?
[21:47] <AlanBell> Stream #0.0: Audio: pcm_s16le, 8000 Hz, 1 channels, s16, 128 kb/s
[21:47] <directhex> 8khz wav? sounds pretty likely
[21:47] <AlanBell> yeah
[22:42] <n1md4> Any empathy users here?
[22:43] <n1md4> ...the question is, I used empathy at work and it logs in, but recently on my laptop it does not.  I am ablo to login using pidgin on the laptop though.
[22:43] <n1md4> Somethings not right, I'd like it to be more than empathy being rubbish ... but I'm not holding my breath!
[22:43] <n1md4> Any comments ....