[07:58] http://video.ubuntu.com/live/ UDS is starting up === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk === schwuk is now known as schwuk_uds [08:30] AlanBell: black screen and loud buzzing noise? [08:30] hi all! [08:31] ali1234: refresh, it is back now [08:31] i get nothing now [08:34] I'll catch the keynote on the youtubes [08:40] the year of ARM servers is like the year of linux desktop [08:41] heh [08:42] morning [08:43] o/ [08:44] Mooornin [08:45] morning all [08:46] \o [08:48] afternoon all. [08:49] gah - half term :-( [08:54] Mrs TheOpenSourcerer tried her new PC last night. Doesn't like the global menu (neither do I). Wants to have her shortcuts to various directories/apps etc. that used to live along the top bar restored. lol Told her that was "by design" and she had no hope. [09:01] TheOpenSourcerer: change to xubuntu? [09:01] aloha [09:04] morning danfish. I am inclined to see if I can fix, or workaround, these limitations. [09:11] I've just had a weird problem - Rhythmbox refused to play m4a files despite installing restricted extras. This was resolved when I removed ~/gstreamer-0.10... What is kept in there that stops a file being played correctly? [09:11] I really really dislike Mondays [09:12] Oh no scrap that - the issue isn't resolved :P [09:13] Hmmm i an realy thinking about trying the google on a nexus thing [09:14] knightdroid, What's that then? [09:15] What they showed at uds running full scale ubuntu on a nexus 7 [09:16] Oh I saw a post on g+ from popey with an image of that [09:16] Can it dual boot? I wouldn't want to lose android if I had one... [09:16] danfish: Have you ever played with the room thermostat controls on a boiler? [09:19] morning all [09:19] An [09:20] daubers: a little bit - what've you got in mind? [09:20] An inger [09:20] Sorry fighting a small keyboard here [09:23] danfish: Arduino, SSR, Xbee :) [09:23] danfish: timer's failed in the boiler. Thought it would be a good time to "upgrade" [09:25] daubers: sounds like a plan - have you tried programming the ATtiny84's with arduino - very cheap when you don't want/need a full arduino [09:26] danfish: Yes :) Will eventually replace the lot with a specifically made PCB. Just throwing it together with what's around at the moment. [09:45] andyc it does not dual boot [09:45] it should be easy enough to implement though [10:04] good job UDS is on this side of the pond! [10:08] Heh. I think every time I've flw [10:08] flown anywhere in the past few years I've had the opportunity to be pleasantly surprised at modern Linux printer support [10:09] but it's odd that the only time I need to print anything is when I'm going to fly somewhere... [10:13] BigRedS: when you here? [10:18] I arrive this eve and leave Weds morning. Apparentrly I'm to talk to people in suits at this enterprise summit, though, rahter than do anything particularly interesting [10:18] I'll be putting the hype in hyperscaling apparently; I will be winning ubingo. [10:21] make sure you come say hi [10:21] and poke Laney [10:22] gord: you alive! [10:22] grururneiruane [10:23] Laney: and how is your noggin [10:23] wot [10:23] * BigRedS fills in this valve-on-linux survey [10:23] really hard to not think "Hm, which would make me an ideal test-case" for each question [10:25] good morning everyone. === OmNomDePlume is now known as SirCrispinTheJew [10:34] Good morning! [10:34] good morning BigRedS [10:35] morning, how's thinks? [10:35] er, things [10:35] Morning BigRedS [10:36] BigRedS: not bad, my eczema is irritable. and have my dermatologist to at the hospital this afternoon. and you? [10:37] Not bad. Got incredibly cold and wet on teh way home last night, still mildly bitter about having to come back up to The North from London every weekend [10:43] BigRedS: joined 16384 [10:43] BigRedS: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad/+members [11:05] czajkowski: hm? [11:07] BigRedS: join that team so you can read the notes from sessions [11:08] czajkowski: I thought as much, can't find a 'join' button... :) [11:08] BigRedS: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad [11:10] aha! [11:11] maybe I need to spend more time on lp [11:11] Morning all [11:29] Good morning peeps :) [11:29] 'lo [11:30] morning bigcalm [11:31] mgdm: I'm going to be (at some point) working on a generic social club management system in Symfony2 and OS the whole thing. Think you might be interested in chipping in at some point? [11:31] Hi davmor2 [11:32] davmor2: I'm on holiday this Thursday, so won't be at