[00:06] <AlanBell> night all
[00:37] <dogmatic69> anyone skilled in POP3?
[00:38] <dogmatic69> I cant seem to get emails via php sockets or telnet
[00:41] <dogmatic69> This is what I get using openssl http://bin.cakephp.org/view/527283938
[07:36] <diplo> Morning all
[07:58] <bootlkjkgf> diplo, Mornin' Subjagated people of the Queendom. .. I love big breakfast !  -------> http://goo.gl/Qon6S (5GBP/Mo.)
[08:33] <popey> Daviey, http://photos.pixoulphotography.com/Events/UDS-Raring-Ringtail/26357384_T6rzD6#!i=2197486286&k=tLjGkSM
[08:39] <theopensourcerer> Those crazy Fins http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/11/05/open_ministry_finland_s_open_source_project_to_let_citizens_propose_laws.html << Myrtti
[08:40] <christel> sok, most finns are too drunk all of the time to pose much of a threat as far as making law goes
[08:40] <christel> or actually... maybe that is more likely to result in some most bizarre legislation
[08:40] <christel> james \o/
[08:41] <Myrtti> I actually have been a guinea pig for the site
[08:42] <theopensourcerer> Hi Myrtti - you will be pleased to know that your postcard has arrived and is now on AlanBell's desk.
[08:43] <Myrtti> they wanted to check if my combination of bank, os and browser worked on the bank identification and signing
[08:43] <Myrtti> theopensourcerer: excellent
[08:44] <AlanBell> ooh :) I will be in the office shortly to see it
[09:03] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:22] <DJones> \o/ Jelly bean update on my phone
[09:23] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :)
[09:24] <SuperMatt> morning
[09:24] <Daviey> popey: hah, i don't even remember that photo
[09:25] <popey> tis a good one
[09:25] <popey> there's a couple more of you
[09:28] <JamesTait> Daviey, that photo looks like the split second before the chestburster emerges!
[09:32] <Daviey> heh
[09:37] <AlanBell> postcard for us from Finland \o/ https://plus.google.com/109175303602657131317/posts/gY3Uwx4yXvf
[09:39] <christel> ahahah i love it
[09:39] <christel> :D
[09:39]  * christel snuggles Myrtti 
[09:41] <mungojerry> anyone reckon i can repurpose this green button to do customised things with my ubuntu box? http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001FA6TR2
[09:41] <mungojerry> like do a screen lock when i press button
[09:48] <gord> it probably just emulates a keyboard
[09:48] <Daviey> mungojerry: almost certainly... but how much effort it takes i cannot comment :)
[09:48] <mungojerry> i wonder
[09:48] <mungojerry> would be quite fun
[09:49] <Daviey> I just wish i had a mechanism to search for how-to's on this stuff
[09:50] <Daviey> something that indexed at least 10,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000,­000 sites.
[09:50] <Daviey> (also known as a googol)
[09:50] <Daviey> Now i've finished trolling, http://www.greygreen.org/blog/code/python/ecobutton-linux
[09:51] <mungojerry> hey awesome
[09:51] <popey> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/RDH96GJN6A8R9/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B001D5LZ0K&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=560798&store=electronics
[09:51] <mungojerry> popey, but it's a button
[09:51] <mungojerry> i won't use it for the intended purpose
[09:52] <mungojerry> but use it as a wallpaper changer, screen lock, etc
[09:52] <popey> yes, i know :)
[09:52] <popey> i was linking to a 'review'
[09:55] <mungojerry> doesn't work on 64-bit :-|
[09:55] <mungojerry> you wouldn't think a driver would be that complicated
[09:59] <Daviey> uh?
[10:03] <popey> mungojerry, on windows?
[10:04] <mungojerry> i was just wondering out loud why ti wouldn't work on 64bit windows
[10:04] <mungojerry> probabyl because they diodn't sell any and it's been around since XP days
[10:06] <popey> i doubt it's a "driver" but more of a stupid panel applet thing to notify you of all the trees you've saved
[10:06] <mungojerry> ah true
[10:09] <popey> I'd plug it into a linux box and see what keyboard shortcut it binds to
[10:09] <popey> by running xev in a terminal and see what pops up when you press/release the button
[10:14] <mungojerry> Daviey posted a useful link for someone running it on linux
[10:14] <mungojerry> think i might buy one, it's only 4 quid
[10:15] <mungojerry> makes the day pass more easily when you have a green button that makes fart noises
[10:18] <gord> i've always said i want a usb racing pedal, pressing down on it would increase the value of the -j option passed to make
[10:18] <gord> and make vroooooooooooooooom noises
[10:22] <mungojerry> there you go gord, for 4 english pounds
[10:26] <Wobbo> At my work I PC (Mac) has been stolen. Is uses the (beta) Ubuntu one. I changes the passwords but my information is still on that Mac.
[10:26] <Wobbo> What to do?
[10:27] <diplo> Revoke access on the web panel for that machine ?
[10:27] <diplo> Sure you can do that, not logged in for a while
[10:27]  * diplo checks
[10:27] <gord> that still leaves the data on the machine
[10:27] <diplo> it sure does
[10:37] <mungojerry> take a copy of all files
[10:37] <mungojerry> then overwrite each file with one of zero bytes to replace on next sync
[10:37] <popey> it will only sync if someone logs in to that desktop account
[10:37] <popey> Wobbo, is it a mac running OSX?
[10:37] <popey> do you use find my mac?
[10:48] <Wobbo> Yes, it OSX 10.6
[10:50] <mungojerry> slightly disturbed about the email thread i've accidentally been copied into
[10:50] <Wobbo> Why, did you just buy one?
[10:50] <Wobbo> lol
[10:50] <mungojerry> about shipping a certain consignmnet through customs
[10:53] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:53] <mungojerry> some dude with a yacht that wants to shoot pirates with a laser rifle
[10:54] <popey> Wobbo, hah, no. just that macs come with software that helps you find them
[10:55] <popey> Wobbo, also maybe you can ask canonical if they will give you the IP of where it connects from
[10:55] <popey> to trace the laptop
[10:57] <Wobbo> Thanks
[11:00] <popey> or indeed any other service you had on it
[11:01] <popey> a friend of mine traced his laptop and got it back that way. can't remember the service he was using, but it was a third party app installed which revealed the IP to the online service.
[11:01] <popey> it was a mac too
[11:05] <Wobbo> It only about important information, lice password that need to be destroyed... (FTP stuff) I have al the information on other computers (normal Ubuntu).
