/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/10/24/#ubuntu-discuss.txt

guntbertsome remarks about the upgrade process: the user is asked (several times) if he want to keep/replace certain config files. There is no way to know when those questions will pop up - makes the upgrade last a lot longer than necessary unless I watch it all the time - against what package would I file a bug in this case?20:13
MrChrisDruifI think there isn't a clear cut answer for that. I guess all packages which got new config files?20:15
MrChrisDruifThen again, I'm no developer.20:16
MrChrisDruifI think I'd go for update-manager, because you the "end-user" got a problem with the upgrade progress guntbert20:17
guntbertMrChrisDruif: will do, thx for the advice (finding the right package is sometimes the hardest part of a good bug report :)20:18
MrChrisDruifNo probs.20:19
=== glebihan_ is now known as glebihan
guntberton a totally different topic: what might be the right place/situation where the ubuntu gods (iow mark shuttleworth) would be really listening to the concerns about unity-lens-shopping being opt-out instead of opt-in (as it should be)20:44
guntbertI read his blog and the discussion there, and he seems not to hear what many are talking about20:46
IdleOneI don't think that his response would be any different if you wrote a letter or sent him an email.20:49
MrChrisDruifHe has his talks on IRC once a month I think. But talking to Canonical staff also worth your time.20:49
MrChrisDruifjono_; ^20:49
IdleOneguntbert: there is a Ask Mark session at 10:00UTC on the 25th20:50
IdleOnetomorrow*20:50
IdleOneI am sure he will get many questions about it then20:50
guntbertIdleOne: MrChrisDruif: I was not so concerned about throwing my "very special" voice into the melee - and contacting him personally about this was mot my intention - where is that session held?20:54
IdleOnein #ubuntu-classroom http://is.gd/8rtIi |20:54
IdleOnethe times on the calendar are UTC20:54
guntbertIdleOne: thx, I'll have to read the logs - lesson time :-)20:58
IdleOnesame here, that will be at 6:00AM my time and i don't think I will be awake20:59
MrChrisDruifNoon, I'm at work at that time ^_^21:00
jono_guntbert, hey21:03
jono_Mark is well aware of the concerns, I can assure youi21:03
jono_he reads the blogs, discussions, and mailing list threads21:03
guntberthey jono_ : I am sure he is aware, but his responses didn't sound as if he really had listened21:04
jono_guntbert, how so?21:04
jono_I think he responded appropriately, he just disagreed with much of the concern21:05
guntbertwell in the blog he didn't adress the opt-out vs opt-in policy at all, and the "we have root" was just outrageous in my opinion21:06
jono_guntbert, to be fair, his point about root was simply a point about trust21:06
jono_Ubuntu developers do have root...packages run as root21:06
jono_he was making the point that it is fair for our users to trust Ubuntu developers21:07
jono_as we have always had root packages and this trust has always served our users well21:07
jono_guntbert, in terms of the opt out thing, this was address in Cristian Parrino's post21:07
jono_http://blog.canonical.com/2012/10/12/searching-in-the-dash-in-ubuntu-12-10-an-update/21:07
* guntbert hadn't seen that post yet21:08
IdleOneThe we have root comment was meant to be cheaky21:08
guntbertjono_: to trust someone21:08
jono_IdleOne, indeed21:09
guntbertjono_: to trust someone not to mess my system is a completely different sort of trust than to trust them with my data21:09
IdleOneit was not meant to be literal, language barriers can make it difficult to grasp the humour that was intended.21:09
jono_guntbert, right, and I agree, but the point he made was that Ubuntu is built on a foundation of trust, and if we have managed to handle that trust well for eight years, it should provide some reassurance to our users21:10
IdleOneguntbert: although you do have a firm grasp of the English language I believe that some of the more suttle humour may still escape you.21:10
jono_guntbert, if you don't like the feature, switch it off21:10
jono_there is a button21:10
jono_it was definitely a tongue in cheek comment21:10
IdleOnesubtle*21:10
jono_no doubt, and I think you raise a good point, IdleOne, about the subtlety sometimes being lost21:11
IdleOnejono_: I think Mark is often misunderstood, he does IMO have a special sense of humour21:11
jono_IdleOne, I agree21:11
guntbertit is too late for me today to go into a deeper discussion - but jono_ you last remark (off-button) touches exactly my main concern: opt-out vs opt.in21:11
MrChrisDruifIdleOne; subtle humour gets lost without the non-verbal part. =)21:12
IdleOneguntbert: I agree that the shopping lens should be an opt-in, BUT that would mean less users would get to see it. making it an opt-out feature at least allows the user to see it one time.21:13
IdleOneMrChrisDruif: true, text is not always the best medium for humour21:13
MrChrisDruif=D21:13
jono_guntbert, was nice chatting21:13
jono_have a nice evening21:14
guntbertIdleOne: true, but the standard rules for privacy and data protection require just that: "offer it", promote it - but let people opt-in21:14
guntbertjono_: thx for listening - have a nice time too21:15

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