the workplace day (will we ever have one again?). So I should attend the LUG on Wednesday [11:32] bigcalm: possibly, keep me informed :) [11:32] mgdm: grand :) [11:32] is it rope-mgdm-into-more-projects day? Because I just did that too :) [11:32] bigcalm: not at this rate although I'll catch up with moreati and mrevell and see if they are going [11:33] I can't decide to do it under my own github account or start a new one for this project under my idophp name [11:33] lornajane: \o/ Fancy seeing you in here :) [11:33] bigcalm: I only come here when I either need some sanity, or want something === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [11:33] Haha, this is one of the more gentile channels... [11:34] lornajane: well, good to see you here for what ever reason :) [11:35] hehe [11:35] yeah, hence the 'possibly' :) [11:35] I've been meaning to learn SF2, just not quite had enough round tuits yet [11:37] A club that my father is in is in need of what they call an 'intranet'. I call is a generic social club management system. So I'm trying to get as many requirement details out of him before even considering coding [11:37] wise [11:37] Having a project with structure is a good way to learn a new framework I think [11:38] I have a project in mind, too [11:38] I just wish I understood how to do ACL, for groups of clients, properly in SF2 [11:38] But will it be OS? [11:41] Argh..How difficult is it to get work done when you're working from home [11:41] Mine might be depending on how well I think I do it ;-) [11:41] lornajane: any ideas about doing ACLs like bigcalm's talking about? [11:41] DJones: I work from home full time and find I enjoy the peace and quiet ... I have a good setup here though as I'm here all the time [11:42] DJones: very easy. [11:42] mgdm, bigcalm: I haven't done a lot with SF2 myself so although I know there are users/groups type permissions, I couldn't say more than that [11:42] DJones: you have to be committed to your work. There are lots of distractions here [11:42] I wfh and have it set up nicely [11:42] bigcalm: http://civicrm.org/ [11:42] lornajane: I will be doing 90% of the time, but as its just starting, I keep thinking I should be doing something else [11:42] TheOpenSourcerer: looked at it, too complex for what is required [11:43] DJones: shut the door until lunchtime :) [11:43] Just feels strange to be sat with work to do, and to be at home, think it'll take a week or so to get settled [11:43] DJones: took me a couple of years [11:43] actually I do now run up and down the stairs putting washing in and things, but I started with quite a strict office routine [11:43] DJones: are you working from home full time now? [11:43] bigcalm: Something probably will do what you need in here then: http://extensions.joomla.org/extensions/clients-a-communities [11:44] I was lucky and got to practice as a remote employee first, before I went self-employed, so I made office-hours habits [11:44] TheOpenSourcerer: joomla is in the wrong language for me [11:44] CommunityBuilder is very popular [11:44] TheOpenSourcerer: the point of doing this in PHP and SF2 is that it will aid my understanding for my day time job [11:45] bigcalm: Yes, got made redundant, so started up as self employed, picked up a few clients to start, mostly working from home, occasional visit to the client, although most of it is dealt with through email/phone [11:45] DJones: wow, good luck with it :) [11:45] bigcalm: wrong language? Joomla? It's PHP? [11:45] What services do you offer DJones? [11:45] Thanks, going ok so far, the dog loves the idea of me being home all day [11:45] TheOpenSourcerer: bookkeeping/accounts [11:45] mgdm: doh, I was thinking of something else :) [11:46] mgdm: is Joomla the one that seems to be used for education/training? [11:46] bigcalm: that might be moodle [11:46] Joomla! is just the biggest CMS evah! [11:46] lornajane: you're right, it's moodle. Hated working with that :) [11:46] TheOpenSourcerer: I thought that was Drupal [11:47] in my experience, if you think the answer is joomla, it probably isn't. Look at drupal by all means, but if you want to make yourself a SF2 project, then go ahead [11:47] http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Joomla,%20Drupal [11:47] TheOpenSourcerer: Pretty much anything along those lines, anything from taxi drivers, security firms (bouncers), restaurants, pubsgrooming parlour so far [11:47] TheOpenSourcerer: wow [11:48] a street fighter 2 project? [11:48] Don't believe the drupal hype. It's a great product yes, but so is Joomla! [11:49] Joomla! 