[11:07] <gord> i would basically assume all passwords are compromised tbh
[11:07] <gord> just change them all
[11:08] <diplo> KeepassX
[11:08] <diplo> Generate passwords, and store them
[11:08] <diplo> Encrypted, + apps for phones etc and works on all os's
[11:09] <popey> lastpass \o/
[11:09] <popey> Daviey, what were you singing? http://photos.pixoulphotography.com/Events/UDS-Raring-Ringtail/26357384_T6rzD6#!i=2197627681&k=wwD4fRh
[11:13] <Daviey> popey: I'm still not quite sure.. but if i find out who put me in for it, i will stab them :-)
[11:15] <mungojerry> freemind is almost at v1.0.0 :-|
[11:35] <mungojerry> can you suspend desktop pc's which use nvidia propriatry driver yet?
[11:35] <mungojerry> my one at home fails spectacularly
[11:43] <SuperMatt> mungojerry: I'm using the nv driver on my laptop and closing the lid works fine
[11:43] <SuperMatt> though I don't know if it's suspending or hibernating right now
[11:43] <mungojerry> i'm using nvidia
[11:44] <mungojerry> it fails, but not sure if thats normal
[11:44] <SuperMatt> I would assume not right now
[11:44] <mungojerry> (it used to be hard for sure)
[11:44] <SuperMatt> but that doesn't mean I'm right
[12:27] <popey> AlanBell, have you documented your webcam stuff at all? now I'm back from UDS I can set it up sometime
[12:28] <AlanBell> undocumented and mostly junk https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+junk/camcontrol
[12:28] <AlanBell> and at the moment relies on the camera being mounted inverted :)
[12:28] <AlanBell> I will fix that at some point
[12:33] <ahayzen> Hi, if I have a python package which supports both py2 and py3 in the same package should I distribute it as python-abc or python3-abc or both? Thanks, Andy
[12:34] <ali1234> try asking on #ubuntu-motu
[12:34] <ali1234> i would go for just python-whatever
[12:34] <ahayzen> ali1234, Ok thanks :)
[12:38] <ahayzen> ali1234, if u were interested, u apparently have to do both - as my package is a library
[12:39] <ali1234> i see
[12:39] <ali1234> thank makes sense, you'll only need one source package to do that i guess
[12:41] <ahayzen> then just modify the debian stuff for each one?
[12:42] <ahayzen> ali1234, http://wiki.debian.org/Python/LibraryStyleGuide seems to tell u what to do
[12:43] <ali1234> AlanBell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1337199/ would that do in camcontrol.py?
[12:46] <ali1234> alternatively: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1337203/
[13:09] <diplo> Really must buy one myself
[13:20] <cocoa117> anyone experience issue with ubuntu 12.04 suspend after 3 hour or more, then when wake it up, the whole system freeze?
[13:22] <bigcalm> I haven't. But it sounds like it could be dependant upon the hardware in use
[13:23] <cocoa117> it actually happens on two of my computers, they are different brand
[13:24] <bigcalm> I left my laptop on suspend for 2 days by mistake. Worked just fine when I woke it up
[13:24] <AlanBell> ali1234: yeah, I was going to do the latter, it was just a consequence of it being written to solve my problem, not as a general thing
[13:25] <AlanBell> ideally it would be replaced with something running on the firmware of the camera
[13:32] <popey> Daviey, apparently you sun Killer Queen
[13:34] <Daviey> popey: Nah it wans't!
[13:34] <bideannambian> cocoa117: google i915 rc6 enable
[13:36] <bideannambian> if you have intel graphics
[13:37] <cocoa117> bideannambian, en... i don't think my cpu is sandybridge
[13:37] <cocoa117> it is core2 duo
[13:37] <cocoa117> and both of them are desktop, not laptop
[13:39] <popey> cocoa117, nvidia video card?
[13:40] <cocoa117> popey, yes, one of them have nvidia video card, and the other one don't. it's intel build in vga card, as home server
[13:41] <cocoa117> desktop have NVIDIA Corporation GF108 [GeForce GT 430]
[13:41] <popey> probably a long existing bug in nvidia binary driver
[14:12] <Laney> brr
[14:12] <Laney> quick afternoon heating blast methinks
[14:13] <czajkowski> Laney: put on a jumper
[14:13] <Laney> already have 2 on
[14:14] <Laney> and a pair of these bad boys http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00532S3FY/ref=asc_df_B00532S3FY10457553/?tag=googlecouk06-21&creative=22134&creativeASIN=B00532S3FY&linkCode=asn
[14:14] <czajkowski> scarf
[14:14] <Laney> haha
[14:14] <czajkowski> funky
[14:14] <Laney> at some point there is a limit to what you should wear inside your house
[14:15] <Laney> it's somewhere below a scarf for me
[14:15] <Daviey> Laney: you need a rack of servers in your house.. that keeps you nice and toasty
[14:15] <Daviey> And you can do a full archive rebuild!
[14:16] <Laney> phwoar
[14:16] <czajkowski> anyone any recommendations for books about/on Historical Dramas :)
[14:21] <BigRedS> fiction, presumably? Not just dramatic events of history...
[14:22] <czajkowski> yes
[14:22] <czajkowski> fiction I'd assume also
[14:22] <czajkowski> but dont know any
[14:28] <BigRedS> I just thought of a few non-fiction  books about historical events and then figured that's probably not what you were after
[14:29] <mungojerry> what's a histoircal drama?
[14:30] <czajkowski> no idea
[14:30] <czajkowski> it's what i was told someone read
[14:30] <czajkowski> and wanted to get them stuff for xmas
[14:30] <czajkowski> have my shopping list all done out
[14:30] <czajkowski> now to find 24 pressies
[14:31]  * popey adds laneysocks to his amazon wishlist
[14:31] <Laney> :D
[14:32]  * popey needs more stuff for his wishlist what with xmas coming up 
[14:33] <popey> family ask me every year what I want, i usually say "nothing, i don't care2
[14:33] <popey> S/2/"
[14:33] <popey> but they don't listen :(
[14:33] <Daviey> poor popey
[14:33] <popey> wishlist is the only way I can avoid getting utter crap for xmas
[14:33] <popey> yeah, poor me
[14:33] <popey> buy me stuff Daviey
[14:34]  * popey adds this crap to his wishlist http://www.amazon.co.uk/JINX-Minecraft-Creeper-Bracelet/dp/B006ISV9KI/ref=pd_rhf_pe_s_cp_4
[14:34] <Daviey> popey: If i by you anything, i'll make it the most CoC breaking NSFW sick stuff i can.
[14:34] <mungojerry> czajkowski, i think i know what u mean
[14:34] <popey> OK!
[14:35] <mungojerry> like the other boleyn girl, etc?
[14:35] <popey> OMG! Minecraft socks! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Minecraft-Happy-Socks-3-Pack/dp/B007R3GK98/ref=pd_sim_sbs_k_h_b_cs_10
[14:35] <theopensourcerer> if anyone is interested in what I want - SINGLE MALT SCOTCH will do me nicely :-)
[14:35] <mungojerry> it's kind of fan fiction that is a "what if" kind of stuff that historians hate
[14:36] <czajkowski> I'm buying giant jenga for folks after seeing them at UDS!