3 is lovely :-) [11:50] I did some work on a Joomla thing a while ago and that was not my opinion, but each to their own :) [11:50] it might've been the particular extension I was using [11:50] it can't be worse than drupal [11:50] I think I got burned by an old joomla version [11:51] This one had two models - one for the front-end, and another for the admin [11:51] It has improved a lot since the 1.5 series. [11:51] which I thought was *bananas* [11:52] Hey - I like the separation between front and back ends ;-) [11:54] yeah but the models need to be shared! Front ends need templates, back ends probably don't. In fact, I think I'm really going to like django when I a) have some time and b) learn some python [11:56] Django seems to be the one thing that nobody ever complains about [11:56] I've used it a bit [12:06] I can complain about django [12:07] adding or changing a field is a heap of pain that I don't want to care about [12:08] needs south and schema migrations and service restarts [12:09] all the full-stack PHP frameworks are going the same way though for that kind of thing [12:09] Hm [12:09] Django seems to be the one thing that nobody other than Alans ever complain about [12:09] :) [12:10] * TheOpenSourcerer hasn't said anything since the only Django he knows is a deceased guitar player [12:11] AlanBell: yeah but then you can find complaints about everything ;) [12:11] Slowly catching up on UUPC. Only 4 more until I'm up to date :S [12:11] * TheOpenSourcerer hates half-term. Will need to go and feed the ankle biters shortly... [12:11] Loving that the presenters are slowly going insane [12:12] TheOpenSourcerer: Actually, I think Django is named after him [12:12] bigcalm: slowly?!?!?! [12:12] davmor2: yes [12:12] :P [12:12] Each episode has them cracking up more and more [12:13] einonm: Him -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_Reinhardt [12:13] Yep: "The Django web framework is named after him, as is version 3.1 of the blog software WordPress.[35]" [12:13] bigcalm: I think you'll find that popey and tonytiger haven't been sane for years ;) [12:13] TheOpenSourcerer: yup, the guy with less than the full amount of fingers. I think there's a naming scheme for modules that's jazz-music based because of it [12:14] bigcalm: I love Django \o/ [12:14] Fantastic guitarist. My Dad got me into him. [12:15] TheOpenSourcerer: He ws the reason Tony Iommi (sp?) got back into playing after losing a finger too [12:16] Did you all see that Parallela got the Kickstarter funding? :-D [12:17] http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adapteva/parallella-a-supercomputer-for-everyone [12:17] yah! :D [12:17] I didn't think they were going to make it a few days ago. [12:23] * AlanBell is on a train [12:24] Choochoo [12:24] AlanBell: You'd be better off inside the train...... [12:24] AlanBell is in India [12:24] true [12:24] and false :) [12:24] lubotu3: I missed you! [12:25] aq goes away and lubotu3 comes back?? [12:25] aq is lubotu3 ! [12:25] you never see them in the same room together [12:27] * daubers waits for lubotu3 to leave.... === viperhoo__ is now known as viperhoot [13:59] Has anybody installed dropbox from the repo's on 12.04 recently, when it starts its giving me a warning "Dropbox is running from an unsupported location" and wants to download & install the latest version from dropbox [14:00] Ah, known bug === Moz is now known as Guest95025 === schwuk_uds is now known as schwuk === schwuk is now known as schwuk_uds [15:01] popey: Amy Ferguson? (I'm catching up on uupcs) [15:02] friend of ours [15:02] Cool [15:02] popey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Ferguson ? [15:03] popey: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20033471 [15:04] :) [15:04] Heh [15:47] ARGH, getting fed up of "International incoming calls" asking to speak to someone who has never lived here [16:18] AlanBell, you around? [16:21] I seem to be having issues with pad.ubuntu.com - never used it before, is there anything special I need to do to login? I'm already in launchpad. [16:25] DJones: simply ask for the company name so you know who to sue for harassment you'll be surprised by how quickly they a) hang up and b) never ring again [16:26] davmor2: I told them couldn't speak to the person they wanted because they died about 5 years ago, next thing I heard was the click as the call was ended [16:27] DJones: Yes but they won't put that on the system to stop the calls. If you