[14:36] <theopensourcerer> My son asked his mum to knit him a Minecraft phone sock for Xmas
[14:37] <diplo> Anyone in here use puppet ?
[14:37] <mungojerry> diplo, yes
[14:37] <diplo> Just about to read up on it.. quick breif of what you use it for ?
[14:37] <diplo> if you don't mind ?
[14:38] <mungojerry> changing ntp conf settings, ldap config files, certain sy,bolic links for nfs mounts to work nicely, a fix for sound cards on certain optiplex models,
[14:38] <mungojerry> etc etc
[14:39] <mungojerry> anythinthat requires a local config
[14:39] <mungojerry> iptables,
[14:39] <czajkowski> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jeronimo-Giant-Wooden-Tower-Zipped/dp/B000PVXSTY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1352212743&sr=8-2  comes in a bag :D
[14:39] <czajkowski> very handy
[14:40] <diplo> I basically want a simple way of setting up our new erp software for clients and also to install os
[14:40] <diplo> Basically, RIS/WDS for linux
[14:40] <diplo> Which puppet isn't really I guess
[14:43] <diplo> Cobbler seems more what I need I think
[14:44] <mungojerry> i use kickstart + puppet
[14:44] <diplo> Will look at kickstart now thanks
[14:46] <mungojerry> if you wanna go the whole shebang then look into spacewalk
[14:46] <diplo> Just looking at MAAS as well
[14:47] <diplo> Will look at that as well thanks
[14:47] <X3N> popey: is ubuntu planet still updating?
[14:47]  * diplo seems to have lots of reading
[14:47] <popey> X3N, which one, normal or uk?
[14:47] <mungojerry> kickstart > imaging
[14:47] <X3N> popey: uk
[14:47]  * popey checks
[14:48] <diplo> mungojerry: The best one to use in your opinion ?
[14:48] <mungojerry> for which distro
[14:49] <mungojerry> smaller group of machines then kickstart, for larger infrastructure then spacewalk is very nice control centre for managing state of updates (like rhn)
[14:49] <diplo> Mainly CentOS, but Ubuntu/Debian boxes as well. Haven't decided what OS/machine it's running on yet but probably test with 12.04 on a machine I have here
[14:49] <mungojerry> puppet has a bit of learning curve, but it cross distro and your rules can depend on the distro
[14:49] <diplo> Well we are a 20 man team and have about 80 customers with ranges of machines / os's / specs
[14:50] <mungojerry> only ever done kickstart with rhel based machines
[14:50] <mungojerry> ubuntu did one called landcape but dunno any more about it
[14:50] <diplo> I basically want to automate the sysadmin guys setup from a 2 hour job to a pxe boot / install / nearly done
[14:50] <czajkowski> mungojerry: BigRedS found Philipa gregory stuff
[14:51] <czajkowski> this may work
[14:51] <mungojerry> my wife has read a few like that
[14:51] <mungojerry> she may have read the boleyn girl
[14:52] <diplo> What do you use as your kickstart server mungojerry
[14:52] <diplo> ah sorry you host on a rhel machine ?
[14:52] <mungojerry> yes, a SL machine
[14:52] <mungojerry> a VM with local mirrors
[14:52] <diplo> ubuntu docs seem to suck for kickstart, will read up rhel's :)
[14:53] <mungojerry> takes 20 mins to kickstart dekstops, 10 mins for servers, the desktop long bit is installing adobe apps
[14:55] <diplo> Do you deploy windows boxes as well or not an option under linux for that yet ?
[14:57] <mungojerry> we use FOG imaging for windows
[14:57] <mungojerry> although MS do much more advanced stuff like SCCM
[14:57] <diplo> hah, on there page looking at that now
[14:58] <diplo> Yea we used RIS, then moved to WDS for our Terminal Services servers at my last place
[14:58] <diplo> What made me think about this now
[14:58] <mungojerry> in theory if you don't have to change configs much, then you don't need to learn puppet, just put all config file changes in the postinstall section of kickstart
[14:59] <diplo> yeah it's a one off mainly for us, so basically want to install centos, our app, disable iptables / selinux and install a few dozen packages and that's it
[14:59] <diplo> I can do it, not including downloading in about 20-30 mins
[14:59] <diplo> But it can take the guys 3 hours + sometimes
[15:00] <diplo> And I thought, if i spend a fwe hours learning/setting it up after 1-2 installs it's covered my time already
[15:00] <mungojerry> i can send you my kickstart files sometime if you like
[15:00] <mungojerry> kickstart is pretty easy
[15:00] <mungojerry> puppet harder, but powerful
[15:00] <diplo> That would be great, was going to check out the anaconda-ks one from reading the centos docs
[15:00] <mungojerry> spacewalk longer still, but rewarding
[15:00] <mungojerry> ah, thats a v good place to start
[15:00] <diplo> oh yeah, not checked spacewalk yet
[15:00] <mungojerry> i have some cheeky things too
[15:01] <mungojerry> like php command in the kickstart to set your hostname based on the IP address
[15:01] <diplo> So spacewalk looks like landscape but free ?
[15:02] <mungojerry> yes, in fact it's a free RHN satellite
[15:03] <mungojerry> off to meeting now
[15:03] <mungojerry> then to bed with manflu
[15:03] <diplo> thanks very much for your input
[15:03] <diplo> appreciate it
[15:03] <mungojerry> no prob
[15:04] <mungojerry> ping me another day for ks configs if u need
[15:05] <diplo> kk ta
[15:28] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Tony] Four go mad in Dorset - http://tonywhitmore.co.uk/blog/2012/11/05/four-go-mad-in-dorset/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=four-go-mad-in-dorset
[15:28] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Jono Bacon] Unite - http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/11/06/unite/
[15:28] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Michael Wood] dawati-user-testing tool updates - http://www.michaelwood.me.uk/wordpress/2012/11/06/dawati-user-testing-tool-updates/
[15:29] <popey> X3N, what's your experience of vp8enc?
[15:30] <popey> X3N, bigwhale has had numerous reports (confirmed) that it eats memory, in kazam when recording the desktop
[15:30] <SuperMatt> huh, actually surprised to find that ossec doesn't have any checks specifically for someone searching for phpmyadmin
[15:32] <X3N> popey: haven't had any problems, generally pretty good performance/quality balance
[15:34] <Laney> did someone just fix planet u-uk?
[15:34] <popey> i did
[15:34] <popey> well, ran the job
[15:35] <Laney> wondered why i was seeing old jono posts
[15:35] <popey> the cron job was suspended because the job was failing
[15:35] <popey> X3N, i think the bug has been filed in upstream gstreamer
[15:36] <X3N> it is still in -bad so I wouldn't be surprised
[15:36] <popey> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687493
[15:36] <lubotu3`> Gnome bug 687493 in don't know "Huge memory leak using Python, Gtk+, GStreamer and vp8enc" [Major,Needinfo]
[15:39] <BigRedS> Hm. The raspberry pi's power lead looking exactly like a phone charger just proved to be a problem
[15:39] <SuperMatt> what did you fry?
[15:40] <BigRedS> No idea yet, I've left it off :)
[15:40] <BigRedS> No massive problem, but I might label whatever it gets as a permanent power suppl
[15:40] <BigRedS> y
[15:40] <SuperMatt> ah righty
[15:41] <BigRedS> it's just been at work for a bit so I can configure it before taking it to my dad's, gave it a massive list of stuff to install half an hour ago, presumably it's done by now
[15:41] <popey> X3N, any particular reason you're not extending kazam, but starting a new project?
[15:41] <X3N> popey: not getting a leak here, but haven't tried gst 1.0 yet still a wip in a branch
[15:42] <X3N> popey: this isn't designed for screencasting, more for user observation testing
[15:44] <popey> sure, but it wouldn't take much to add a new video capture device to kazam
[15:44] <popey> and the end result is the same, recording the screen and output from a camera
[15:45] <czajkowski> how do I find out the temperature that is currently on the machine ?
[15:45] <popey> czajkowski, xsensors?
[15:46] <czajkowski> popey: thank you
[15:47] <popey> X3N, anyway, be nice to have it packaged up
[15:47] <X3N> popey: we do other things like two pip webcams for recording a phone/person etc so I'm not sure it would fit with something like kazam, either way it's not a lot of code
[15:47] <popey> right
[15:47] <czajkowski> popey: http://twitpic.com/bav5je
[15:48] <popey> yeah, that's xsensors
[15:49] <czajkowski> thanks
[16:25] <ali1234> can i do a wubi install on ubuntu?
[16:25] <ali1234> i want to install 12.10 on the metal but i don't want to remove by 12.04 and i don't want to repartition
[16:27] <ali1234> i suppose i could delete a swap partition
[16:27] <ali1234> yeah that will work
[16:28] <shauno> lubi.sf.net could be interesting
[16:29] <shauno> (I'd personally just move swap to a swapfile and use the swap partition, simply because I understand what's going to happen.  but wubi for linux does exist)
[16:32] <ali1234> i have two swap partitions anyway
[16:32] <Daviey> i'd just resize the partition.. it's pretty safe these days.
[16:32] <ali1234> yeah the problem with that is then i have to resize it back
[16:32] <ali1234> and it is 600GB
[16:33] <ali1234> also it's 90% full
[16:34] <shauno> clean up some of that goat p^H .. err .. research, and you'll have more space for sideloading toys :)
[16:34] <ali1234> most of it is virtual machines
[16:34] <ali1234> however, i can't test the whitescreen bug in a VM
[16:34] <ali1234> and compiz developers have basically given up on 12.04
[16:35] <ali1234> they're now saying it's fixed in 12.10
[16:35] <ali1234> of course that's the exact same thing they said about 12.04
[18:14] <cliftonts> hi guys, who fancies a brain teaser?
[18:15] <cliftonts> well don't all rush at once! lol
[18:16] <popey> !ask
[18:16] <lubotu3`> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
[18:16] <cliftonts> right
[18:18] <cliftonts> I've got a spreadsheet where column A is loaded with ID numbers. There are 2 types of ID, some of each in this column and some of type 1 in column B. So I need to find a way to automatically swap them round if there is an entry in both columns.
[18:18] <cliftonts> I've searched google but nothing looks hopeful.
[18:20] <brunogirin> cliftonts: easiest way is to get the correct value in column C
[18:20] <brunogirin> something that says: if B is empty choose A otherwise choose B
[18:20] <cliftonts> I have model number and subcode (for different sizes, colours etc)
[18:21] <cliftonts> and some idiot has put model in column A except for when there's a subcode, then that goes in A and model goes in B
[18:21] <cliftonts> I need them both, but I need all the models in one and all the subcodes in the other
[18:22] <cliftonts> And I know very little about spreadsheets, I've never had to do something that determines if there is anything in a cell
[18:25] <brunogirin> cliftonts: in cell C1, put formula "=IF(B1="" ,A1,B1)" and in cell D1: =IF(B1="" ,"",A1); then copy down the columns
[18:26] <brunogirin> you should then have models and subcodes in the right order in columns C and D; you can then copy the values into a new spreadsheet
[18:29] <cliftonts> Got it, thanks. I'll have to make a note of that!
[18:29] <brunogirin> and tell the id10t not to do it again :-)
[18:31] <cliftonts> It's my supplier and they also do dumb things like a product with 3 sized all priced different are listed with 3 trade prices but all have the RRP of the most expensive
[18:31] <cliftonts> I've already been rarther vocal on the issue
[18:35] <brunogirin> what sort of things do they supply?
[18:36] <cliftonts> adult themed products
[18:38] <brunogirin> ah well, no industry is ever free from idiots!
[18:41] <cliftonts> very true
[18:45] <cliftonts> That's it! Finally everything is uploaded to my site in a sane manner. Thanks
[18:45] <ali1234> how do i install nvidia driver on 12.10??
[18:46] <popey> nvidia-current
[18:46] <popey> is the package name
[18:46] <popey> nvidia-current-updates also exists
[18:46] <ali1234> how do i do it using the unity dash?
[18:47] <popey> search for "software sources"
[18:47] <popey> it's in there on the last tab
[18:47] <ali1234> tab?
[18:47] <popey> of the software sources app
[18:48] <ali1234> so it is
[18:48] <ali1234> why didn't it offer to install it for me?
[18:48] <ali1234> do you seriously think nouveau is suitable for the majority of users now?
[18:48] <popey> me personally?
[18:48] <ali1234> no
[18:49] <ali1234> whoever made this decision
[18:49] <popey> which decision?
[18:49] <bashrc> nouveau is ok
[18:49] <popey> if you tick the "install non free stuff" on the installer, you get nvidia binary blobby AIUI
[18:49] <popey> certainly always used to
[18:49] <ali1234> the decision to not pop up a requester asking the user if they want the real driver for their hardware on first boot
[18:49] <bashrc> although not highly suitable for gaming
[18:49] <popey> i think as the move to software sources, the dialog changed
[18:50] <popey> so we no longer have the old dialog we used to
[18:50] <ali1234> the dialogue is gone
[18:50] <popey> "jockey"
[18:50] <ali1234> the "additional drivers" thing that displays it is no longer even on the CD
[18:50] <popey> ya, jockey
[18:50] <bashrc> right, I noticed that too
[18:50] <bashrc> had a helluva time installing proprietary drivers
[18:50] <ali1234> so, presumably that was a concious decision made by someone somewhere
[18:51] <ali1234> does that person think that nouveau is suitable for the majority of users? or do they think that the new method to install nvidia is just as simple as the old way?