threaten to sue them you're number gets flagged as hostile and they never ring again [16:28] That works with uk calls, doesn't seem to bother overseas call centres [16:28] I find most of the international callers have heard of the telephone preference service stuff and will vanish FAST when they find out they shouldn't have called you [16:29] I also report them if I get a company name [16:29] I do that when I get info [16:33] DJones: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/27/cold-calling-firm-success_n_2029425.html [16:33] i'm finally going to re-install ubuntu [16:33] full disk encryption on 12.10,, [16:34] i've been away a year, anything worth knowing about :) [16:35] I have home encryption on my one server and its pants. would not do it again. [16:36] home encryption is completely different [16:36] that's a stacked encryption, ontop of the filesystem [16:36] this is block level encrytpion [16:36] so the whole partition is encrypted [16:44] rigth, boot usb disk made, time to reboot [16:45] see you soon if i survive "!: [16:58] I've managed to scare off people twice this year with the absolute truth. Unfortunately they were both "legit" calls because they were from companies we actually use, just have no interest in upgrading/adding features. [16:58] The first was the evening of the day my grandmother died [16:59] The second was when I was in the acute hospital a couple weeks ago. (No one's tried since I've been in the rehab hospital yet) [16:59] I always have this sense of satisfaction when they start apologizing [17:29] yay,, ok, i'm up and running, but then I'm not.. [17:29] finished my install, now unity desktop wont' show up [17:29] that sounds like a feature to me [17:29] * lornajane ducks [17:30] i login to my user, i just see the wallpaper, no toolbar [17:30] hi popey [17:30] on train now [17:30] this is after trying to enable additional drivers [17:31] for my nvidia card :( [17:31] how do i disable that without being able to see the desktop :( i can switch to a tty terminal [17:33] arrrg, stuck [17:35] NET||abuse: when you log in, the screen where you have a username and password, you will have a choice of desktops [17:35] hi guys, nope [17:35] been searching all over that, there's no options [17:35] o.O [17:35] try a different one (desktops might not be the right term) [17:35] yeh, there's nothing in any of the menus up the top anywhere [17:36] i have accessability, language, network, sound, power, clock and shutdown menu [17:36] there's nothing to do with desktop options. [17:36] I expected the little cog icon somwhere around my name for the login [17:36] NET||abuse: is there an icon next to your login name (where you enter your password)? [17:36] Oh [17:36] how do i change the drivers from the command line [17:37] lornajane: on 12.10 there is only unity3d unless you install another desktop environment [17:37] hmm, this blows [17:37] Ubuntu, you failed me [17:37] davmor2: I'm an XFCE user so I am sort of the blind leading the blind here :) [17:37] NET||abuse: For the X server, I think there's a file like /etc/X.org.conf [17:37] xubuntu \o/ [17:37] I also haven't upgraded yet - only just back from mad conference trips, and upgrading in the middle of those never ends well [17:38] bigcalm: actually it was kind of Mint and then ... yeah. So now it's a bit of everything! [17:38] lornajane: Ubuntu 12.10 comes with PHP 5.4 as default. Was a bit of a shock and older projects don't like it :) [17:38] NET||abuse: that tells the X server to use the nvidia driver....or you can just do a 'sudo rmmod ' [17:38] NET||abuse: you can try sudo apt-get remove nvidia- till you get the right one and switch back to the neuvau driver [17:38] bigcalm: yeah I'm expecting a lot of migration enquiries === schwuk_uds is now known as schwuk [17:39] i tried the nvidia-current-updates so that broker [17:39] have to chooose the other nvidia-current one with (current,tested) instead of just current) [17:39] davmor2: cheers. [17:40] * BigRedS is in Copenhagen [17:40] right, got rid of nvidia-current-updates, login works again [17:41] BigRedS: give me your access to steam linux beta! [17:41] ahh, i signed up for that, I WANT [17:42] davmor2: that's 4 peeps going to the LUG, I wonder if we'll get back to normal numbers any time soon [17:43] I've been using the steam linuxthing as an excuse to not bother looking for ethernet drivers for Windows for my laptop [17:43] for about six weeks now... [17:44] AlanBell, will chat later, picked up some a11y stuff to do [17:44] great [17:44] need your help :) [17:44] ok [17:45] czajkowski, your tab is done [17:45] hmm, i installed the nvidia drivers and now my boot screen is all ugly. [17:46] popey: thank you [17:46] where are you now? [17:46] arrrg,, very supprised at this, the nvidia drivers not working on ubuntu, [17:47] NET||abuse: the ATI binary driver doesn't work in 12.10 either [17:47] czajkowski, in room, coming back down now [17:47] ok will be down in a bit do you want your bottle brought ? [17:47] bigcalm: so no-one has 3d accelleration yet? [17:47] wow!! [17:48] NET||abuse: I have no idea. It's not something I care much for [17:48] popey: want your bottle brought dwn ? [17:50] nah, I'll grab it later ta [17:51] * popey heads down [17:52] ok [17:52] popey: will grab my nexus tomorrow so === schwuk is now known as schwuk_uds [18:18] NET||abuse: Intel works great, and the free drivers for nvidia and AMD should work for the desktop shouldn't they? [18:43] i wouldn't want to use nouveau to run unity [19:38] My google plus is asking me to give them a phone number to verify ... Is there any way around this ? [19:38] bootinfdsds: click on the cancel button [19:39] davmor2, there isn't one .. there is only a continue button to key in the pass-code. [19:49] Has anyone got a spare mobile number that they haven't registered with google that I could use, just to get past this point, and then you can PM me the verification passcode (I think it is six or seven numbers) .. Let me know in a Private Mesage if you can help me out, Please. [19:49] I only use skype these days. [19:52] bootinfdsds: I don't know why it needs it, if you have a mobile I get it but there should be a cop out clause [20:01] davmor2, Right, exactly, I do have a landline, but why I should give anyone online - that number , I dunno ! [20:03] * bootinfdsds assumes the google-is-your-f'er position. [20:28] * MartijnVdS returns from the land of ire [20:39] ire or eire? [21:09] Anybody got a figure for how much RAM a fresh Ubuntu install uses with no programs loaded? [21:17] type free from the command line [21:17] as for a figure not sure [21:21] yothsoggoth: with a desktop started, or at the login screen? [21:21] AlanBell: With the desktop started [21:22] cleanest vm I have is running 12.10 and was installed with accessibility so orca is loaded, it uses 587328 at the login screen [21:23] Thanks AlanBell [21:23] it is using 800000 at the desktop (varying a bit) [21:23] this isn't a very meaningful figure [21:24] I gave it 1.7Gb of ram, it is using just under a gig of it because it can [21:26] Fair enough. I'm just pondering what distro to put on a 1GB netbook I have, obviously I want something with a fairly low minimum RAM usage === soreau_ is now known as soreau [21:36] I'd be more concerned about the DE than the distro that packaged it [21:37] BigRedS: Ze Germans? [21:39] BigRedS: Yeah, I've been looking at DEs too. I'm most likely gonna stick with XFCE. [21:39] Is there any major difference between install Xubuntu or installing Ubuntu and then XFCE? [21:44] yothsoggoth: what netbook exactly? [21:44] can it take 2GB? [21:45] and does it have a sensible atom processor and intel graphics that are not GMA500 poulsbo [21:45] AlanBell: Samsung n220 Plus. It's an Atom N450, but unfortunately only has 1GB ram [21:47] BigRedS: Eire, actually :) [21:47] yeah, pop in 2GB for about £20 [21:47] BigRedS: http://www.flickr.com/photos/treenaks :) [21:47] yeah, I do plan on upgrading to 2GB eventually [21:48] or ask around and see if anyone has a 2GB stick lying about [21:48] any videos of the valve talk at UDS available? [21:50] camason_: http://mirrors.tumbleweed.org.za/uds-r/ audio is here somewhere [21:51] thank you sir [21:51] that said, I can't see it in the list [21:52] I found it [21:52] http://mirrors.tumbleweed.org.za/uds-r/2012-10-29-13-10-drew-bliss-valve.0.ogg [21:52] oh, right [21:52] ctrl+f -> valve = win [21:52] * AlanBell listens to the IRC session and accessibility sessions [21:54] they're still going on?! [21:54] recordings :) [21:54] back in my day, UDS days stopped before dinner ;) [21:54] if Steam runs on Linux, the only thing still keeping me on a Windows host is Adobe [21:54] camason_: Adobe what? [21:55] photoshop / flash / illustrator [21:55] play two at once and use pulse settings to send one to the left ear and one to the right \o/ [21:55] twice the listening speed :) [21:55] AlanBell: also, play at 120% sped [21:55] speed [21:56] camason_: gimp and inkscape ftw :) [21:56] no chance :) [21:56] AlanBell: wfm ;) [21:56] though Rawtherapee is usually enough for me [21:56] \o/ Ireland pix ;) [21:57] camason_: any specific reason, or familiarity? [21:57] huge part is familiarity, but the other part is compatibility [21:57] personally I have used gimp and inkscape for many years, I would have no desire to learn photoshop and illustrator [21:57] so I can see the issue going the other way [21:58] not that I enjoy paying for it.. [21:58] camason_: Adobe do enjoy that bit though [21:58] I'm sure. [21:58] * MartijnVdS went to Dublin.. and it was great! :) [21:58] yeah, compatibility can be an issue for some people, I never have had to collaborate with people on source files though [21:59] we're an agency that does all the time :/ [21:59] oh, and InDesign [21:59] fair enough then :) [21:59] how could I forget. [21:59] gimp saves psd, doesn't it? [21:59] is that like scribus? [21:59] don't know. But the good thing is the adobe stuff runs pretty nicely in Vitualbox [22:00] MartijnVdS: yeah, I believe it can load and save adobe formats reasonably well [22:00] camason_: it might even run nicely in wine [22:00] no :( [22:00] but I can also believe it is not good enough if you are doing it all the time :) [22:00] although, the latest version runs much better in Wine than other builds ever did [22:01] generally I am using Gimp to do simple image processing for website artwork [22:02] where we are given some graphics (maybe as an existing website or PDF) and have to adapt it to fit the shape required for the thing we are building [22:02] the biggest reason I'm hoping Valve succeed is better video drivers [22:02] so maybe chopping stuff up to make repeating sections for fluid width layouts or whatever [22:02] looking forward to the day when I can install Ubuntu and arrange 4 screens like I can on windows [22:04] valve working with the driver devs can only help that [22:04] it is OKish for me on intel graphics with laptop and external monitors [22:04] although it does my head in that it always wants to flip to mirrored screens [22:05] I know the biggest issue is the hardware vendors and their closed binaries. [22:05] one thing that can be an issue is that too much testing is done on matching pairs of monitors on a desktop [22:05] this is an odd edge case for most people [22:05] my office setup is 2 Dell IPS panels on DisplayPort, 1 on HDMI, one of DVI [22:05] if you have a laptop with a 1366x768 screen it is *highly* unlikely that you are going to hook it up to an external display of matching resolution [22:06] getting that working at all on Ubuntu is a bit... tricky... [22:06] I often rotate one of the IPs panels into vertical mode. two clicks on windows to get it rotated [22:07] two clicks on Ubuntu [22:07] * AlanBell rotates screen [22:07] two hours to even get the screen to display :( [22:07] actally that is pretty cool :O [22:08] that would be heaven though... all the Adobe suite, supporting my tablets, and all my screens working :D [22:09] Designing on Linux is like developing on Windows. Designing on Windows is like Developing on Linux. [22:09] with our workflow [22:10] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/Screenshot%20from%202012-10-29%2022:09:02.png [22:10] nice :D [22:10] ubuntu actually has good built in support for multi monitors and rotation [22:11] it does until you have more than 1 card [22:11] just the binary drivers and proprietary controller applications are rubbish [22:11] over complicated and don't work well [22:11] yup :( [22:11] Unity isn't great for multi monitors, but that is a separate issue altogether [22:11] so I hope Valve's push will help improve the drivers [22:12] I'm having to use Gnome Classic at the moment. 3D accell in guests doesn't work in virtualbox for 12.10 [22:12] in fact in my current configuration in the screenshot the geany menu is about 2000 pixels away from the application itself [22:12] yeah, that is a real pain [22:12] isn't that a bit .. useless? [22:12] isn't what? [22:12] do you use mac OS devices camason_? [22:13] we do [22:13] is the global menu liked or hated? [22:13] but my main machine is Windows 7 host, Ubuntu guest [22:13] I don't use the macs day to day [22:14] are we talking about the header-bar merging into the desktop bar? [22:14] I think that is the one "feature" I will never get used to [22:14] that does wind me up [22:14] no, talking about menus being disconnected from the applications and put at the top of the screen [22:15] yeah, I know what you mean. I phrased it terribly [22:15]