[18:51] <popey> i suspect there was a decision made to migrate the tools, and a separate decision that we don't have time left in the cycle to make it auto start
[18:51] <popey> i dont think the thought process is as you characterise it
[18:51] <popey> davmor2 may know more
[18:51] <directhex> the new dialogue is nice, albeit in a dumb place
[18:52] <ali1234> yeah agreed
[18:52] <bashrc> lookup that hardware drivers package
[18:52] <popey> indeed
[18:52] <directhex> someone promised me an experimental high performance fglrx
[18:52] <bashrc> see what the discussion was
[18:52] <directhex> i await it waitilly!
[18:52] <directhex> i wait harder than i've ever waited before
[18:52] <ali1234> so do yu think i should go experimental or normal? which is more likely to work with compiz?
[18:53] <ali1234> also why are the options in the order they are in?
[18:54] <ali1234> i'm going with the *only* one that says it has actually been tested, nvidia-current
[18:54] <popey> yeah, we had to revert back
[18:54] <popey> hence the amusing version number
[18:54] <popey> nvidia-current | 304.51.really.304.43-0ubuntu1 | quantal/restricted | amd64, i386
[18:54] <popey> vs:-
[18:55] <popey> nvidia-current-updates | 304.51-0ubuntu1 | quantal/restricted | amd64, i386
[18:55] <ali1234> this fancy schmancy dialog doesn't display the version number, so i have no idea what you're talking about
[18:55] <popey> ah, more awesome than before then
[18:55] <ali1234> hah, that's how i should package compiz upstream
[18:56] <brunogirin> you may also want to consider this bug before using the proprietary driver: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-updates/+bug/1068341
[18:56] <ali1234> compiz 1.0-really-0.8
[18:56] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 1068341 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "No way to specify correct dependencies for dkms packages" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[18:56] <popey> :)
[18:56] <popey> its done like that because someone pushed 304.51 a bit early, still had some horrid bugs
[18:57] <directhex> flashplugin-nonfree | 10.0.1.218+10.0.0.525ubuntu1~hardy1+really9.0.124.0ubuntu2 | hardy-backports/multiverse | source, amd64, i386, lpia
[18:57] <popey> hmm, searching for jockey turns up interesting shopping results
[18:57] <directhex> version numbars!
[18:57] <ali1234> popey: did you see the fun stuff i found the other day?
[18:58] <popey> dunno, what was it relating to?
[18:58] <ali1234> try searching for cock a leekie soup
[18:58] <Unnheulu> How do I stop xchat auto-joining this channel?...
[18:58] <ali1234> it looks like it has been fixed now
[18:58] <bashrc> right click and remove from favourites
[18:59] <Unnheulu> And where is favourites?
[18:59] <ali1234> oh wait i turned of internet search
[18:59] <Unnheulu> I have disabled auto-join, and it still joins
[18:59] <popey> i see nothing untoward
[18:59] <directhex> ali1234, where do you turn that off?
[18:59] <bashrc> on the channel on the left hand side
[18:59] <ali1234> directhex: in system settings privacy panel
[18:59] <popey> dash -> privacy
[18:59] <Unnheulu> None of the options mention favourites
[19:00] <Unnheulu> And auto join on connect has been unticked
[19:00] <ali1234> popey: basically if you search "$swear" it filters but if you search "$swear " (with an extra space) then it does not filter anything
[19:00] <bashrc> there's a list of channels on the left hand side.  Right click on the one you want to remove from autostart and select "remove from favourites"
[19:00] <Unnheulu> It doesn't say favourites anywhere on right click.
[19:01] <bashrc> can you see the list of channels?
[19:01] <directhex> hm, couple of extra linux games have appeared in the steam cdr
[19:01] <directhex> currently 50 items in there
[19:01] <Unnheulu> Save Transcript -> Leave -> Close -> Join -> Auto-join on connect -> Show join/part messages -> Find -> Bans
[19:01] <AlanBell> ali1234: that is the intended behaviour
[19:01] <ali1234> AlanBell: perhaps, but in that case the intentions are bad
[19:01] <Unnheulu> Yes, I can see the list of channels, thus how I removed it from the auto-join list.
[19:01] <AlanBell> so that you can search for rude things if you want to
[19:01] <AlanBell> but you don't accidentally get rude things
[19:01] <directhex> oh
[19:02] <directhex> xchat-gnome not xchat
[19:02] <directhex> what a useful distrinction there is between those apps ¬_¬
[19:02] <ali1234> but you do accidentally get rude things, if you search for "cock a leekie" and you type slow
[19:02] <bashrc> heh
[19:02] <AlanBell> I think that is an edge case
[19:02] <bashrc> I'm on xchat rather than xchat-gnome
[19:02] <AlanBell> analyser was the search bug they were trying to fix
[19:02] <Unnheulu> From my experience they've been remarkably similar :/
[19:03] <AlanBell> without actually being censorious
[19:03] <Unnheulu> Either way, how do I disable auto-joining this channel?
[19:03] <ali1234> btw is the filter even open?
[19:03] <AlanBell> Unnheulu: I think there is an Ubuntu network in your networks list
[19:03] <ali1234> someone told me "patches welcome" last time i complained and it didn't occur to me until much later that it's not even open source
[19:03] <AlanBell> which autojoins #ubuntu-<countrycode>
[19:03] <AlanBell> ali1234: patches not welcome, that is server side closedness
[19:03] <ali1234> exactly
[19:04] <bashrc> xchat isn't open source?
[19:04] <AlanBell> bashrc: products.ubuntu.com isn't open source
[19:04] <bashrc> ok
[19:04] <Unnheulu> The network name is put as freenode...
[19:04]  * brobostigon thanks AlanBell for his response to the job, it is rare to get an email back, from an application. 
[19:04] <Unnheulu> (as opposed to ubuntu server as in old versions of ubuntu)
[19:05] <popey> I have to say that's probably the first time anyone has ever said "cock a leekie soup" to me online
[19:05] <popey> ever
[19:05] <AlanBell> brobostigon: thanks for applying
[19:06] <brobostigon> AlanBell: i would hope, because of what i have worked with, i can be useful in the future.
[19:06] <Unnheulu> So how can I stop it auto connecting? :/
[19:06] <AlanBell> possibly, we aim to grow bigger and better, there could be all sorts of stuff coming up eventually :)
[19:06] <brobostigon> :)
[19:06] <AlanBell> Unnheulu: which client is this? xchat-gnome?
[19:06] <Unnheulu> Yah
[19:07]  * AlanBell installs
[19:07]  * popey leaves for podcasting heaven
[19:07] <popey> i.e. tonys house
[19:15] <directhex> Unpacking steam (from Downloads/steam.deb) ...
[19:15] <Azelphur> directhex: slow, I already downloaded installed and logged in
[19:15] <Azelphur> and there's some python in here!
[19:15] <directhex> Azelphur, logged in successfully?
[19:16] <Azelphur> directhex: logged in and got kicked out again for not being part of the beta
[19:16] <Azelphur> :<
[19:16] <directhex> Azelphur, not just me then
[19:20] <directhex>  Maintainer: Valve Software LLC <ubuntu-support@valvesoftware.com>
[19:20] <directhex> huh
[19:29] <jacobw> awesome
[19:29] <brunogirin> does anybody know if there's a channel for ubuntu ppc?
[19:32] <Azelphur> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/November/2012-11-06-192223_1000x660_scrot.png screenshot of it running on my pc, btw :p
[19:32] <AlanBell> my whut meter just exploded http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/piece-cardboard-shaped-bit-like-iPhone-5-USED-/160916451185
[19:33] <brunogirin> AlanBell: I don't blame you!
[19:37] <ali1234> http://www.myfacewhen.net/view/4608-ew <- my face when i log in to my spam trap email account to see if i got a steam beta key and all i got was a message from nokia telling me to preorder my lumia 820 now
[19:41] <Azelphur> ali1234: rofl
[19:43] <ali1234> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20217901 HAHAHAHAHA
[19:46] <directhex> ali1234,  http://cdn.grumpycats.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Nov-4v3-625x416.jpg ?
[19:46] <ali1234> haha
[19:46] <ali1234> that cat sure is grumpy looking
[19:48] <Azelphur> successfully exploited steam beta client
[19:48] <Azelphur> I'm in
[19:48] <Azelphur> :P
[19:48] <ali1234> nice one
[19:48] <Azelphur> chatting in steam chat right now using it lol
[19:48] <directhex> Azelphur, ;o
[19:48] <directhex> hax!
[19:49] <ali1234> considering valve's past practices, aren't you worried they will perma ban you?
[19:50]  * Azelphur shrugs
[19:50] <Azelphur> lol the stock UI doesn't wanna let me install tf2 either
[19:53] <directhex> Azelphur, you don't have the rights to it
[19:54] <Azelphur> true
[19:54] <Azelphur> directhex: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/November/2012-11-06-195157_1370x697_scrot.png but I'm in, anyway
[19:55] <directhex> Azelphur, you have access to appid 520 (tf2 beta) but not the linux binaries (527)
[19:55] <directhex> also, you've got, like, no games
[19:55] <Azelphur> ah
[19:56] <Azelphur> maybe I can install that
[19:56] <Azelphur> nope, I can't
[19:56] <Azelphur> directhex: I'm not actually in the beta, I just downloaded the .deb and found a bypass
[19:56] <Azelphur> :P
[19:57] <directhex> Azelphur, that's the point, you can install 520, but it depends on 527 which you don't have access to
[19:57] <Azelphur> directhex: aww :(
[19:57] <ali1234> it is a DRM system after all
[19:57] <Azelphur> valve need to hurry up and put me in this beta
[20:01] <marsilainen> hi all - I'm guessing there are lots of options for this, but just wondering if someone has a recommendation - I'd like to rip the "main" video of a DVD to MPEG (for viewing on a tablet); any suggestions?
[20:01] <ali1234> handbrake
[20:01] <ali1234> !handbrake
[20:01] <lubotu3`> handbrake is a an open-source, GPL-licensed, multiplatform, multithreaded video transcoder, available for MacOS X, Linux and Windows. - http://handbrake.fr
[20:02] <Azelphur> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2012/November/2012-11-06-195157_1370x697_scrot.png
[20:02] <Azelphur> :D
[20:02] <Azelphur> oh whoops that's the same one I posted earlier
[20:02] <marsilainen> ali1234: thanks, I'll take a look
[20:10] <directhex> http://store.steampowered.com/news/9289/
[20:12] <directhex> http://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/0/882965118606625844/ - don't have an email? you're not in.
[20:14] <oimon> who do we thank for steam (and ultimately games) coming to ubuntu? i think valve, canonical, humble indie bundle, and microsoft :D
[20:15] <directhex> humble, first and foremost, in my analysis
[20:18] <oimon> was w8 a trigger though?
[20:19] <oimon> humble provided belief/financial viability for sure
[20:19] <directhex> was w8 a trigger................. a little. but less than people think
[20:20] <directhex> oh, and you missed kickstarter and unity corp from your list. they're also instrumental in making linux appear to be a very desirable market to game devs. but humble deserves, like, 90% of the credit
[20:21] <AlanBell> how can I get pulse audio to play a microphone (bluetooth headset) out through speakers?
[20:23] <directhex> hit it with a spoon until it works
[20:25] <AlanBell> pacat -r --latency-msec=1 -d  bluez_source.91_1C_11_01_FC_9A | pacat -p --latency-msec=1 -d  alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo
[20:25] <AlanBell> that would appear to be the right answer
[20:26] <AlanBell> too much latency
[20:28] <Azelphur> popey: I didn't get into the beta, I'm a sad panda now :(
[20:28] <oimon> canonical really need to ensure the experience with steam and ubuntu out of the box is great though
[20:29] <oimon> linux on the desktop may be won and lost on the first impressions of teenagers , and not won back for years, if at all
[20:30] <popey> Azelphur, awwww
[20:30] <popey> oimon, we are working with valve very closely on that
[20:30] <popey> new drivers etc
[20:30] <jacobw> lol
[20:30] <oimon> and compiz ?
[20:30] <popey> we had loads of sessions at UDS about it
[20:30] <oimon> :D
[20:30] <Azelphur> popey: you should bug valve people and make them put me in the beta? :D
[20:30] <popey> people from Valve and Unity3D were there
[20:31] <oimon> i'm sure the importance of it is not understated by canonical
[20:31] <oimon> among their employees
[20:31] <Azelphur> I sort of got it running anyway, just can't run TF2 since I'm not actually in the beta, I can use the client and friends and stuff though
[20:31] <Azelphur> sort of victory \o/
[20:32] <jacobw> i thought that compiz impacted opengl performance?
[20:33] <bashrc> For 13.04 I think they should concentrate upon getting the graphics driver installation experience as slick and seamless as possible.  That's is if they want Ubuntu to be usable by the average person for gaming.
[20:34] <bashrc> Currently the graphics driver installation procedure in 12.10 is horrible, and the archetypal average user is likely to just give up
[20:36] <oimon> did it break since 12.04? 12.04 is fine for me
[20:40] <bashrc> yes
[20:41] <d0m> woohoo, finally fixed the sed line for my temperature probe, munin rocks :D
[20:41] <bashrc> in the olden days (like 12.04) after installation you would get the hardware devices thing show up.  Click to install the proprietary driver.  Wait to download.  Job done.
[20:43] <oimon> what now?
[20:43] <oimon> this is the first time in about 6 years i haven't run a beta of the new release, or tried the release yet
[20:46] <bashrc> ideally all the graphics drivers would be open source, but we're not quite in that world yet
[20:51] <brobostigon> how would you measure lag within a connection, yes, tracerouter and pink works, but something closer. ?
[20:52] <brobostigon> traceroute*
[20:52] <ali1234> pink?
[20:52] <brobostigon> ?
[20:52] <ali1234> they all work the same wy
[20:52] <ali1234> so what are you trying to measure exactly?
[20:53] <jacobw> oimon: precise works for you?
[20:53] <ali1234> lag is a function of latency and packet loss
[20:54] <ali1234> oimon: not only that but if you do figure out how to install proprietary graphics drivers there is a bug that makes it not work when you reboot
[20:54] <brobostigon> ali1234: i am trying to measure the delay, between me at home, on adsl, and my vps. nominally knowing, on my vps end, basically packaet loss doesnt happen.
[20:54] <ali1234> you get a desktop wallpaper and nothing else
[20:54] <ali1234> to fix it you have to go to a console and run obscure commands
[20:54] <d0m> When I left Vodafone, they tried to persuade me that data caps are a good thing because it speeds up the network when people aren't browsing youtube as much.
[20:54] <ali1234> this affects both nvidia and ATI
[20:54] <oimon> 12,04 was fine, why would it have been allowed to break?
[20:54] <ali1234> oimon: good question
[20:55] <oimon> is it really as bad as you guys say?
[20:55] <jacobw> ha
[20:55] <ali1234> it works fine once you find where the option has been hidden, and fix the trivial showstopper
[20:55] <oimon> the blogs would be going crazy
[20:55] <brobostigon> ali1234: ie, i am trying to work out the lag and packet loss on our adsl.
[20:55] <jacobw> 'why would it have been allowed to break'
[20:55] <ali1234> brobostigon: then mtr is what you need
[20:55] <oimon> ali1234: whats the showstopper for future ref?
[20:56] <oimon> sync to vblank?
[20:56] <brobostigon> ali1234: ok, let me learn.
[20:56] <jacobw> in the era of 'new desktops' anything can break for any reason
[20:56] <ali1234> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-updates/+bug/1068341
[20:56] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 1068341 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "No way to specify correct dependencies for dkms packages" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[20:56] <jacobw> why is window management broken? because it's pretty
[20:56] <jacobw> why does it take > 3 seconds to switch between windows? because it's pretty
[20:57] <ali1234> brobostigon: mtr is a cross between traceroute and ping which pings every hop and shows latency and packet loss to that hop
[20:58] <brobostigon> ali1234: ah, that sounds like the bill. yes.
[21:00] <ali1234> oimon: i suspect the reason the blogs aren't going crazy is because the kind of people who write ranty blogs have not bothered upgrading
[21:00] <oimon> ah nice, get your pidgin conversation window on the other desktop and unity won't let you switch to it via the launcher
[21:00] <brobostigon> very weord results.
[21:00] <brobostigon> weird*
[21:01] <oimon> that bug is bad
[21:01] <ali1234> i had heard of the problems with proprietary drivers but i didn't experience it until today, and i only installed 12.10 to test a bug
[21:01] <oimon> why no fix?
[21:02] <ali1234> because other things are more important
[21:02] <ali1234> like integrated amazon search results
[21:02] <oimon> UDS after release is bad because everyone has downtime while users squiirm
[21:03] <oimon> out of the door =/= tools down
[21:03] <ali1234> sure it does
[21:04] <ali1234> even if it's a LTS release the chances of a SRU are small unless the bug is so trivial that nobody even noticed it was broken
[21:04] <ali1234> and if it's a canonical project you can forget it because they don't have stable branches
[21:12] <ali1234> my computer is 3 years old and the hard drive has a power on time of 2 years 9 months, with 217 power cycles, of which 80 were "emergency"
[21:13] <ali1234> so i have an average uptime of 4 days and 36% of restarts were due to the machine crashing so bad i had to turn it off
[21:13] <ali1234> or power cuts but i can only remember two of those
[21:32] <jacobw> ali1234: running ubuntu?
[21:32] <ali1234> yes
[21:37] <directhex> Azelphur, http://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/12qs6z/steam_for_linux_its_here_deb_in_the_link/c6xf19p
[21:38] <directhex> can't paste into beta :)
[21:38] <Azelphur> directhex: fun
[21:39] <Azelphur> directhex: you could always just come over to the other side of the relay :P
[21:43] <ali1234> how did they manage to make games not work that already have linux ports?
[21:44] <ali1234> fair enough you've hacked it, but still
[21:45] <ali1234> also 12.04 or 12.10?
[21:45] <Azelphur> 12.04
[21:45] <directhex> 12.10 64-bit
[21:45] <directhex> officially they support 12.04 32-bit
[21:45] <directhex> some of the issues i've noted are due to 32/64 bit errors
[21:47] <popey> 64-bit 12.04 works
[21:47] <popey> but the indicator thing doesn't appear
[21:48] <ali1234> it depends on dpkg?
[21:48] <popey> ?
[21:48] <ali1234> are they actually packaging things properly ?
[21:48] <directhex> yeah, it uses dpkg in a bunch of places
[21:48] <directhex> like to install deps
[21:48] <ali1234> awesome
[21:48] <ali1234> take that RPM fanboys
[21:48] <directhex> BUT there are still errors in packaging
[21:48] <popey> yeah, its not perfect
[21:49] <ali1234> well even canonical can't package this stuff right so....... colour me entirely unsurprised?
[21:49] <directhex> of course, i'm one of the half dozen most knowledgeable people for fixing up spacechem, but i have no access to the bug reporting forum :D
[21:49] <ali1234> yes, and the same goes for those packages in ubuntu software center unfortunately
[21:52] <ali1234> lol it puts an icon on your desktop
[21:52] <ali1234> what is this, windows 95?
[21:55] <ali1234> hmm how come it shows portal but not tf2 under "all games"
[21:55] <ali1234> obviously it shows nothing under linux games
[21:57] <ali1234> oh fun it's one of those customized-everything apps that manages it's own drawing and screen position
[21:57] <ali1234> drag it around with the title bar and the mouse pointer goes out of sync with the window
[21:57] <ali1234> mouse pointer hits the edge of the screen while the main window is still somewhere in the middle
[21:59] <directhex> "free to play" games aren't shown under "all games" unless you have them installed unless you purchased them when they weren't free to play
[22:00] <ali1234> i "purchased" portal when it was on special offer i guess that's why
[22:00] <ali1234> special offer ie free
[22:00] <ali1234> so that makes perfect sense
[22:17] <ali1234> what exactly is the point of the launchpad webapp? what does it do other than put a shortcut to launchpad?
[22:19] <AlanBell> HUD integration for various things
[22:20] <ali1234> oh, like what?
[22:20] <AlanBell> bugs, project menu and global actions apparently
[22:20] <ali1234> i totally forgot the hud even exists
[22:20] <ali1234> hud for bugs?
[22:20] <ali1234> how do i use it?
[22:20] <AlanBell> /usr/share/unity-webapps/userscripts/unity-webapps-launchpad/Launchpad.user.js
[22:21] <AlanBell> hmm, it doesn't appear to do much for me
[22:22] <AlanBell> webapps don't give much feedback to indicate they are working
[22:22] <ali1234> doesn't seem to work here either
[22:23] <AlanBell> I did some integration with openERP and the first thing that does is a notification to say that it is working, and it prints some stuff to the console so you can see it in firebug
[22:23] <ali1234> it's kind of annoying that every page i go to wants to add an icon on the launcher now
[22:23] <ali1234> and doesn't seem to do anything else
[22:24] <AlanBell> oh, my mistake it isn't adding HUD items, it is adding launcher actions
[22:24] <ali1234> as in right click?
[22:25] <AlanBell> yeah, I had oodles of them a second ago and now they are gone
[22:25] <ali1234> yeah same here
[22:25] <ali1234> it seems to be just adding a random selection of things i've looked at recently
[22:26] <AlanBell> yeah, I can't fathom what it has done either
[22:30] <AlanBell> the content of the list varies fairly randomly according to what type of page you are on
[22:32] <ali1234> maybe it makes more sense if you're a project maintainer?
[22:33] <AlanBell> It couldn't make much less sense
[22:34] <AlanBell> I can't figure out from the code how it is doing what it is doing
[22:37] <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/webapps-applications
[22:37] <AlanBell> not sure what to file as a bug really
[22:38] <AlanBell> "normally fairly clueful people can't figure out what on earth this webapp does, or is supposed to do"
[22:41] <brunogirin> AlanBell: sounds like a fair bug description
[22:46] <AlanBell> Bug #1075765
[22:46] <lubotu3`> Launchpad bug 1075765 in WebApps: Applications "normally fairly clueful people can't figure out what on earth the launchpad webapp does, or is supposed to do" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1075765
[22:49] <AlanBell> it is like so much stuff that gets introduced, it is so puzzling you can't even decide if it is broken or just designed by someone who is a little bit strange
[22:56] <dogmatic69> anyone know why IMAP does not always return the emails?
[22:57] <dogmatic69> I wrote some code to get emails and it works +- 50% of the time.
[23:01] <ali1234> dogmatic69: need more info to debug that
[23:02] <dogmatic69> ali1234: I am using sockets on php. Do for eg: socket_write('A0010 FETCH 1 ...') then socket_read()
[23:02] <dogmatic69> not the exact method names, but you get the idea.
[23:03] <dogmatic69> could the imap server require a delay?
[23:06] <ali1234> i doubt it
[23:06] <ali1234> probably you have a bug in your socket code
[23:07] <ali1234> when you say it doesn't return the emails what exactly do you mean?
[23:07] <dogmatic69> maybe. but strange that it works sometimes.
[23:07] <dogmatic69> one second..
[23:07] <ali1234> does it always return the same ones?
[23:07] <ali1234> does it fail to return headers or message bodies?
[23:08] <ali1234> if you have 10 emails does it return 5 of them?
[23:08] <dogmatic69> it will return something like the following (\n is a literal line):
[23:08] <ali1234> or does it sometimes return all and sometimes none?
[23:08] <ali1234> if none, does it crash or just return nothing?
[23:08] <dogmatic69> A0005 THE COMMAND\n\nA0005 OK\n
[23:08] <ali1234> is it returning only unread?
[23:08] <ali1234> i don't know IMAP protocol so there's no point showing me that stuff
[23:08] <dogmatic69> instead of A0005 THE COMMAND\n.. all the email details ...\nA0005 OK\n
[23:09] <dogmatic69> well it has the imap wrapper, but not the email
[23:09] <ali1234> do you always get the same result for a given mailbox contents?
[23:10] <dogmatic69> no. The mail box is constant right. It has a few emails and nothing new coming in...
[23:10] <dogmatic69> sometimes the code will get the mails. other times not
[23:11] <dogmatic69> and this is the raw socket read I am talking about.
[23:11] <ali1234> can you post the code?
[23:12] <ali1234> is it huge?
[23:13] <dogmatic69> its quite large. class hierarchy is ImapSocket -> EmailSocket -> CakeSocket -> php socket
[23:13] <ali1234> hmm
[23:13] <ali1234> gonna be hard for me to run it then
[23:13] <dogmatic69> I think the responses do not go in order...
[23:14] <ali1234> probably
[23:14] <dogmatic69> ye, it is not a stand alone script.
[23:14] <ali1234> can you show some actual output, with private stuff censored?
[23:16] <ali1234> have you read the IMAP RFC?
[23:16] <ali1234> have you dumped the traffic with wireshark to see what is really happening?
[23:17] <dogmatic69> I have been reading the RFC plenty
[23:17] <dogmatic69> http://bin.cakephp.org/view/1042793680
[23:17] <dogmatic69> It is not in order. I recall reading something like 'dont expect it to be in order'
[23:18] <dogmatic69> you can see 'Write: A00x' and then the read is A00y
[23:18] <dogmatic69> I will have to buffer this stuff somehow
[23:30] <ali1234> IMAP server might be rate limited
[23:32] <dogmatic69> I would get a warning / error about that
[23:34] <ali1234> i dunno then. look at wireshark dump and identify the exact point where you think the server is doing something out of spec
[23:34] <ali1234> at that point either you or the server did something wrong
[23:45] <dogmatic69> ali1234: juggled some code around, done while(!$theDataIWant) {NOOP ... read()}
[23:45] <dogmatic69> seems to do better now.
[23:45] <ali1234> yeah
[23:46] <dogmatic69> but 100 noop's before the data comes :/
[23:46] <dogmatic69> will add a small delay also I think.
[23:46] <dogmatic69> sometimes its instant. So the email was 'working' when the data returned in exactly the correct order.
[23:55] <salzbrezelnnnnn> #politics
[23:57] <ali1234> dogmatic69: yeah, you have to deal with delays and keep your protocol in sync. don't send until you got what you expected or after a reasonable timeout
[23:57] <ali1234> this is why not many people implement their own sockets code any more
[23:57] <dogmatic69> pop3 was relatively easy.
[23:58] <dogmatic69> I am building an open source content management framework so relying on servers having the php imap extension is not available.
[23:58] <dogmatic69> its also pretty crap